4557  What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:21:04 -0400
From: "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: tango-l@mit.edu

I'm curious, are there a lot of people (outside of BsAs) whose only real
dance experience is tango?

To the instructors out there, how many beginner students do you get who are
new to dancing? From my limited observation, it seems fairly common.
Sometimes there even seems to be bias against people who have experience in
other dance, particularly ballroom. It would seem difficult to me to try
to take someone who has no concept of dancing and begin teaching them
Argentine Tango, a dance full of subtleties, one that is very demanding of
the elements of embrace, lead, and follow and relies heavily on a sense of
musicality. It seems to me a little like trying to learn to drive a car in
a Formula 1 racer.

How much time is spent just teaching beginners how to dance before they can
start tango? Has anyone ever seen beginner AT for non-dancers offered
separately from AT for dancers?

I am continually amused and amazed at the number of tango steps being
taught. Expert instructors offer classes in steps that no one has ever
heard of (I sometimes suspect because they just made them up). I know a
couple of very honest swing instructors who tell students that as long as
the students have money, they have steps.

How many steps do you really need to know for a nice tango? From my
limited personal observation of those superb old milongueros in BsAs, I
would guess each one uses maybe 10 (+/-) fairly simple steps, that they
have made distinctly their own, with a few variations and a surprise thrown
in every now and then. And then they use those few steps with unparalleled
grace and musicality. From the ladies who have danced with them, am I far
off? Sometimes I think we tourists go to BsAs and see 50 milongueros each
dancing their 10 steps and surmise we need to learn 500 steps before we can
dance like them.

The same honest swing instructors I know tell students that they don?t
learn to dance in class, they learn on the floor. In every class they tell
students where upcoming dances are in the area. They tell them that after
8 weeks of classes that they will be better than most other dancers on the
floor (and they are about right), to just go out and dance. Yes, I
understand swing is considerably different than tango, but how many tango
teachers have you heard telling students anything close, that they didn?t
need any more lessons to have a good time, that what they really need is to
just go out and dance?

How many professional tango students have you seen? You know the ones, who
are in every class, every workshop, but are almost never seen at a milonga.
What is going on with those people? Hasn?t anyone ever told them that they
will never learn all there is about tango, they will never learn all of the
steps, that tango is not an academic exercise but rather its? about
enjoying a magical dance around the floor? It?s not about the quantity of
steps anyone knows but about the quality of the ones you do know, and that
only comes from doing them about 500 times (as a start).

There is also a lot of talk about wanting/needing to dance with someone of
your ?level.? Personally, just give me a woman who can follow, walk, has a
concept of the cross and ocho, and can manage basic turns to the right and
left. But mostly, mostly, mostly, just give me a woman who is simply
interested in enjoying three minutes of the closeness, passion, and
sensuality of a tango.

WBSmith


mail2web - Check your email from the web at
https://mail2web.com/ .

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:12:42 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: tango-l@mit.edu

"There is also a lot of talk about wanting/needing to dance with someone of
your level. Personally, just give me a woman who can follow, walk, has a
concept of the cross and ocho, and can manage basic turns to the right and
left. But mostly, mostly, mostly, just give me a woman who is simply
interested in enjoying three minutes of the closeness, passion, and
sensuality of a tango. "

If only all felt that way but it's not the case. Since it's bad protocol to
teach a woman how to do steps at a Milonga, she is left with no recourse but
to learn from from a teacher or someone else who has the time and patience
to teach on their own at practicas. Many times at Milongas, men try to lead
me into doing steps with which I have no familiarity or have yet to learn.

Sometimes people have fun doing more elaborate or complex sequences of moves
and that's their business - if they are going to take it upon themselves to
teach or learn it - why not?

Does one really have to have background in dance in order to be a good tango
dancer? I don't know, I've seen many many good dancers at clubs and other
venues who had never taken a class in their life. So, either you've got an
innate sense for dance and musicality or you don't despite if you had
training or not.

Personally, I am going to keep taking classes until I've learned all the
moves that leaders tend to do at Milongas.

Caroline

Play Q6 for your chance to WIN great prizes.
https://q6trivia.imagine-live.com/enca/landing

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 01:37:29 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>

> If only all felt that way but it's not the case. Since it's bad protocol

to

> teach a woman how to do steps at a Milonga, she is left with no recourse

but

> to learn from from a teacher or someone else who has the time and patience
> to teach on their own at practicas. Many times at Milongas, men try to

lead

> me into doing steps with which I have no familiarity or have yet to learn.

This is a typical problem of a female beginner of tango. But you will see
that once you have acquired not the steps, but rather the BODY of a tango
dancer, with strong achilles tendons, balanced ankles on your high heels,
strength around the middle of your body, a proper axis down the length of
your body, and are able to hold your weight at a constant well balanced
angle above the balls of your feet in connection with the man,that you don't
need to know more than 2/3 or so of the moves the man leads you into. Your
body will just follow the rest and figure them out on it's own.
Someone said, there are just four basic moves in tango: a step to the front,
to the side, the back and a pivot. A woman takes it one step at a time, and
once you know how to do that, and have a man who leads clearly and properly,
the rest is easy.
But let me tell you, building up the muscles and tendons of a tango dancer
takes at least a year.

That is why technique classes are so important for women. All this walking
exercise, ochos against the wall, boleos against the wall, adornos against
the wall, it has a purpose... Lasrt week Laura here led a milonga class that
consisted of drills only. Walking alone, walking in couples...Steps alone,
steps in couples.. I was bored to pieces,but she said, there are some
beginners in that class who have never danced tango before, and they need to
learn those simple moves. In milonga, connection is everything.

>
> Sometimes people have fun doing more elaborate or complex sequences of

moves

> and that's their business - if they are going to take it upon themselves

to

> teach or learn it - why not?

Well, not everyone is a beginner.

>
> Does one really have to have background in dance in order to be a good

tango

> dancer? I don't know, I've seen many many good dancers at clubs and other
> venues who had never taken a class in their life. So, either you've got an
> innate sense for dance and musicality or you don't despite if you had
> training or not.

Tango is not something you can learn from an "innate sense", and I very much
doubt that you found "many many good dancers who have never taken a class in
their life" on the tango floor. This is a myth, and it may have worked in
the 40ies when men practised with each other before they were let loose on
the women but not now. But to become a tango dancer, yes, having done other
dances or certain sports helps. Whether that be salsa, waltz, ballet,
flamenco, karate, judo or skiiing.

>
> Personally, I am going to keep taking classes until I've learned all the
> moves that leaders tend to do at Milongas.

Yes. And you should also learn the moves that women do at the milongas.
Women have their own moves, you know, and they are often quite different
from the men's, even though they are usually led. But leave the adornos til
the second year, they just get in the way otherwise.

Best
Astrid

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:19:41 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp, tango-l@mit.edu

Hi astrid.

"This is a typical problem of a female beginner of tango. But you will see
that once you have acquired not the steps, but rather the BODY of a tango
dancer...A woman takes it one step at a time, and
once you know how to do that, and have a man who leads clearly and properly,
the rest is easy.
But let me tell you, building up the muscles and tendons of a tango dancer
takes at least a year....That is why technique classes are so important for
women. ..... In milonga, connection is everything."

Tell me about it! I'm taking an techniques class for women this September -
I do need stronger muscles and a better sense of axis/balance. But I still
think there are a few steps I need to pick up - I'm currently at
Intermediate Level 1 so have a little ways to go yet in terms of tango
steps.


>
> Sometimes people have fun doing more elaborate or complex sequences of
moves
> and that's their business - if they are going to take it upon themselves
to
> teach or learn it - why not?

Well, not everyone is a beginner.

Oh, I know but I wasn't talking about beginners. I was assuming the guy who
brought this subject up was talking about how many steps does it take to
tango - I'm not sure if he's refering to beginners only.

>
> Does one really have to have background in dance in order to be a good
tango
> dancer? I don't know, I've seen many many good dancers at clubs and other
> venues who had never taken a class in their life. So, either you've got
an
> innate sense for dance and musicality or you don't despite if you had
> training or not.

"Tango is not something you can learn from an "innate sense", and I very
much
doubt that you found "many many good dancers who have never taken a class in
their life" on the tango floor. This is a myth"

I wasn't talking about tango dancers, I was refering to dancers in general
which is why I mentioned clubs and other venues - but are you sure that one
does not need an innate sense of dancing movement and musicality to dance
well? I find there seems to be two classes of tango dancers, those who focus
on the steps without regard to music and those who focus on dancing to the
music and that the latter provides a better experience, at least for me
anyways. Maybe the former hadn't had yet much experience. I don't know, I
didn't ask them but I do think there's a distinct difference between those
who dance because they're naturally good at it and those who seem to focus
more on going from point a to point b without taking actual dancing into
consideration.

>
> Personally, I am going to keep taking classes until I've learned all the
> moves that leaders tend to do at Milongas.

Yes. And you should also learn the moves that women do at the milongas.
Women have their own moves, you know, and they are often quite different
from the men's, even though they are usually led. But leave the adornos til
the second year, they just get in the way otherwise.

Ok, I will try to take that advice - but it's hard to not want to learn it
right away since at Milongas, leaders keep trying to get me to do them and
it's embarrassing when I stand there clueless as to what it is exactly they
are expecting me to do. For example, when they pivot me on the spot as an
attempt to get me to kick up my left foot behind me then crossing the same
left foot over my right knee down to my right foot as I go into a cross -
know what I mean? That's the kind of leading I keep getting at Milongas and
I feel like a clod for not doing them. If no one teaches me how and I take
your advice to wait a year, then I'm doomed to another year of
self-humiliation at Milongas.

Caroline

Play Q6 for your chance to WIN great prizes.
https://q6trivia.imagine-live.com/enca/landing

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 02:43:25 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>


That is why technique classes are so important for

> women. ..... In milonga, connection is everything."
>
> Tell me about it! I'm taking an techniques class for women this

September -

> I do need stronger muscles and a better sense of axis/balance. But I still
> think there are a few steps I need to pick up - I'm currently at
> Intermediate Level 1 so have a little ways to go yet in terms of tango
> steps.

Yes, absolutely. I don't believe in this "take 3 months or less of tango
classes and then go to milongas only" concept. Most of these people end up
being a nuisance to the other dancers. (sorry, guys...) I have been dancing
for over 7 years and I still take classes sometimes. Practicas are great,
too. Because people are not focused on what they are wearing, who has the
deepest neck lines, who is looking the coolest etc., but they come just to
dance, in a more relaxed atmosphere. And are more forgiving if you make
mistakes. And the lights are on and there is more room on the dance floor,
so you can see what you and other people are doing. And I can see the men at
the other end of the room and practise the cabeceo... My sight is not
blocked by umpteen couples on the floor, some of them bumping into each
other, on a bad day.

>
> I wasn't talking about tango dancers, I was refering to dancers in general
> which is why I mentioned clubs and other venues - but are you sure that

one

> does not need an innate sense of dancing movement and musicality to dance
> well?

Frankly, I don't know. I have listened to music all my life and started
dancing at the age of 14. So whether that sense of musicality and movement
can be developed later in life or not, I really don't know. But I think, it
is never wrong to run tango CDs on your car audio while you are driving,
play tango while you are washing the dishes... I tend to put on music I like
after I have brushed my teeth and maybe dressed myself in the morning, and
lately, breakfast is always eaten at a delay because I can't help dancing
around the dining table before I sit down if the music is playing . I am
sure, you can develop SOME sense that way...
I hear that professional stage dancers start their day by practising their
tango walk, no matter where they are. Hosts in other countries have the
visiting teacher walking up and down in their living room for a long time in
the morning...
I can tell almost immediately if someone has a sense of music or not when I
dance with him for the first time. And if it is a beginner who does, I make
sure that I dance with him more often til he gets better, because he has
potential... And true, men who don't have a sense of music are a drag to
dance with.

I find there seems to be two classes of tango dancers, those who focus

> on the steps without regard to music and those who focus on dancing to the
> music and that the latter provides a better experience, at least for me
> anyways.

There are also two kinds of tango teachers: those who teach with music, and
those teach without.

I do think there's a distinct difference between those

> who dance because they're naturally good at it and those who seem to focus
> more on going from point a to point b without taking actual dancing into
> consideration.

Yes, you are right. Good description. Typical exemple: you are dancing to a
fast, flowing tango valse, and in the middle of a swinging passage in the
music the guy suddenly stops, does a parada and makes you step over his
foot. Just because this is one of the steps he learned. In my eyes, this is
a dead give away of a lack of musicality. Paradas should be banned
altogether from valse until one is able to dance them really fast and
smoothly.

>

leave the adornos til

> the second year, they just get in the way otherwise.
>
> Ok, I will try to take that advice - but it's hard to not want to learn it
> right away since at Milongas, leaders keep trying to get me to do them and
> it's embarrassing when I stand there clueless as to what it is exactly

they

> are expecting me to do. For example, when they pivot me on the spot as an
> attempt to get me to kick up my left foot behind me then crossing the same
> left foot over my right knee down to my right foot as I go into a cross -
> know what I mean?

This is a boleo.

That's the kind of leading I keep getting at Milongas and

> I feel like a clod for not doing them. If no one teaches me how and I take
> your advice to wait a year, then I'm doomed to another year of
> self-humiliation at Milongas.

A boleo is one of the more advanced moves for a woman. And it is not really
an adorno, it can be one of the steps, in my opinion. You can start by
practising them against the wall maybe 6 months into your tango dancing. Ask
your teacher how to do this. It is basically just a variation from
practising the backward and forward ochos. This does not mean you will be
able to follow a lead for a boleo. You have to learn to stand on one leg
first, and pivot on it too. Not easy. You have to have enough tone in your
back to respond to that twisted fast lead. AND last but not least, you need
a man who knows how to lead a boleo ! Because this is not an easy step to
lead. After I danced for a year, and nobody had ever led me into a boleo (my
teacher did not believe in ganchos and such) we got a new man in our class.
I danced with him, we were walking down the length of the floor together,
and suddenly- wiggle, snap ! - there was my boleo. Produced by him, without
me even thinking about it.

>

keep up the good work
Astrid

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:30:07 +0100 (BST)
From: Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI <arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: tangosmith@cox.net, tango-l@mit.edu


--- "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net> wrote:

> I'm curious, are there a lot of people (outside of
> BsAs) whose only real
> dance experience is tango?

I did Russian Ballet for 6 months when I was 7; that
torture put me off any kind of dancing for the
following 40 years. I came to tango with 2 left feet
some thirteen years ago and am still finding out that
I have a hell of a lot to learn, but I feel no
compulsion to learn any other dance.

>
> To the instructors out there, how many beginner
> students do you get who are
> new to dancing? From my limited observation, it
> seems fairly common.
> Sometimes there even seems to be bias against people
> who have experience in
> other dance, particularly ballroom.

I have now been teaching tango for around 9 years and
have found empirically that the most gifted tango
students were those who had no previous dancing
experience, the basic reason being that they bring no
bad habits. The most difficult ones have been ballroom
dancers, with their compulsive hyperlordosis, begging
for a slipped disc. Yes, the best background is to
know how to walk....

Cheers,

Andy.


Andrew W. RYSER SZYMA?SKI,
23b All Saints Road,
London, W11 1HE,
07944 128 739.

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 04:04:28 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

> I'm curious, are there a lot of people (outside of
> BsAs) whose only real
> dance experience is tango?

I did Russian Ballet for 6 months when I was 7; that
torture put me off any kind of dancing for the
following 40 years.

I think, I got about 6 months of ballet lessons when I was five and then
that school went out of business. I felt no interest to continue elsewhere
and noone made me. Learning the five basic standing positions did not spark
my interest, it alll seemed rather weird and incomprehensible to me at that
age. Recently I have been told by a ballerina friend that some of those
positions should not even be taught to small kids.

I came to tango with 2 left feet
some thirteen years ago and am still finding out that
I have a hell of a lot to learn, but I feel no
compulsion to learn any other dance.

I did not have two left fet but I had never worn heels higher than 4cm
before. I had tweo weeklend workshops of foxtrot, jive, valse and chachacha
down my belt and that was ages ago. And yes, I did feel a "compulsion" to
learn this dance, the first formal dance I ever studied.

>

I have now been teaching tango for around 9 years and
have found empirically that the most gifted tango
students were those who had no previous dancing
experience, the basic reason being that they bring no
bad habits.

I brought the habit of wanting to move to the music, wanting to interpret it
in my way, as I had always done before with other music, and teachers
complained a lot that I kept trying to "dance on my own". I complained a
lot that the male beginners kept mishandling my body, and that I had to keep
following people more clueless than myself. .

The most difficult ones have been ballroom
dancers, with their compulsive hyperlordosis, begging
for a slipped disc. Yes, the best background is to
know how to walk....

Well... the walk is not the same.
Now I learn belly dancing, too, and since I started taking tribal bellydance
lessons too which ask for an awful lot of female muscle power and body
control, my tango improves dramatically with every tribal lesson I take. The
men in tango noticed the difference as soon as I started. And the money I
spend on those extra lessons is probably mostly what I save now on back and
foot massages, I don't need those anymore.

Astrid

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:49 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

WBSmith wrote:

> How many professional tango students have you seen? You know the
> ones, who are in every class, every workshop, but are almost never
> seen at a milonga. What is going on with those people?

The professional students are the ones training to be professional
teachers.

> Hasn?t anyone ever told them that they will never learn all there
> is about tango, they will never learn all of the steps

Yup. And they've seen how lucrative that makes class tango teaching.

> There is also a lot of talk about wanting/needing to dance with
> someone of your ?level.? Personally, just give me a woman who can
> follow,

Me too. "Level" is simply a fabrication of teaching, required for
marketing classes and workshops. In the real world it is meaningless.
There's no such thing as a girl of insufficient "level" for a good guy.

Chris





















-------- Original Message --------

*Subject:* [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
*From:* "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
*To:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:21:04 -0400

I'm curious, are there a lot of people (outside of BsAs) whose only real
dance experience is tango?

To the instructors out there, how many beginner students do you get who
are
new to dancing? From my limited observation, it seems fairly common.
Sometimes there even seems to be bias against people who have experience
in
other dance, particularly ballroom. It would seem difficult to me to try
to take someone who has no concept of dancing and begin teaching them
Argentine Tango, a dance full of subtleties, one that is very demanding of
the elements of embrace, lead, and follow and relies heavily on a sense of
musicality. It seems to me a little like trying to learn to drive a car
in
a Formula 1 racer.

How much time is spent just teaching beginners how to dance before they
can
start tango? Has anyone ever seen beginner AT for non-dancers offered
separately from AT for dancers?

I am continually amused and amazed at the number of tango steps being
taught. Expert instructors offer classes in steps that no one has ever
heard of (I sometimes suspect because they just made them up). I know a
couple of very honest swing instructors who tell students that as long as
the students have money, they have steps.

How many steps do you really need to know for a nice tango? From my
limited personal observation of those superb old milongueros in BsAs, I
would guess each one uses maybe 10 (+/-) fairly simple steps, that they
have made distinctly their own, with a few variations and a surprise
thrown
in every now and then. And then they use those few steps with
unparalleled
grace and musicality. From the ladies who have danced with them, am I far
off? Sometimes I think we tourists go to BsAs and see 50 milongueros each
dancing their 10 steps and surmise we need to learn 500 steps before we
can
dance like them.

The same honest swing instructors I know tell students that they don?t
learn to dance in class, they learn on the floor. In every class they
tell
students where upcoming dances are in the area. They tell them that after
8 weeks of classes that they will be better than most other dancers on the
floor (and they are about right), to just go out and dance. Yes, I
understand swing is considerably different than tango, but how many tango
teachers have you heard telling students anything close, that they didn?t
need any more lessons to have a good time, that what they really need is
to
just go out and dance?

How many professional tango students have you seen? You know the ones,
who
are in every class, every workshop, but are almost never seen at a
milonga.
What is going on with those people? Hasn?t anyone ever told them that
they
will never learn all there is about tango, they will never learn all of
the
steps, that tango is not an academic exercise but rather its? about
enjoying a magical dance around the floor? It?s not about the quantity of
steps anyone knows but about the quality of the ones you do know, and that
only comes from doing them about 500 times (as a start).

There is also a lot of talk about wanting/needing to dance with someone of
your ?level.? Personally, just give me a woman who can follow, walk,
has a
concept of the cross and ocho, and can manage basic turns to the right and
left. But mostly, mostly, mostly, just give me a woman who is simply
interested in enjoying three minutes of the closeness, passion, and
sensuality of a tango.

WBSmith


mail2web - Check your email from the web at
https://mail2web.com/ .

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:49 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

Astrid wrote:

> All this walking exercise, ochos against the wall, boleos against
> the wall, adornos against the wall, it has a purpose...

Sure: to make up for the shortage of adequate leaders in classes.

Dancing with a wall is a very poor substitute for dancing with a good
leader.

> I was bored to pieces

There you go....

> Paradas should be banned altogether from valse until one is able to
> dance them really fast and smoothly.

Including from Pugliese's Desde El Alma? ;)

Chris

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:02:50 -0400
From: euroking@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk, tangosmith@cox.net, tango-l@mit.edu

I cant say my only real dance experience is Tango, but I can say it is the only one in which I feel comfortable and believe I am learning proficiency. My wife tried to get me to learn swing, Latin and ballroom, with highly limited success, because I also felt like I had two left feet, and besides one was always infected. For some reason, Tango clicked and for the last 3 years I have done basically nothing but Tango.

Teaching Tango is beyond my comprehension at this stage, but I think prior experience depends on the person. In teaching skiing, I have found that relating the need and the relationship of balance to someone that has ballet training has been a tremendous advantage for them in learning to ski better. On the other hand, if they don't have an open mind and rely on movements from other dances it could be a long road. But the key is transferring skills which relate to balance as opposed to movements.

Another point is the issue of the music and the question of musicality, this too I believe lies in the person. Some can assimilate music naturally, the rhythm, the beat they see and feel it, the walk is a natural progression. For some of us, (me in particular) the walk and the music are initially from different planets. Time is the answer here. It will either with lessons and floor time meld into Tango or you will walk away off beat shaking your head.

Summarizing, I guess what I am saying is that prior experience is a plus or a minus depending on how an teacher leverages it and how a student adapts.

Just some thoughts,

Bill in Seattle.



-----Original Message-----

Sent: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?



--- "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net> wrote:

> I'm curious, are there a lot of people (outside of
> BsAs) whose only real
> dance experience is tango?

I did Russian Ballet for 6 months when I was 7; that
torture put me off any kind of dancing for the
following 40 years. I came to tango with 2 left feet
some thirteen years ago and am still finding out that
I have a hell of a lot to learn, but I feel no
compulsion to learn any other dance.

>
> To the instructors out there, how many beginner
> students do you get who are
> new to dancing? From my limited observation, it
> seems fairly common.
> Sometimes there even seems to be bias against people
> who have experience in
> other dance, particularly ballroom.

I have now been teaching tango for around 9 years and
have found empirically that the most gifted tango
students were those who had no previous dancing
experience, the basic reason being that they bring no
bad habits. The most difficult ones have been ballroom
dancers, with their compulsive hyperlordosis, begging
for a slipped disc. Yes, the best background is to
know how to walk....

Cheers,

Andy.


Andrew W. RYSER SZYMA?SKI,
23b All Saints Road,
London, W11 1HE,
07944 128 739.



Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:19:12 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: tango-l@mit.edu

I'm astounded, so far, there's been several responses to my first post today
- both private and public and seems to me that the general consensus among
men who responded is that women do not need instructions or training to
dance the tango! That in fact, the less training, the better.

I would like to hear from more women on this subject and I would also like
to say to the men that unless you've gone through an entire week of Milongas
only as a follower - only then would you be able to empathize with how much
training (or none) a woman/follower needs. When I first went to a Milonga 8
months ago - I had hardly any training at all and I had never felt so out of
place and lost and quite frankly, stupid in my life. I am actually so glad
that I did take classes. So that's why I'm so surprised by the responses
I've gotten today from the men.

so men need training and women don't? Is that the general idea?

Play Q6 for your chance to WIN great prizes.
https://q6trivia.imagine-live.com/enca/landing

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:47:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

Hi Caroline,

I think you haven't heard that much today about women
training because there is no point in arguing with people
who will only listen to their own viewpoints. In other
words, they believe that their experience is the only valid
experience. They haven't figured out that they only have
part of "the truth" and they seem unwilling to have those
truths challenged. Same old, same old.

As has been discussed before, women do need training. I am
currently teaching a women's technique class that focuses
on the quality of movement. Yesterday, we were working on
the spinal movement regarding the pivot (which minimizes
using muscle to pivot) and it opened a lot of eyes. I
heard several times from women about how it was something
they hadn't thought of before.

By the way, I do teach the women that while men can be
sweet and try to be helpful, they can also get a lot of
bulls**t from guys who do not know how to follow. So I
also make suggestions on how they can tell the difference
between the helpful stuff versus the c**p.

Also, I agree with Astrid's comments about women learning
body technique as opposed to steps. I like it when the
guys surprise me with a new step during a dance. Having
good technique usually allows me to follow them if they
lead it well.

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I'm astounded, so far, there's been several responses to
> my first post today
> - both private and public and seems to me that the
> general consensus among
> men who responded is that women do not need instructions
> or training to
> dance the tango! That in fact, the less training, the
> better.
>
> I would like to hear from more women on this subject and
> I would also like
> to say to the men that unless you've gone through an
> entire week of Milongas
> only as a follower - only then would you be able to
> empathize with how much
> training (or none) a woman/follower needs. When I first
> went to a Milonga 8
> months ago - I had hardly any training at all and I had
> never felt so out of
> place and lost and quite frankly, stupid in my life. I am
> actually so glad
> that I did take classes. So that's why I'm so surprised
> by the responses
> I've gotten today from the men.
>
> so men need training and women don't? Is that the general
> idea?
>

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:54:53 -0500
From: "Gibson Batch" <gibsonbatch@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: TANGO-L@MIT.EDU

Of course men beleive the women should know how to dance tango - let's not
take this too far!

But isn't it fair to say it is far easier for a couple to dance together if
the leader knows what he(she) is doing and the follower is given a simple
set of instructions that she(he) can use?

I was lead through a salsa set last week by a woman who knew far more than
I, and it was fine.

I dance nearly every weekend with someone who has never had a lesson in
tango. By the end of the song, you would never know it - at least among the
untrained eyes that look on. Women who can do this are angels - I know how
hard it must be. And I am thankful that my lead is simple enough and clear
enough that we can enjoy ourselves.

But I have tough times returning to women who 'know tango' after a
beginners' dance. I am not sure why.

Gibson
Minneapolis

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:33:35 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: runcarolinerun@hotmail.com, tango-l@mit.edu

>From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>

>
>I'm astounded, so far, there's been several responses to my first post
>today
>- both private and public and seems to me that the general consensus among
>men who responded is that women do not need instructions or training to
>dance the tango! That in fact, the less training, the better.
>

I'm also astounded that someone would make such patently absurd statement. I
don't know what sort of "tango dance" these men do with all these totally
untrained and uninstructed women do, but from what I know about Argentine
Tango (and practically every other dance I know of), it definitely takes
training and instruction to actually dance. Sure, I've seen the occasional
phenomenal woman who can follow almost perfectly with little tango training.
But they are definitely the very rare exception. And by the way, they are
already astonishingly good salsa dancers in a professional level.... Most
totally untrained and uninstructed women cannot dance tango at all.
Actually, they can hardly take a step to a given lead without tripping, or
losing their already precarious balance. IMHO, the women who learn tango the
fastest are usually good dancers of some other style and they definitely
have lots of natural talent, and even they can use training and instruction.

sincerely,

Manuel

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:38 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

Trini (a teacher) writes

> there is no point in arguing with people who will only listen to
> their own viewpoints. In other words, they believe that their
> experience is the only valid experience.

and then includes herself in the group she berates by proclaiming:

> As has been discussed before, women do need training.

.

> By the way, I do teach the women that while men can be
> sweet and try to be helpful, they can also get a lot of
> bulls**t from guys who do not know how to follow.

I hope you also teach the women that while teachers can be sweet and try
to be helpful, the women can also get a lot of bulls**t from teachers
who do not know how tango is learned.

Gibson (a dancer) writes:

> I dance nearly every weekend with someone who has never had a lesson
> in tango. By the end of the song, you would never know it - at least
> among the untrained eyes that look on. Women who can do this are
> angels - I know how hard it must be. And I am thankful that my lead
> is simple enough and clear enough that we can enjoy ourselves.

Angels indeed, and there are many of them. But no, it is not hard at
all... except for those who've had their natural ability to follow
sabotaged by step teachers. Give credit to your simple and clear lead.

Chris

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:43:42 -0400
From: "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: runcarolinerun@hotmail.com, tango-l@mit.edu

To Caroline in particular, I want to be perfectly clear that in my original
post, I never meant to imply that women didn?t need classes nor shouldn?t
continue to attend classes. The points I was trying to make were (1) the
ratio of time some people spend in class compared to dancing seems out of
balance to me, and (2) that one shouldn?t have to learn some extraordinary
number of steps to start enjoying tango. My comments were aimed equally to
both men and women.

At the end of my message, as a leader, I stated what I expected in a
partner, which included some knowledge of a few basic movements but nothing
extraordinary. Importantly, as a follower, you have every right to have
certain expectations of leaders, that they respect who you are, what you
are capable of at that moment, and that they give you clear leads.
Unfortunately, it sounds like such leaders are in short supply.

I think many other women feel as you Caroline. I know my partner feels the
same as you whenever she dances with a bad leader. She is a wonderful
tango dancer but she is the one who feels embarrassed when she dances with
someone who cannot lead, that she is the one who is stupid. I cannot
stress enough that you have absolutely nothing to regret or be embarrassed
about if the leader is boorish enough to try to lead something you are not
ready for or more likely, if he simply cannot give you a lead you can
follow. That is his problem, not yours. From time to time I blow a lead,
all leaders do, but that is the leader?s problem, not the followers. It is
my responsibility as a leader to understand what my follower is ready and
capable of doing and to make her trip around the floor the most pleasurable
as possible. It is not about what steps I may choose for her to perform.
My guess is that you are probably already a better dancer than the bad
leader who could not give you a mark you could recognize.

Back to lessons. Unfortunately, no amount of classes will enable you to
follow bad leaders. You said you were going to keep taking classes until
you?ve learned all the moves leaders tend to do at milongas. The number of
moves that bad leaders have is infinite. Many men are too busy going to
classes to learn more steps that they cannot lead instead of learning how
to lead the basic steps. Again, this doesn?t mean you don?t need or
shouldn?t take classes, just that classes are not a substitute for actually
dancing. (I wish we had more opportunities for practicas. Most cities in
the U.S. have few practicas compared to milongas).

I agree with Astrid?s recommendations about technique classes and other
conditioning classes. While I rarely take tango lessons, like Bill?s ski
students, I take ballet every week for the same reason Astrid takes belly
dancing. I find that I learn more about balance, grace, agility, control,
and posture in ballet (yes, Andy, from a far more demanding instructor)
than I do in tango classes where the focus is primarily on the steps.

And for a man to really learn to lead, again it is not about the number of
classes, but it is about dancing and dancing and dancing, closely feeling
and listening to your partner each and every dance, learning how to
communicate with her, learning how to bring that little smile to her face.
Not about what step you want.

As far as the comments on musicality, clearly it comes easier for some
people than others. But I think the same theory applies, you can (and
should) take classes in musicality but at some point, you just have to
listen, listen, listen and walk, walk, walk.

Thanks to all for such engaging conversation.




-----------------

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:19:12 -0400
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?


I'm astounded, so far, there's been several responses to my first post
today
- both private and public and seems to me that the general consensus among
men who responded is that women do not need instructions or training to
dance the tango! That in fact, the less training, the better.

I would like to hear from more women on this subject and I would also like
to say to the men that unless you've gone through an entire week of
Milongas
only as a follower - only then would you be able to empathize with how much
training (or none) a woman/follower needs. When I first went to a Milonga 8
months ago - I had hardly any training at all and I had never felt so out
of
place and lost and quite frankly, stupid in my life. I am actually so glad
that I did take classes. So that's why I'm so surprised by the responses
I've gotten today from the men.

so men need training and women don't? Is that the general idea?

Play Q6 for your chance to WIN great prizes.
https://q6trivia.imagine-live.com/enca/landing


mail2web - Check your email from the web at
https://mail2web.com/ .

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:07:39 -0400
From: Tine <tine_elists@tangomuse.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<f98ba6050608141507p478bc46bof884c8368fe0d943@mail.gmail.com>

Manuel
I am not so astounded. There are different pleasures to dancing with a
beginning follower than with an advanced follower. Beginners are very easy
to impress and they don't object to armleading, manhandling, non-consensual
close embrace, and inappropriate teaching on the dance floor, indeed they
are grateful if you help fight their inertia and point out their mistakes.
They would never ever think a mistake is the leader's fault, or if they
suspect it they would never mention it. If you've never taken a class you
also can't offer your leader suggestions on how to improve their poor lead,
hehehe. This is of course bad manners at a milonga, but dancing with a
beginner is a sure way to avoid being questioned. A mediocre guy can dance
with a beginner and make a deep impression on her, and consequently feel
like Mr Big Stuff. Try that with an advanced follower!

The pleasures of dancing with an advanced follower are more a high-stakes
thrill, like driving a Ferrari. You point at the gas and it GOES. You think
about stopping and it stops. Better not crash now! Plus everybody is
checking you out, and you think you are being mentally compared by your
follower to a lot of professional teachers and/or super cool pony tail and
cargopants types. You have to be really good and/or very confident to enjoy
this. This is assuming of course that there is a high pressure social scene
unfolding around you.

I know I vastly prefer advanced followers when I lead, even though as a
female I know I can't offer a hairy chest so I usually dance with the ladies
who have been passed over by the hairy chests for that particular tanda:
often beginners or the ones who don't bother to improve themselves. I have
some friends who are advanced followers and when I dance with them, man,
those boleos really go! Super gratifying. Of course, as a girl I am not in
the least bothered by fears of looking inadequate or unmanly in the eyes of
one or the other hot tango chica, so my motives are different from a guy's.

Tine


On 8/14/06, WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> >From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
>
> >
> >I'm astounded, so far, there's been several responses to my first post
> >today
> >- both private and public and seems to me that the general consensus
> among
> >men who responded is that women do not need instructions or training to
> >dance the tango! That in fact, the less training, the better.
> >
>
> I'm also astounded that someone would make such patently absurd statement.
> I
> don't know what sort of "tango dance" these men do with all these totally
> untrained and uninstructed women do, but from what I know about Argentine
> Tango (and practically every other dance I know of), it definitely takes
> training and instruction to actually dance. Sure, I've seen the occasional
> phenomenal woman who can follow almost perfectly with little tango
> training.
> But they are definitely the very rare exception. And by the way, they are
> already astonishingly good salsa dancers in a professional level.... Most
> totally untrained and uninstructed women cannot dance tango at all.
> Actually, they can hardly take a step to a given lead without tripping, or
> losing their already precarious balance. IMHO, the women who learn tango
> the
> fastest are usually good dancers of some other style and they definitely
> have lots of natural talent, and even they can use training and
> instruction.
>
> sincerely,
>
> Manuel
>
>
>

--
_____________________
www.tangomuse.com
www.yaletangoclub.org

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:44:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Hmmmm. This is going to be tricky.

I wish to state a particular viewpoint while not disputing anything
already said. This should be possible, I hope. I understand why people
have made the comments in this thread. I'm not disagreeing. But I would
like to propose a scenario to new women dancers.

As soon as we launch into a piece, we declare our bias (unintentionally or
not).

I shall state mine clearly.

I love to dance socially. I love to dance with advanced people for obvious
reasons. I love to follow sometimes and hope that the woman leader will be
patient with me (and know kind of what she is doing ... I'm not a beginner
at following). I love to take a newish person and give them, I hope, some
pleasure by not doing anything they can't do. Simple, simple tango is
tango tango, too. Is it not a sort of a quid-pro-quo for an experienced
person to attempt to impart the tango pleasure to initiates (if the
feeling is right)?

Another declaration: I am not just anywhere; I am in a city with perhaps
20 or 30 teachers (more?) who have good track records and many fans.

The topic is, women beginners and lessons.

I think each woman should decide for herself how to proceed. Period.

But from time to time, this subject comes up between myself and someone I
have just met on the dance floor. This is what I am writing about here.
Just my view based on a few years of going through all this repeatedly.



In the first years of getting to know people in my adoptive city, I was
struck by the numbers of good women dancers (with wonderful attitudes). I
was then struck by the number of them who had taken very few classes. It
seemed that most had started as a beginner in a class, and stopped.
Because they just went dancing. There seemed to be a predeliction to
learning this way:

take a very few classes;

dance a lot;

take an occasional workshop;

dance a lot;

forget learning from people wanting you to take classes;

dance a lot.

There were a lot of these women - and I enjoyed dancing with them
immensely. This informed my thinking.

Fast-forward through 6 years.

In this city which always has new people coming in (and of course largely
due to the good schools who recruit and teach), there have been numersous
times when I have danced with people who take classes all the time and
numerous times when I have danced with people who never take classes.

People who are taking classes all the time don't dance much. They are
living in their head.

People who don't take classes but dance a lot just dance. And I like to
just dance.

Many times, a new person will come along and we dance and I really enjoy
it and they say at the end, "I'm new and I really don't know what I'm
doing and I have to take more classes, don't you think?"

If we have a rapport, I will tell them that my favourite partners just
dance and because they do so, get all the good leaders and don't need to
learn what teachers show in public classes (as opposed to privates).
Public classes can really hold a natural dancer back. They make you think
you have so mucxh to learn that you aren't already just doing it. I tell
my new partner that I think she is way ahead of the game and that she
should just go to milongas because the good leaders will take great
pleasure in dancing with them.

Learning is not dancing.

Women are different than men.

A natural woman dancer who can follow instinctively should learn the
basics, then just dance. Classes are for the mind. And for the
contribution to the economic system of the world. Not necessarily for
moving your dancing forward if all you do is think and guess and memorise.

Dancing is for the body learning system and for enjoyment. When you want
to learn more, you take a private or a workshop and zero in on specifics
for you. You'll get far more in an hour than in 6 months of publics.

A soon as I encounter a teacher who teaches SOCIAL tango in as few lessons
as possible while giving everything they can and trying to get the student
to STOP coming for now because they know all they need to know to have a
fabulous evening dancing, I will change my opinion.

People in the business of teaching are in the business of teaching. If you
haven't thought about that ...

A woman with natural ability should learn simple basics and then just show
up at milongas. You can learn more in one night than you can in 6 months
of classes. Afer a month, you can be a year or more ahead of the women
just going to classes.

I can introduce you to dozens of women who prove my point.

I can also introduce you to women who are afraid to dance other than in
class and they can't dance after years of "learning."

This is a no-brainer.



Men have a more complex problem to deal with.

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:58:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

Chris,

I have listened to your viewpoint about women not needing
classes, but you've yet to say anything supporting it that
makes any sense.

Trini

--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:

> Trini (a teacher) writes
>
> > there is no point in arguing with people who will only
> listen to
> > their own viewpoints. In other words, they believe
> that their
> > experience is the only valid experience.
>
> and then includes herself in the group she berates by
> proclaiming:
>
> > As has been discussed before, women do need training.
>
> .
>
> > By the way, I do teach the women that while men can be
> > sweet and try to be helpful, they can also get a lot of
> > bulls**t from guys who do not know how to follow.
>
> I hope you also teach the women that while teachers can
> be sweet and try
> to be helpful, the women can also get a lot of bulls**t
> from teachers
> who do not know how tango is learned.
>
> Gibson (a dancer) writes:
>
> > I dance nearly every weekend with someone who has never
> had a lesson
> > in tango. By the end of the song, you would never know
> it - at least
> > among the untrained eyes that look on. Women who can
> do this are
> > angels - I know how hard it must be. And I am thankful
> that my lead
> > is simple enough and clear enough that we can enjoy
> ourselves.
>
> Angels indeed, and there are many of them. But no, it is
> not hard at
> all... except for those who've had their natural ability
> to follow
> sabotaged by step teachers. Give credit to your simple
> and clear lead.
>
> Chris

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 01:35 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

Well said, Keith. That gets my vote for Tango-L Post of the Year so far.

> A soon as I encounter a teacher who teaches SOCIAL tango in as few
> lessons as possible while giving everything they can and trying to
> get the student to STOP coming for now because they know all they
> need to know to have a fabulous evening dancing, I will change my
> opinion.

And I'll readily join you. If amongst the hundreds of teachers on this
list there is even one that meets this description, then please let's
hear from you.

Chris

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:38:36 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: "'Tango-L'" <tango-l@mit.edu>

Well, yes, I'm naturally blond - no gray hairs at all. My eyelashes are
naturally long and dark, and my lips and cheeks have a lovely natural
blush. Just like my tango is natural.

I have also heard many women tell their partners that they have hardly
worked on their tango at all. It's amazing how hard we work to make it
look easy!!

I believe it is harder for a woman to get good at tango than a man, for
all the reasons that Astrid mentioned. So ladies, if you are taking
lessons from someone who has never learned to follow - reconsider!!

Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN
www.mndance.com


I'm astounded, so far, there's been several responses to my first post
today
- both private and public and seems to me that the general consensus
among
men who responded is that women do not need instructions or training to
dance the tango! That in fact, the less training, the better.

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 23:34:38 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>

I've read a lot of messages on this topic. A lot of them deal with lessons. Lessons are important. So is practice. But, unless I've missed it, nobody has written about attitude. When I started, I thought I had to be the best dancer or no one would dance with me. I left milongas depressed because I didn't know impressive figures. I started to go into a death spiral with every mistake on the dance floor.

One day I realized I would never be the best dancer and that was OK. That wasn't important. But being the best dancer I could be WAS important. Once I changed my attitude, it was easier to learn to dance. I've been fortunate to sometimes go beyond dancing tango when my partner and I experience tango!!!

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Calling tomorrow for an appointment with an orthopedist to examine my collarbone after a car collision

I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:15:35 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: "Gibson Batch" <gibsonbatch@hotmail.com>, <TANGO-L@mit.edu>

> I dance nearly every weekend with someone who has never had a lesson in
> tango.

Makes you wonder why, though...

By the end of the song, you would never know it - at least among the

> untrained eyes that look on.

Yes, and that is the whole point. The untrained eyes.

Women who can do this are angels - I know how

> hard it must be. And I am thankful that my lead is simple enough and

clear

> enough that we can enjoy ourselves.
>
> But I have tough times returning to women who 'know tango' after a
> beginners' dance. I am not sure why.

I think, I can tell you why. Because dancing with that kind of woman screws
up your body. And the kinks are still there when you change your partner.

The other day I danced with Simon, one of the taxi dancers at our milonga.
His job is to dance with as many women as possible, as there are never
enough men, and the studio wants to give those women their money's worth. I
don't remember who he had been dancing with before, probably someone with
really bad balance. The first song was awful. He was keeping me in this
muscle hold, I could practically feel his biceps tensed, moving me around
with a lot of unnecessary force, and did not give me space to do anything on
my own. No adornos possible at all. The second song he changed. He changed
his embrace to something softer and more flexible,and tuned into me. He let
me dance. I was free to do embellishments, I was free to add accents, we had
enough contact so that I could speed him up or slow him down when I wanted.
We were dancing as equals, interacting, not as a teacher moving around an
ignorant follower in spite of herself and keeping her from falling over.
Or said in a different way, with the second song, he simply relaxed.

Now, the first way of dancing might be sensed as beneficial and helpful, and
maybe, as a "clear lead" by a beginner, the second song is the way you dance
with an advanced follower. Who may actually be a little better than
yourself.

>

Astrid

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:00:38 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>, "'Tango-L'" <tango-l@mit.edu>

> I believe it is harder for a woman to get good at tango than a man, for
> all the reasons that Astrid mentioned. So ladies, if you are taking
> lessons from someone who has never learned to follow - reconsider!!
>

???
May I add that the man also needs to develiop a dancer's body? Ok, he does
not have to learn to move on those shoes that can at times feel like
something out of a Margaret Atwood novel before you get used to them, but
the man, for all I know, needs even more:
- a dancer's body
- musicality
- knowledge of the male moves
- knowledge of the female moves and how to lead them in relation to his own
- navigation skills
- knowledge how to adjust his embrace and his lead to different bodies and
different dancers

I can't lead, I can only follow. Naturally, there are plenty of men around
know think they know how to walk, how to lead and how to do steps and
believe themselves great dancers. And if something doesn't work, they blame
it all on the follower. And get another one who keeps her mouth shut about
their mistakes.

A good rule of thumb I learned from a porten~a: "If I want to know whether a
man is a good dancer, I look at the face of the woman he is dancing with."

And a reminder to all those who are very confident of their opinions
regarding the non existent necessity of lessons, the stupidity and greed of
teachers, the gullible and neurotic behaviour of those who take lessons and
so on- keep in mind that Socrates's most fanous words are: "I know that I
know nothing."

Frankly
Astrid

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:32 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

I wrote:

> If amongst the hundreds of teachers on this list there is even one
> that meets this description, then please let's hear from you.

First teacher response received below, though not quite the type I was
hoping for ;)

Chris


Subject: Tango-L

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:37:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Iron Logic <railogic@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

Our dear Chris clearly wants to be the King of the Queens.... wants to be surrounded by innocent so he can get away with it all, ...he surely not stupid ;)



"Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
I wrote:

> If amongst the hundreds of teachers on this list there is even one
> that meets this description, then please let's hear from you.

First teacher response received below, though not quite the type I was
hoping for ;)

Chris


Subject: Tango-L

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:48:56 +0100
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@cenderis.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

"Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> writes:

> Well said, Keith. That gets my vote for Tango-L Post of the Year so far.
>
>> A soon as I encounter a teacher who teaches SOCIAL tango in as few
>> lessons as possible while giving everything they can and trying to
>> get the student to STOP coming for now because they know all they
>> need to know to have a fabulous evening dancing, I will change my
>> opinion.
>
> And I'll readily join you. If amongst the hundreds of teachers on
> this list there is even one that meets this description, then please
> let's hear from you.

The teacher I first took lessons from said more or less that to me.

(No idea whether he still teaches. Indeed, perhaps there's a lesson
there. I seem to remember Ricardo Vidort saying much the same, when
talking about how he gave private lessons to people for only quite a
short period of time (or so it struck me when he said it), after which
there was really little purpose in them continuing: they should learn
on their own.)

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:14:25 -0400
From: euroking@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

Did I miss something? What I understood when I read what Chris wrote was:

Teachers, in order to eat, need students who pay.
To insure they keep paying you teach them enough that they believe the need more.
Thus they come back for more lessons and pay more money.
Students Learn and Teachers eat.

Question I read was are there any teachers out there that try to give the student the basics they need to go out and dance at milongas and tells them they don't need any more lessons except a refresher now and then. In other words that gives the student enough information to survive and learn by doing.

My reaction was this is a very simplistic Hobson's choice that probably does not fit the majority. The teacher's I have worked with have a more idealistic view. They all gain satisfaction by seeing their students progress and have fun. This is a source of great satisfaction for most. Most communities I believe don't have a great number of professional teachers that are getting rich by teaching. My instructors have consistently told me that I will only get better by dancing, classes are part of a path. I have an option to sign up for a month, for a slight discount, or on a drop in basis. I have never felt any pressure to continue or take lessons.

With that said, visiting instructors from BsAs are slightly different as they are there for workshops, some are very affable and helpful others are there to deliver a product, take or leave it. That approach is neither good nor bad but rather a matter of expectations. If you expect the comfort level of your local teacher(s) from the visiting group, you may be disappointed. They don't know you and sometimes they don't have time to know you as workshops have usually far more students than a single individual could possibly serve. But that is not bad if you can independently take what is being taught. If you need the hand holding, they usually can't take much time as then you start to hog the session. It is a constant push pull scenario. You experience will ultimately depend on your expectations and attitude.

Back to Chris' question. I think it was a fair question that posited two side of a common coin but the answer lies more in the middle than the ends. I personally believe that a vast majority of teachers want their students to dance well; it is a reflection on them. Good students that dance well tell friends who tell friend that then prime the pump and money from new students appears. If the teacher is protective and intent on maintain their income by withholding information and systematically feeding to students to keep them on the hook, I believe their continued existence, as a teacher is definitely finite. The market will control.

Just some thoughts,

Bill in Seattle



-----Original Message-----

From: railogic@yahoo.com
Sent: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?


Our dear Chris clearly wants to be the King of the Queens.... wants to be
surrounded by innocent so he can get away with it all, ...he surely not stupid
;)



"Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
I wrote:

> If amongst the hundreds of teachers on this list there is even one
> that meets this description, then please let's hear from you.

First teacher response received below, though not quite the type I was
hoping for ;)

Chris


Subject: Tango-L

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:56:46 -0300
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: tl2@chrisjj.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

Chris, UK wrote:

> WBSmith wrote:
>
>
>> How many professional tango students have you seen? You know the
>> ones, who are in every class, every workshop, but are almost never
>> seen at a milonga. What is going on with those people?
>>
>
> The professional students are the ones training to be professional
> teachers.
>
>
>> Hasn?t anyone ever told them that they will never learn all there
>> is about tango, they will never learn all of the steps
>>
> Yup. And they've seen how lucrative that makes class tango teaching.

Except, most professional teachers and dancers nedd a day job to eat.

>> There is also a lot of talk about wanting/needing to dance with
>> someone of your ?level.? Personally, just give me a woman who can
>> follow,
>>
>
> Me too. "Level" is simply a fabrication of teaching, required for
> marketing classes and workshops. In the real world it is meaningless.
> There's no such thing as a girl of insufficient "level" for a good guy.
>

True that experience does not correlate with the
ability to move properly. Let's say, that a woman
with "negative technique" as Tom Stermitz would
put it, can make the best dancer look like an ass, as
well as take all the fun out of it for him.

There are some women who come into the scene without
negative technique, but far more who do. How they get from
being lusy to being good, is a matter of instruction, whether
formal, semiformal or casual.

Christopher

> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> *Subject:* [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
> *From:* "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
> *To:* tango-l@mit.edu
> *Date:* Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:21:04 -0400
>
> I'm curious, are there a lot of people (outside of BsAs) whose only real
> dance experience is tango?
>
> To the instructors out there, how many beginner students do you get who
> are
> new to dancing? From my limited observation, it seems fairly common.
> Sometimes there even seems to be bias against people who have experience
> in
> other dance, particularly ballroom. It would seem difficult to me to try
> to take someone who has no concept of dancing and begin teaching them
> Argentine Tango, a dance full of subtleties, one that is very demanding of
> the elements of embrace, lead, and follow and relies heavily on a sense of
> musicality. It seems to me a little like trying to learn to drive a car
> in
> a Formula 1 racer.
>
> How much time is spent just teaching beginners how to dance before they
> can
> start tango? Has anyone ever seen beginner AT for non-dancers offered
> separately from AT for dancers?
>
> I am continually amused and amazed at the number of tango steps being
> taught. Expert instructors offer classes in steps that no one has ever
> heard of (I sometimes suspect because they just made them up). I know a
> couple of very honest swing instructors who tell students that as long as
> the students have money, they have steps.
>
> How many steps do you really need to know for a nice tango? From my
> limited personal observation of those superb old milongueros in BsAs, I
> would guess each one uses maybe 10 (+/-) fairly simple steps, that they
> have made distinctly their own, with a few variations and a surprise
> thrown
> in every now and then. And then they use those few steps with
> unparalleled
> grace and musicality. From the ladies who have danced with them, am I far
> off? Sometimes I think we tourists go to BsAs and see 50 milongueros each
> dancing their 10 steps and surmise we need to learn 500 steps before we
> can
> dance like them.
>
> The same honest swing instructors I know tell students that they don?t
> learn to dance in class, they learn on the floor. In every class they
> tell
> students where upcoming dances are in the area. They tell them that after
> 8 weeks of classes that they will be better than most other dancers on the
> floor (and they are about right), to just go out and dance. Yes, I
> understand swing is considerably different than tango, but how many tango
> teachers have you heard telling students anything close, that they didn?t
> need any more lessons to have a good time, that what they really need is
> to
> just go out and dance?
>
> How many professional tango students have you seen? You know the ones,
> who
> are in every class, every workshop, but are almost never seen at a
> milonga.
> What is going on with those people? Hasn?t anyone ever told them that
> they
> will never learn all there is about tango, they will never learn all of
> the
> steps, that tango is not an academic exercise but rather its? about
> enjoying a magical dance around the floor? It?s not about the quantity of
> steps anyone knows but about the quality of the ones you do know, and that
> only comes from doing them about 500 times (as a start).
>
> There is also a lot of talk about wanting/needing to dance with someone of
> your ?level.? Personally, just give me a woman who can follow, walk,
> has a
> concept of the cross and ocho, and can manage basic turns to the right and
> left. But mostly, mostly, mostly, just give me a woman who is simply
> interested in enjoying three minutes of the closeness, passion, and
> sensuality of a tango.
>
> WBSmith
>
>
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> https://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>
>
>

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:10:52 -0300
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:

> As has been discussed before, women do need training. I am
> currently teaching a women's technique class that focuses
> on the quality of movement. Yesterday, we were working on
> the spinal movement regarding the pivot (which minimizes
> using muscle to pivot) and it opened a lot of eyes. I
> heard several times from women about how it was something
> they hadn't thought of before.
>

To this I must relate an episode from my BA experience.

Afteer taking Mimi Santapa's technique class several times
a week for about 4 weeks, I was in a private with Roberto
Dentone when he had occasion to show me what a woman
had to feel during a giro. He led me through the giro a few
times, and then he exclaimed,that I was a perfect follower
for him, except I was a bit too fat (and of course a guy).

The poiint is that, there is no "women's technique" or "men's
technique", there is only technique. The history of tango,
especially how men learned during the Golden Age should make
that very clear, yes?

I am pretty much dead set against the false distinction of
gender related technique. The biomechnics are identical,
and teaching women to move differently from men, means
that someone isn't moving right.

Christopher

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:51:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

This is somehat true, Christopher. You've studied
authentic movement, correct? Getting good quality of
movement in real life is the same between the genders but
adding in leading/following for tango brings in
differences.

There exists a preponderance of different movements between
the different genders. For example, men don't walk
backwards nearly as much as women. The technique for that
is different between the genders (men do not extend their
back leg as much). Regarding spinal movement, for men,
it's more bottom-up, whereas with women, it is more
top-down. There are also a lot of things men can do so
that the woman can be comfortable, such as making the chest
convex or concave. Obviously, women do not need to change
the convexity or concavity of their chests to accommodate a
step (as far as I know, anyway, aside than colgadas).
Knowing these details for their roles are what makes good
dancers...well...good.

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com> wrote:

> Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> > As has been discussed before, women do need training.
> I am
> > currently teaching a women's technique class that
> focuses
> > on the quality of movement. Yesterday, we were working
> on
> > the spinal movement regarding the pivot (which
> minimizes
> > using muscle to pivot) and it opened a lot of eyes. I
> > heard several times from women about how it was
> something
> > they hadn't thought of before.
> >
>
> To this I must relate an episode from my BA experience.
>
> Afteer taking Mimi Santapa's technique class several
> times
> a week for about 4 weeks, I was in a private with Roberto
> Dentone when he had occasion to show me what a woman
> had to feel during a giro. He led me through the giro a
> few
> times, and then he exclaimed,that I was a perfect
> follower
> for him, except I was a bit too fat (and of course a
> guy).
>
> The poiint is that, there is no "women's technique" or
> "men's
> technique", there is only technique. The history of
> tango,
> especially how men learned during the Golden Age should
> make
> that very clear, yes?
>
> I am pretty much dead set against the false distinction
> of
> gender related technique. The biomechnics are identical,
> and teaching women to move differently from men, means
> that someone isn't moving right.
>
> Christopher
>

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 02:34 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

Christopher L. Everett wrote:

> > And they've seen how lucrative that makes class tango teaching.

> Except, most professional teachers and dancers nedd a day job to eat.

You're talking about those for whom it's not lucrative. I'm talking
about those for whom it is. A visiting teacher can earn $10,000 a week
here. I'm not saying that's bad, but it would be unrealistic to expect
that not to be a motivation for would-be teachers.

Chris

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:19:49 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>, "Tango-L"

How on earth do you make the woman more comfortable with a concave chest?

> top-down. There are also a lot of things men can do so
> that the woman can be comfortable, such as making the chest
> convex or concave. Obviously, women do not need to change
> the convexity or concavity of their chests to accommodate a
> step (as far as I know, anyway, aside than colgadas).
> Knowing these details for their roles are what makes good
> dancers...well...good.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 10:44:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

It creates a space for her to go into for certain turns
that might otherwise be uncomfortable in close embrace.
One of those things that women are often not aware of.

Trini

--- astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:

> How on earth do you make the woman more comfortable with
> a concave chest?
>
> > top-down. There are also a lot of things men can do so
> > that the woman can be comfortable, such as making the
> chest
> > convex or concave. Obviously, women do not need to
> change
> > the convexity or concavity of their chests to
> accommodate a
> > step (as far as I know, anyway, aside than colgadas).
> > Knowing these details for their roles are what makes
> good
> > dancers...well...good.
> >
> > Trini de Pittsburgh
> >
>
>
>

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm

Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 05:37:09 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: "'Tango-L'" <tango-l@mit.edu>

So how does a teacher get her students to a milonga if they don't think
they're ready? I would love to see my students go out more often.
Towards that I organize several events that are easy to attend for
dancers and non-dancers alike. We have great, friendly dancers in the
community who make a point of dancing with beginners, a practice I
encourage with rewards like free lessons or admission. Still some
beginners won't venture out - "not good enough yet" or "won't know
anybody".

I would love to have the kind of influence that you seem to credit
teachers with!
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN


-----Original Message-----

From: Chris, UK [mailto:tl2@chrisjj.com]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 7:35 PM
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

Well said, Keith. That gets my vote for Tango-L Post of the Year so far.

> A soon as I encounter a teacher who teaches SOCIAL tango in as few
> lessons as possible while giving everything they can and trying to
> get the student to STOP coming for now because they know all they
> need to know to have a fabulous evening dancing, I will change my
> opinion.

And I'll readily join you. If amongst the hundreds of teachers on this
list there is even one that meets this description, then please let's
hear from you.

Chris

Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:42:21 -0300
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:

> This is somehat true, Christopher. You've studied
> authentic movement, correct?

No, I haven't. I do pay attention to what's going on with
my body, especially as I walk, because I'm working on my
posture. But as I have watched more than one modern dancer
become tango teacher mess up every single one of their
students, I'm quite leary of introducing ideas from other
disciplines into tango.

> Getting good quality of
> movement in real life is the same between the genders but
> adding in leading/following for tango brings in
> differences.
>
> There exists a preponderance of different movements between
> the different genders. For example, men don't walk
> backwards nearly as much as women. The technique for that
> is different between the genders (men do not extend their
> back leg as much).

Extending the leg backwards more than a little bit forces
the body to lean forward and put weight on both feet to
keep from falling over. Big no-no. Aside from wearing
heels taller than they are stable on (endemic to tango
everywhere), excess leg extension is the major reason
women hang off men's shoulders.

The place to get the extra distance a woman needs to match
the longer stride of men (aside from men taking somewhat
shorter steps) is the push off from the trailing leg. A
bigger push-off allows her to reach back more without
losing equilibrium, just like stepping forward. But short
men leading tall women would step backwards the same way.

It is instructive that Mimi taught both men and women how
to walk walk forwards and backwards using the same exercises.
To do them without falling over, you had to stand on one
foot securely and use your knees and hips and the muscles
of the inner thigh.

> Regarding spinal movement, for men,
> it's more bottom-up, whereas with women, it is more
> top-down.

Haven't much looked at that. I can think of several
places where the twist has to go top down for me,
though.

> There are also a lot of things men can do so
> that the woman can be comfortable, such as making the chest
> convex or concave. Obviously, women do not need to change
> the convexity or concavity of their chests to accommodate a
> step (as far as I know, anyway, aside than colgadas).

I have a problem with the word "comfort". All too often,
"comfort" means what we are used to doing, not what is
correct.

When Roberto made me lift my sternum, I started getting
an ache behind my right shoulder blade. When he got me
to use my left hand where it needed to be, my left shoulder
got sore. Eventually, the new posture and hand position
will become second nature, but until then it will be
"uncomfortable".

In any case, if a woman has good posture, she needs no
accommodations. Moreover, these adjustments can take the
man out of a place of optimal posture himself. Dancing
with a lot of women who require the same accommodation
will only make the accommodation a matter of habit.

> Knowing these details for their roles are what makes good
> dancers...well...good.

I used to think I knew what was good.

> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
> --- "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com> wrote:
>
>> Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>>> As has been discussed before, women do need training.
>> I am
>>> currently teaching a women's technique class that
>> focuses
>>> on the quality of movement. Yesterday, we were working
>> on
>>> the spinal movement regarding the pivot (which
>> minimizes
>>> using muscle to pivot) and it opened a lot of eyes. I
>>> heard several times from women about how it was
>> something
>>> they hadn't thought of before.
>>>
>> To this I must relate an episode from my BA experience.
>>
>> Afteer taking Mimi Santapa's technique class several
>> times
>> a week for about 4 weeks, I was in a private with Roberto
>> Dentone when he had occasion to show me what a woman
>> had to feel during a giro. He led me through the giro a
>> few
>> times, and then he exclaimed,that I was a perfect
>> follower
>> for him, except I was a bit too fat (and of course a
>> guy).
>>
>> The poiint is that, there is no "women's technique" or
>> "men's
>> technique", there is only technique. The history of
>> tango,
>> especially how men learned during the Golden Age should
>> make
>> that very clear, yes?
>>
>> I am pretty much dead set against the false distinction
>> of
>> gender related technique. The biomechnics are identical,
>> and teaching women to move differently from men, means
>> that someone isn't moving right.
>>
>> Christopher
>>
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>

Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:36:18 -0300
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: tl2@chrisjj.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

Chris, UK wrote:

> Christopher L. Everett wrote:
>
>>> And they've seen how lucrative that makes class tango teaching.
>>>
>> Except, most professional teachers and dancers nedd a day job to eat.
>>
>
> You're talking about those for whom it's not lucrative. I'm talking
> about those for whom it is. A visiting teacher can earn $10,000 a week
> here.

Name brands like Naveira, Arquimbau, Zotto, Salas or Balmaceda, right?
There
are people who dance or teach just as well, that are barely scraping
by. You
might even recognize their names.

The requirement for making the big bucks teaching is to have been in a
show, or alternatively speak English well enough to display their natural
charm and wit. Neither is a real qualification for teaching.

> I'm not saying that's bad, but it would be unrealistic to expect
> that not to be a motivation for would-be teachers.
>

The more fools they.

Christopher

Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:04:42 +0000
From: "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: tango-l@mit.edu

I haven't had much luck either, regardless of continuous encouragement. One
recent student however did venture out after only a couple group classes,
and I repeatedly pointed to her example for the others to emulate, still
with only marginal success. In Portland we have a very nice Sunday practica
that is low-key, totally informal, with all skill levels represented, and it
has been a sufficiently safe magnet to draw a few students.

The only other thing I've thought of doing is to actually TAKE the students
out after class, similar to what a lot of tours to BsAs do.

J
www.TangoMoments.com


----Original Message Follows----

Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 00:01:02 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>, "Trini y Sean
\(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

> Extending the leg backwards more than a little bit forces
> the body to lean forward and put weight on both feet to
> keep from falling over. Big no-no.

Big no-no for someone who is not yet able to isolate the leg from the hip.
And this is one of the first things you train when you learn the tango walk.
IF you have a teacher who teaches the walk.

Aside from wearing

> heels taller than they are stable on (endemic to tango
> everywhere), excess leg extension is the major reason
> women hang off men's shoulders.

Good grief, Chris , who are you dancing with? Have you checked your own
tango posture in close embrace?

>
> The place to get the extra distance a woman needs to match
> the longer stride of men (aside from men taking somewhat
> shorter steps) is the push off from the trailing leg.

Push off from the standing leg, you mean. The trailing leg is doing what it
says, and cannot push.
The woman should only use that push if it is matched by a lead from the man,
otherwise you get that clos-open-close banging connection.

A

> bigger push-off allows her to reach back more without
> losing equilibrium, just like stepping forward. But short
> men leading tall women would step backwards the same way.

Step backwards like that as a man and you have a good chance to crash into
the couple behind you.

>
> It is instructive that Mimi taught both men and women how
> to walk walk forwards and backwards using the same exercises.
> To do them without falling over, you had to stand on one
> foot securely and use your knees and hips and the muscles
> of the inner thigh.

These are the muscles you use a lot in tango. Not just to "do the exercises
without falling over".

> > Regarding spinal movement, for men,
> > it's more bottom-up, whereas with women, it is more
> > top-down.

> Haven't much looked at that. I can think of several
> places where the twist has to go top down for me,
> though.

The giro, e.g., something someone once called the "prelead" on tango-l.

> > There are also a lot of things men can do so
> > that the woman can be comfortable, such as making the chest
> > convex or concave. Obviously, women do not need to change
> > the convexity or concavity of their chests to accommodate a
> > step (as far as I know, anyway, aside than colgadas).

> I have a problem with the word "comfort". All too often,
> "comfort" means what we are used to doing, not what is
> correct.

...I used to think I knew what was good.

You are being very discrete in your criticism, Chris.

>
> In any case, if a woman has good posture, she needs no
> accommodations.

Well, actually, you embrace a tall woman quite differently from a short one.

Moreover, these adjustments can take the

> man out of a place of optimal posture himself.

Esp. if the adjustment is the wrong one.

Dancing

> with a lot of women who require the same accommodation
> will only make the accommodation a matter of habit.

Yes. The blind leading the blind.


Astrid

Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:39:02 +0000
From: "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: tango-l@mit.edu

... from Chris...
> The place to get the extra distance a woman needs to match
> the longer stride of men (aside from men taking somewhat
> shorter steps) is the push off from the trailing leg.

...from Astrid ...
Push off from the standing leg, you mean. The trailing leg is doing what it
says, and cannot push.
The woman should only use that push if it is matched by a lead from the man,
otherwise you get that clos-open-close banging connection.
------------------------

Aren't you both saying the same thing? If you're standing on your left leg
and extend and step back with your free right leg, then your left leg is the
"standing" leg, and it's also the "trailing" leg as you complete the step.

Also, focusing on pushing off with the standing/trailing leg is an effective
technique whether taking short or long steps. It emphasizes pushing into the
ground, maintaining balance/axis on the supporting leg until weight is
transferred.

J

Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:40:22 -0300
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

astrid wrote:

>> Extending the leg backwards more than a little bit forces
>> the body to lean forward and put weight on both feet to
>> keep from falling over. Big no-no.
>>
> Big no-no for someone who is not yet able to isolate the leg from the hip.
> And this is one of the first things you train when you learn the tango walk.
> IF you have a teacher who teaches the walk.
>

I'm not sure I know what you're talking about here. I will
say if you are truly standing on one foot, the free leg can do
almost anything.

> Aside from wearing
>
>> heels taller than they are stable on (endemic to tango
>> everywhere), excess leg extension is the major reason
>> women hang off men's shoulders.
>>
> Good grief, Chris , who are you dancing with?

This is a common experience in the US, and for that matter
in BA as well. About 40% of women dance this way.

> Have you checked your own
> tango posture in close embrace?
>

I only dance close. And my embrace got checked
every private lesson I had, 27 times. I daresay it's
the best it's ever been, which is not saying much.

The accomodation I make to someone putting their
weight on me is to pick them up off the ground so
I can stand straight. It's easier than putting up with
a sore lower back.

>> The place to get the extra distance a woman needs to match
>> the longer stride of men (aside from men taking somewhat
>> shorter steps) is the push off from the trailing leg.
>>
>
> Push off from the standing leg, you mean. The trailing leg is doing what it
> says, and cannot push.
>

That's what I meant.

> The woman should only use that push if it is matched by a lead from the man,
> otherwise you get that clos-open-close banging connection.
>

Or she turns into a locomotive.

Which is to say that the man needs to surge
with his standing foot. Exactly so.

> A
>
>> bigger push-off allows her to reach back more without
>> losing equilibrium, just like stepping forward. But short
>> men leading tall women would step backwards the same way.
>>
> Step backwards like that as a man and you have a good chance to crash into
> the couple behind you.
>

Or in front of you in the line of dance ...

But it depends on the situation. You can use the same technique for
a very short step, and the women will come with you in a definitive
fashion.

>> It is instructive that Mimi taught both men and women how
>> to walk walk forwards and backwards using the same exercises.
>> To do them without falling over, you had to stand on one
>> foot securely and use your knees and hips and the muscles
>> of the inner thigh.
>>
> These are the muscles you use a lot in tango. Not just to "do the exercises
> without falling over".
>
>

Yeah. Working with Mimi did good things for me, I think.

>>> Regarding spinal movement, for men,
>>> it's more bottom-up, whereas with women, it is more
>>> top-down.
>>>
>
>
>> Haven't much looked at that. I can think of several
>> places where the twist has to go top down for me,
>> though.
>>
> The giro, e.g., something someone once called the "prelead" on tango-l.
>
>

That was one place, yeah. Another would be
the lead for the lapiz.

>>> There are also a lot of things men can do so
>>> that the woman can be comfortable, such as making the chest
>>> convex or concave. Obviously, women do not need to change
>>> the convexity or concavity of their chests to accommodate a
>>> step (as far as I know, anyway, aside than colgadas).
>>>
>> I have a problem with the word "comfort". All too often,
>> "comfort" means what we are used to doing, not what is
>> correct.
>>
> ...I used to think I knew what was good.
>
> You are being very discrete in your criticism, Chris
>

Well, I have to acknowledge that how we dance tango here
in the US has it's differences from how the best dancers in
BA dance. I think we should minimize those differences as
best we can, but it isn't ever going to be perfect.

It's also the truth. In BA I learned how to watch people dance
horribly without saying or doing a thing about it, not even
the sotto voce "Que horrible!" that Portenos allowthemselves.

>> In any case, if a woman has good posture, she needs no
>> accommodations.
>>
>
> Well, actually, you embrace a tall woman quite differently from a short one.
>

To a point. The overall dynamics need to be the same though.

> Moreover, these adjustments can take the
>
>> man out of a place of optimal posture himself.
>>
> Esp. if the adjustment is the wrong one.
>
> Dancing
>
>> with a lot of women who require the same accommodation
>> will only make the accommodation a matter of habit.
>>
> Yes. The blind leading the blind.
>
>

I'll go further and say that dancing with bad dancers makes
you worse, no matter how good you are. I have examples,
I can't talk about in a public forum, so I'm quite comfortable
saying that.

> Astrid
>
>
>

Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:03:10 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>

Somebody wrote:

Extending the leg backwards more than a little bit forces the body to lean forward and put weight on both feet to keep from falling over. Big no-no. Aside from wearing heels taller than they are stable on , excess leg extension is the major reason women hang off men's shoulders.

The place to get the extra distance a woman needs to match the longer stride of men (aside from men taking somewhat
shorter steps) is the push off from the trailing leg. A bigger push-off allows her to reach back more without
losing equilibrium, just like stepping forward. But short men leading tall women would step backwards the same way.

The above makes absolutely no sense to me. You should be able to move your foot backward until you feel your hips starting to turn to get a longer stretch. If I'm standing on my right foot (I wish I could except it's sprained from a car collision), I can reach back with my left without impacting my balance. I don't fall over. I don't want to reach so far my hips start to turn.

The great Carlos Gavito wrote "I lead but I follow." Yes, the man indicates the size of the step but that is from moving his upper body, not his feet. I can feel when a woman has reached her maximum backward stride. It doesn't make any difference that my stride is longer than her's. I'm following her body and I shouldn't be pushing her beyond her maximum stride. The woman shouldn't need to match the size of my step. I'm adjusting to her, NOT the other way around.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Beginning 3 weeks of physical therapy, 3 times a week to rehabilitate my sprained ankle. Dying to dance!!

Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:46:53 -0400
From: "Keith" <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Hi Everybody,

Chris must have had a traumatic experience with Tango instuctors to be so cynical and to despise them so much.

With my partner I teach a beginner and improver tango class every Friday from 7.30 to 10.00pm. The class morphs from beginner to improver somewhere in the middle, depending on the students. It's very relaxed and beginners can stay on for the improver class for free and improvers can join the beginner class for free.

The class is followed by a milonga from 10.00pm to 1.00am and costs HK$50 or about US$6.50. However, anyone from the class can stay on for the milonga for just HK$10, that's about US$1.30 and includes as much red and white wine as you can drink. I think you'll agree it's a pretty good deal and the idea, obviously, is to get my students into a milonga as quickly as possible. Maybe they'll just watch or, with the help of the more advanced dancers, they'll have a go. We have a big school with lots of space so the beginners don't get in the way too much. We try to keep the whole thing as relaxed, informal and friendly as possible.

Every tango teacher I've ever met wants his students on the dance floor - Chris, why else do you think we teach tango? What gave you such a negative view of tango instructors?

Best Regards to All,
Keith McNab

Lois asked:

So how does a teacher get her students to a milonga if they don't
think they're ready?

Chris replied:

You could find out by signing-up for Keith's beginners' lessons...

But he could probably tell you the answer for free: she doesn't. The
issue is not how a teacher can get pupils to go, but what has the
teacher done/not done in the first place such that they don't want to.

I credit teachers with very little influence over individual pupils.

But a lot over the group. It seems to me the average class-based course soon expels those that have an affinity for tango, when either they find they can dance and would rather do that than classes, or that they can't stand the frustration of the class teaching model's incompatibility with their natural respect for music, partner and self.

Those who are left - the ones continuing with classes - are often to
teachers the successes, but to tango are actually the rejects. No
surprise that teacher finds it hard to inject a class of rejects into the milongas. They'll be far happier remaining in the twilight world of the tango classroom, all the way up to "advanced". Or even to "teacher".

Chris

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:31 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

Keith of The Hong Kong Tango Academy, (www.tangohk.com) asked:

> What gave you such a negative view of tango instructors?

There are teachers that I admire and respect, mostly for their
one-to-one teaching. And there are teachers of whom I have a negative
view, including class instructors who say they're teaching social tango
but in fact are teaching stuff such as your:

https://web.archive.org/web/20050205050606/tangohk.com/tango_figures.htm

Taking a syllabus of figures and changing the labels Bronze, Silver, and
Gold to Beginner, Intermediate etc. does not magically make it
appropriate for learning social tango.

in particular, teaching beginners ochoes as #2, progressing to "Medio
Giro [Half Turn] to Right with Sacadas [Displacement] (i) Man LF entry
(ii) Man RF entry with Pencil" even before they've reached intermediate
does a great disservice to them and to the community, in my opinion.

Yes, I've heard the excuses. And I have sympathy for teachers honest
enough to admit, like Yale Tango Club here recently, that failing to
serve beginners wanting Stuff risks losing them to a teacher that does.

But the bottom line is that the end result is not social tango. It is
anti-social tango.

Chris











-------- Original Message --------

*Subject:* [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
*From:* "Keith" <keith@tangohk.com>
*To:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:46:53 -0400

Hi Everybody,

Chris must have had a traumatic experience with Tango instuctors to be
so cynical and to despise them so much.

With my partner I teach a beginner and improver tango class every Friday
from 7.30 to 10.00pm. The class morphs from beginner to improver
somewhere in the middle, depending on the students. It's very relaxed
and beginners can stay on for the improver class for free and improvers
can join the beginner class for free.

The class is followed by a milonga from 10.00pm to 1.00am and costs
HK$50 or about US$6.50. However, anyone from the class can stay on for
the milonga for just HK$10, that's about US$1.30 and includes as much
red and white wine as you can drink. I think you'll agree it's a pretty
good deal and the idea, obviously, is to get my students into a milonga
as quickly as possible. Maybe they'll just watch or, with the help of
the more advanced dancers, they'll have a go. We have a big school with
lots of space so the beginners don't get in the way too much. We try to
keep the whole thing as relaxed, informal and friendly as possible.

Every tango teacher I've ever met wants his students on the dance floor
- Chris, why else do you think we teach tango? What gave you such a
negative view of tango instructors?

Best Regards to All,
Keith McNab

Lois asked:

So how does a teacher get her students to a milonga if they don't
think they're ready?

Chris replied:

You could find out by signing-up for Keith's beginners' lessons...

But he could probably tell you the answer for free: she doesn't. The
issue is not how a teacher can get pupils to go, but what has the
teacher done/not done in the first place such that they don't want to.

I credit teachers with very little influence over individual pupils.

But a lot over the group. It seems to me the average class-based course
soon expels those that have an affinity for tango, when either they find
they can dance and would rather do that than classes, or that they can't
stand the frustration of the class teaching model's incompatibility with
their natural respect for music, partner and self.

Those who are left - the ones continuing with classes - are often to
teachers the successes, but to tango are actually the rejects. No
surprise that teacher finds it hard to inject a class of rejects into
the milongas. They'll be far happier remaining in the twilight world of
the tango classroom, all the way up to "advanced". Or even to "teacher".

Chris

Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:12:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

How many times have you heard girls say:
"Just give me a good partner and I can follow anything - even the most complicated steps."
Or- "A girl doesn't have to know very much about dancing. That's the man's business."
The answer is: Buck-passing isn't any better in dancing than in anything else. Ballroom dancing is definitely a give-and-take affair in which each partner should
contribute to the other's pleasure. And the minute a girl accepts an invitation to step
on the dance floor, she assumes an equal share of the responsibility.

The above is from page 24 in the 1947 Revised Edition of "How to Become A Good
Dancer" by Arthur Murray. Substitute Argentine Tango for "Ballroom" of course.

P.S. No mention of West Coast Swing, Western Swing, Sophisticated Swing or Rock
and Roll Dancing in this edition! But there is a seciton on Jitterbug and Lindy Hop.

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:27:14 +0800
From: Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

I hate to see teachers get rapped for sharing their own versions of
pedagogical
learning structure. At least Keith is honest enough to put his outline
on the web
for public scrutiny, and students who don't agree with his methodology
should
just vote with their feet. It is narrow-minded to leap from a course
outline to
the conclusion that it won't work... the honest truth is that teacher
transmits
much more as a role model than by his words alone.

There is no Gold Standard for teaching tango, only one teacher's opinion
of the
Right way versus another teacher's. Don't ignore the fact that the
characteristics
of the students affect the approach as well --- once upon a time, the
education
system in Asia was criticized as being rote learning and uncreative, but
today
Asian students consistently score higher in mathematics and sciences
than their
Western counterparts.

I prefer any critic of Keith's methodology to offer constructive ideas for
improving the teaching experience, if they have any.

One idea I have seen some teachers adopt successfully is the use of cycles
of modules. It works like this: the teacher plans a syllabus of 5-8
monthly
themes, and makes the student go through the entire syllabus several times.
Although the students may become bored the subsequent rounds, they
would have developed stronger techniques and greater body control,
making all the difference.

Kace
tangosingapore


Chris, UK wrote:

> Keith of The Hong Kong Tango Academy, (www.tangohk.com) asked:
>
>> What gave you such a negative view of tango instructors?
>>
>
> There are teachers that I admire and respect, mostly for their
> one-to-one teaching. And there are teachers of whom I have a negative
> view, including class instructors who say they're teaching social tango
> but in fact are teaching stuff such as your:
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20050205050606/tangohk.com/tango_figures.htm
>
> Taking a syllabus of figures and changing the labels Bronze, Silver, and
> Gold to Beginner, Intermediate etc. does not magically make it
> appropriate for learning social tango.

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:07:47 -0400
From: "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: keith@tangohk.com, tl2@chrisjj.com, tango-l@mit.edu

The test for any method lies in the results. The goal of teaching tango
(or any social dance) should be to produce people who can confidently go
out and enjoy an evening of social dance, in our case, to a milonga.

Keith, how long is before your students feel confident enough to dance at a
milonga? At what point in your curriculum?

Chris,
What would you propose be taught before someone is prepared for a milonga?
How long should it take?

Anyone/Everyone else?
It seems we are doing some things, using some approaches, that too often
produces permanent tango students, or worse, frustrated drop-outs.
Dancers, what teaching approach worked best to prepare you for the milonga?


My question all along has been - What are we doing, what can we do, that
results in social tango dancers that can confidently go out to milongas
with reasonably basic skills to enjoy the evening?


WBSmith





-----------------

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:31 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?


Keith of The Hong Kong Tango Academy, (www.tangohk.com) asked:

> What gave you such a negative view of tango instructors?

There are teachers that I admire and respect, mostly for their
one-to-one teaching. And there are teachers of whom I have a negative
view, including class instructors who say they're teaching social tango
but in fact are teaching stuff such as your:

https://web.archive.org/web/20050205050606/tangohk.com/tango_figures.htm

Taking a syllabus of figures and changing the labels Bronze, Silver, and
Gold to Beginner, Intermediate etc. does not magically make it
appropriate for learning social tango.

in particular, teaching beginners ochoes as #2, progressing to "Medio
Giro [Half Turn] to Right with Sacadas [Displacement] (i) Man LF entry
(ii) Man RF entry with Pencil" even before they've reached intermediate
does a great disservice to them and to the community, in my opinion.

Yes, I've heard the excuses. And I have sympathy for teachers honest
enough to admit, like Yale Tango Club here recently, that failing to
serve beginners wanting Stuff risks losing them to a teacher that does.

But the bottom line is that the end result is not social tango. It is
anti-social tango.

Chris











-------- Original Message --------

*Subject:* [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
*From:* "Keith" <keith@tangohk.com>
*To:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:46:53 -0400

Hi Everybody,

Chris must have had a traumatic experience with Tango instuctors to be
so cynical and to despise them so much.

With my partner I teach a beginner and improver tango class every Friday
from 7.30 to 10.00pm. The class morphs from beginner to improver
somewhere in the middle, depending on the students. It's very relaxed
and beginners can stay on for the improver class for free and improvers
can join the beginner class for free.

The class is followed by a milonga from 10.00pm to 1.00am and costs
HK$50 or about US$6.50. However, anyone from the class can stay on for
the milonga for just HK$10, that's about US$1.30 and includes as much
red and white wine as you can drink. I think you'll agree it's a pretty
good deal and the idea, obviously, is to get my students into a milonga
as quickly as possible. Maybe they'll just watch or, with the help of
the more advanced dancers, they'll have a go. We have a big school with
lots of space so the beginners don't get in the way too much. We try to
keep the whole thing as relaxed, informal and friendly as possible.

Every tango teacher I've ever met wants his students on the dance floor
- Chris, why else do you think we teach tango? What gave you such a
negative view of tango instructors?

Best Regards to All,
Keith McNab

Lois asked:

So how does a teacher get her students to a milonga if they don't
think they're ready?

Chris replied:

You could find out by signing-up for Keith's beginners' lessons...

But he could probably tell you the answer for free: she doesn't. The
issue is not how a teacher can get pupils to go, but what has the
teacher done/not done in the first place such that they don't want to.

I credit teachers with very little influence over individual pupils.

But a lot over the group. It seems to me the average class-based course
soon expels those that have an affinity for tango, when either they find
they can dance and would rather do that than classes, or that they can't
stand the frustration of the class teaching model's incompatibility with
their natural respect for music, partner and self.

Those who are left - the ones continuing with classes - are often to
teachers the successes, but to tango are actually the rejects. No
surprise that teacher finds it hard to inject a class of rejects into
the milongas. They'll be far happier remaining in the twilight world of
the tango classroom, all the way up to "advanced". Or even to "teacher".

Chris






mail2web - Check your email from the web at
https://mail2web.com/ .

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:29:20 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

> My question all along has been - What are we doing, what can we do, that
> results in social tango dancers that can confidently go out to milongas
> with reasonably basic skills to enjoy the evening?

What are "reasonably basic skills" for them, people can only find out by
trying them out at a milonga. How the others react to them depends on who
else is at the milonga. Rule of thumb: beginners should probably go early in
the evening. Confidence comes with practise and experience. For a woman it
is much easier to go to a ,milongas as a beginner. There will always be
someone who is ready to show her a thing or two and give her a good time. A
man should really wait until he knows how to eat least walk around the dance
floor with salidas with some sort of basic connection to their partner. I
have seen too many men who spend almost the entire evening sitting shyly on
the bench because they don't dare to venture out there to this song (which
they don't know either, probably, because they are not listening to CDs
privately, doing their homework). And they sit there staring at people's
feet (!) wondering how they do this. That is how I can tell. Because the
professional dancers, the visiting organisers of other milongas who just
want to meet friends or distribute flyers for their next event don't stare-
they just sit, talk to people, enjoy their drink when they don't feel like
dancing.

>

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:22:28 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

I feel it is very unfair of you to be so angry at teachers for this -
teachers are the ones who have to deal with students who come to them
with these problems.

You think you're very frustrated - think about my level of frustration
when students come to me to advance their tango, but they report with no
frame, no embrace, and without the ability to walk in close embrace. Yet
they know front ochos, molinetes, giros, secadas - all executed badly.
When I tell them they have to start over with the walk, and they storm
out and tell people what a bad teacher I am, do you think that makes me
happy? So that student doesn't stay, and goes back to learning from
videos, or from some partners, or just stops classes completely and uses
what he or she has. Is the teacher responsible? Do you know what it's
like to have a student beg to learn some fancy move and try to hold them
back for their own good? Then hear that they feel you're not teaching
them anything because you want them to spend more on classes?

I get angry at teachers who teach students things without technique,
too, but I do try to temper it with a little understanding. I sympathize
with the teacher who just gives students what they want - it's so much
easier!

Lois Donnay
Minneapolis

-----Original Message-----

From: Chris, UK [mailto:tl2@chrisjj.com]
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 6:31 PM
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

Keith of The Hong Kong Tango Academy, (www.tangohk.com) asked:

> What gave you such a negative view of tango instructors?

There are teachers that I admire and respect, mostly for their
one-to-one teaching. And there are teachers of whom I have a negative
view, including class instructors who say they're teaching social tango
but in fact are teaching stuff such as your:

https://web.archive.org/web/20050205050606/tangohk.com/tango_figures.htm

Taking a syllabus of figures and changing the labels Bronze, Silver, and

Gold to Beginner, Intermediate etc. does not magically make it
appropriate for learning social tango.

in particular, teaching beginners ochoes as #2, progressing to "Medio
Giro [Half Turn] to Right with Sacadas [Displacement] (i) Man LF entry
(ii) Man RF entry with Pencil" even before they've reached intermediate
does a great disservice to them and to the community, in my opinion.

Yes, I've heard the excuses. And I have sympathy for teachers honest
enough to admit, like Yale Tango Club here recently, that failing to
serve beginners wanting Stuff risks losing them to a teacher that does.

But the bottom line is that the end result is not social tango. It is
anti-social tango.

Chris

-------- Original Message --------

*Subject:* [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
*From:* "Keith" <keith@tangohk.com>
*To:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:46:53 -0400

Hi Everybody,

Chris must have had a traumatic experience with Tango instuctors to be
so cynical and to despise them so much.

With my partner I teach a beginner and improver tango class every Friday

from 7.30 to 10.00pm. The class morphs from beginner to improver
somewhere in the middle, depending on the students. It's very relaxed
and beginners can stay on for the improver class for free and improvers
can join the beginner class for free.

The class is followed by a milonga from 10.00pm to 1.00am and costs
HK$50 or about US$6.50. However, anyone from the class can stay on for
the milonga for just HK$10, that's about US$1.30 and includes as much
red and white wine as you can drink. I think you'll agree it's a pretty
good deal and the idea, obviously, is to get my students into a milonga
as quickly as possible. Maybe they'll just watch or, with the help of
the more advanced dancers, they'll have a go. We have a big school with
lots of space so the beginners don't get in the way too much. We try to
keep the whole thing as relaxed, informal and friendly as possible.

Every tango teacher I've ever met wants his students on the dance floor
- Chris, why else do you think we teach tango? What gave you such a
negative view of tango instructors?

Best Regards to All,
Keith McNab

Lois asked:

So how does a teacher get her students to a milonga if they don't
think they're ready?

Chris replied:

You could find out by signing-up for Keith's beginners' lessons...

But he could probably tell you the answer for free: she doesn't. The
issue is not how a teacher can get pupils to go, but what has the
teacher done/not done in the first place such that they don't want to.

I credit teachers with very little influence over individual pupils.

But a lot over the group. It seems to me the average class-based course
soon expels those that have an affinity for tango, when either they find

they can dance and would rather do that than classes, or that they can't

stand the frustration of the class teaching model's incompatibility with

their natural respect for music, partner and self.

Those who are left - the ones continuing with classes - are often to
teachers the successes, but to tango are actually the rejects. No
surprise that teacher finds it hard to inject a class of rejects into
the milongas. They'll be far happier remaining in the twilight world of
the tango classroom, all the way up to "advanced". Or even to "teacher".

Chris

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:59 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg> wrote:

> Keith is honest enough to put his outline on the web for public
> scrutiny

And likewise I've put my judgement on it up for public scrutiny. Fair, no?

> and students who don't agree with his methodology should just vote
> with their feet.

So, teachers may promote their methods in public but dancers should keep
any disagreement private?

> I prefer any critic of Keith's methodology to offer constructive
> ideas for improving the teaching experience, if they have any.

I have no ideas for improving the teaching experience.

But for improving the /learning/ experience, here's one: for beginners,
instead of choreographed sequences like https://tinyurl.com/lmoks, teach
improvisation - something not mentioned at all that I can see in this
course description, but essential to social tango.

Chris

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:59 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

WBSmith wrote:

> The test for any method lies in the results.

Absolutely. My judgement of the methods that teach beginners 10-step
sequences is based on experiencing the results - couples turned in to
robotic wrecking machines.

> Chris, What would you propose be taught before someone is prepared
> for a milonga?

If you're asking about my personal preference, then the question is
"What, for me to want to dance with or near them at a milonga".

For a girl, nothing. For a guy, just as Keith E says:

I show men how to start, walk the ronda, stop, avoid a traffic problem.

That's all the teaching that's needed to start dancing well.

> How long should it take?

As long as it takes.

Thanks for your constructive post.

Chris









-------- Original Message --------

*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
*From:* "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
*To:* keith@tangohk.com, tl2@chrisjj.com, tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:07:47 -0400

The test for any method lies in the results. The goal of teaching tango
(or any social dance) should be to produce people who can confidently go
out and enjoy an evening of social dance, in our case, to a milonga.

Keith, how long is before your students feel confident enough to dance at a
milonga? At what point in your curriculum?

Chris,
What would you propose be taught before someone is prepared for a milonga?
How long should it take?

Anyone/Everyone else?
It seems we are doing some things, using some approaches, that too often
produces permanent tango students, or worse, frustrated drop-outs.
Dancers, what teaching approach worked best to prepare you for the milonga?


My question all along has been - What are we doing, what can we do, that
results in social tango dancers that can confidently go out to milongas
with reasonably basic skills to enjoy the evening?


WBSmith





-----------------

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:31 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?


Keith of The Hong Kong Tango Academy, (www.tangohk.com) asked:

> What gave you such a negative view of tango instructors?

There are teachers that I admire and respect, mostly for their
one-to-one teaching. And there are teachers of whom I have a negative
view, including class instructors who say they're teaching social tango
but in fact are teaching stuff such as your:

https://web.archive.org/web/20050205050606/tangohk.com/tango_figures.htm

Taking a syllabus of figures and changing the labels Bronze, Silver, and
Gold to Beginner, Intermediate etc. does not magically make it
appropriate for learning social tango.

in particular, teaching beginners ochoes as #2, progressing to "Medio
Giro [Half Turn] to Right with Sacadas [Displacement] (i) Man LF entry
(ii) Man RF entry with Pencil" even before they've reached intermediate
does a great disservice to them and to the community, in my opinion.

Yes, I've heard the excuses. And I have sympathy for teachers honest
enough to admit, like Yale Tango Club here recently, that failing to
serve beginners wanting Stuff risks losing them to a teacher that does.

But the bottom line is that the end result is not social tango. It is
anti-social tango.

Chris











-------- Original Message --------

*Subject:* [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
*From:* "Keith" <keith@tangohk.com>
*To:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:46:53 -0400

Hi Everybody,

Chris must have had a traumatic experience with Tango instuctors to be
so cynical and to despise them so much.

With my partner I teach a beginner and improver tango class every Friday
from 7.30 to 10.00pm. The class morphs from beginner to improver
somewhere in the middle, depending on the students. It's very relaxed
and beginners can stay on for the improver class for free and improvers
can join the beginner class for free.

The class is followed by a milonga from 10.00pm to 1.00am and costs
HK$50 or about US$6.50. However, anyone from the class can stay on for
the milonga for just HK$10, that's about US$1.30 and includes as much
red and white wine as you can drink. I think you'll agree it's a pretty
good deal and the idea, obviously, is to get my students into a milonga
as quickly as possible. Maybe they'll just watch or, with the help of
the more advanced dancers, they'll have a go. We have a big school with
lots of space so the beginners don't get in the way too much. We try to
keep the whole thing as relaxed, informal and friendly as possible.

Every tango teacher I've ever met wants his students on the dance floor
- Chris, why else do you think we teach tango? What gave you such a
negative view of tango instructors?

Best Regards to All,
Keith McNab

Lois asked:

So how does a teacher get her students to a milonga if they don't
think they're ready?

Chris replied:

You could find out by signing-up for Keith's beginners' lessons...

But he could probably tell you the answer for free: she doesn't. The
issue is not how a teacher can get pupils to go, but what has the
teacher done/not done in the first place such that they don't want to.

I credit teachers with very little influence over individual pupils.

But a lot over the group. It seems to me the average class-based course
soon expels those that have an affinity for tango, when either they find
they can dance and would rather do that than classes, or that they can't
stand the frustration of the class teaching model's incompatibility with
their natural respect for music, partner and self.

Those who are left - the ones continuing with classes - are often to
teachers the successes, but to tango are actually the rejects. No
surprise that teacher finds it hard to inject a class of rejects into
the milongas. They'll be far happier remaining in the twilight world of
the tango classroom, all the way up to "advanced". Or even to "teacher".

Chris






mail2web - Check your email from the web at
https://mail2web.com/ .

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:40:01 +0800
From: Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?

Chris, UK wrote:

> Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>> I prefer any critic of Keith's methodology to offer constructive
>> ideas for improving the teaching experience, if they have any.
>>
>
> I have no ideas for improving the teaching experience.
> But for improving the /learning/ experience, here's one:

There is a big difference between a Teaching experience and a Learning
experience.

- "Teaching" is an active process when a teacher communicates his source
material
to the class, and interactively modifies it to account for the
student's ability to absorb.

- "Learning" is the process happening inside the student to assimilate
new information.
It may or may not involve an active teacher --- you can learn even if
nobody is teaching.
On the other hand, the best teacher cannot teach you if you don't
absorb the material.

Since your beef with Keith is with his curriculum, you are splitting
hair over the Teaching
experience and not the Learning experience.

Only the student can help himself get a better learning experience. If
group classes
are not right for him, he can select from the many options available in
the market, like
one-on-one tuition, videos, books, immersion tours, etc.

Every teacher's challenge is that, once taken on the responsibility to
mentor a recalcitrant
student like yourself, he has to find ways to discharge his duty.

This always begins with a teaching outline, unless you plan to improvise
in class the way
you improvise on the dance floor! I suppose such a strategy might even
work better
if the "follower knows nothing"...

I will not comment further on this thread, since it is going nowhere,
except to say
Keith's work as a teacher and what he has done for the Hong Kong
community the
past decade earn my respect.

Kace
tangosingapore.com

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:00 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Does It Take to Dance Tango?
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

"Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>

> I feel it is very unfair of you to be so angry at teachers for this

Please do not mistake being critical for being angry.

> teachers are the ones who have to deal with students who come to them
> with these problems.

Why not leave that to the teachers responsible for creating the problems
in the first place?

You choose whether each student is worth the money he/she pays for
lessons. If you don't want to teach a particular student, just don't.

> think about my level of frustration when students come to me to
> advance their tango ... they know front ochos, molinetes, giros,
> secadas - all executed badly. ... When I tell them they have to start
> over with the walk, and they storm out

Sometimes one has to just accept that some problems are beyond one's
ability to fix. Or would take up time, effort and energy better spend on
other students.

Quite a few teachers I know see each loss of an impossible student to
the competition as a good thing - it benefits the rest of the class and
raises the effectiveness of teaching.

> I sympathize with the teacher who just gives students what they
> want - it's so much easier!

Thing is Lois, what goes around comes around.

Chris






-------- Original Message --------

*Subject:* [Tango-L] Social vs. Stage Classes
*From:* "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
*To:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Wed, 23 Aug 2006 08:07:19 -0400

Several instructors here have expressed understandable frustration with
students whose expectations are to be taught more flamboyant steps.

Has anyone considered restructuring the format of the classes they offer?
Instead of the usual beginner, intermediate, and advanced, perhaps a more
useful and appropriate divide would be between social and
stage/performance. The performance class could be told that the steps
they
would learn were not danced in social settings and that they would not see
them nor would they be appropriate in milongas. If that was what the
student was interested in, then so be it. Instructors could teach them
steps until their money ran out.

Social classes could be directly focused on producing dancers for
milongas,
with topics such as walking, connection, floorcraft, and musicality.
Turnover might be higher (hopefully) among these students but if the
instructor was being successful at producing good milonga dancers, word of
mouth would insure a ready supply of new students.

Has anyone tried this type of approach? (With perhaps a very basic 101
class directed at all students new to dancing could also be offered prior
to taking either track.) I also suspect some students might end up taking
both tracks.

There is some precedence for this approach. In my experience, in Lindy
swing, aerial classes (jumps, drops, twirls, etc.) are always taught
completely separate from social dancing. In every aerial class I have
attended, the instructors have emphasized that the steps are not for
social
dances, only for jams or performances. Most have a requirement for a
certain level of proficiency at social dancing before attending.

WBSmith


mail2web - Check your email from the web at
https://mail2web.com/ .