4738  What's the difference between a tango and a

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:18:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Ming Mar <ming_mar@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] What's the difference between a tango and a
milonga?
To: tango-l@mit.edu

I pose this question to the musicians on this mailing
list.

The difference isn't speed. If it were, then all the
tangos that Roberto Firpo played became milongas. (He
played them really fast.) But nobody considers them
milongas.

Is it the rhythm? A lot of milongas, from "Milonga
Sentimental" to "Tango Negro," share the same rhythm,
viz.: quarter note, quarter rest, eighth note, eighth
note, quarter note. But "Taquito militar" doesn't use
that rhythm.

I thought I'd ask this question now because I noticed
that there were two musicians actively participating,
one a university-educated musician and the other a
member of a working tango band.



Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs.

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:44:26 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What's the difference between a tango and a
milonga?
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Ming Mar wrote:

>I pose this question to the musicians on this mailing
>list.
>
>The difference isn't speed. If it were, then all the
>tangos that Roberto Firpo played became milongas. (He
>played them really fast.) But nobody considers them
>milongas.
>
>
>

Historically, as I understand it milonga came first and tango came out
of slower milongas. There is a bit of blurriness in some of the older
music and there are at least a couple where it is hard to tell which is
which.

>Is it the rhythm? A lot of milongas, from "Milonga
>Sentimental" to "Tango Negro," share the same rhythm,
>viz.: quarter note, quarter rest, eighth note, eighth
>note, quarter note. But "Taquito militar" doesn't use
>that rhythm.
>
>

Partly. A milonga has (usually the bass) giving a repeated rhythm, like
many popular dances. The lack of percussion (aside from piano) tends to
somewhat soften the effect so it is not so brazen as, say, salsa. It is
not the rhythm but its insistence that makes you want to start moving in
a good milonga. Tango usually doesn't just grind a long this way, being
more lyrical and having more emphasis on suspensions for dramatic effect.

There are also form differences. None of these as set in stone, but a
tango (and vals) often has ternary ABA form (e.g. Bahia Blanca -- di
Sarli was a very tidy architect too, I might add). Which just means the
first part of the piece is repeated as the last part. A milonga really
is a song that while falling into two (sometimes 3) sections, just is
repeated several times as e.g. AB,AB,AB, etc. often ending with a coda
(a short section whose sole purpose is to bring the piece to a close).
There are often strong key relations so that some of the sections are in
in the parallel major or minor too. If you go to
https://www.todotango.com and look under musicians you can find a lot of
sheet music (I don't who runs this site but Thank You!) for your
favorite pieces.

I've taken to writing a few of these simply because it forces me to come
to grips with how they function. While not the path most people can
take, I can tell it has made me much more aware of a lot of what goes on
in the music, for which I'm sure my partners will be grateful. There not
being too many people to practice with in my neck of the woods, I've got
to extend my horizons as best I can...

>I thought I'd ask this question now because I noticed
>that there were two musicians actively participating,
>one a university-educated musician
>

That's be me, the music geek. ;D But any more I'm just an amateur. Not
sure what sort of an answer you are looking for or what your background is.

>and the other a
>member of a working tango band.
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Music Unlimited
>Access over 1 million songs.
>
>
>
>

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:33:05 -0500
From: "Jacob Eggers" <eggers@brandeis.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What's the difference between a tango and a
milonga?
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<dfa4cf020701291433i7009c7b0nab0d850b2cefd3e3@mail.gmail.com>

I have a more subtle question now, what the difference between a
milonga and a candombe. There are many songs that clearly fall
somewhere in between, so this might not be a question that'll get a
satisfactory answer, but it might spur on some good discussion.

jacob

On 1/29/07, Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net> wrote:

> Ming Mar wrote:
>
> >I pose this question to the musicians on this mailing
> >list.
> >
> >The difference isn't speed. If it were, then all the
> >tangos that Roberto Firpo played became milongas. (He
> >played them really fast.) But nobody considers them
> >milongas.
> >
> >
> >
> Historically, as I understand it milonga came first and tango came out
> of slower milongas. There is a bit of blurriness in some of the older
> music and there are at least a couple where it is hard to tell which is
> which.
>
> >Is it the rhythm? A lot of milongas, from "Milonga
> >Sentimental" to "Tango Negro," share the same rhythm,
> >viz.: quarter note, quarter rest, eighth note, eighth
> >note, quarter note. But "Taquito militar" doesn't use
> >that rhythm.
> >
> >
> Partly. A milonga has (usually the bass) giving a repeated rhythm, like
> many popular dances. The lack of percussion (aside from piano) tends to
> somewhat soften the effect so it is not so brazen as, say, salsa. It is
> not the rhythm but its insistence that makes you want to start moving in
> a good milonga. Tango usually doesn't just grind a long this way, being
> more lyrical and having more emphasis on suspensions for dramatic effect.
>
> There are also form differences. None of these as set in stone, but a
> tango (and vals) often has ternary ABA form (e.g. Bahia Blanca -- di
> Sarli was a very tidy architect too, I might add). Which just means the
> first part of the piece is repeated as the last part. A milonga really
> is a song that while falling into two (sometimes 3) sections, just is
> repeated several times as e.g. AB,AB,AB, etc. often ending with a coda
> (a short section whose sole purpose is to bring the piece to a close).
> There are often strong key relations so that some of the sections are in
> in the parallel major or minor too. If you go to
> https://www.todotango.com and look under musicians you can find a lot of
> sheet music (I don't who runs this site but Thank You!) for your
> favorite pieces.
>
> I've taken to writing a few of these simply because it forces me to come
> to grips with how they function. While not the path most people can
> take, I can tell it has made me much more aware of a lot of what goes on
> in the music, for which I'm sure my partners will be grateful. There not
> being too many people to practice with in my neck of the woods, I've got
> to extend my horizons as best I can...
>
> >I thought I'd ask this question now because I noticed
> >that there were two musicians actively participating,
> >one a university-educated musician
> >
> That's be me, the music geek. ;D But any more I'm just an amateur. Not
> sure what sort of an answer you are looking for or what your background is.
>
> >and the other a
> >member of a working tango band.
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Music Unlimited
> >Access over 1 million songs.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:27:27 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What's the difference between a tango and a
milonga?
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>


On Jan 29, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Jeff Gaynor wrote:

> Ming Mar wrote:
>
>> I pose this question to the musicians on this mailing
>> list.
>>
>> The difference isn't speed. If it were, then all the
>> tangos that Roberto Firpo played became milongas. (He
>> played them really fast.) But nobody considers them
>> milongas.
>>
> Historically, as I understand it milonga came first and tango came out
> of slower milongas. There is a bit of blurriness in some of the older
> music and there are at least a couple where it is hard to tell
> which is
> which.

No, this is commonly repeated misinformation.

Prior to the 1900s existed a dance/music/rhythm called milonga, out
of which tango developed. Modern milongas are something very
different from that pre-tango milonga.

Tangos of 1910 - 1920s have a march-like rhythm, and tempos that are
variable, but typically faster than the Golden Era. There was no
clear distinction between milongas and tangos.

In the 1930s tangos slowed down and became rhythmically more
complicated. milongas sped up and had rhythms from candombe put into
them, sort of a nostalgia for the african tradition.

Listen to the lyrics and you get some of the same nostalgia for the
african, which at times can be pretty stereotypical.

For example, translate "La Mulateada" by Di Sarli.... "con la mulata
mas feder"

Or translate the lyricas of "Alhucena" by Demare. They also refer to
africans inthe lyrics and the music uses an candombe-sounding rhythm
in a tango-like way.


Ever notice that a BMW engine is tuned to a candombe rhythm?

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:50:28 -0500
From: "Neil Liveakos" <neil.liveakos@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What's the difference between a tango and a
milonga?
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<737e9d3f0701291950p2f9c1d7ake2278cc443973edd@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/29/07, Neil Liveakos <neil.liveakos@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Jacob wrote:
> I have a more subtle question now, what the difference between a
> milonga and a candombe.
>
> The answer is drums.
>
>
> On 1/29/07, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Jan 29, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Jeff Gaynor wrote:
> >
> > > Ming Mar wrote:
> > >
> > >> I pose this question to the musicians on this mailing
> > >> list.
> > >>
> > >> The difference isn't speed. If it were, then all the
> > >> tangos that Roberto Firpo played became milongas. (He
> > >> played them really fast.) But nobody considers them
> > >> milongas.
> > >>
> > > Historically, as I understand it milonga came first and tango came out
> > > of slower milongas. There is a bit of blurriness in some of the older
> > > music and there are at least a couple where it is hard to tell
> > > which is
> > > which.
> >
> > No, this is commonly repeated misinformation.
> >
> > Prior to the 1900s existed a dance/music/rhythm called milonga, out
> > of which tango developed. Modern milongas are something very
> > different from that pre-tango milonga.
> >
> > Tangos of 1910 - 1920s have a march-like rhythm, and tempos that are
> > variable, but typically faster than the Golden Era. There was no
> > clear distinction between milongas and tangos.
> >
> > In the 1930s tangos slowed down and became rhythmically more
> > complicated. milongas sped up and had rhythms from candombe put into
> > them, sort of a nostalgia for the african tradition.
> >
> > Listen to the lyrics and you get some of the same nostalgia for the
> > african, which at times can be pretty stereotypical.
> >
> > For example, translate "La Mulateada" by Di Sarli.... "con la mulata
> > mas feder"
> >
> > Or translate the lyricas of "Alhucena" by Demare. They also refer to
> > africans inthe lyrics and the music uses an candombe-sounding rhythm
> > in a tango-like way.
> >
> >
> > Ever notice that a BMW engine is tuned to a candombe rhythm?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Neil Liveakos
> https://milonga.us

--
Neil Liveakos
https://milonga.us

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:51:55 -0500
From: "Neil Liveakos" <neil.liveakos@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What's the difference between a tango and a
milonga?
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<737e9d3f0701291951u583c7d7do2b707420ee38a1e0@mail.gmail.com>

Jacob wrote:
I have a more subtle question now, what the difference between a
milonga and a candombe.

The answer is drums.




On 1/29/07, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Jan 29, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Jeff Gaynor wrote:
>
> > Ming Mar wrote:
> >
> >> I pose this question to the musicians on this mailing
> >> list.
> >>
> >> The difference isn't speed. If it were, then all the
> >> tangos that Roberto Firpo played became milongas. (He
> >> played them really fast.) But nobody considers them
> >> milongas.
> >>
> > Historically, as I understand it milonga came first and tango came out
> > of slower milongas. There is a bit of blurriness in some of the older
> > music and there are at least a couple where it is hard to tell
> > which is
> > which.
>
> No, this is commonly repeated misinformation.
>
> Prior to the 1900s existed a dance/music/rhythm called milonga, out
> of which tango developed. Modern milongas are something very
> different from that pre-tango milonga.
>
> Tangos of 1910 - 1920s have a march-like rhythm, and tempos that are
> variable, but typically faster than the Golden Era. There was no
> clear distinction between milongas and tangos.
>
> In the 1930s tangos slowed down and became rhythmically more
> complicated. milongas sped up and had rhythms from candombe put into
> them, sort of a nostalgia for the african tradition.
>
> Listen to the lyrics and you get some of the same nostalgia for the
> african, which at times can be pretty stereotypical.
>
> For example, translate "La Mulateada" by Di Sarli.... "con la mulata
> mas feder"
>
> Or translate the lyricas of "Alhucena" by Demare. They also refer to
> africans inthe lyrics and the music uses an candombe-sounding rhythm
> in a tango-like way.
>
>
> Ever notice that a BMW engine is tuned to a candombe rhythm?
>
>
>
>
>

--
Neil Liveakos
https://milonga.us