6173  Where does the lead leave off and the follow

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Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 09:44:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Where does the lead leave off and the follow
begin??
To: tango-l@mit.edu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9IORQeCmsA
?
Jorge Firpo, here, is?giving a demo at his class. The woman is not even named
and so it is probably an advanced student.? I really like this dance. It is plain to
see that Jorge has the chispa that keeps a dance interesting and dynamic..
There is no question about that..but I'm wondering to what extent is the woman
contributing because she looks darn good, too!? Would half the women in the?class
have been able to deliver as good or nearly as good an experience??? Is this a good
reason for a lead?to be very deliberate about whom?one chooses to dance with?
The dance dosen't look that complicated but the 'attack' by both partners is superb.
..Any thoughts? ..{of course I will await and ignore the put-downs that will be posted
by Tango snobs who think that the $1,200 I?have?already spent on lessons isn't nearly
enough to keep their economy chugging along.}
?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9IORQeCmsA







Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:40:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Where does the lead leave off and the follow
begin??
To: tango-l@mit.edu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O6GBd0V4dM
?
Here is another of Jorge Firpo and a student dancing in a class.
It seems to answer my original question..the dance is good but not 'as good'.
The song is just as dynamic but the dancers seem to lose a little of their edge
when compared to the preceeding post's video.
I am guessing that the student isn't as sure of herself and so there is hesitation
and weak responses..Jorge senses her difficulty and so is taking his foot off of
the accelerator so to speak. ....Do you agree?
Even his smile at the end is as if to say a reassuring.."See you can do it!"
This guy is a good example of how to put the uuummph in Tango.
?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O6GBd0V4dM
?







Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:42:55 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Where does the lead leave off and the follow
begin??
To: tango-l@mit.edu


--- On Sun, 11/23/08, Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Jorge Firpo, here, is?giving a demo at his class. The
> woman is not even named and so it is probably an advanced student.? I really like this dance. It is plain to see that Jorge has the chispa that keeps a dance interesting and dynamic.. There is no question about that..but I'm wondering to what extent is the woman contributing because she looks darn good, too!?


Mario, dude, is it necessary to add snide remarks to your posts? They really take away from your message, which I assume is actually about tango.

As to your question, the dance is a partnership and the quality of the woman's dance frees up the man to dance as he pleases. A woman can also inspire the man to dance. The reverse is also true.

Trini de Pittsburgh












Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:05:50 -0500
From: Martin Waxman <martin@waxman.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Where does the lead leave off and the follow
begin??
To: tango-l@mit.edu

At 12:44 PM 11/23/2008, Mario wrote:

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9IORQeCmsA
>Jorge Firpo, here, is giving a demo at his class. ...of course I
>will await and ignore the put-downs that will be posted
>by Tango snobs who think that the $1,200 I have already spent on
>lessons isn't nearly
>enough to keep their economy chugging along.}

The amount of money you've spent on lessons has nothing to do with
what you actually learned, what was useful in the lessons,
what you remembered correctly, or whether you got your money's worth.

Why is Firpo's left hand shielding his head from the overhead lights?
Or, is that the Statue of Liberty embrace?

The lead leaves off after the mark; the follow begins when the lead
is interpreted/understood.







Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:27:18 -0500
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Where does the lead leave off and the follow
begin??
To: <sopelote@yahoo.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>

Mario:
You speculate too much. It's not relevant why the woman isn't named. What do you mean about the woman contributing. She contributes with every step. The dance looks good because both are trying to please the other.
I don't dance with my left arm above my shoulder as Jorge does. My muscles would get tired and then it would become a struggle to dance. This is a question of style and NOT a question of right vs. wrong. Everybody has their own style.

As far your question if half the women in the class could deliver as good or nearly as good an experience, that depends on the couple. This is a dance between two individuals who have different skills. Some are more expressive emotionally than others. It's ridiculous to think that dancers are as interchangeable as light bulbs; dancing with one partner is identical to dancing with another.


Michael
Washington, DC

I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message -----



Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 12:44 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Where does the lead leave off and the follow begin??


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9IORQeCmsA

Jorge Firpo, here, is giving a demo at his class. The woman is not even named
and so it is probably an advanced student. It is plain to see that Jorge has the chispa that keeps a dance interesting and dynamic..There is no question about that..but I'm wondering to what extent is the woman
contributing because she looks darn good, too! Would half the women in the class
have been able to deliver as good or nearly as good an experience??? Is this a good
reason for a lead to be very deliberate about whom one chooses to dance with?







Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:06:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Where does the lead leave off and the follow
begin??
To: tango-l@mit.edu

> From: Martin Waxman <martin@waxman.net>
>
> The lead leaves off after the mark; the follow begins when the lead
> is interpreted/understood.
>

I don't fully understand Martin's answer because he uses the words
'mark' and 'lead' in the same sentence and I don't know whether he
uses them with?the same meaning or not.?

In Ballroom,?the man?leads a step or a figure and?the lady
interprets/understands it correctly because of her training and she
dances it exactly as she's been trained to do. This works because
the music has a strict tempo and all the figures are standard and
have been learned and practiced?in every detail. I don't find Tango
anything like that. When does the lead leave off? - almost never, IMHO.
I lead the lady's step from start to finish and then, I lead the next step.
How can it be any other way? Let's take the simplest thing in Tango -
the forward Walk. Yes, I lead her backward step with a forward
projection of my chest and the lady's foot starts to move because she
understands the chest lead. But do I then? 'leave off''.??No, I follow through
and lead her through the full extent of her step and she doesn't put her
foot down until l lead her to do so. Perhaps, this is what Martin means
by 'mark'. The lady then doesn't bring her feet together [collection] to
complete the step until I lead her to do so, all at the exact speed and
timing?that I want.

IMHO, most of the time, and yes there are always exceptions, but
mostly the lady doesn't need to interpret anything. She won't know
exactly what she's actually supposed to do until she's already done it.
We'll, that's my opinion. And if we want to go back to 'pet hates', another
of mine would be 'ladies who try to interpret my lead' rather than waiting
until she knows exactly what I want. I don't want to come across as a
male chauvinist who controls every aspect of the dance. I do give the
lady time to enjoy the things that ladies enjoy but I?also lead the timing
for that - while always listening to the lady, of course.
?
Jack








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