4755 World Championship - Why not?
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:52:34 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] World Championship - Why not?
Hi listeros,
Someone asked whether there is a contest for ballet
dancers. Yes, they are called "auditions". In Argentina,
I imagine they hold auditions for all of those tango shows
down there, so the idea of a competing for prizes would
seem quite natural there. Isn?t it true that tango
competitions have existed for years at the milongas?
Similar to the ones they had in the States during the big
band era. So why not now? Why not on a bigger scale?
Frankly, I hand it to those competitors who have the
gumption to put their tango up for public criticism. That
takes guts. And it shows how proud they are of their
efforts. I think bashing Competition just because of the
idea of it takes away from these dancers efforts. And it?s
not just personal expression but technical skill as well
that is being judged. The latter is certainly worth
exploring. Iif a Competition happened locally where I
could see some really good dancing, I?d go and watch.
I?ve met some terrific dancers and teachers who competed in
Argentina. Richard & Colette of Miami and Oliver Kolke,
currently in NYC. Wonderful people, excellent dancers,
teachers talented enough to be asked back to
Octoberfest/Valentango. And I would never dream of telling
them that their competing in a tournament means jacksquat.
On the contrary, I think it?s great. Some of the comments
on this thread seem to be saying that their efforts were
jacksquat.
Do the competitors really care whether they place 1st, 5th,
or 40th? I really don?t think so. I think they are just
proud to have demonstrated their work to a large audience.
One thing about a Competition is that it encourages you to
work a lot harder on your tango. Is that so bad?
So the real issue is about how a Competition is judged.
Rather than make comparisons with ballroom, perhaps it
would be more productive to emulate, say, ice skating
ratings. I don?t know how the final round is judged, but
are the competitors always judged in a group? Are the top
5, for example, asked to perform individually? I think
that would encourage more unbiased judging just on
technical skill. Let the judges pick the song to help keep
things improvisational.
World-wide competition on Argentine tango is still young,
correct? So, of course there will be bugs in the system.
I hope that with time and experience, these bugs can be
worked out.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 20:32 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Championship - Why not?
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> Do the competitors really care whether they place 1st, 5th,
> or 40th? I really don?t think so.
Earth calling Trini, Earth calling Trini...
--
Chris ;)
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* [Tango-L] World Championship - Why not?
*From:* "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
*Date:* Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:52:34 -0800 (PST)
Hi listeros,
Someone asked whether there is a contest for ballet
dancers. Yes, they are called "auditions". In Argentina,
I imagine they hold auditions for all of those tango shows
down there, so the idea of a competing for prizes would
seem quite natural there. Isn?t it true that tango
competitions have existed for years at the milongas?
Similar to the ones they had in the States during the big
band era. So why not now? Why not on a bigger scale?
Frankly, I hand it to those competitors who have the
gumption to put their tango up for public criticism. That
takes guts. And it shows how proud they are of their
efforts. I think bashing Competition just because of the
idea of it takes away from these dancers efforts. And it?s
not just personal expression but technical skill as well
that is being judged. The latter is certainly worth
exploring. Iif a Competition happened locally where I
could see some really good dancing, I?d go and watch.
I?ve met some terrific dancers and teachers who competed in
Argentina. Richard & Colette of Miami and Oliver Kolke,
currently in NYC. Wonderful people, excellent dancers,
teachers talented enough to be asked back to
Octoberfest/Valentango. And I would never dream of telling
them that their competing in a tournament means jacksquat.
On the contrary, I think it?s great. Some of the comments
on this thread seem to be saying that their efforts were
jacksquat.
Do the competitors really care whether they place 1st, 5th,
or 40th? I really don?t think so. I think they are just
proud to have demonstrated their work to a large audience.
One thing about a Competition is that it encourages you to
work a lot harder on your tango. Is that so bad?
So the real issue is about how a Competition is judged.
Rather than make comparisons with ballroom, perhaps it
would be more productive to emulate, say, ice skating
ratings. I don?t know how the final round is judged, but
are the competitors always judged in a group? Are the top
5, for example, asked to perform individually? I think
that would encourage more unbiased judging just on
technical skill. Let the judges pick the song to help keep
things improvisational.
World-wide competition on Argentine tango is still young,
correct? So, of course there will be bugs in the system.
I hope that with time and experience, these bugs can be
worked out.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:03:06 +0100
From: "Mauro Casadei" <m_casadei67@tin.it>
Subject: [Tango-L] R: World Championship - Why not?
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Here is my point about why Tango competitions is not my cup of tea.
It all boils down to how we consider tango: in my opinion Tango is an
intimate dance, danced WITH and FOR my partner, NOT for an audience.
The idea of tango as a show for others is already - in my opinion - a
deviation fro the main idea of tango.
Indeed, even the best dancers in the world, give their best when they dance
for themselves rather than constructive a choreography for a show.
The idea of a *competition* goes even further in taking away from tango it's
peculiarity, its magic, the magic that derives from the fact that most of
what happens is within the soul and not in the steps and feet.
"Tango is between one step and another" used to say Gavito, and it is also
my view.
Setting up a competition is certainly PROFESSIONALLY fair to those who make
a living of tango: but it is is like treating tango just as other sports,
which in my view means spoiling the magic of it.
However, this is just my opinion; I know there are plenty of people who just
crave for a "tango skill rating", and who am I to say they are wrong ?
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:37:29 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] R: World Championship - Why not?
To: "Mauro Casadei" <m_casadei67@tin.it>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
> It all boils down to how we consider tango: in my opinion Tango is an
> intimate dance, danced WITH and FOR my partner, NOT for an audience.
>
> Setting up a competition is certainly PROFESSIONALLY fair to those who
make
> a living of tango:
I think, here we have, in a nutshell, what this problem is all about- do the
dancers want to make money or do they have other goals.
Tango has always beena competitive dance, only the goals were different: was
it about competing with the other men, trying to impress the girls? Was it
about selling your tickets as a taxi dancer (which used to be female...) and
making a few tips on the side?
Is it about trying to attract students? Is it about trying to get a tourist
to invest in you, be it for private lessons or whatever else? Is it about
trying to keep your students or make a milonga guest come back next week?
In my observation, as soon as money is involved, tango quickly loses it's
soul. I have seen many men going from being a fun dancer, open, cheerful
flirty, innocent, to being a haughty but burned out gigolo who only dreams
of banknotes when he holds a woman in his arms. And whose dance gets more
and more boring and mechanical, the more often he chooses mediocre but well
heeled (potential) private students as partners rather than those who can
really dance .
Or, a teacher who runs a studio or a milonga, gets so self conscious that he
only dances in milongas now in order to impress the onlookers, and only with
people who are "worth it", in his calculation of time-cost-efficiency, and
no longer dances just to have fun.
Commiting yourself to tango for business reasons is like trying to trap love
in a marriage of reason.
Unless you are as mad about it as Gavito, who, in his sixties, would ask at
10pm:"Where is the nearest milonga ?" after teaching 5 privadas and two
group lessons since morning, you may have to sell your soul....
Astrid
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:50:49 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] R: World Championship - Why not?
To: <atheling@verizon.net>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Anne wrote:
"Movement to music is not a "sport". All dance is "fine art" and, as such,
judgement is personal opinion - qualitative, not quantitative."
Maybe someone would care to define the difference between art and kitsch in
Argentine tango? For those not familiar with the term "kitsch" (every German
knows it) here is an explanation from dictionary.com:
kitsch Pronunciation[kich]
noun something of tawdry design, appearance, or content created to appeal to
popular or undiscriminating taste.
[Origin: 1925?30; < G, deriv. of kitschen to throw together (a work of art)]
?Related forms
kitschy, adjective
Sentimentality or vulgar, often pretentious bad taste, especially in the
arts: "When money tries to buy beauty it tends to purchase a kind of
courteous kitsch" (William H. Gass).
