5613  ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:28:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
To: tango-l@mit.edu


..This is what I?m seeing after 1 1/2 yrs of
Watching YouTube.... Note: The videos watched were mostly of
very proficient dancers doing a close embrace/
milonguero style of dancing in Tango and Vals.
Tango Nuevo and/or a performance dance does not follow these patterns, we are only talking about closed embrace social dancing.

1. 90% of 'walk to the cross' is done in cross footed position.
2. A 10% (or less) is done in parallel footing.
3. Cross footed is also used for the back crosses and back ochos.
4. That's about all you will see done crossed feet but some dancers
use the walk to the cross, back cross , ochos and giros for 90% of their dance.
5. After the (cross footed) walk to the cross is executed, usually there follows: an immediate giro or a few steps in parallel (or a milonga box) and then a giro right or left. This pattern is amazingly similar with most dancers. It seems like THE thing to do after the walk to the cross.
6. All rhythmic patterns are usually danced in parallel position. Witness
the Milonga (song) which is 99% danced parallel feet. I checked with
some students of the old guard Milongueros and they agree that Parallel feet was preferred for the most musical/synchopated passages.
7. The old generation of milongueros (Richard Vidort, etc) danced a lot in parallel position and improvised mainly in it. In looking at the
old guard, some prefer to dance almost entirely in crossed feet for the Tango and Vals while others choose mainly parallel footing for their dances. (Repetitive movements are important in social dancing with random partners.)
8. Walking, outside follow's right, usually signals a cross footed walk to the cross. The cross then always follows a couple of steps later. When walking on the outside right is in parallel footing, there usually is not a walk to the cross but an extended outside walk or a few steps later a box or giro. Only rarely do I see a cross follow in parallel feet. (=1 or 2 a month after watching many videos daily.)
The difference is that cross footed outside right is a signal to walk to
the cross...while in parallel it can mean a giro soon or an extended rhythmic walk.
9. So, walking cross footed means either an immediate walk to the cross or back crosses first (back ochos, too) and then a walk to the cross. .
When a giro or any turn variation exits with the lead walking outside
right in crossed feet, the cross follows immediately.
10. Walking outside follow's left is usually only done for a couple of steps and then the lead crosses in front to go parallel or outside follow's right.
11. The first step in walking for follow or lead is; if forward begin with the left foot, if backward begin with the right foot. If the first step of a dance (or most sequences) is sideways (open), it's always to the leader's left side.
12. When a leader walks outside follow's right in parallel, he usually does a giro before ever reaching the cross. I have only seen the outside parallel go all the way to the cross about once in a zillion (70?) dances.
13. Any synchopation of the walk, with rock steps, etc. thrown in, is always done in parallel footing. (perhaps for the mirroring desired?)
14. Only 3 or 4 patterns; (walk to cross, back crosses, giros, etc.) need
be learned, and made automatic, to be able to improvise and lead an
enjoyable social dance for both partners.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUxVZUtRfA8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX-nunHKNqs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXmek2EfkjI
The above three videos are good examples of the complete dance
done simply, enjoyably and elegantly.
15. Last but not least; the term "Milonguero" (as used here) applies to someone who is dancing socially, has the embrace and Music as THE most important thing happening, during the dance, and would rather feel good than look good (if given the choice).

Well, this is what I've just written down off the top of my head in a few minutes. Any additions, corrections, agreements from others will be enthusiasticly received.
I believe that observations like this are a help in putting together one?s own dance, especially for being able to see the forest thru all the trees...thanks for reading this far.

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:09:02 -0300
From: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
To: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<13176a380904151809v61b9c1b4m30d3ce5a21d28a10@mail.gmail.com>

Mario:
I don?t agree. Whenver the man steps outside the follower?s right, it
usually signals a walk to the cross. The Argentines do it because they
pivot on the left and want to go forward on the same foot. The only
way to do that is a quick weight change to the right. The woman
doesn?t know if the man is on parallel or cross feet. She just feels
him to the side and she wants to get back in front of him.

Michael
Washington, DC
Vacationing in Buenos Aires

Mario wrote:

>
> ..This is what I?m seeing after 1 1/2 yrs of
> Watching YouTube

> 8. Walking, outside follow's right, usually signals a cross footed walk to the cross. The cross then always follows a couple of steps later. When walking on the outside right is in parallel footing, there usually is not a walk to the cross but an extended outside walk or a few steps later a box or giro. Only rarely do I see a cross follow in parallel feet. (=1 or 2 a month after watching many videos daily.)
> The difference is that cross footed outside right is a signal to walk to
> the cross...while in parallel it can mean a giro soon or an extended rhythmic walk.

> 12. When a leader walks outside follow's right in parallel, he usually does a giro before ever reaching the cross. I have only seen the outside parallel go all the way to the cross about once in a zillion (70?) dances.

--
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:54:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube


I agree with Mario. If I'm going to do a linear walk to the cross, I'll ALWAYS do
it in crossed feet. It's just much more comfortable and keeps the lady closer.

If I step outside right in parallel, it's because I intend to do something else
before reaching the cross position. There are many options.

Jack

> From: Michael tangomaniac@cavtel.net

> I don?t agree. >
>
> Mario wrote:
> >
> > 12. When a leader walks outside follow's right in parallel, he usually does a
> giro before ever reaching the cross. I have only seen the outside parallel go
> all the way to the cross about once in a zillion (70?) dances.

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:03:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube



--- On Wed, 4/15/09, Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com> wrote:

> 15. Last but not least; the term "Milonguero" (as
> used here) applies to someone who is dancing socially, has
> the embrace and Music as THE most important thing happening,
> during the dance, and would rather feel good than look good
> (if given the choice).

You've obviously spent some time looking at this and I appreciate your observations. It's interesting that you noted the music as being important for the milonguero. That's one of the reasons cross system is used so much. Have you also noticed that followers are usually led to cross on the half-beat? Musically, it all goes with the quick-quick-slow timing.

Cross systems allows more figures than parallel but there are still certain types of communication that work best in parallel. Part of the reason one might say that tango "is dirty". ;-)

Trini de Pittsburgh

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:37:31 -0400
From: Richard Isaacs <RBIsaacs@attglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

Mario -

While I am sure your statistics are right, virtually everything
tango-related on YouTube is a demonstration, which means a performance
of sorts that would, as seen in your three examples below, grind a
line of dance to a standstill.

Your statistics therefore, like the videos themselves, though
doubtless of value to the aspiring performer, are neither enlightening
nor helpful to the social dancer. But the promulgation of these videos
does explain why one so rarely sees an actual functioning line of
dance.

Regards/Richard

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:43:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube

> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos@yahoo.com

>It's interesting that you noted the music as being important for
> the milonguero.? That's one of the reasons cross system is used so much.?

I'm surprised to hear you say that and I'm not sure if?I really agree. As Mario noted:

"6. All rhythmic patterns are usually danced in parallel position.? I checked with
some students of the old guard Milongueros and they agree that Parallel feet
was preferred for the most musical/synchopated passages."

I've always thought that the crossed system was used when walking outside
partner as it was then easier to maintain the chest-to-chest contact that is a
requirement of milonguero style. But I do agree that using double-time steps
to change from parallel to crossed and vice-versa can certainly add to his own
musicality.

Jack

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:02:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] ..1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube


--- On Fri, 4/17/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos@yahoo.com
>
> >It's interesting that you noted the music as being
> important for
> > the milonguero.? That's one of the reasons cross
> system is used so much.?
>
> I'm surprised to hear you say that and I'm not sure
> if?I really agree.

Let me clarify. I think that cross system is used to enhance the musicality as opposed to the fact that it allows more figures. I did not say that cross system was used just as much or more than parallel. Musically, walking to the cross in parallel is rather bland.

Trini de Pittsburgh

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:30:40 -0300
From: Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Like others no doubt, I have been somewhat skeptical of Mario's "learn
by YouTube" approach to Tango. But a year and a half later (has it
really been that long?), he comes up with a not-so-bad summary of
observations. It occurs to me that probably few people have watched with
the same degree of scrutiny as many videos (or even live performances
for that matter) as has Mario, so there is no doubt value to the
approach and a good "summary record" created of the observations.

The results are still clearly limited by Mario's relative newness to
Tango as well as the inherent limitations of analysis by watching
videos, but it nonetheless made an interesting read and provided food
for thought. I look forward to future versions; until then, here are my
comments (with the caveat that I have watched almost no Tango on YouTube):

> 1. 90% of 'walk to the cross' is done in cross footed position.
> 2. A 10% (or less) is done in parallel footing.

Consistent with my own observations and preferences. It is more
comfortable in a close embrace, as one does not have to "get past" ones
partner as much, and is also more accommodating of wider-girth
partner(s). It is also more interesting to do owing to its asymmetry
(both spatial and temporal).

> 3. Cross footed is also used for the back crosses and back ochos.

I am not sure what a "back cross" is, but I suppose I'd agree with the
comment about back ochos, although there are so many options for the man
while he leads the woman to a back ocho, I would feel a little less
confident about this being as blanket a statement.

> 4. That's about all you will see done crossed feet but some dancers
> use the walk to the cross, back cross , ochos and giros for 90% of their dance.

Add ocho cortado (not really an ocho despite the name), and really there
isn't much else that cannot be considered a variation on or
embellishment of one of the above. In other words yes, I agree with
Mario's observations (Michael had made a similar one in his Buenos Aires
report) that there are really very few elements that are fundamental to
Tango (but those are REALLY fundamental).

> 5. After the (cross footed) walk to the cross is executed, usually there follows: an immediate giro or a few steps in parallel (or a milonga box) and then a giro right or left. This pattern is amazingly similar with most dancers. It seems like THE thing to do after the walk to the cross.

Well, there are clearly other things one can do after the cruzada that
fit in with the "milonguero style" (easy example: side step to man's
left), but it's quite believable that one of the above "usually follow."

> 6. All rhythmic patterns are usually danced in parallel position. Witness
> the Milonga (song) which is 99% danced parallel feet. I checked with
> some students of the old guard Milongueros and they agree that Parallel feet was preferred for the most musical/synchopated passages.

I don't understand this one. What is a "rhythmic pattern"? True enough
that Milonga is a "parallel-foot" dance (where "cross-foot" is an
exception for effect, or perhaps for certain syncopations where the man
is taking 2 steps to the woman's one). But the last statement that
parallel feet are preferred (in Tango) for the "most musical" passages
really does not compute.

> 7. The old generation of milongueros (Richard Vidort, etc) danced a lot in parallel position and improvised mainly in it. In looking at the
> old guard, some prefer to dance almost entirely in crossed feet for the Tango and Vals while others choose mainly parallel footing for their dances. (Repetitive movements are important in social dancing with random partners.)

Now you've really lost me. It reminds me of the occasional woman who
asks chirpily when we take dance position, "Are we dancing open or
closed?" I never thought of that as something needing clarification or
commitment before the dance started. But if she were to ask, "Are we
dancing parallel feet or crossed feet?" I would be truly baffled. The
two are, of course, not at all mutually exclusive and in Tango there is
a constant transition between the two. It is to me somewhat artificial
even to make that distinction, other than as a teaching aid in a
beginners' class. Unlike many other social partner dances (including
Milonga), Tango has considerably less built-in symmetry in the steps
that the man and woman take (which of course is a good part of the
reason for its complexity and appeal).

> 8. Walking, outside follow's right, usually signals a cross footed walk to the cross. The cross then always follows a couple of steps later. When walking on the outside right is in parallel footing, there usually is not a walk to the cross but an extended outside walk or a few steps later a box or giro. Only rarely do I see a cross follow in parallel feet. (=1 or 2 a month after watching many videos daily.)
> The difference is that cross footed outside right is a signal to walk to
> the cross...while in parallel it can mean a giro soon or an extended rhythmic walk.

Here is where a weakness in the "learn by YouTube" approach is more
evident. For reasons that Michael pointed out, a cross follows from the
implicit lead that results from the offset position created by the man
stepping outside the woman's right, and her "wanting to get back in
front of him." If he is in parallel feet outside her, the offset
position is even stronger and the (implicit) lead for her to cross even
stronger.

What Mario is seeing is perhaps that if he steps outside her in parallel
feet, he actually does so to lead something other than a cross and this
other lead (by body position or rotation, perhaps) is not as evident in
a video if you don't already know what to look for. The observation may
be correct in those videos ("a step outside the woman's right is usually
not followed by a cross"), but that would only be because the natural
cross that would follow was superseded by another lead.

> 9. So, walking cross footed means either an immediate walk to the cross or back crosses first (back ochos, too) and then a walk to the cross. .
> When a giro or any turn variation exits with the lead walking outside
> right in crossed feet, the cross follows immediately.

Perhaps mostly true in terms of what usually happens, but I wouldn't use
this as a "rule" for teaching (though admittedly Mario was not actually
proposing that), because it incorrectly focusses on the man's foot
placement as the lead for a woman rather than on what the woman feels
*as a result of the body position caused by the foot placement*, and
possibly other lead elements.

> 10. Walking outside follow's left is usually only done for a couple of steps and then the lead crosses in front to go parallel or outside follow's right.

True, it's a less "natural" position and hence not usually prolonged.

> 11. The first step in walking for follow or lead is; if forward begin with the left foot, if backward begin with the right foot. If the first step of a dance (or most sequences) is sideways (open), it's always to the leader's left side.

Again, that's usually what happens, and a good rule of thumb if the man
is ambiguous in where he puts the woman's weight at the start of the
dance, but really this should be led, or at least the "default" above
confirmed by the man positioning the woman's weight consistent with the
above before taking the first step.

> 12. When a leader walks outside follow's right in parallel, he usually does a giro before ever reaching the cross. I have only seen the outside parallel go all the way to the cross about once in a zillion (70?) dances.

Again, I would guess this to be a "correlation vs. causation" error. The
man doesn't lead the giro BECAUSE he happened to chose an outside walk
in parallel, but rather he INTENDED to do a giro and hence walked
outside in parallel to position himself for it. But it's nice to know
that a parallel outside to cross is that rare (1 in 70 sounds about as
often as I would do it).

> 13. Any synchopation of the walk, with rock steps, etc. thrown in, is always done in parallel footing. (perhaps for the mirroring desired?)

Rock step, maybe, but "any syncopation" I think not; after all, one
often uses a syncopation to get into cross position.

> 14. Only 3 or 4 patterns; (walk to cross, back crosses, giros, etc.) need
> be learned, and made automatic, to be able to improvise and lead an
> enjoyable social dance for both partners.

Absolutely correct. I would only take issue with the "and made
automatic" part. It should be learned to the point that it comes
naturally to and is danced fluidly by the man, but should never "become
automatic" for the woman in the sense of being thought of as a sequence
(self-propelled "ocho machine" alert ...).

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUxVZUtRfA8
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX-nunHKNqs
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXmek2EfkjI
> The above three videos are good examples of the complete dance
> done simply, enjoyably and elegantly.

I'd tend to agree for the first two more than for the last (and
congratulations--you got me to see THREE YouTube videos in the same day).

> 15. Last but not least; the term "Milonguero" (as used here) applies to someone who is dancing socially, has the embrace and Music as THE most important thing happening, during the dance, and would rather feel good than look good (if given the choice).

Not a bad definition (and even allows for non-Argentine "milongueros"
who cannot whisper, at a moment's notice, piropos excerpted from the the
lyrics of song then playing!). I would argue, however, that the music
and embrace, important as they are, would be the SECOND most important
things, the most important (two) things being the comfort and protection
of the woman, and the consideration of and respect for the others on the
dance floor.


Shahrukh

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:23:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube


I've always understood that there are only 2 'rhythmic patterns' generally used
in social Tango. One is the 'slow, slow', stepping on beats 1 and 3 and the other
is 'quick, quick, slow' stepping on beats 1, 2 and 3.

I'd be interested to learn of other 'rhythmic patterns'? besides the 1, 3 and
the 1, 2, 3. For example, does anyone double-time on 3, 4, 1? I've tried it
but it never feels quite right.

Jack

?
?

> From: Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh@shahrukhmerchant.com>
>
>
> I don't understand this one. What is a "rhythmic pattern"?
>

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:40:34 -0400
From: "David" <dchester@charter.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] 1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Jack,

I will sometimes do the quick-quick slow on the 3,4,1 beats. It depends on
the phrase in the song as to whether it makes any sense though. You can't
(or at least I don't recommended trying to) force it in just anywhere. BTW,
on rare occasions I'll also do a quick-quick quick-quick slow pattern. I'm
still experimenting with this though.


Mario,

I'm enjoying seeing you get some vindication on your video study. While
more times than not, I tried to stay out of the debates with the naysayers
(although occasionally I've stepped into it), I've found video study to
greatly enhance my learning of tango, and I know my progress has been
greatly enhanced by it. Sometimes people say something can't be done, when
the truth is a lot closer to, THEY don't know how to do it.

Take care,

David

From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1 1/2 yrs of watching YouTube


I've always understood that there are only 2 'rhythmic patterns' generally
used
in social Tango. One is the 'slow, slow', stepping on beats 1 and 3 and the
other
is 'quick, quick, slow' stepping on beats 1, 2 and 3.

I'd be interested to learn of other 'rhythmic patterns'? besides the 1, 3
and
the 1, 2, 3. For example, does anyone double-time on 3, 4, 1? I've tried it
but it never feels quite right.

Jack