1688 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre heighth difference
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:32:19 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre heighth difference
Anyone out there run into challenges dancing with someone way different in physical height? I'm dancing with a friend 1 foot shorter (apologies to user's of the metric system!, we're stuck with funny, magic numbers here) & I thought everything was going well & she was having problems with her axis or something. I've tried sinking down into my knees one dance & that wasn't much fun.
R
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:07:39 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre heighth difference
Rick from Portland wrote:
>Anyone out there run into challenges dancing with someone
>way different in physical height?
At 1.88 meters (6'2") in my socks, I have danced with more than several
women who are at least 30.5 cm (1 foot) shorter than I am. It is a bit of
a challenge.
Things that I found important:
1) Making sure that I remain upright--not collapsing my frame down to my
partner or on top of her;
2) Making sure that I hold her right hand (and my left) at a height that
is comfortable for her;
3) Lowering my right arm to embrace her without dropping my right
shoulder;
4) Her holding my right arm with her left hand at a height that is
comfortable for her.
5) Continuing to mark the steps with my body--rather than my legs.
6) Recognizing that differences in the follower's weight affects some
single-pivot turns.
7) Not expecting her to see what is behind me.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
headed to Denver for the Milonguero Tango Weekend
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:04:03 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre heighth difference
> Anyone out there run into challenges dancing with someone way different in
physical height? I'm dancing with a friend 1 foot shorter (apologies to
user's of the metric system!, we're stuck with funny, magic numbers here) &
I thought everything was going well & she was having problems with her axis
or something. I've tried sinking down into my knees one dance & that wasn't
much fun.
As a general rule, I can tell you from my own experiences that it is very
important that the man adjust his frame to every woman he is dancing with,
to make it fit her particular height. I have seen short women being forced
to dance with their right arm raised above their shoulder, which looked
extremely uncomfortable. I have also danced with men, who were used to
dancing with their short partner and would not readjust their frame to my
(Northern European average) height. This meant, their arm went around my
back at an uncomfortably low point near my waist, which they tried to pull
close to them, like they would pull a woman close to their chest. For me,
this just meant, I could hardly move. The worst experience for me was, when
a man used to dancing with his short partner in a leaning triangular frame
would not adjust to my height, and ended up leaning down on my spine, and
then lead me into ochos and things. He almost gave me a crushed disc without
even trying, nor being aware of it. I could not dance for two hours after
that, because my back hurt with every move. (I had been very tired at the
time, and my backmuscles were already tense, which makes one more injury
prone).
Astrid
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:07:27 -0400
From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre heighth difference
I love to dance with tall women and short women. I learn more about my own
posture mistakes when I do that. To be a truly great dancer you should be
able to enjoy dancing with any person, not just one the "perfect" height.
There are different problems with each. Dancing with women shorter than me,
I find that I tend to hunch over. When I dance with women taller than me,
I find that they tend to hunch over, and also, I sometimes have a larger
blind spot, making floor craft harder.
You should take care to look for these and other problems when dancing, and
remind yourself to correct them.
It should be noted that posture problems are in fact symptoms of problems
you have all the time, they are just more pronounced when dancing with
someone of that height.
By correcting them when you dance with that person, you will improve your
posture as a whole, and find yourself dancing with better posture all the
time, even when you are dancing with someone of the "perfect" height.
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:58:44 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre heighth difference
Thanks to Steve, Astrid & A. Coleman for their very helpful advice publicly & also, to everyone who responded privately. One thing this list excels idea is ideas & info, not to mention wisdom, insight & lots of other useful stuff. No doubt, collectively we're brilliant & wise in the extreme ;-) And I do believe, dancing cheek to cheek with someone special is magical/transcendental. I wish I could very my height right there!
Rick
PS: Man, habits are so unconscious sometimes. I purposely put the TP roll on the "wrong" way [spooling from the bottom ;-)] & its the same thing every morning, @#%!!# expecting it the right way & having to adjust. This thing goes on & on & on in other places. Something to be said for having a little conscious distance from oneself to watch these things. ok off to work go...
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:03:49 -0700
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre heighth
Steve wrote:
"At 1.88 meters (6'2") in my socks, I have danced with
more than several
women who are at least 30.5 cm (1 foot) shorter than I
am. It is a bit of
a challenge."
What about the other way around? When the woman is
much taller than a man? I have a friend who's an
amazon at 5'11", and she constantly complains how hard
it is for her to dance with shorter men.
Astrid makes a good point about analyzing the problem,
but how do you communicate to the leader what he's
doing wrong?
Luda
=====
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:46:08 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre heighth
When the woman is
> much taller than a man? I have a friend who's an
> amazon at 5'11", and she constantly complains how hard
> it is for her to dance with shorter men.
>
> Astrid makes a good point about analyzing the problem,
> but how do you communicate to the leader what he's
> doing wrong?
Why do you automatically assume, that it is the man who is doing something
wrong?
I think, it is much harder for the taller person to dance with a good
posture.
I remember dancing with Gavito in a privada. We embraced, and after we had
danced about one or two steps, he already said:"You should never sacrifice
your elegant posture for a man shorter than you !"
Thing is, if you dance with someone much shorter, it makes it so much more
difficult to hold your balance. You can no longer expect the other person to
provide any kind of support or stability for you. No, you are actually
struggling a lot of the time, not to fall over or collapse on top of the
poor guy (high heels don't certainly help with this, they were made for the
shorter person).
Since the chests are not touching (your chest is more likely to be near
his/her throat), there is also not much connection, and it gets more
difficult to transmit leading signals. In a misguided effort to establish
some sort of connection, you may try to bend down to the other person. Your
shoulders hunch over, you lower your chin or your forehead towards your
partner's face. In doing this, you unwittingly loose even more of your
balance, while ruining your posture, and, actually, weaken the connection
even further.
I have found that if the man, no matter how short (there are plenty of
Japanese men who are below 1,70m tall, some even below 1,60m) has a strong
axis and leads with his body rather than the arms, and I keep my head up
high and my back straight, while trying not to think about what we may look
like together, dancing together and feeling his lead is no problem.
from a long suffering follower
(we are now also getting younger men in their thirties in tango,and they are
a lot taller than the older Japanese tangueros who have loved tango since
they were 18, during the fifties. Yayyy! I can actually wear 3,5" heels and
not be made an outcast now.)
Astrid
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:32:32 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre heighth
Astrid writes:
> Luda writes:
> > Astrid makes a good point about analyzing the problem,
> > but how do you communicate to the leader what he's
> > doing wrong?
>
> Why do you automatically assume, that it is the man who is
> doing something wrong?
Perhaps from reading your postings over the years,
Astrid? :)
Huck
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:42:28 -0700
From: "St. Thomas, Carlene" <CarleneStThomas@DWT.COM>
Subject: Re: 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre height
Okay, I've got to jump in here.
I agree with Astrid that you should never "sacrifice your elegant posture
for a man shorter than you !"
Here's where I take issue...
Astrid: "Thing is, if you dance with someone much shorter, it makes it so
much more difficult to hold your balance. You can no longer expect the other
person to provide any kind of support or stability for you. No, you are
actually struggling a lot of the time, not to fall over or collapse on top
of the poor guy (high heels don't certainly help with this, they were made
for the shorter person)."
Why are you looking to the lead for support and/or stability? I was taught
that a follower must maintain her balance/axis at all times. A lead should
be able to leave the embrace and step away from a follow without her falling
over. I don't know of any leads that would want to spend a set shoving a
follow around the floor.
Yes, it's sweet to dance with someone who is a close match height wise. But
in this imperfect world, the "amazons" will dance with the "hobbits". If we
could all stand on our own axis and lead/follow with our centers (which
isn't the chest, by the way), we wouldn't be falling all over each other.
Oh, and one more thing. Why in the world do you care about how the two of
you look together? ("...while trying not to think about what we may look
like together,...") If you're having a wonderful dance, who gives a rip
about what anybody else thinks! Isn't the core of tango about the
dance/music and not looks/appearances?
Carlene
Portland, Oregon
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:46:08 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre heighth
When the woman is
> much taller than a man? I have a friend who's an
> amazon at 5'11", and she constantly complains how hard
> it is for her to dance with shorter men.
>
> Astrid makes a good point about analyzing the problem,
> but how do you communicate to the leader what he's
> doing wrong?
Why do you automatically assume, that it is the man who is doing something
wrong? I think, it is much harder for the taller person to dance with a good
posture. I remember dancing with Gavito in a privada. We embraced, and after
we had danced about one or two steps, he already said:"You should never
sacrifice your elegant posture for a man shorter than you !" Thing is, if
you dance with someone much shorter, it makes it so much more difficult to
hold your balance. You can no longer expect the other person to provide any
kind of support or stability for you. No, you are actually struggling a lot
of the time, not to fall over or collapse on top of the poor guy (high heels
don't certainly help with this, they were made for the shorter person).
Since the chests are not touching (your chest is more likely to be near
his/her throat), there is also not much connection, and it gets more
difficult to transmit leading signals. In a misguided effort to establish
some sort of connection, you may try to bend down to the other person. Your
shoulders hunch over, you lower your chin or your forehead towards your
partner's face. In doing this, you unwittingly loose even more of your
balance, while ruining your posture, and, actually, weaken the connection
even further. I have found that if the man, no matter how short (there are
plenty of Japanese men who are below 1,70m tall, some even below 1,60m) has
a strong axis and leads with his body rather than the arms, and I keep my
head up high and my back straight, while trying not to think about what we
may look like together, dancing together and feeling his lead is no problem.
from a long suffering follower
(we are now also getting younger men in their thirties in tango,and they are
a lot taller than the older Japanese tangueros who have loved tango since
they were 18, during the fifties. Yayyy! I can actually wear 3,5" heels and
not be made an outcast now.)
Astrid
Date: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:42 am
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre height
> Okay, I've got to jump in here.
>
> I agree with Astrid that you should never "sacrifice your elegant
> posturefor a man shorter than you !"
>
> Here's where I take issue...
>
> Astrid: "Thing is, if you dance with someone much shorter, it
> makes it so
> much more difficult to hold your balance. You can no longer expect
> the other
> person to provide any kind of support or stability for you. No,
> you are
> actually struggling a lot of the time, not to fall over or
> collapse on top
> of the poor guy (high heels don't certainly help with this, they
> were made
> for the shorter person)."
>
> Why are you looking to the lead for support and/or stability? I
> was taught
> that a follower must maintain her balance/axis at all times. A
> lead should
> be able to leave the embrace and step away from a follow without
> her falling
> over. I don't know of any leads that would want to spend a set
> shoving a
> follow around the floor.
>
> Yes, it's sweet to dance with someone who is a close match height
> wise. But
> in this imperfect world, the "amazons" will dance with the
> "hobbits". If we
> could all stand on our own axis and lead/follow with our centers
> (whichisn't the chest, by the way), we wouldn't be falling all
> over each other.
>
> Oh, and one more thing. Why in the world do you care about how the
> two of
> you look together? ("...while trying not to think about what we
> may look
> like together,...") If you're having a wonderful dance, who gives
> a rip
> about what anybody else thinks! Isn't the core of tango about the
> dance/music and not looks/appearances?
>
>
> Carlene
> Portland, Oregon
>
>
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:46:08 +0900
> From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
> Subject: Re: 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre heighth
>
> When the woman is
> > much taller than a man? I have a friend who's an
> > amazon at 5'11", and she constantly complains how hard
> > it is for her to dance with shorter men.
> >
> > Astrid makes a good point about analyzing the problem,
> > but how do you communicate to the leader what he's
> > doing wrong?
>
> Why do you automatically assume, that it is the man who is doing
> somethingwrong? I think, it is much harder for the taller person
> to dance with a good
> posture. I remember dancing with Gavito in a privada. We embraced,
> and after
> we had danced about one or two steps, he already said:"You should
> neversacrifice your elegant posture for a man shorter than you !"
> Thing is, if
> you dance with someone much shorter, it makes it so much more
> difficult to
> hold your balance. You can no longer expect the other person to
> provide any
> kind of support or stability for you. No, you are actually
> struggling a lot
> of the time, not to fall over or collapse on top of the poor guy
> (high heels
> don't certainly help with this, they were made for the shorter
> person).Since the chests are not touching (your chest is more
> likely to be near
> his/her throat), there is also not much connection, and it gets more
> difficult to transmit leading signals. In a misguided effort to
> establishsome sort of connection, you may try to bend down to the
> other person. Your
> shoulders hunch over, you lower your chin or your forehead towards
> yourpartner's face. In doing this, you unwittingly loose even more
> of your
> balance, while ruining your posture, and, actually, weaken the
> connectioneven further. I have found that if the man, no matter
> how short (there are
> plenty of Japanese men who are below 1,70m tall, some even below
> 1,60m) has
> a strong axis and leads with his body rather than the arms, and I
> keep my
> head up high and my back straight, while trying not to think about
> what we
> may look like together, dancing together and feeling his lead is
> no problem.
>
> from a long suffering follower
>
> (we are now also getting younger men in their thirties in
> tango,and they are
> a lot taller than the older Japanese tangueros who have loved
> tango since
> they were 18, during the fifties. Yayyy! I can actually wear 3,5"
> heels and
> not be made an outcast now.)
>
> Astrid
>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:14:26 -0700
From: James Stein <alfred_russel@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre height
Okay, I've got to jump in here, too; but to take
issue with your comments and to defend Astrid
(not that she's not capable of defending herself
:-)
You say:
"... a follower must maintain her
balance/axisat all times ..."
but this is an ideal.
I doubt that even one follower in two thousand
never goes off balance. Even followers with such
excellent balance that they would never lose it
when dancing alone must contend with leaders,
even the best of whom sometimes err in ways
that hamper their follower.
In my opinion, a good leader quickly, and often
automatically, adjusts the connection to assist
follower's balance whenever he feels she may be,
perhaps only very slightly, losing it. (It also
often works the other way, with her helping him.)
Furthermore, such help may be to counteract his
own error a moment earlier, having just disturbed
her balance without so intending.
Astrid's comment was about following a leader
significantly shorter than she. If you consider
the physics of it, a short person can more easily
disturb a tall person's balance than support it.
Thus, in the case under discussion, the short
leader is less able do his share to maintain the
couple's balance than is a taller leader.
I found Astrid's ideas clearly stated, as usual.
She was speaking about the real world, I think,
and not an ideal one where all dancers are
above average.
Errors abound in tango venues I frequent.
I am most aware of my own errors,
which are abundant.
---
At significant risk of being misunderstood, I will
here claim that many tango movements are achieved
when the leader judiciously manipulates the
follower's balance. I offer this as a
counter-example to the maxim "a follower must
maintain her balance/axis at all times."
-- Alfred
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:57:13 +0000
From: Karenna LaMonica <KarennaLa@COX.NET>
Subject: 1 foot, 12 inch, 0.3048 metre heighth difference
My partner and I have a vast height difference. I am 5' and he is 6'2" or
3". It is a true challenge. We have had fewer difficulties with open
embrace but there are some steps we have abandoned because we felt we simply
could not accommodate ourselves to each other enough to make them work. I
do feel like I'm pulled off my precarious axis often.
When I hug my partner in close embrace, my head comes just below his chest
and just above his belly. I rest my head there, to the side, and hope he
doesn't take steps that are too big for me. It is difficult for him to keep
from bending down to me and or for me to keep from trying to stretch my
torso up to him in a way it cannot go.
Any other suggestions about accommodating to height difference would be much
appreciated.
We are headed to Denver for more lessons, Practicas and our first Milongas.
Can't wait.
Karenna from Tulsa
