5029 5 years.
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 10:17:16 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] 5 years.
Sean, are you really serious claiming you can make a decent dancer out of a
man in 6 months?
Well, yes, I know women who already know the dance even before taking the
first lesson. They just need to pick up the details. But generally
speaking...
Igor
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 10:48:47 -0700
From: m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 5 years.
Igor
a.) define 'decent' ?
And b.) I am liviing proof that it can be done inside of six months.
Actually truth be told I was socially competent in 4.5 months at the
outside.
M i l e s
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Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 14:49:56 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 5 years.
Igor and Miles,
>>From your previous posts, I believe neither of you has yet danced in the milongas of
BsAs. Correct me if I'm wrong but, if not, you should reserve your[high] opinions of
your dancing until you do so. Miles, I suspect you're in for a rude awakening when
you do finally venture to Argentina. You wouldn't be the first to have his confidence
totally shattered. And I don't care how many festivals you've been to in the USA. The
unforgiving ladies of BsAs really expect you to know your stuff and are none-too-polite
if you don't. As for Igor, I've read your posts and your unconventional views on learning
and dancing Tango. The ladies of San Francisco might accept it but I think BsAs will eat
you alive.
Keith, HK
On Mon Jul 16 1:48 , m i l e s sent:
>Igor
>
>a.) define 'decent' ?
>
>And b.) I am liviing proof that it can be done inside of six months.
>Actually truth be told I was socially competent in 4.5 months at the
>outside.
>
>M i l e s
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 14:46:29 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 5 years.
I spent 8 weeks in BA last June, July and August.
In the beginning, everyone needs to adjust to BA. I did indeed run into
one of those unforgiving types, who actually had earned the right to be
judgemental (she is very sick now, I hear). As I recall, my lead needed
considerable firming up and I needed to slow way down, faults common
enough everywhere in the world. In the end I was doing well enough.
That being said, I've seen Miles dance. He'll do fine, probably better
than I did. I never went anywhere in BA harder to navigate than the
Friday night Mercury Cafe milonga with 200+ people in it.
Actually, I will go out on a limb and say that if you stay in the lanes,
navigation in Denver is better than many BA milongas. There aren't
nearly as many inconsiderate jerks rushing forwards and backwards in the
line of dance to open up 3 to 4 times the amount of space the rest have
to be content with.
Christopher
On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 14:49:56 -0400, "Keith" <keith@tangohk.com> said:
> Igor and Miles,
>
> >From your previous posts, I believe neither of you has yet danced in the milongas of
> BsAs. Correct me if I'm wrong but, if not, you should reserve your[high]
> opinions of
> your dancing until you do so. Miles, I suspect you're in for a rude
> awakening when
> you do finally venture to Argentina. You wouldn't be the first to have
> his confidence
> totally shattered. And I don't care how many festivals you've been to in
> the USA. The
> unforgiving ladies of BsAs really expect you to know your stuff and are
> none-too-polite
> if you don't. As for Igor, I've read your posts and your unconventional
> views on learning
> and dancing Tango. The ladies of San Francisco might accept it but I
> think BsAs will eat
> you alive.
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
> On Mon Jul 16 1:48 , m i l e s sent:
>
> >Igor
> >
> >a.) define 'decent' ?
> >
> >And b.) I am liviing proof that it can be done inside of six months.
> >Actually truth be told I was socially competent in 4.5 months at the
> >outside.
> >
> >M i l e s
>
>
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 21:52:14 +0200
From: "Christian L?then" <christian.luethen@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 5 years.
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Sure you can!
6 months dancing every night (7/7) is dancing 180 times in half a year!
Compared with those who'd just dance once a week these would take 3,5 years to arrive at the dacing experience. And those just dancing once a month: 15 years!
Asking someone "who long have you been dancing for" to find out about his/her dancing level is the most stupid way to start a conversation on the dance floor. Those who ask me, even if they actually want to compliment me, I can't take to seriously any more.
Enjoy dancing, no matter the number of times before!
Christian
> Sean, are you really serious claiming you can make a decent dancer out of
> a
> man in 6 months?
>
> Well, yes, I know women who already know the dance even before taking the
> first lesson. They just need to pick up the details. But generally
> speaking...
>
> Igor
>
>
>
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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 03:19:18 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 5 years.
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Ron,
I have wrote a long letter trying to explain why I think 5 year is a good
estimation for a dance which can be called tango.
Then I thought for a moment and as a result I am not sending it.
Yes, you are right, Sean and Ron. It is possible to learn dancing decent
tango in 6 months. I have my own proofs of that.
Igor.
PS
Keith,
Yes, you are right ! After 7 years of dancing I do not think I am ready for
Buenos Aires. That is the reason why I have not been there yet.
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:32:07 +0200
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 5 years.
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Dear Keith,
Keith> BsAs. Correct me if I'm wrong but, if not, you should reserve your[high] opinions of
Keith> your dancing until you do so. Miles, I suspect you're in for a rude awakening when
Keith> you do finally venture to Argentina. You wouldn't be the first to have his confidence
Keith> totally shattered. And I don't care how many festivals you've been to in the USA. The
Keith> unforgiving ladies of BsAs really expect you to know your stuff and are none-too-polite
Keith> if you don't. As for Igor, I've read your posts and your
Keith> unconventional views on learning
Keith> and dancing Tango. The ladies of San Francisco might accept it but I think BsAs will eat
Keith> you alive.
I find your general discussion style a bit aggressive for any forum, however, you are quite right about the "unforgiving" nature of Argentine women. I am a tango professional with over 15 years of dancing behind me. In Argentina -, people usually thought I am a local (I guess I look like an Argentine) so I could - at least - avoid the "foreigners are bad dancers" stereotype, nevertheless, it wasn't easy for me to get dances in the beginning (cabeceo isn't just having your eyes pop out when you want to dance with someone) and found that dancers of different styles will not mix easily, so if you learnt quite a lot of nuevo, expect that the "traditional" folks will turn you down. Nuevo dancers are more open to others, but they expect a soft lead, excellent navigation skills and great rythm and a lot of play with innocent-looking but sometimes quite complex moves on that four squarefoots you have. You need more than a basic knowledge of the steps for some basic combinations to e!
ven have a dance.
IMO While all the above is true, it is only true to BsAs. In every other part of the world people are different, cultural background is different, there is no _real_ need for cabeceo ("everyone knows everyone else" scenario), women are eager to dance with anyone (tango dancers are not so many) and this Argentine mechanism to sort out the less better dancers*** is considered extremely rude. So, mediocre level dancing in the general public, too much show/less subtleness remains because there is no mechanism in place to change it! Personal motivation to become a really good dancer is only present a 1-5% of the general public (It is higher if you are Italian... :) ) and even including the teacher's personal charm will not change the situation considerably, as people usually don't quit their jobs or devote all their free time for dancing.
***cabeceo (selection by women, actively punishing forced (direct) invitations - of course, except if you are one of those every woman wants to dance with), coupled with tandas and cortinas (where a cortina means that you MUST leave the floor and change partner - of course, if you are experiencing so much chemistry that you both want to have another go that's maybe OK, make sure the girls boyfriend is not near though), the "right" to leave during a dance (no mercy-dances), women being extremely picky and dancing with only good dancers even if they have to sit all night.
This system is quite well developed, obviously it builds on general gender-related behaviour. Guys compete, girls choose. Simple, but works. Modern European/N-American society tends to use the "equal rights" (for men/women) principle in everyday life, which leads to the elimination of this... (Ladies, tell me which one of you would gladly tell a guy who is eager, nice, but is a no-go, that he has no chance? How would you tell it? (my experience: a no from a women here is usually all too soft, even if it meant stonewalling) Guys, which one of you normally want a situation where you have to work truly hard to just break even against a lot of other men, who has more experience, more control and more success in what they do, on a field where you have little or no experience, and is obviously not something you learn to do overnight and facing a plethora of disappointing experiences?)
Cheers,
Aron
