5031 6 months
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 19:40:09 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] 6 months
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cff24c340707151740m61645f68tc2b52438bd4f7745@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/15/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>
> Sean, are you really serious claiming you can make a decent dancer out of
> a
> man in 6 months?
>
> Well, yes, I know women who already know the dance even before taking the
> first lesson. They just need to pick up the details. But generally
> speaking...
>
> Igor
Each year we get 1 or 2 young men (in their 20s) who become competent social
tango dancers (close embrace) within 6 months. I believe it is possible for
some men to achieve basic skills of partner connection, connection with the
music, and navigation, all while having a good balanced walk, within 6
months. Their repertoire is mosly walking, rock steps (some turning),
several variations on the ocho cortado and basic back ochos. Their dance is
simple but with good basic tango skills. On the other hand if instruction
focuses on teaching giros, ganchos, boleos, volcadas, colgadas and the like,
you can have dancers with 2-3 years tango experience who still can't walk
with grace and balance to the music.
Ron
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 17:59:22 -0700
From: m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Ron,
Well said!
M i l e s.
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 11:38:34 +0200
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
My 2 cents here...
Illinois> Each year we get 1 or 2 young men (in their 20s) who become competent social
Illinois> tango dancers (close embrace) within 6 months. I believe it is possible for
It depends quite a bit on the motivation of the students. In Hungary, learning dancing is at the same level as going to the movies or eating out, which means that many people simply doesn't have any motivation to actually _learn_ tango well or even to use it at a milonga. I have to work very hard to create an environment on my classes that makes people at least curious about a milonga, so they continue dancing after the first few months and practice outside my 90-minutes-per-week tango classes.
Illinois> months. Their repertoire is mosly walking, rock steps (some turning),
Illinois> several variations on the ocho cortado and basic back ochos.
I'd be out of business, if people learnt only this in half a year (even though wouldn't ever teach colgadas in the first year - counting the average 3-5 hours per week tango involvement). The tango scene in Hungary was dominated by stage dancers during its initial expansion, so people rarely dance simple at the milongas (you can't even try: some women don't even understand if you lead steps less than half a meter...). This makes dancers of beginner-level knowledge feel completely incompetent and drives them towards fancy stuff. A great number of beginners choose to take lessons with stage dancers because they are teaching "more than walks and ochos".
Illinois> you can have dancers with 2-3 years tango experience who still can't walk
Illinois> with grace and balance to the music.
I wish that would be the case. But my experience shows that you can teach a lot of stuff early and still have a good - apparent - level of dancing. These people usually use quite a lot of muscle strength to do what they do, so they aren't too comfortable to dance with, however, from the outside they are quite adept dancers. Since most locals don't know what they are missing, they didn't develop the need for better connection and more subtleness. :(
Cheers,
Aron
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:08:31 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
Hi Aron,
Sorry if you find my writing style aggressive. Probably due to 25 years working on constuction sites around the world and
dealing with some very tough contractors. Finally gave up that life, settled in Hong Kong and became a full-time Tango
instructor - with some Ballroom and Latin thrown in. I make a pretty good living but I agree with you - if I only taught my
students walking, rock steps and various ochos for 6-months, I'd also be out of business and, in my case, back to construction
work.
People will never learn Tango unless they keep coming to the classes [despite what Chris, UK says] so you have to keep them
interested until they become hooked. If that means teaching beginners Barridas, Ganchos and Boleos after about 3-months -
fair enough. And, if I don't do it, even in a small place like HK there are 5 or 6 other couples who will. But it's still the visiting
Show Tango instructors who teach the really wild stuff - and those classes are always packed!
Keith, HK
On Mon Jul 16 17:38 , Ecsedy Cron sent:
>My 2 cents here...
>
>Illinois> Each year we get 1 or 2 young men (in their 20s) who become competent social
>Illinois> tango dancers (close embrace) within 6 months. I believe it is possible for
>
>It depends quite a bit on the motivation of the students. In Hungary, learning dancing is at the same level as going to the movies or eating out, which means that many people simply doesn't have any motivation to actually _learn_ tango well or even to use it at a milonga. I have to work very hard to create an environment on my classes that makes people at least curious about a milonga, so they continue dancing after the first few months and practice outside my 90-minutes-per-week tango classes.
>
>Illinois> months. Their repertoire is mosly walking, rock steps (some turning),
>Illinois> several variations on the ocho cortado and basic back ochos.
>
>I'd be out of business, if people learnt only this in half a year (even though wouldn't ever teach colgadas in the first year - counting the average 3-5 hours per week tango involvement). The tango scene in Hungary was dominated by stage dancers during its initial expansion, so people rarely dance simple at the milongas (you can't even try: some women don't even understand if you lead steps less than half a meter...). This makes dancers of beginner-level knowledge feel completely incompetent and drives them towards fancy stuff. A great number of beginners choose to take lessons with stage dancers because they are teaching "more than walks and ochos".
>
>Illinois> you can have dancers with 2-3 years tango experience who still can't walk
>Illinois> with grace and balance to the music.
>
>I wish that would be the case. But my experience shows that you can teach a lot of stuff early and still have a good - apparent - level of dancing. These people usually use quite a lot of muscle strength to do what they do, so they aren't too comfortable to dance with, however, from the outside they are quite adept dancers. Since most locals don't know what they are missing, they didn't develop the need for better connection and more subtleness. :(
>
>Cheers,
>Aron
>
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:49:34 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
IMHO, if a guy can competently walk with ease and elegance, perform turns to
both sides and navigate the dance floor and lead his partner to dance as he
does all this, he is already and accomplished dancer and is probably already
teaching his own classes. I don't know who these 6 month wonders are. I'd
like to see them and I'd love to see the methodology their teachers use.
While it is true that there are phenomenal dancers who can achieve greatness
in short order (think Chicho Frumboli), I think they are a minuscule
minority. I don't agree with teaching raw beginners to do ganchos, barridas,
colgadas, volcadas or flashy boleos and sacadas. It's a very bad idea, this
kind of teaching philosophy produces the worst dancers that one sees in the
social dance floor. These are the people about whom the biggest rants
against "show tango" are directed.
I don't know about the proficient dancers that some people in this forum are
talking about. I have not seen them so I cannot talk about them. However, I
do know that there are teachers out there who have very nice personalities
and are very complementary of their students progress and ability. These are
very nice people and very supportive of their charges. They are doing what
they think is right and in some ways they are correct. It's very important
to be supportive and encouraging. The only problem is that in their efforts,
they convince their students (and themselves I guess..) that they are indeed
good dancers and quite proficient. Alas, to the knowledgeable observer this
is simply not so. This is equally bad for those teaching choreographed back
sacadas, and flying boleos as it is for those who teach plodding under the
guise of "close embrace".
In my years of dancing and teaching since the early '90s, I've come to the
conclusion that the tango is not easy to learn or to teach. It is simple,
but not easy. People can take lessons for years from good teachers, and
still struggle to dance simply, elegantly and with the music. Yes, there are
exceptions, but that is all they are. And yes, when these people go to BsAs,
they find out just how woefully inadequate their dancing really is and how
judgmental and picky the Portenos/as can be... A rude awakening indeed.
OTOH, there is good dancing in the US and anyone who says different is just
talking from limited experience or just lying. In any of the larger
festivals around the US, one can find many very good dancers. Actually, you
don't even need to do go to those festivals. Just come to Atlanta during a
week when we have several milongas and come to dance. You'll see for
yourself that there is an excellent level of dancing right here in the USA.
Cheers,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
>Reply-To: keith@tangohk.com
>To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:08:31 -0400
>
> Hi Aron,
>
> Sorry if you find my writing style aggressive. Probably due to 25 years
>working on constuction sites around the world and
> dealing with some very tough contractors. Finally gave up that life,
>settled in Hong Kong and became a full-time Tango
> instructor - with some Ballroom and Latin thrown in. I make a pretty good
>living but I agree with you - if I only taught my
> students walking, rock steps and various ochos for 6-months, I'd also be
>out of business and, in my case, back to construction
> work.
>
> People will never learn Tango unless they keep coming to the classes
>[despite what Chris, UK says] so you have to keep them
> interested until they become hooked. If that means teaching beginners
>Barridas, Ganchos and Boleos after about 3-months -
> fair enough. And, if I don't do it, even in a small place like HK there
>are 5 or 6 other couples who will. But it's still the visiting
> Show Tango instructors who teach the really wild stuff - and those
>classes are always packed!
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
>
> On Mon Jul 16 17:38 , Ecsedy Cron sent:
>
> >My 2 cents here...
> >
> >Illinois> Each year we get 1 or 2 young men (in their 20s) who become
>competent social
> >Illinois> tango dancers (close embrace) within 6 months. I believe it is
>possible for
> >
> >It depends quite a bit on the motivation of the students. In Hungary,
>learning dancing is at the same level as going to the movies or eating out,
>which means that many people simply doesn't have any motivation to actually
>_learn_ tango well or even to use it at a milonga. I have to work very hard
>to create an environment on my classes that makes people at least curious
>about a milonga, so they continue dancing after the first few months and
>practice outside my 90-minutes-per-week tango classes.
> >
> >Illinois> months. Their repertoire is mosly walking, rock steps (some
>turning),
> >Illinois> several variations on the ocho cortado and basic back ochos.
> >
> >I'd be out of business, if people learnt only this in half a year (even
>though wouldn't ever teach colgadas in the first year - counting the
>average 3-5 hours per week tango involvement). The tango scene in Hungary
>was dominated by stage dancers during its initial expansion, so people
>rarely dance simple at the milongas (you can't even try: some women don't
>even understand if you lead steps less than half a meter...). This makes
>dancers of beginner-level knowledge feel completely incompetent and drives
>them towards fancy stuff. A great number of beginners choose to take
>lessons with stage dancers because they are teaching "more than walks and
>ochos".
> >
> >Illinois> you can have dancers with 2-3 years tango experience who still
>can't walk
> >Illinois> with grace and balance to the music.
> >
> >I wish that would be the case. But my experience shows that you can teach
>a lot of stuff early and still have a good - apparent - level of dancing.
>These people usually use quite a lot of muscle strength to do what they do,
>so they aren't too comfortable to dance with, however, from the outside
>they are quite adept dancers. Since most locals don't know what they are
>missing, they didn't develop the need for better connection and more
>subtleness. :(
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Aron
> >
>
>
https://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:36:38 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Manuel (et al),
WHITE 95 R wrote:
> IMHO, if a guy can competently walk with ease and elegance, perform
> turns to both sides and navigate the dance floor and lead his partner
> to dance as he does all this, he is already and accomplished dancer
> and is probably already teaching his own classes. I don't know who
> these 6 month wonders are. I'd like to see them and I'd love to see
> the methodology their teachers use.
I've seen a handful of guys get well on their way _toward_ this point in
6 months (@ 3+ long nights per week). Usually dudes who end up dating
someone in the community (of whatever level) figure things out more
quickly-- not always, but often enough for it to have emerged as a
subtle pattern. One I can observe, anyway.
With women, I notice similar progress among those who befriend other
_growing_ dancers (again, of whatever level... and whether the friends
are fellow chicks or guys who are making active progress.)
At bottom, I'd say that learning is contagious-- which is why group
classes can indeed be very productive, and why privates sometimes
flounder if the student is too isolated in their growth. Group classes
of course have their liabilities as well, if you approach them
stupidly-- but so does a loaf of bread, in that case.
> I don't agree with teaching raw beginners to do ganchos, barridas,
> colgadas, volcadas or flashy boleos and sacadas.
This past April, I taught a workshop on sacadas for men & women, in your
community, with a mix of students including a "raw beginner" or three.
To me it's just walking... and I strove to convey that understanding of
the dance (e.g., by repeating it ad nauseam, starting with the walk,
showing variations based on the walk). If there have been any adverse
effects, I trust you'll let me know.
To me, the elegance & simplicity of the tango is a matter of
distillation. I don't teach moves because I want to see my students
doing such moves predominantly. I want to see them doing moves well, and
without bogus ideas, whenever and if ever they choose to do them.
Nor will I tell them they don't have to walk through any fires in their
learning & growth. I could only do that by selling them false shortcuts,
being a kiss-ass, and in short, purveying bullshit.
> In my years of dancing and teaching since the early '90s, I've come to
> the conclusion that the tango is not easy to learn or to teach. It is
> simple, but not easy.
Well, it's simple, and yet not easy, only because you can't practice for
your students. Most dancers just need to dance more, and forget about
the packaging of growth, in order to grow. Then classes and lessons
start to have far more value: they have to be supplements, not the center.
My favorite comic book artist once made the familiar observation that
you have to throw away your first 1,000 pages before you can find
yourself and start doing it for real. Some dancers, in tango terms,
cover that process of initial discovery in 6 months or a year, and then
begin to mature just fine; some take 5 years, and feel so choked by then
that they lose all heart.
When a student comes to me and I don't see them at enough milongas, I
pester them about it. I suggest partners and encourage them to hit a
group class to meet people & see someone else's teaching. Or whatever.
My very first night of tango, I danced for 3 hours after 60 minutes of
instruction from another guy. The ratio I ask of my students is about
twice that-- 2 or 3 nights per week, for every weekly lesson. Many
exceed that standard (with or without my badgering), and have a great
time because of it.
We also discuss the music a lot, and sometimes the food in different
venues. Occasionally we laugh at how bad Argentine painting is, as
opposed to the graphic design (e.g., sheet music covers), but that's off
the clock.
> People can take lessons for years from good teachers, and still
> struggle to dance simply, elegantly and with the music.
I'd surmise this is the case when you've got a person who doesn't
already know simplicity or elegance in life, or who doesn't enjoy
listening to Any music. (I.e., as a sole activity, not as background
while something else is occupying their attention. That's not
listening.) For that, one needs not a tango teacher but probably a
friend or jazz bar, or some good poetry from several centuries ago, or
cognac.
But under normal circumstances, I'd say the struggle with
teaching/learning only arises when someone isn't getting out for enough
social dancing. You can't expect any kind of supervised training to take
the place of practice & experience. Plenty of folks do that
unthinkingly, sure; but double their number and they're all still wrong.
If you imposed a quota of social dancing on your students, so that they
had to hit 2 milongas (or whatever) between lessons, I think you'd see
that it ain't so hard after all, for either of you.
Most people who don't already know this just need it pointed out. It's
too easy to forget these things, and end up preoccupied with some
charlatanism out of a dance PhD program, or yoga, or some other
distraction which has less to do with tango than a Hollywood rose in
American teeth.
Jake Spatz
DC
=POSTSCRIPTDamn near every good dancer I know has been a tango dropout at some
point. We never much talk about that... and yet, sometimes I think the
only thing anyone really needs is to quit. The ones who succeed at that
move on with their lives, and the rest of us are just miserable failures
who couldn't stay quit-- puppets who lace on special shoes and shuffle
around at the behest of Troilo's fingers every night-- rank lowlifes who
talk about the little muscles that stitch our spines together.
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:27:55 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
I generally accept Tete's perspective that dancing tango is about the
music not the steps. Tete's perspective does suggest that it is quite
possible to learn to dance tango reasonably well in six months. In fact,
when Susan and I were teaching on a regular basis about half our beginning
students in group classes were ready to dance passably at a milonga in
abut 6-8 weeks of once a week lessons for an hour's duration.
Why don't many students learn to dance in six months? For many years,
most of the instruction in Argentine tango has been about mastering step
patterns. I don't think the problem is in teaching step patterns per se.
I think it is in concentrating on teaching step patterns to the exclusion
of teaching to skills that must come first--such as moving to the music
and a general understanding of how tango is danced.
Teaching beginning tango as walking and as small elements of movement
creates the possibility of emphasizing the rhythm of the music. The
beginning students can assemble these small movements to dance.
After the students have mastered some basic rhythmic and movement skills,
learning something about the underlying structure of the tango would be
helpful. Along the way, some refinement of movement is good. After that
the dancer is well prepared to take lessons from some of the many
instructors who teach tango as step patterns. With good quality movement,
a knowledge of the rhythm and the underlying structure of tango, the
dancer can actually learn something useful from those who are teaching
step patterns. Without that knowledge, all that step patterns become mini
choreographies.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:15:08 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600707181115v4d06bf4fs66fb5cda2722b0b0@mail.gmail.com>
Dear Steve,
Great post, thank you.
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
On 7/18/07, Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org <Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org> wrote:
> I generally accept Tete's perspective that dancing tango is about the
> music not the steps. Tete's perspective does suggest that it is quite
> possible to learn to dance tango reasonably well in six months. In fact,
> when Susan and I were teaching on a regular basis about half our beginning
> students in group classes were ready to dance passably at a milonga in
> abut 6-8 weeks of once a week lessons for an hour's duration.
>
> Why don't many students learn to dance in six months? For many years,
> most of the instruction in Argentine tango has been about mastering step
> patterns. I don't think the problem is in teaching step patterns per se.
> I think it is in concentrating on teaching step patterns to the exclusion
> of teaching to skills that must come first--such as moving to the music
> and a general understanding of how tango is danced.
>
> Teaching beginning tango as walking and as small elements of movement
> creates the possibility of emphasizing the rhythm of the music. The
> beginning students can assemble these small movements to dance.
>
> After the students have mastered some basic rhythmic and movement skills,
> learning something about the underlying structure of the tango would be
> helpful. Along the way, some refinement of movement is good. After that
> the dancer is well prepared to take lessons from some of the many
> instructors who teach tango as step patterns. With good quality movement,
> a knowledge of the rhythm and the underlying structure of tango, the
> dancer can actually learn something useful from those who are teaching
> step patterns. Without that knowledge, all that step patterns become mini
> choreographies.
>
> With best regards,
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:19:42 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
>From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
>I generally accept Tete's perspective that dancing tango is about the
>music not the steps. Tete's perspective does suggest that it is quite
>possible to learn to dance tango reasonably well in six months. In fact,
>when Susan and I were teaching on a regular basis about half our beginning
>students in group classes were ready to dance passably at a milonga in
>abut 6-8 weeks of once a week lessons for an hour's duration.
Hi Steve, Tete's perspective (as I gathered from attending his classes)
boils down to "I can dance tango" (shows some dancing) "but you are not
doing it right". I congratulate you on your wonderful success. Being
instrumental in half of your students being able to dance well in the
milongas in six weeks is nothing short of phenomenal.
>Teaching beginning tango as walking and as small elements of movement
>creates the possibility of emphasizing the rhythm of the music.
True that. We do that all the classes we teach.
>beginning students can assemble these small movements to dance.
Not necessarily. Actually it's highly unlikely that the beginning student
can do any such thing.
>After the students have mastered some basic rhythmic and movement skills,
>learning something about the underlying structure of the tango would be
>helpful.
Here is the crux of the problem. Mastering basic rhythmic and movement
skills is most difficult for the average person who walks into a tango
class. IMHO, if a dancer has mastered basic rhythmic and movement skills, he
or she is already a master dancer and is probably teaching classes
somewhere. I think that the key to this whole argument is how one defines
"mastering rhythmic and movement skills" or just what makes a given person a
"passable dancer" on the pista....
>Along the way, some refinement of movement is good.
I'd say along the way the refinement of movement is the key to mastering the
"rhythmic" and "movement" skills. Maybe I'm a bit of a curmudgeon, but I
totally disagree with many people's definition of "mastering" various skills
of dancing. Actually, "mastering" rhythmic movement (or dancing to the
music, if you will), is a rare quality among dancers. There are very few
dancers who actually have any "mastery" of that. On top of that, "mastery"
of navigation is also very difficult and rare to see. I think it's
disingenuous to say that beginner dancers can master anything is six weeks
(or even six months). Again, maybe my definitions of "mastery" and "skill"
are way off base, but I can only talk based on my experience and
observations over the years.
Cheers,
Manuel
Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!
https://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:49:12 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
Manuel and all:
I have to say that Tete's own skills as an instructor nothing to do with
the validity of his comments. I didn't find his instructional videos to
be much different than the classes Manuel describes. It's his power of
observation that is worth considering.
Previously I wrote:
>>beginning students can assemble these small movements to dance.
Manuel responded:
>Not necessarily. Actually it's highly unlikely that the beginning
>student can do any such thing.
Maybe it's a question of teaching how to assemble those elements.
It might also be a case of my defining passably differently than you
define mastery. I'm not suggesting that such dancers have reached the top
level in 6-8 weeks. I am saying that they would show some competence in
basic movement, rhythm and navigation, and have fun without getting in
anyone else's way.
I'm still struck by a comment that Tom Stermitz made a few years ago that
people show up at their first tango lesson with navigational skills and
maybe some basic knowledge of rhythm,. (They are able to walk down a
crowded street or through a crowded mall without colliding with anyone.)
After their first tango lesson--which typically consists of learning a
memorized step pattern--many would be tango dancers have no connection to
the music and have no ability to navigate. That description doesn't
recommend instruction very much does it?
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:26:56 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
Dear Steve,
In your very nice post you say "After the students have mastered some basic
rhythmic and movement skills, learning something about the underlying
structure of the tango would be
helpful.". You also said that back when you were teaching with Susan (give
her my cordial greeting), you were producing "passable dancers" in about six
to eight weeks of 1 hour weekly lessons.
By definition in some dictionaries, "mastery" means:
1. Possession of consummate skill
2. Full command of a subject of study
3. Status of master or ruler
"passable" is defined as:
1. of moderate quality but less than excellent
2. satisfactory but not outstanding; adequate
Please do not think I'm passing judgment on your teaching skills. But in all
honesty, it's extremely rare for a six~eight week trained dancer to have
mastered anything. In my humble opinion, a great number of dancers who've
been dancing for years fall in the passable category. Even after many
classes and workshops with excellent teachers, few people attain "mastery"
of the basic tango dance.
I agree with Jake. He said something about the students lack of mastery is
due to his not being able to practice for them. I firmly believe that lots
of practice can help attain mastery. A dose of natural talent does not hurt
either. But lets be honest, how many beginning students will take lessons
and practice enough in six to eight weeks to actually learn to lead or
follow and dance rhythmically?
Tom Stermitz is right in that people walk into a tango class but promptly
forget how to do it by the end of the class.... However, this is only
partially correct. It does not give the true picture of what happens. They
might walk into the class, but generally, they are totally unaware of their
body. Most folks have a hard time shifting their weight from one foot to the
other when asked to do it... Ever notice how they always end up with their
weight over both feet whenever they stop moving? Have you ever had to teach
a woman to be aware of the lead so she moves her legs instead of falling
backwards when you try to lead her to walk? Ever see a man start by stepping
on their partner's feet before even moving their bodies or giving a lead?
Ever notice how you can easily spend on hour trying to teach control of
simple movements to one person?
I've seen those scenarios literally thousands of times. Teaching people to
move consciously and deliberately by themselves in a non-familiar way (think
tango) is not easy. When you try to teach 2 inexperienced people to do that
*together* you will have an exponentially more difficult task. I challenge
the notion that such people can become "passable" dancers after six or eight
lessons of one hour, given once a week....
You talk about teaching how to "assemble these elements". I say good luck in
teaching them the element of leading and following in six weeks, let alone
assembling elements of rhythm, timing and body control. Like I said, if one
has "mastery" of even the most basic tango skills, one is a "Master", well
past the passable level. BTW, if you want to see passable, just go to any
large milonga and watch the people dance. You'll be amazed at the number of
passable dancers you'll see, and they will not be all students with six
weeks of one hour/week lessons under their belts.
Sincerely,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
>Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:49:12 -0500
>
>Manuel and all:
>
>I have to say that Tete's own skills as an instructor nothing to do with
>the validity of his comments. I didn't find his instructional videos to
>be much different than the classes Manuel describes. It's his power of
>observation that is worth considering.
>
>Previously I wrote:
> >>beginning students can assemble these small movements to dance.
>
>Manuel responded:
> >Not necessarily. Actually it's highly unlikely that the beginning
> >student can do any such thing.
>
>Maybe it's a question of teaching how to assemble those elements.
>
>It might also be a case of my defining passably differently than you
>define mastery. I'm not suggesting that such dancers have reached the top
>level in 6-8 weeks. I am saying that they would show some competence in
>basic movement, rhythm and navigation, and have fun without getting in
>anyone else's way.
>
>I'm still struck by a comment that Tom Stermitz made a few years ago that
>people show up at their first tango lesson with navigational skills and
>maybe some basic knowledge of rhythm,. (They are able to walk down a
>crowded street or through a crowded mall without colliding with anyone.)
>After their first tango lesson--which typically consists of learning a
>memorized step pattern--many would be tango dancers have no connection to
>the music and have no ability to navigate. That description doesn't
>recommend instruction very much does it?
>
>With best regards,
>Steve
>
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
https://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:59:08 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
Hi Manuel and everyone:
If we are to parse words, some mastery of basic skills means a less than
mastery.
Manuel wrote:
>Please do not think I'm passing judgment on your teaching skills. But in
>all honesty, it's extremely rare for a six~eight week trained dancer to
>have mastered anything.
If passable requires some mastery of basic skills, 6-8 weeks is completely
possible.
Far from finding a judgement on my teaching skills, I read a criticism of
other teachers. Students need to be taught enough in a beginning course
that they are encouraged to keep dancing. If the emphasis is on teaching
small elements and basic rhythmic skills, they will find the ecouragement.
Will they be prepared to join the Tango X 2 company? No. Will they be
prepared to go to local milongas and have a good time? Yes. Having a
good time may launch them into the learning and practice that is necessary
to move beyond passable.
Jake is completely right that the instructors cannot practice for the
students. Those who want to become dancers find it within themselves to
practice.
>BTW, if you want to see passable, just go to any
>large milonga and watch the people dance. You'll
>be amazed at the number of passable dancers you'll
>see, and they will not be all students with six
>weeks of one hour/week lessons under their belts.
Why do students who study for years never progress beyond passable? Read
my other posting.
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg05241.html
IMO, too many teachers foster a dependence on their teaching. When Susan
and I were teaching regularly, we often told our students that we had
taught them enough and they should practice and just dance to refine
skills. We also hosted a guided practice, and that is where I still think
the students really learned to dance.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:15:48 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
Dear Steve,
I guess we can agree that "mastery" and "passable" have vastly different
meanings to me and you. Perhaps it's my skill level in English. Please
excuse it on the grounds that it's not my native language.
Also, I agree with you on that students need not become dependent on their
teachers. Attending milongas and practicas is also the best way to refine
and put into practice what one learns in the class. Again, you and many
others are right in saying that the goal of learning the tango is to dance
and have fun. And really, it's quite possible that a particular student
might be ready to leave the teacher after a few weeks or months. After all,
if one has taught them all one knows, there is nothing left to do but go
elsewhere to learn more. ;-)
Sincerely,
Manuel
>From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
>
>Hi Manuel and everyone:
>
>If we are to parse words, some mastery of basic skills means a less than
>mastery.
>
>Manuel wrote:
> >Please do not think I'm passing judgment on your teaching skills. But in
> >all honesty, it's extremely rare for a six~eight week trained dancer to
> >have mastered anything.
>
>If passable requires some mastery of basic skills, 6-8 weeks is completely
>possible.
>
>Far from finding a judgement on my teaching skills, I read a criticism of
>other teachers. Students need to be taught enough in a beginning course
>that they are encouraged to keep dancing. If the emphasis is on teaching
>small elements and basic rhythmic skills, they will find the ecouragement.
> Will they be prepared to join the Tango X 2 company? No. Will they be
>prepared to go to local milongas and have a good time? Yes. Having a
>good time may launch them into the learning and practice that is necessary
>to move beyond passable.
>
>Jake is completely right that the instructors cannot practice for the
>students. Those who want to become dancers find it within themselves to
>practice.
>
> >BTW, if you want to see passable, just go to any
> >large milonga and watch the people dance. You'll
> >be amazed at the number of passable dancers you'll
> >see, and they will not be all students with six
> >weeks of one hour/week lessons under their belts.
>
>Why do students who study for years never progress beyond passable? Read
>my other posting.
>https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg05241.html
>
> IMO, too many teachers foster a dependence on their teaching. When Susan
>and I were teaching regularly, we often told our students that we had
>taught them enough and they should practice and just dance to refine
>skills. We also hosted a guided practice, and that is where I still think
>the students really learned to dance.
>
>With best regards,
>Steve
>
https://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:50:37 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months
Dear Manuel and others:
Let me clarify that I didn't send students away after 6-8 weeks. (I have
more to teach than that.)
I also never taught them everything I know. I taught them everything that
I was comfortable teaching, and they could learn.
There is a point at which any true student-teacher relationship must come
to an end. The teacher can take the student to the doorway, but it is up
to the student to step through that doorway and become a dancer. Perhaps
taking such a philosophy to an extreme in the few lessons and classes that
he taught, jazz pianist Bill Evans refused to show his students the chord
voicings and progressions for which he was renown because he did not want
to deprive them of the opportunity to discover the knowledge on their own.
By the way, I don't consider someone whose instruction consists soley of
demonstrating step patterns to be a teacher. Of course, one can take many
workshops and classes from StepMeisters, but they aren't really teaching
tango. They are simply demonstrating patterns within tango that they
enjoy using. Such classes can be an enjoyable diversion, but anyone who
wants to convert what is taught in such classes into skills useful for
dancing tango will have to work at it.
With best regards,
Steve
"The greatest ideas you will ever have are the ones that other people
don't understand." Craig McCaw
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 01:29:42 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months or 6 weeks
After all the discussion about learning Tango in 6-months, we now have Stephen Brown who has it
down to 6-weeks, with words like 'mastery' thrown in for good measure. What next - 6 days, with
perhaps a little less 'mastery'?
And, why is everyone suddenly sooooooo polite? We have Manuel apologising for his poor English,
when it's obvious to anyone that he was using the words 'mastery' and 'passable' correctly and it
was Stephen, presumably a native English' speaker, who was using them incorrectly.
Even in his response, Stephen asserts ... "If passable requires some mastery of basic skills, 6-8 weeks
is completely possible."
Amazing. Stephen, I bow to your teaching skills.
Keith, HK
On Thu Jul 19 5:15 , "WHITE 95 R" sent:
>Dear Steve,
>
>I guess we can agree that "mastery" and "passable" have vastly different
>meanings to me and you. Perhaps it's my skill level in English. Please
>excuse it on the grounds that it's not my native language.
>
>Also, I agree with you on that students need not become dependent on their
>teachers. Attending milongas and practicas is also the best way to refine
>and put into practice what one learns in the class. Again, you and many
>others are right in saying that the goal of learning the tango is to dance
>and have fun. And really, it's quite possible that a particular student
>might be ready to leave the teacher after a few weeks or months. After all,
>if one has taught them all one knows, there is nothing left to do but go
>elsewhere to learn more. ;-)
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Manuel
>
>>From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
>
>>
>>Hi Manuel and everyone:
>>
>>If we are to parse words, some mastery of basic skills means a less than
>>mastery.
>>
>>Manuel wrote:
>> >Please do not think I'm passing judgment on your teaching skills. But in
>> >all honesty, it's extremely rare for a six~eight week trained dancer to
>> >have mastered anything.
>>
>>If passable requires some mastery of basic skills, 6-8 weeks is completely
>>possible.
>>
>>Far from finding a judgement on my teaching skills, I read a criticism of
>>other teachers. Students need to be taught enough in a beginning course
>>that they are encouraged to keep dancing. If the emphasis is on teaching
>>small elements and basic rhythmic skills, they will find the ecouragement.
>> Will they be prepared to join the Tango X 2 company? No. Will they be
>>prepared to go to local milongas and have a good time? Yes. Having a
>>good time may launch them into the learning and practice that is necessary
>>to move beyond passable.
>>
>>Jake is completely right that the instructors cannot practice for the
>>students. Those who want to become dancers find it within themselves to
>>practice.
>>
>> >BTW, if you want to see passable, just go to any
>> >large milonga and watch the people dance. You'll
>> >be amazed at the number of passable dancers you'll
>> >see, and they will not be all students with six
>> >weeks of one hour/week lessons under their belts.
>>
>>Why do students who study for years never progress beyond passable? Read
>>my other posting.
>>https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg05241.html
>>
>> IMO, too many teachers foster a dependence on their teaching. When Susan
>>and I were teaching regularly, we often told our students that we had
>>taught them enough and they should practice and just dance to refine
>>skills. We also hosted a guided practice, and that is where I still think
>>the students really learned to dance.
>>
>>With best regards,
>>Steve
>>
>
>https://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/\?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:32:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months or 6 weeks
--- Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
After all the discussion about learning Tango in 6-months,
we now have Stephen Brown who has it down to 6-weeks, with
words like 'mastery' thrown in for good measure. What next
- 6 days, with perhaps a little less 'mastery'?
And, why is everyone suddenly sooooooo polite? We have
Manuel apologising for his poor English, when it's obvious
to anyone that he was using the words 'mastery' and
'passable' correctly and it was Stephen, presumably a
native English' speaker, who was using them incorrectly.
------------
I don't know if you are a native English speaker Keith,
although you certainly write with the idiom of a native. My
friends in HK tell me that English is becoming extinct in
the under 30 crowd. Either way, Steve's use of the term
mastery may be correctly interpreted as he intended it to
be interpreted. On the other hand Steve, Manuel's original
interpretation is also valid. I don't think it is fair to
accuse him of parsing words. In common usage, English is
often horribly ambiguous. Hence we engage in dialogue to
clarify meaning.
I've tried to make this point already about the phrase
"world class". A phrase that is both so ambiguous and so
loaded that it requires a great deal of clarification. When
Nina used the term, everybody interpreted it under the
burden of their own baggage. Many were offended.
Fortunately, Nina clarified what she meant by "world
class". If you reread her original post once you understand
her definition, there is nothing offensive about it.
(Unless you are ofended by circular reasoning.) In fact, it
might even help tango tourists understand and survive with
the natives. (Or maybe I am just too thick skinned to get
offended after 17 years of being the 6 foot Irish-looking
guy on construction sites?)
I suspect that the resistance to the idea that some
teachers can create productive members of the community in
6 months is also a matter of misinterpretation of meaning.
I stated that my students enjoy themselves on the floor,
and give an enjoyable dance to their partners without
interfering with the enjoyment of others. Steve said much
the same thing. Maybe I wasn't clear that I meant they
enjoy dancing with partners with a similar level of
experience.
These guys can't compete with the Manuel, Ron, or Keith for
the best dancers in the room. But they usually finish each
step with all their weight on the correct foot, although
some aren't yet strong enough to maintain an axis. They
dance with more vocabulary than Ron suggests, but I'm not
likely to have taught sacadas at this level. They move
differently do DiSarli than they move to D'Arienzo,
although D'Agostino may leave them flat. They have
scratched the surface of the immense depth that Robin
implies, but it's not a very deep scratch. Most
importantly, they will not ruin Manuel's evening by
plodding along at half the pace of the ronda, nor will they
interfere with Ron's quiet enjoyment of tango by bouncing
around like charged gas molecules.
I suspect that the 6 week students in Texas have slightly
less acumen, or else they are putting in a whole lot more
than 6 hours a week. We expect our students to commit to 6
hours a week, and we lead by example as well as foster
positive peer presure to motivate them to practice and
dance outside of class.
Sean
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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 04:54:59 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 6 months or 6 weeks
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Sean,
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> Either way, Steve's use of the term mastery may be correctly interpreted as he intended it to be interpreted.
On what planet?
Steve was using "mastery" to mean either "promise" or "basic
competence," and in the context of the discussion to which this post
belonged, "mastery" is the antonym of his intended meaning. Just because
you and I understood him, because we're used to the very sloppy usage
widespread on this continent, doesn't mean he put it well.
> On the other hand Steve, Manuel's original interpretation is also valid.
Manuel used the word properly, and wasn't kissing ass.
> In common usage, English is often horribly ambiguous. Hence we engage in dialogue to clarify meaning.
>
We engage in dialogue to develop ideas, not to revise our diction. Folks
ought to proofread their damn typing before making it public.
> I've tried to make this point already about the phrase
> "world class".
By your own admission, you failed at that, no?
> Maybe I wasn't clear that I meant they [6-month novices] enjoy dancing with partners with a similar level of experience.
Maybe we all would do well to forget "common usage," and say what we mean.
> But they usually finish each step with all their weight on the correct foot, although some aren't yet strong enough to maintain an axis.
If _this_ is even "basic competence," let alone mastery of anything, I
think I can safely discard your plaudits of them until another 6 months
have passed.
Jake
DC
