5388 any advice for bad shoulders?
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 16:44:47 -0500
From: buffmilonguera@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
To: tango-L@mit.edu
I have had prolonged bouts with bursitis in both shoulders, as well as
small tears in my rotator cuff. I work with a trainer to strengthen
and protect my shoulders as much as possible - but sometimes, esp.
after a long night of leading or dancing with a follower who pushes too
hard - my left shoulder really hurts. I was wondering if any other
leaders have this problem and/or any suggestions?
thanks
b
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Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 19:02:14 -0500
From: "jjg" <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
Um, me too. Couple of things to consider.
* Best I got on shoulders was here:
https://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id26252&cr
Essential argument is that the rotator cuff is a symptom of shoulder misuse
rather than be a primary problem. Assuming your moniker is accurate, this
article is probably for you. If you are athletic you might also want to check
how much sports experience your physiotherapist had. An awful lot of them will
rehab you enough to sit on the couch pain free, but have no idea what to do
for an athlete.
* Switch your embrace to close. Plus with close embrace is that you can lead
everything with your chest so you can effectively remove your arms from the
kinetic chain. If she is good with it, just give her a big hug. This will
allow you to support both arms with each other and should completely shut off
the rotator cuffs on both sides. Oh, this trick also works if you are having
lower back pain too.
* (When your shoulders are really sore): Dance with good partners while you
rehab. A lot of beginners are a touch slow to pick up on direction changes and
so lag with the effect that your shoulders take a beating. Normally this is
not an issue, but even a little tweaking for a tanda or two (that's around 20
minutes) on bursitis can aggravate it for a week.
* If your follower pushes to hard on the left arm, either let the arm drop
down (she can't push on it really if your fingers point at the ground) or
switch the frame so you are both resting hands on each other's shoulders with
arms straight. Might be an option for classes. Oh, do tell your partner about
your issue. If she takes umbrage at it, then don't dance with her because she
doesn't understand the shear agony a shoulder condition can cause. One good
tug at the wrong time could put you out of commission for 6 - 8 weeks...
FWIW I had a bad bout of shoulder problems starting last Feb. after and
accident that nearly tore my right arm off (went ballistic going down some
stairs and my arm go caught in the railing. eeewwww.)
Hope this helps. If you need/want to drop me a line.
Cheers,
Jeff G
=====
I have had prolonged bouts with bursitis in both shoulders, as well as
small tears in my rotator cuff. I work with a trainer to strengthen
and protect my shoulders as much as possible - but sometimes, esp.
after a long night of leading or dancing with a follower who pushes too
hard - my left shoulder really hurts. I was wondering if any other
leaders have this problem and/or any suggestions?
thanks
b
=====
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:43:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
To: buffmilonguera@aol.com, tango-L@mit.edu
I don't have any medical advise or exercises. In case it applies, I can add the following:
When I was first thinking about teaching, I would assist my teacher in her class. One time, I said something to the effect that the woman was leaning on me. My teacher's response? "You're enabling her."
So, if at all possible, take that crutch away from her.
I am sure you are already doing this. But, I thought I'd send it your way, anyway.
This won't help you, directly. But, when I am teaching, and the woman's fingers dig into my shoulder blade, I make them aware of it. When doing a turn, some dancers will not realize that they are holding on to me to prevent the centrifugal force from pulling them out of the circle. They can be tought to correct this. But, the first thing to do is to make them aware of their holding on. It's an easy way to enable them to notice when they are using their leader as a crutch.
Take care
buffmilonguera@aol.com wrote:
I have had prolonged bouts with bursitis in both shoulders, as well as
small tears in my rotator cuff. I work with a trainer to strengthen
and protect my shoulders as much as possible - but sometimes, esp.
after a long night of leading or dancing with a follower who pushes too
hard - my left shoulder really hurts. I was wondering if any other
leaders have this problem and/or any suggestions?
thanks
b
Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet?
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks!
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
https://webmail.aol.com
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:15:39 -0500
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
To: <buffmilonguera@aol.com>, <tango-L@mit.edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
OH, I know that feeling. You can't stop the woman from having a stiff right arm. You can only control the direction she's pushing. Instead of outwardly, direct her arm directly downward. This way, her energy is not pushing on your shoulder nor is it impacting the alignment. You have to stay relaxed no matter how hard she pushes or you'll absorb the tension that is in her arm. No matter how hard she tries to bring her arm up and outward, keep it down. This has led to short tandas. If I have to choose between self preservation and finishing the tanda.....
Michael
Washington, DC
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
buffmilonguera@aol.com wrote:
I work with a trainer to strengthen and protect my shoulders as much as possible - but sometimes, esp.
after a long night of leading or dancing with a follower who pushes too hard - my left shoulder really hurts.
thanks
b
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:41:51 -0500
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
To: buffmilonguera@aol.com, Tango List <tango-l@mit.edu>
How about saying to the follow, "I have an injured shoulder, please try
not to use too much resistance with your right arm?" Not everyone can
make this adjustment but some can/will.
buffmilonguera@aol.com wrote:
> I have had prolonged bouts with bursitis in both shoulders, as well as
> small tears in my rotator cuff. I work with a trainer to strengthen
> and protect my shoulders as much as possible - but sometimes, esp.
> after a long night of leading or dancing with a follower who pushes too
> hard - my left shoulder really hurts. I was wondering if any other
> leaders have this problem and/or any suggestions?
>
> thanks
> b
>
> Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet?
> It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and
> what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go
> Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks!
>
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
> https://webmail.aol.com
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
https://arborlaw.com
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 06:41:45 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
To: Tango List <tango-l@mit.edu>
Thanks Carol that's what I always say if a new partner pushes too hard. Often
the girl is quite relieved and says that someone told her to do that. I've now
identified an individual in our Tango community who is telling girls to do this.
But he's not a teacher and he's not one of my students so I don't see what I can
do about it. Anybody have any ideas?
Keith, HK
On Mon Dec 24 12:41 , Carol Shepherd sent:
>How about saying to the follow, "I have an injured shoulder, please try
>not to use too much resistance with your right arm?" Not everyone can
>make this adjustment but some can/will.
>
>buffmilonguera@aol.com wrote:
>> I have had prolonged bouts with bursitis in both shoulders, as well as
>> small tears in my rotator cuff. I work with a trainer to strengthen
>> and protect my shoulders as much as possible - but sometimes, esp.
>> after a long night of leading or dancing with a follower who pushes too
>> hard - my left shoulder really hurts. I was wondering if any other
>> leaders have this problem and/or any suggestions?
>>
>> thanks
>> b
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 04:23:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
To: Tango List <tango-l@mit.edu>
Here's what I do while dancing to help resolve the problem, for whatever it's worth.
When I feel my partner consistently pushing off of my left arm (especially during giros to the right or back ochos), I first need to make sure I am not consistently throwing my partner off balance and then if I am not, I will just let my left hand go momentarily limp in non-critical moments in order to deny that unnecessary support. Most get the message.
When teaching or practicing I will often practice open embrace my left arm and my partner's right arm down and behind or connecting in a open-palm-to-open-palm fashion with fingers extending straight up. The latter is a good exercise in its own right illustrating and practicing joint responsibility for maintaining the frame and hands connecting in the middle as much as possible.
A more difficult problem to solve for me while dancing is my partner's "hanging" on my right shoulder. What I would do, is first make sure I am not lifting my right shoulder causing the imbalance and the "hanging" that way and, if not, "straighten out" my shirt (of whatever garment I may be wearing) on my right shoulder between dances. That works many times.
...dubravko
===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 6:41:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
Thanks Carol that's what I always say if a new partner pushes too hard.
Often
the girl is quite relieved and says that someone told her to do that.
I've now
identified an individual in our Tango community who is telling girls to
do this.
But he's not a teacher and he's not one of my students so I don't see
what I can
do about it. Anybody have any ideas?
Keith, HK
On Mon Dec 24 12:41 , Carol Shepherd sent:
>How about saying to the follow, "I have an injured shoulder, please
try
>not to use too much resistance with your right arm?" Not everyone can
>make this adjustment but some can/will.
>
>buffmilonguera@aol.com wrote:
>> I have had prolonged bouts with bursitis in both shoulders, as well
as
>> small tears in my rotator cuff. I work with a trainer to strengthen
>> and protect my shoulders as much as possible - but sometimes, esp.
>> after a long night of leading or dancing with a follower who pushes
too
>> hard - my left shoulder really hurts. I was wondering if any other
>> leaders have this problem and/or any suggestions?
>>
>> thanks
>> b
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 09:01:02 -0800 (PST)
From: ramiro garcia <ramiro9@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
To: jjg <jjg@jqhome.net>, TANGO-L@mit.edu, buffmilonguera@aol.com
--- jjg <jjg@jqhome.net> wrote:
> Um, me too. Couple of things to consider.
>
> * Best I got on shoulders was here:
>
> https://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id26252&cr
Interesting article! I intend to try a few things in it.
> * (When your shoulders are really sore): Dance with good partners
> while you rehab.
When dancing with someone leaves one or both of my shoulders in
pain,
I usually wind up not dance with them anymore.
> Oh, do tell your partner about your issue.
If you don't tell them, how can they possibly change? It's only
fair.
Do it nicely, but do it.
> If she takes umbrage at it, then don't dance with her
> because she
> doesn't understand the shear agony a shoulder condition can cause.
A few people have responded when I've let them know they were
hurting my shoulder; the majority are locked into their habits,
and are sadly unable or unwilling to change.
> * If your follower pushes to hard on the left arm, either let the
> arm drop
> down (she can't push on it really if your fingers point at the
> ground) or switch the frame ...
3 more techniques:
Rotate your left wrist so that your palm is facing inwards, if
you're
not already dancing that way. It's harder for the women to 'set'
their
shoulders for a Really Good Push at you when their right wrist is
twisted
to face out.
Sometimes, raising your arm, bringing her hand up up up will change
her impulse to push on and lean on you. Granted, it can be tiring
to dance that way for long periods.
This last one is awkward as the dickens, but seems especially
effective with partners that are actually trying to cooperate in
not hurting my shoulder. Bringing my elbow forward and my hand back,
until my forearm lays along the woman's, seems to 'remind' them and
they just let go. Often, the woman's arm will relax once she feels
mine in contact with hers.
> FWIW I had a bad bout of shoulder problems starting last Feb.
> after an
> accident that nearly tore my right arm off (went ballistic going
> down some
> stairs and my arm go caught in the railing. eeewwww.)
<Insert long, painful history of shoulder traumas here>
The thing that's actually helped me the most has been the Alexander
Technique. I highly recommend it. It's been a lifesaver for me,
knees as well as shoulders.
There's a ton of info online.
> Hope this helps. If you need/want to drop me a line.
Ditto.
ramiro
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 14:18:29 -0500
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
Cc: buffmilonguera@aol.com, tango-l@mit.edu
ramiro garcia wrote:
> --- jjg <jjg@jqhome.net> wrote:
>
>> Um, me too. Couple of things to consider.
>>
>> * Best I got on shoulders was here:
>>
>> https://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id26252&cr>
> Interesting article! I intend to try a few things in it.
>
Great link, I just bookmarked it. Scapular downward rotation syndrome
is a huge problem for anyone sitting at a computer keyboard for extended
periods of time.
There's a good stretch for this (depending on height). Go to your
nearest doorway, stand in the doorway, place the palm of your hand
against one side of doorway and with a straight arm rotate your shoulder
and upper torso into the doorway until you feel the stretch (you will
feel it in the front in the crook of your arm at the armpit. For the
left, place the palm at 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock (ie, on the top and on
the side near the top) and for the right, place the palm at 2 o'clock
and 1 o'clock. Of course, be gentle, don't tense up, and, breathe.
The other stretch good for this (depending on your flexibility) is to
clasp your hands behind your back and raise up to the shoulder level and
rotate the meaty part of the away from the back with the fingers laced
inside out.
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
https://arborlaw.com
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 13:26:05 -0800 (PST)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
To: shepherd@arborlaw.com
Cc: buffmilonguera@aol.com, tango-l@mit.edu
WHAT IS DANCE FLOOR ETIQUETTE?
The first goal is to avoid injury - to the follower, to other dancers,
and to walls and furniture and potted plants.
It is customary not to teach or talk at all on the dance floor during
a dance. If you want to talk or teach or discuss a step, it is polite
to other dancers to leave the floor and go elsewhere. This is the
accepted rule at milongas. At practicas, as mentioned above, it's OK
to do these things - talk, work on your steps, discuss technique -
while on the dance floor.
It is appropriate to leave the floor after one song, or even in the middle
of a song, if you are sufficiently uncomfortable with your partner's
dancing or other behavior.
Perhaps I take things too literally, but I note that there is nothing in this list
that makes it permissible for a man to tell the woman that she is making
him uncomfortable while dancing at a milonga.
Although I agree with Carol's advice to tell the woman about it, I know for a
fact what the result of that is. My goodness, you've talked to your partner,
and you've also probably ruined her evening by criticizing her and being rude.
(OK I can't help a bit of exaggeration, but I'm trying to make a point.)
If leaving the floor after one or two dances, and not finishing the tanda is the
accepted alternative to simple verbal communication at a milonga, I think we
need to think about this. We set people up to think that something is wrong
if you don't finish the tanda, but you aren't supposed to tell them what it is.
Yes, I have tried to change some of these "rules", and what people teach to
their students. Specifically, I wonder why everyone isn't told that if you bump
into or kick (not brush) someone you should apologize. Tango Trance or
something, I guess.
Meanwhile, I think it's funny that the shoulder article is at a site with "testoserone"
in the name. Maybe if I had more I would just shut up and "take it like a man".
Does this count as a rant?
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:16:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Emily Justusson <emilylime85@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] any advice for bad shoulders?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
--- steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Although I agree with Carol's advice to tell the
> woman about it, I know for a
> fact what the result of that is. My goodness,
> you've talked to your partner,
> and you've also probably ruined her evening by
> criticizing her and being rude.
> (OK I can't help a bit of exaggeration, but I'm
> trying to make a point.)
and later:
>We set people up to think that something is wrong
>if you don't finish the tanda, but you aren't
supposed to tell them
>what it is.
I've been reading the list for some time (2 years or
so), but haven't posted before.
I felt like I should respond the statement above, as a
follow who was occasionally hurt by people's criticism
when starting out. Sometimes things would rub me the
wrong way, even if I *knew* I needed to get the
content of that feedback in order to improve. Other
times, the leader gave similar types of feedback but
in a way that felt kind and helpful rather than rude.
I'd rather be momentarily offended than keep doing
something that is unpleasant for my lead, but even
better if I can get the same information without
feeling hurt!
This is probably obvious, but the way feedback is
presented/phrased makes a huge difference, as does its
timing. I can imagine being taken aback if someone
verbally informed me midway through a song at a
milonga, or--worse--after cutting a tanda short, that
I was making them physically uncomfortable.
(Especially if I were a beginning dancer already
feeling a little insecure.) It would come across as a
criticism of *me*.
On the other hand, if someone kindly let me know
before or immediately after taking me in their embrace
that they have a shoulder injury and to please be
careful, I wouldn't feel so bad. Instead of it seeming
like purely my failing (you have poor technique! you
push too hard!), it's more a problem with the
*shoulder* that I can compensate for by being extra
light/gentle. I can't imagine anyone taking offense at
this.
If I still was providing too much pressure, s/he could
then let me know after the first song to reduce it
more, and it wouldn't feel like an out-of-the-blue
criticism or rude comment. I'd have already known that
this was an issue with that leader.
And you know what? I'd probably be more aware of my
arm pressure in the future with other partners, even
if they hadn't informed me of any kind of problem. I
know in the beginning I had a much too stiff right
arm, until I experienced dancing with less pressure
and realized that not only could I still feel the
lead, but it felt a lot better.
Of course, you can't give advance notice when your
follower does something unpleasant that you couldn't
have forseen being a problem. But you can still be
nice while letting her know. :-)
-Emily J.
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
