5043 Approaches to Learning and Authencity (or the lack
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:11:03 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: [Tango-L] Approaches to Learning and Authencity (or the lack
of if)
As I see it, there are four layers of tango learning (from the top to the
foundation).
4) Step Patterns and Choreographies
3) Structure of the Dance
2) Quality of Movement
1) Rhythm - the foundation
For each layer there are levels of mastery--beginning, intermediate,
advanced, etc. Instructors are likely to classify their classes by the
levels of mastery, rather than by layer--with most instructors offering
instructton in step patterns.
Without sufficient mastery of the skills in the underlying layers,
learning at higher layers is relatively meaningless. In particular,
learning many step patterns or mini choreographies without the underlying
layers is like building a castle in the sky. Students who study with the
all-too abundant StepMeisters without knowledge of the underlying layers
are simply buying more bricks for their imaginary castle. Many of the
people who take workshops year after year without ever learning to dance
tango probably fall into this category.
The style of tango is really independent of these layers; but many
milonguero-style teachers emphasize rhythm and small elements of the
dance; many salon-style teachers emphasize step patterns and the quality
of movement; many of the nuevo-style teachers emphasize mastery of a
structural knowledge; and nearly all the technique instructors emphasize
the quality of movement. A heavy reliance of any one element in these
elements is likely to result in only a partial knowledge of tango, and in
students who are only capable of dancing in an imitation of the same style
as their instructors. If the instructor is but an imitation of another,
that makes the student an imitation of an imitation. That may be why so
many of the Argentines who teach tango claim only dead masters as being
their instructors.
So I have some understanding for Chris' claim that nearly all tango
instruction is worthless, and Nina's assertion that only Argentines can be
masters of tango. If we examine more closely Tete's comments "Organizers
[in the United States] get anybody they can to come and teach. But
because this is a business, its work for these dancers, they don't come to
teach you tango, they come to teach you steps. ... And if you really think
about it, the music is tango; it's not the steps. Whatever style of dance
you dance the music always comes first. So what happens, if a teacher
comes here and they sell you steps instead of teaching how to dance, what
happens? You don?t dance. You learn steps because that is what you think
you need to learn."
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:37:44 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Approaches to Learning and Authencity (or the
lack of if)
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600707181137l4c8c016k93f2bb238b7b7f6a@mail.gmail.com>
Dear Steve,
I would just add that in my opinion in your first layer it is not just
rhythm but rhythm and the _music_, the understanding of which is
ultimately the key.
With best regards,
Konstantin,
Victoria, Canada
On 7/18/07, Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org <Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org> wrote:
> As I see it, there are four layers of tango learning (from the top to the
> foundation).
>
> 4) Step Patterns and Choreographies
> 3) Structure of the Dance
> 2) Quality of Movement
> 1) Rhythm - the foundation
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: [Tango-L] Approaches to Learning and Authencity (or the lack
of if)
As I see it, there are four layers of tango learning (from the top to the
foundation).
4) Step Patterns and Choreographies
3) Structure of the Dance
2) Quality of Movement
1) Rhythm - the foundation
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:18:15 +1000
From: garybarn@ozemail.com.au
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Approaches to Learning and Authencity (or the
lack of if)
Based on my limited sample, I think that what many teachers of tango
do is at best extremely inefficient for helping people become social
tango dancers, and at worst counter-productive. And yes, this does
include some big names.
OTOH, there are also many individuals who are successful at this
goal. This seems to often be because they see it as their primary
goal - either because they are not driven by a commercial imperative,
or because they see the building of a social tango community as being
in their commercial interests.
I think that 'structure of the dance', as formal knowledge, is an
optional layer, at least for dancers. An analytical framework for
codifying structure, and the resulting code, can be a very useful
learning tool for some people, and has definitely led to a few people
finding new possibilties. However, it also seems quite clear that
many good dancers - including older dancers in Daniel Trenners videos
- do not have a structural framework. They have no theory, they just
do what they do. If asked why, they will say 'I don't know', or make
something up. This does not mean that there is no structure to what
they do, just that a formal understanding of that structure is not
necessary to do it. (Or, you could say they have an intuitive or
subconscious understanding, not a rational one.)
Classes that I have been to that use structural models as teaching
aids definitely work for some people - they become more able to dance
and improvise as a result. But for most, it is an unnecessary and
confusing extra layer of thinking. And for followers, it has almost
nothing to offer.
I think the idea that everyone will just learn by doing, without
teaching, is equally flawed, though it is true for a small minority
of women. I have seen it _not_ work plenty of times. Having large
numbers of people wanting to learn tango, from a starting base of a
very small number of good dancers, is a difficult problem to solve.
Those with the best aptitude will always learn anyway, but the great
mass of us will not. So, I am always keen to find different ideas
as to what we can do in our tango community to have more people learn.
An analogy with language learning is perhaps illuminating: small
children learn to speak without much or any formal teaching, but with
a large amount of exposure, demonstration, and correction. Yet, very
few adults can learn language like this, and we resort to having to
formally learn structure of the language - even for languages like
English where the structures are famously inconsistent.
Tango teaching has come a long way in a few years, but has a long way
to go.
Many are trying, and there are some successes. Its great to hear
about some of them on this list - it makes all the carping and nay-
saying bearable!
Cheers
gary
On 19/07/2007, at 4:11 AM, Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org wrote:
> As I see it, there are four layers of tango learning (from the top
> to the
> foundation).
>
> 4) Step Patterns and Choreographies
> 3) Structure of the Dance
> 2) Quality of Movement
> 1) Rhythm - the foundation
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 04:54 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Approaches to Learning and Authencity (or the
lack of if)
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Gary wrote:
> the idea that everyone will just learn by doing, without teaching, is
> equally flawed
Agreed. And no-one in this debate has suggested otherwise.
> small children learn to speak without much or any formal teaching ...
> Yet, very few adults can learn language like this
Many adults /can/... if they give it as much time and attention as does the
child. Their problem is won't, not can't. Likewise in tango learning.
Hence the attraction of the class route, presenting tango as a pattern
dance. If people understood that learning it was more like learning an
instrument, then the learning success rate would be much higher.
But of course the teaching income would be far lower. Economic natural
selection favours teachers who present tango as a pattern dance...
to beginners through prescriptive steps, right up to so-called
advanced through this so-called structural analysis / tango grammar.
Manuel wrote:
> I agree with "improving the damned men", but if you follow Chris'
> arguments, this is impossible.
Nonsense.
> Chris argues, nay, rails against all teachers and their teaching.
More nonsense. E.g. see my Tango-L message https://tinyurl.com/24rku7 .
> How in the hell is anyone going to improve the damned men?
Well, you could find the teachers Tete was referring to when he said:
"There are only between 5-10 tango teachers that can really teach you how
to dance tango." https://tinyurl.com/2f99up
Or you could try something else. ;)
--
Chris
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:02:34 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Approaches to Learning and Authencity (or the
lack of if)
To: tl2@chrisjj.com, "Tango-L" <Tango-L@MIT.EDU>
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 04:54:00 +0100, "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> said:
> Gary wrote:
>
> But of course the teaching income would be far lower. Economic natural
> selection favours teachers who present tango as a pattern dance...
> to beginners through prescriptive steps, right up to so-called
> advanced through this so-called structural analysis / tango grammar.
This statement has no evidence to back it up. I've heard some
people who know diddly about teaching tango (and indeed diddly
about the dance), say that beginners need to learn steps to feel
like they have something worthwhile.
However, the universe is full of step merchants barely able to
pay for their studio, teaching classes of 8 to 12 beginners and
4 to 6 intermediates, having to find new students all the time,
etc.
What I think:
Outside of being a name brand (Fabian, Gustavo, Chicho, Pablo,
Julio and a few others), what makes a teacher economically
viable is how much fun his or her students have in classes.
No other criteria deserve mention. For that matter, I'm sure
that name brand or no, people who can't put a smile on their
student's faces aren't going to remain a name brand for long.
So at one extreme, you have people like Fernanda Ghi and
Guillermo Merlo, and at the other extreme you have your
Brigitte Winklers and Thomas Howlins of the world. They're
all a lot of fun and they all do fairly well.
That being said, I see a significant movement among some of
the people organizing the larger festivals in the US (like
the ones in Atlanta and Denver) to bring on teachers who
don't teach steps per se. Rather, they intend to equip
students with the tools needed to do anything their bodies
might need to do in the dance, up to and including a good
appreciation of the music, along with the the ability to
respond to it in a way that's both emotional and disciplined.
And before we get all uppity at the step merchants, it's
also clear to me that once you have embedded the basics of
tango movement in your muscle memory, they are extremely
valuable for showing you all kinds of cool things that you
never thought of. There's always a place in the world for
a some of those.
Christopher
