4604 Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:43:35 -0400
From: "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: tango-l@mit.edu
One of the aspects that I?ve long noticed on this board is the disdain,
bordering on intolerance, of other forms of dance as well as even
variations between the styles of Argentine tango. We are disappointed when
we see any dance referred to as tango, but it is not ?our? tango. Did we
really expect to see a couple dancing beautiful salon style around the
stage? Even if it had been Argentine tango, it would have most certainly
been stage tango, which a number of people here don?t consider ?real? tango
either. Are we really so afraid that our Argentine tango is so frail that
it must be defended else it will be overwhelmed and disappear?
Here?s news. When the overwhelming majority of people in the world
(atleast outside South America) hear ?tango? (and perhaps the way many of
us thought before we learned different), they could really care less about
all the variations we take so seriously. What distinguishes tango for them
is a very special dance that comes across as passionate, sensual, and
involves an intricate and intimate connection between a man and woman. In
spite of their naivete about the variations, even if they never learn
anything more, are they really all that wrong?
I hope most people here are well-rounded enough to have interests beyond
the narrow confines of tango, as fascinating as it is. Because we might
love steak doesn?t mean we don?t enjoy fish and vegetables and flan con
dulce de leche. Because we have a passion for tango doesn?t mean other
forms of dance are any less valid or might not actually be enjoyable. We
can love to dance our tango and still appreciate the talents of Fred
Astaire, Michael Baryshnikov, Bill Robinson, and Frankie Manning.
Shows like ?Dancing with the Stars? and ?So You Think You Can Dance? can
admittedly be pretty cheesy and very easy to criticize from a ?real?
dancer?s perspective. (Though compared to a lot of other garbage on TV, to
me they fare at least equal, if not somewhat better.) But one thing they
are accomplishing is the promotion of dancing. They get people interested
in dancing and for every 100 people who might get motivated to get up off
the couch or come in from the golf course and try dancing, maybe one or two
of them will be lucky enough to stumble their way into the magical dance of
Argentine tango we know and love. And the great thing about tango, they
might just end up being that one special partner that gives us that perfect
tango moment we all dance for.
To me, the more people who discover dancing, the more people who will come
to learn, appreciate, and love our very special tango.
WBSmith
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
https://mail2web.com/ .
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 16:27:53 EDT
From: JFPaloma@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: tango-l@mit.edu
To WBSmith:
The opinion I expressed at what I saw on Dancing with the Stars last night
was not "disdain bordering on intolerance" as you interpreted it to be but
simply profound disappointment and bewilderment that a show with all the money
and resources at hand could not have made more of an effort to present good
Argentine tango. Naturally, when Dancing with the Stars presents Argentine
Tango, we all expect stage tango. But good stage tango, please.
You don't announce at a car show that you're going to present a Mercedes and
then bring out a Ford with a Mercedes hood ornament. It doesn't matter if
the Mercedes is a sedan or sports model, it doesn't matter what color it is,
what matters is that it is a real Mercedes.
WBSmith said "because we might love steak doesn't mean we don't enjoy fish
and vegetables..." True but when a restaurant offers steak, I want a good cut
and cooked properly. I don't want a slab of meat dumped on my plate.
And please WBSmith don't assume you are the only one who has an appreciation
of Fred Astaire, Baryshnikov and Bojangles. Loving those talented artists
doesn't mean I have to accept sloppy tango done to bad music in order to prove
I'm "well-rounded".
What was on TV last night was not "passionate, sensual and involves an
intricate and intimate connection between a man and woman". It had none of those
elements and all the aspects of a bad apache dance.
Argentine Tango gets so few chances to be seen by millions of people and
last night was the perfect opportunity to erase stereotypes about the dance and
show its true artistry. I've talked to many people today who saw the show
and all have said that the tango they saw was brutish and harsh and showed no
trace at all of emotional beauty I've been telling them.
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:37 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
WBSmith wrote
> the more people who discover dancing, the more people who will
> come to learn, appreciate, and love our very special tango.
The more people of good taste who believe the grotesque parodies that
these shows present as Argentine Tango, the more will decide to steer well
clear of it.
Here, public awareness of social dance is so scant that for a guy to
reveal at say a party that he was a tango dancer was likely to get him
mistaken for (ironically) gay. That was before these shows aired. Since
they aired, he is much more likely to be mistaken for a complete asshole.
On the subject of which, tango people around here have been wondering who
were the couple Vincent & Flavia who won the UK pre-championship for the
Bs As IV Campeonato Mundial de Baile. It seems no-one had heard of them or
ever seen them dancing in the milongas. Mystery solved. They are stars of
the UK version of "Dancing with the Stars":
https://www.flashbuilder.net/host/rumbatango/video.mpg
https://www.rumbatango.com/
Now WB, I wonder how you'd feel if US Argentine Tango was represented at
world level by the winners of US Dancing with the Stars...
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
*From:* "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
*To:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:43:35 -0400
One of the aspects that I?ve long noticed on this board is the disdain,
bordering on intolerance, of other forms of dance as well as even
variations between the styles of Argentine tango. We are disappointed when
we see any dance referred to as tango, but it is not ?our? tango. Did we
really expect to see a couple dancing beautiful salon style around the
stage? Even if it had been Argentine tango, it would have most certainly
been stage tango, which a number of people here don?t consider ?real? tango
either. Are we really so afraid that our Argentine tango is so frail that
it must be defended else it will be overwhelmed and disappear?
Here?s news. When the overwhelming majority of people in the world
(atleast outside South America) hear ?tango? (and perhaps the way many of
us thought before we learned different), they could really care less about
all the variations we take so seriously. What distinguishes tango for them
is a very special dance that comes across as passionate, sensual, and
involves an intricate and intimate connection between a man and woman. In
spite of their naivete about the variations, even if they never learn
anything more, are they really all that wrong?
I hope most people here are well-rounded enough to have interests beyond
the narrow confines of tango, as fascinating as it is. Because we might
love steak doesn?t mean we don?t enjoy fish and vegetables and flan con
dulce de leche. Because we have a passion for tango doesn?t mean other
forms of dance are any less valid or might not actually be enjoyable. We
can love to dance our tango and still appreciate the talents of Fred
Astaire, Michael Baryshnikov, Bill Robinson, and Frankie Manning.
Shows like ?Dancing with the Stars? and ?So You Think You Can Dance? can
admittedly be pretty cheesy and very easy to criticize from a ?real?
dancer?s perspective. (Though compared to a lot of other garbage on TV, to
me they fare at least equal, if not somewhat better.) But one thing they
are accomplishing is the promotion of dancing. They get people interested
in dancing and for every 100 people who might get motivated to get up off
the couch or come in from the golf course and try dancing, maybe one or two
of them will be lucky enough to stumble their way into the magical dance of
Argentine tango we know and love. And the great thing about tango, they
might just end up being that one special partner that gives us that perfect
tango moment we all dance for.
To me, the more people who discover dancing, the more people who will come
to learn, appreciate, and love our very special tango.
WBSmith
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
https://mail2web.com/ .
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 16:42:40 -0400
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: tango-l@mit.edu
JFPaloma@aol.com wrote:
>
>To WBSmith:
>
>The opinion I expressed at what I saw on Dancing with the Stars last night
>was not "disdain bordering on intolerance" as you interpreted it to be but
>simply profound disappointment and bewilderment that a show with all the money
>and resources at hand could not have made more of an effort to present good
>Argentine tango. Naturally, when Dancing with the Stars presents Argentine
>Tango, we all expect stage tango. But good stage tango, please.
>
Tango is hard, remember? It takes years of work. The goal of the show is
for a bunch of complete neophytes to look good with very limited
preparation -- that's what makes it a contest and generates the tension
for the show. I'll bet that all the other dancers watching were rolling
their eyes too ("you call that mambo?!") Guess I'm saying the context
shouldn't be forgotten. I'd have been surprised if they'd actually done
something else....
Jeff
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 17:01:00 EDT
From: JFPaloma@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: tango-l@mit.edu
>
Tango is hard, remember? It takes years of work. The goal of the show is
for a bunch of complete neophytes to look good with very limited
preparation -- that's what makes it a contest and generates the tension
for the show. I'll bet that all the other dancers watching were rolling
their eyes too ("you call that mambo?!") Guess I'm saying the context
shouldn't be forgotten. I'd have been surprised if they'd actually done
something else....
Jeff
I think you missed the point, Jeff. The Argentine tango was not presented
as part of the competition but as an exhibition by "professional tango
dancers". This was announced both Tuesday and Wednesday night.
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:00:53 -0600
From: dschmitz@magellan.teq.stortek.com (Dave Schmitz)
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: dschmitz@magellan.teq.stortek.com
> You don't announce at a car show that you're going to present a Mercedes and
> then bring out a Ford with a Mercedes hood ornament.
That would be an insult to the Ford!
Back on topic, I feel time is better spent dancing
than watching television.
One of the last times my TV set was on, other than
for the rare videotape, was when PBS broadcast
a fund-raising tango show with only 3% social tango --
the little snippet with Mingo, Ester, etc.
At least I got to see my friends who volunteered to
answer the phones.
Shut the TV off
and dance!
A Loyal Ford Fan,
DJ Dave de Denver
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 17:11:04 -0400
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
Fair enough. Mea culpa....
JFPaloma@aol.com wrote:
>Tango is hard, remember? It takes years of work. The goal of the show is
>for a bunch of complete neophytes to look good with very limited
>preparation -- that's what makes it a contest and generates the tension
>for the show. I'll bet that all the other dancers watching were rolling
>their eyes too ("you call that mambo?!") Guess I'm saying the context
>shouldn't be forgotten. I'd have been surprised if they'd actually done
>something else....
>
>Jeff
>
>I think you missed the point, Jeff. The Argentine tango was not presented
>as part of the competition but as an exhibition by "professional tango
>dancers". This was announced both Tuesday and Wednesday night.
>
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 05:40:29 +0800
From: Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: tango-l@mit.edu
JFPaloma@aol.com wrote:
>
> Argentine Tango gets so few chances to be seen by millions of people and
> last night was the perfect opportunity to erase stereotypes about the dance and
> show its true artistry. I've talked to many people today who saw the show
> and all have said that the tango they saw was brutish and harsh and showed no
> trace at all of emotional beauty I've been telling them.
We all lament how tango is under-represented or mis-represented in
mainstream media,
but unfortunately few of us do anything to redress that. How many of us
go beyond our
own simple enjoyment of the dance, into demonstrating, choreographing,
speaking or
writing on the subject for the laymen?
My perception is that the typical tanguero is a more introverted,
reserved and shy person
compared to a ballroom, latin, salsa, swing or belly dancer. He is more
likely to pursue his
obsession quietly by himself, and treat his milonga outings as a
sanctuary to escape from
the mundane life.
In view of such "monk-like" detachment to keeping the dance pure and
pristine for oneself,
is it any wonder that the public images are shaped largely by
non-experienced dancers,
flamboyant showmen, self-promoting entertainers, and TV producers.
Didn't a wise man once said "History is made by those who show up"? We
need more
celebrities and media personalities who understand tango -- like Duvall
-- and tango
artistes who have the crossover appeal to bring tango into the popular
genres.
Or contribute a small step ourselves, by writing a magazine article or
posting a video to
Youtube. Talking endlessly within the community cannot change the world.
Kace
tangosingapore.com
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:17:21 EDT
From: JFPaloma@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Kace,
When you throw out a generalization it's a good idea to duck because
generalizations can be like boomerangs. I am compelled to address your boomerang...
"how many of us go beyond our own simple enjoyment of the dance into
demonstrating, choreographing, speaking or writing on the subject for the laymen?"
I am a professional television/film writer with a long list of credits. At
each and every opportunity if appropriate to the story, I include a scene
with tango. Even though all my scripts make it into production, none of these
scenes has yet to be shot. If there is interest in including a dance scene,
the producers want it to be a salsa dance. I recently wrote a romantic
comedy into which crept tango characters and, therefore, a lot of the action ends
up taking place at a dance studio and a milonga. The producer from New York
called to tell me how much he loved the script, how it made him both laugh
and cry at the same moment... and then the deal breaker... would I change all
the tango scenes into salsa scenes.
So there are those of us who constantly go beyond our own enjoyment of the
dance.
Additionally, and this is the real irony...
My husband and I are co-owners of a dance studio devoted to Argentine Tango.
It also happens to be one of the studios that Dancing with the Stars uses
for their rehearsals. I am in touch with their production people on a regular
basis and yet when the time came for them to include a tango exhibition, it
never occurred to them to even ask us to point them in the right direction.
So, Kace, whattya gonna do?
This studio is owned by four of us who all have regular careers and jobs.
We took out second mortgages on our homes to open the studio and we spend all
our free time doing everything we can to tell the world about the joy of
Tango.
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:17:21 +1000
From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<9fb1555a0609211717i4559c965rc13dfcaab075fb5a@mail.gmail.com>
The fact that argentine tango is a cultural dance seems to have been totally
overlooked by American 'teachers' too.
Neil
On 9/22/06, JFPaloma@aol.com <JFPaloma@aol.com> wrote:
>
> I would encourage everyone who has an opinion about what was presented as
> Argentine Tango last night on DWTS to e-mail the show. Argentine Tango
> will
> always be looked upon as a step-child by mainstream shows/films and their
> producers unless there is a tremendous and articulate protest.
>
> We need to do this, not only to defend the dance we all love, but so that
> what we saw last night doesn't stay inside us and eat us up.
>
> And we need to address the fact that when a presentation of
> Argentine Tango
> is made, the music should be a TANGO. The fact that Argentine Tango is a
> cultural dance seems to have been totally overlooked by the producers
> and the
> music director.
>
>
> If you go to abc.com and then to the Dancing With the Stars
> message board,
> you will see that the thread about bad tango performances has already
> started.
> But at this point there are only a few. If the message board is flooded
> with postings, the producers will pay attention.
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 15:55:10 EDT
From: JFPaloma@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: tango-l@mit.edu
To WBSmith:
The opinion I expressed at what I saw on Dancing with the Stars last night
was not "disdain bordering on intolerance" as you interpreted it to be but
simply profound disappointment and bewilderment that a show with all the money
and resources at hand could not have made more of an effort to present good
Argentine tango. Naturally, when Dancing with the Stars presents Argentine
Tango, we all expect stage tango. But good stage tango, please.
You don't announce at a car show that you're going to present a Mercedes and
then bring out a Ford with a Mercedes hood ornament. It doesn't matter if
the Mercedes is a sedan or sports model, it doesn't matter what color it is,
what matters is that it is a real Mercedes.
WBSmith said "because we might love steak doesn't mean we don't enjoy fish
and vegetables..." True but when a restaurant offers steak, I want a good cut
and cooked properly. I don't want a slab of meat dumped on my plate.
And please WBSmith don't assume you are the only one who has an appreciation
of Fred Astaire, Baryshnikov and Bojangles. Loving those talented artists
doesn't mean I have to accept sloppy tango done to bad music in order to prove
I'm "well-rounded".
What was on TV last night was not "passionate, sensual and involves an
intricate and intimate connection between a man and woman". It had none of those
elements and all the aspects of a bad apache dance.
Argentine Tango gets so few chances to be seen by millions of people and
last night was the perfect opportunity to erase stereotypes about the dance and
show its true artistry. I've talked to many people today who saw the show
and all have said that the tango they saw was brutish and harsh and showed no
trace at all of emotional beauty I've been telling them.
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:52:45 +0800
From: Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: JFPaloma@aol.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
JFPaloma@aol.com wrote:
> Kace,
>
> When you throw out a generalization it's a good idea to duck because
> generalizations can be like boomerangs. I am compelled to address your boomerang...
> ...
> So, Kace, whattya gonna do?
>
There is no need to get defensive as my comments were not an accusation,
merely
an observation -- that tango people are quiet and not attention-seeking,
and that
could be detrimental to the creation of positive PR for tango, since
unqualified people
are going to try to do it for you anyway.
I do not feel compelled to pull out my credentials, which is after all
very similar to
the hundreds of fanatics around the world who took it upon themselves to
launch
tango communities in their corners of the world: organising milongas,
running
workshops, sending press releases to the media, operating dance studios, and
then one day, finally, quitting our day jobs to pursue this full time,
plus spending
some time living in Buenos Aires.
Like I said, history is made by those who show up for the action.
Kace
tangosingapore.com
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:23:37 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
Authenticity is an illusive thing in Argentine tango. There are
people who fake the dance and there are also people who fake the
culture. I know many foreigners who are much more Argentine than the
Argentines are. Are they faking it? I think not. To preserve the
culture, you need the authentic and the fake, and only when they
meet, the nature of each is revealed.
The interesting thing is that we associate tango with Argentina,
while most Argentines do not associate themselves with the
tango. Many Argentines profoundly dislike it. These Argentine
people, who live in the modern Argentine culture, do not live in the
culture of tango.
If the dance is authentic, it speaks a universal language. It is
impossible to teach the culture of the dance to people who have no
emotional connection to that culture. But it is possible to teach
them to dance in an authentic way.
Best regards,
Nina
At 06:17 PM 9/21/2006, you wrote:
>The fact that argentine tango is a cultural dance seems to have been totally
>overlooked by American 'teachers' too.
>
>Neil
>
>
>On 9/22/06, JFPaloma@aol.com <JFPaloma@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would encourage everyone who has an opinion about what was presented as
> > Argentine Tango last night on DWTS to e-mail the show. Argentine Tango
> > will
> > always be looked upon as a step-child by mainstream shows/films and their
> > producers unless there is a tremendous and articulate protest.
> >
> > We need to do this, not only to defend the dance we all love, but so that
> > what we saw last night doesn't stay inside us and eat us up.
> >
> > And we need to address the fact that when a presentation of
> > Argentine Tango
> > is made, the music should be a TANGO. The fact that Argentine Tango is a
> > cultural dance seems to have been totally overlooked by the producers
> > and the
> > music director.
> >
> >
> > If you go to abc.com and then to the Dancing With the Stars
> > message board,
> > you will see that the thread about bad tango performances has already
> > started.
> > But at this point there are only a few. If the message board is flooded
> > with postings, the producers will pay attention.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:07:13 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>, TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
Nina,
The "culture of Tango*" in Argentina is an invention of romantic souls. There are Argentine societal and behavioral norms and customs which are part of its Culture, and Tango, as well as all the other dances, are innately danced conforming to those. Just like in your country.
"Authenticity" is yet another elusive romantic invention. I surmise that you are knowledgeable about the evolution of the "authenticity" movement in classical music. Same thing. It cannot be achieved, and even if we could get it, as authentic as it can be, ( via a time machine?), chances are we wouldn't like it, for our behavior and tastes have evolved (how would you like to dance in public with a stranger who presses your pelvis against his, with the hand on your derriere? but then...)
Lucia :-)
PS *There is a lively Business of Tango instead, maintaining the illusions....
Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> escribi?: Authenticity is an illusive thing in Argentine tango. There are
people who fake the dance and there are also people who fake the
culture. I know many foreigners who are much more Argentine than the
Argentines are. Are they faking it? I think not. To preserve the
culture, you need the authentic and the fake, and only when they
meet, the nature of each is revealed.
The interesting thing is that we associate tango with Argentina,
while most Argentines do not associate themselves with the
tango. Many Argentines profoundly dislike it. These Argentine
people, who live in the modern Argentine culture, do not live in the
culture of tango.
If the dance is authentic, it speaks a universal language. It is
impossible to teach the culture of the dance to people who have no
emotional connection to that culture. But it is possible to teach
them to dance in an authentic way.
Best regards,
Nina
At 06:17 PM 9/21/2006, you wrote:
>The fact that argentine tango is a cultural dance seems to have been totally
>overlooked by American 'teachers' too.
>
>Neil
>
>
>On 9/22/06, JFPaloma@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > I would encourage everyone who has an opinion about what was presented as
> > Argentine Tango last night on DWTS to e-mail the show. Argentine Tango
> > will
> > always be looked upon as a step-child by mainstream shows/films and their
> > producers unless there is a tremendous and articulate protest.
> >
> > We need to do this, not only to defend the dance we all love, but so that
> > what we saw last night doesn't stay inside us and eat us up.
> >
> > And we need to address the fact that when a presentation of
> > Argentine Tango
> > is made, the music should be a TANGO. The fact that Argentine Tango is a
> > cultural dance seems to have been totally overlooked by the producers
> > and the
> > music director.
> >
> >
> > If you go to abc.com and then to the Dancing With the Stars
> > message board,
> > you will see that the thread about bad tango performances has already
> > started.
> > But at this point there are only a few. If the message board is flooded
> > with postings, the producers will pay attention.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Pregunt?. Respond?. Descubr?.
Todo lo que quer?as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas,
est? en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta).
Probalo ya!
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 08:38:37 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
Hi. Lucia,
Hmm.. You referred to 'my country". Which is
that? I have not been able to figure that out
I never mentioned that "the culture of tango'" is
something desirable. I did not say one way or
another any judgement about it. If not
desirable, then those romantic souls that you
refer to had made a big mistake.inventing it and need to apologize. :-)
Authenticity is simple. Do you pretend or do you
live the role? There are people who live
authentic lives, and there are those who do
not. Which is which shows in their actions. If
you think that there is no "authenticity" in
tango, or anything else, just try learning the
Stanislavsky acting method and try to apply it to
tango or something else! You might be amazed.
But, then, like the line from the film 'American
Beauty" goes , "Never underestimate the power of denial!" :-)
Nina
At 08:07 AM 9/22/2006, you wrote:
>Nina,
>
>The "culture of Tango*" in Argentina is an
>invention of romantic souls. There are Argentine
>societal and behavioral norms and customs which
>are part of its Culture, and Tango, as well as
>all the other dances, are innately danced
>conforming to those. Just like in your country.
>
> "Authenticity" is yet another elusive romantic
> invention. I surmise that you are knowledgeable
> about the evolution of the "authenticity"
> movement in classical music. Same thing. It
> cannot be achieved, and even if we could get
> it, as authentic as it can be, ( via a time
> machine?), chances are we wouldn't like it, for
> our behavior and tastes have evolved (how would
> you like to dance in public with a stranger who
> presses your pelvis against his, with the hand on your derriere? but then...)
>
>Lucia :-)
>
>PS *There is a lively Business of Tango instead, maintaining the illusions....
>
>Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> escribi?:
>Authenticity is an illusive thing in Argentine tango. There are
>people who fake the dance and there are also people who fake the
>culture. I know many foreigners who are much more Argentine than the
>Argentines are. Are they faking it? I think not. To preserve the
>culture, you need the authentic and the fake, and only when they
>meet, the nature of each is revealed.
>
>The interesting thing is that we associate tango with Argentina,
>while most Argentines do not associate themselves with the
>tango. Many Argentines profoundly dislike it. These Argentine
>people, who live in the modern Argentine culture, do not live in the
>culture of tango.
>
>If the dance is authentic, it speaks a universal language. It is
>impossible to teach the culture of the dance to people who have no
>emotional connection to that culture. But it is possible to teach
>them to dance in an authentic way.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Nina
>
>
>At 06:17 PM 9/21/2006, you wrote:
> >The fact that argentine tango is a cultural dance seems to have been totally
> >overlooked by American 'teachers' too.
> >
> >Neil
> >
> >
> >On 9/22/06, JFPaloma@aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > I would encourage everyone who has an opinion about what was presented as
> > > Argentine Tango last night on DWTS to e-mail the show. Argentine Tango
> > > will
> > > always be looked upon as a step-child by mainstream shows/films and their
> > > producers unless there is a tremendous and articulate protest.
> > >
> > > We need to do this, not only to defend the dance we all love, but so that
> > > what we saw last night doesn't stay inside us and eat us up.
> > >
> > > And we need to address the fact that when a presentation of
> > > Argentine Tango
> > > is made, the music should be a TANGO. The fact that Argentine Tango is a
> > > cultural dance seems to have been totally overlooked by the producers
> > > and the
> > > music director.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you go to abc.com and then to the Dancing With the Stars
> > > message board,
> > > you will see that the thread about bad tango performances has already
> > > started.
> > > But at this point there are only a few. If the message board is flooded
> > > with postings, the producers will pay attention.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Pregunt?. Respond?. Descubr?.
>Todo lo que quer?as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas,
>est? en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta).
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:46:07 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>, TANGO-L@mit.edu
Hi Nina,
In my response I thought that you refered to authenticity of the technical dance.
But you are refering to the "authenticity" of the dancer, which is even better.
There are authentic, "living their lives" persons in Buenos Aires, New York, Hamburg and all the other port cities that hark back to the portenos of yore. These are the stevedores, the garbage men, the construction workers, the prostitutes, the policemen, etc.
The problem is that few of these persons dance the Tango. Which is a pity, since they have the forcefulness, the physique, the attitude, to make great Tango dancers.
To resolve the problem of incapability of the current generation of Tango dancers to live up to the "authentic image" of the old-time portenos, you suggest that they take acting classes...This is gooood, very very gooood!!!! You made my weekend!
Regards,
Lucia
Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> escribi?:
Authenticity is simple. Do you pretend or do you
live the role? There are people who live
authentic lives, and there are those who do
not. Which is which shows in their actions. If
you think that there is no "authenticity" in
tango, or anything else, just try learning the
Stanislavsky acting method and try to apply it to
tango or something else! You might be amazed.
But, then, like the line from the film 'American
Beauty" goes , "Never underestimate the power of denial!" :-)
Nina
At 08:07 AM 9/22/2006, you wrote:
>Nina,
>
>The "culture of Tango*" in Argentina is an
>invention of romantic souls. There are Argentine
>societal and behavioral norms and customs which
>are part of its Culture, and Tango, as well as
>all the other dances, are innately danced
>conforming to those. Just like in your country.
>
> "Authenticity" is yet another elusive romantic
> invention. I surmise that you are knowledgeable
> about the evolution of the "authenticity"
> movement in classical music. Same thing. It
> cannot be achieved, and even if we could get
> it, as authentic as it can be, ( via a time
> machine?), chances are we wouldn't like it, for
> our behavior and tastes have evolved (how would
> you like to dance in public with a stranger who
> presses your pelvis against his, with the hand on your derriere? but then...)
>
>Lucia :-)
>
>PS *There is a lively Business of Tango instead, maintaining the illusions....
>
>Nina Pesochinsky escribi?:
>Authenticity is an illusive thing in Argentine tango. There are
>people who fake the dance and there are also people who fake the
>culture. I know many foreigners who are much more Argentine than the
>Argentines are. Are they faking it? I think not. To preserve the
>culture, you need the authentic and the fake, and only when they
>meet, the nature of each is revealed.
>
>The interesting thing is that we associate tango with Argentina,
>while most Argentines do not associate themselves with the
>tango. Many Argentines profoundly dislike it. These Argentine
>people, who live in the modern Argentine culture, do not live in the
>culture of tango.
>
>If the dance is authentic, it speaks a universal language. It is
>impossible to teach the culture of the dance to people who have no
>emotional connection to that culture. But it is possible to teach
>them to dance in an authentic way.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Nina
>
>
>At 06:17 PM 9/21/2006, you wrote:
> >The fact that argentine tango is a cultural dance seems to have been totally
> >overlooked by American 'teachers' too.
> >
> >Neil
> >
> >
> >On 9/22/06, JFPaloma@aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > I would encourage everyone who has an opinion about what was presented as
> > > Argentine Tango last night on DWTS to e-mail the show. Argentine Tango
> > > will
> > > always be looked upon as a step-child by mainstream shows/films and their
> > > producers unless there is a tremendous and articulate protest.
> > >
> > > We need to do this, not only to defend the dance we all love, but so that
> > > what we saw last night doesn't stay inside us and eat us up.
> > >
> > > And we need to address the fact that when a presentation of
> > > Argentine Tango
> > > is made, the music should be a TANGO. The fact that Argentine Tango is a
> > > cultural dance seems to have been totally overlooked by the producers
> > > and the
> > > music director.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you go to abc.com and then to the Dancing With the Stars
> > > message board,
> > > you will see that the thread about bad tango performances has already
> > > started.
> > > But at this point there are only a few. If the message board is flooded
> > > with postings, the producers will pay attention.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Pregunt?. Respond?. Descubr?.
>Todo lo que quer?as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas,
>est? en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta).
>Probalo ya!
Pregunt?. Respond?. Descubr?.
Todo lo que quer?as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas,
est? en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta).
Probalo ya!
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 10:19:55 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
Hi, Lucia,
Is there really such a problem "of incapability
of the current generation of Tango dancers to
live up to the "authentic image" of the old-time portenos"?
The question was that tango is a culture-based
dance. Some Argentines believe that the real
"knowledge" of tango was bestowed upon them by
the higher power and that if you were not born
Argentine, you can never have it. So the other
suggestion, given the cultural climate that you
seem to suggest where "authentic "people do not
dance tango, is that if dancers somehow turn
themselves Argentine (instead of "turning
Japanese", like the famous song with a double
meaning implies), they might get some crumbs of that mystical knowledge. :-)
Or they can just just say "Who cares?!" and move
on. No need to get stuck in the past.
Have a great weekend!
Nina
>To resolve the problem of incapability of the
>current generation of Tango dancers to live up
>to the "authentic image" of the old-time
>portenos, you suggest that they take acting
>classes...This is gooood, very very gooood!!!! You made my weekend!
>
>Regards,
>
>Lucia
>
>
>
>
>Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> escribi?:
>Authenticity is simple. Do you pretend or do you
>live the role? There are people who live
>authentic lives, and there are those who do
>not. Which is which shows in their actions. If
>you think that there is no "authenticity" in
>tango, or anything else, just try learning the
>Stanislavsky acting method and try to apply it to
>tango or something else! You might be amazed.
>
>But, then, like the line from the film 'American
>Beauty" goes , "Never underestimate the power of denial!" :-)
>
>Nina
>
>
>
>
>At 08:07 AM 9/22/2006, you wrote:
> >Nina,
> >
> >The "culture of Tango*" in Argentina is an
> >invention of romantic souls. There are Argentine
> >societal and behavioral norms and customs which
> >are part of its Culture, and Tango, as well as
> >all the other dances, are innately danced
> >conforming to those. Just like in your country.
> >
> > "Authenticity" is yet another elusive romantic
> > invention. I surmise that you are knowledgeable
> > about the evolution of the "authenticity"
> > movement in classical music. Same thing. It
> > cannot be achieved, and even if we could get
> > it, as authentic as it can be, ( via a time
> > machine?), chances are we wouldn't like it, for
> > our behavior and tastes have evolved (how would
> > you like to dance in public with a stranger who
> > presses your pelvis against his, with the
> hand on your derriere? but then...)
> >
> >Lucia :-)
> >
> >PS *There is a lively Business of Tango
> instead, maintaining the illusions....
> >
> >Nina Pesochinsky escribi?:
> >Authenticity is an illusive thing in Argentine tango. There are
> >people who fake the dance and there are also people who fake the
> >culture. I know many foreigners who are much more Argentine than the
> >Argentines are. Are they faking it? I think not. To preserve the
> >culture, you need the authentic and the fake, and only when they
> >meet, the nature of each is revealed.
> >
> >The interesting thing is that we associate tango with Argentina,
> >while most Argentines do not associate themselves with the
> >tango. Many Argentines profoundly dislike it. These Argentine
> >people, who live in the modern Argentine culture, do not live in the
> >culture of tango.
> >
> >If the dance is authentic, it speaks a universal language. It is
> >impossible to teach the culture of the dance to people who have no
> >emotional connection to that culture. But it is possible to teach
> >them to dance in an authentic way.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >Nina
> >
> >
> >At 06:17 PM 9/21/2006, you wrote:
> > >The fact that argentine tango is a cultural
> dance seems to have been totally
> > >overlooked by American 'teachers' too.
> > >
> > >Neil
> > >
> > >
> > >On 9/22/06, JFPaloma@aol.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I would encourage everyone who has an
> opinion about what was presented as
> > > > Argentine Tango last night on DWTS to e-mail the show. Argentine Tango
> > > > will
> > > > always be looked upon as a step-child by
> mainstream shows/films and their
> > > > producers unless there is a tremendous and articulate protest.
> > > >
> > > > We need to do this, not only to defend
> the dance we all love, but so that
> > > > what we saw last night doesn't stay inside us and eat us up.
> > > >
> > > > And we need to address the fact that when a presentation of
> > > > Argentine Tango
> > > > is made, the music should be a TANGO. The
> fact that Argentine Tango is a
> > > > cultural dance seems to have been totally overlooked by the producers
> > > > and the
> > > > music director.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If you go to abc.com and then to the Dancing With the Stars
> > > > message board,
> > > > you will see that the thread about bad tango performances has already
> > > > started.
> > > > But at this point there are only a few. If the message board is flooded
> > > > with postings, the producers will pay attention.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Pregunt?. Respond?. Descubr?.
> >Todo lo que quer?as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas,
> >est? en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta).
> >Probalo ya!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Pregunt?. Respond?. Descubr?.
>Todo lo que quer?as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas,
>est? en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta).
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 08:06:31 +0800
From: Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango on Dancing with the Stars
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
Cc: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>, Nina Pesochinsky
<nina@earthnet.net>
Lucia wrote
> In my response I thought that you refered to authenticity of the technical dance.
> But you are refering to the "authenticity" of the dancer, which is even better.
>
> .........
> Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> escribi?:
> Authenticity is simple. Do you pretend or do you
> live the role?
Since we are splitting hairs on words, I'm going to state my own definitions
of what attracted me to Tango in the first place were:
1. Authenticity -- tango is not a "made-up" dance, springing from the
mind of
one dance "authority". Many years ago, after passing my ballroom samba
Gold Medal test, I naively thought I have "mastered" the samba. Imagine
how flabbergasted I was when I saw an authentic Brazilian samba dancers
for the first time. Tango has an authenticity that allows anyone
from anywhere
to learn the same dance as in Buenos Aires.
2. Honesty -- tango needs much less "role-playing" and "pretending to be
someone-else". All dances have a cultural context which needs to be
embraced, but many will consume the dancers e.g. role of ghetto gangsta
for hip hop dancers, role of hepcat for the lindy dancers, role of gypsy
for flamenco dancer. You can be more yourself in tango.
3. Freedom -- from early on you learn to adapt tango to yourself and not
the
other way round. How you embrace, walk, turn are all influenced by how
it feel inside more than how it look outside. As long as we stay within
certain tango paradigms (not losing the embrace, not doing solo
shines, etc)
the dancer has the freedom to create steps.
4. Emotion -- tango is the only dance I know that projects a healthy
range of
moods within an evening of dancing. Most other dances are set to
one fixed
temperature -- cha cha (cheeky), paso doble (proud), salsa
(carnival). I can
do a few songs of each, but I cannot sustain an entire evening of
such extremes.
5. Nostalgia -- tango is a mirror to an earlier, more romantic era. In
the "good
old days" gender roles were clearly defined, people went out to
ballroom to
socialise instead of watching the television, and musicians
connected at
close distance to their audiences. Tango lets us break out of our
political
correctness and return temporarily to a more macho and sensual age when
men and women know how to treat each other with respect.
6. Purity -- accomplished dancers pushing the envelope in "new tango" have
achieved a theory of pure tango -- they reduced the thousands of
steps into
logical combinations of a few weight-shifting movement that are
results of
energy transfer from lead to follow (and back again). Reduced to a
mechanical energy system, tango can be danced to any music (or no
music). This is an intellectual purity that I have only known in ballet
and mathematics, and it appeals to the right-brain in me.
Kace
tangosingapore.com
