5625 Argentines vs. non-Argentines
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 01:12:23 GMT
From: "larrynla@juno.com" <larrynla@juno.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Before you travel to Argentina you could benefit by spending some time
with Deby Novitz's often funny, often insightful online diary of her
years there since 2004. And if you want an apartment for that time she
has one in Palermo.
https://tangospam.typepad.com/
https://www.lavidacondeby.com/Home/welcome.htm
Deby writes -----------> To come here and not experience the culture -
the food - pizza, empanadas, parilla, and the many other things that
Buenos Aires has to offer is sort of sad.
I have to agree (though understand that I'm not claiming that Michael
did not). BsAs - indeed, Argentina - is a beautiful, fascinating place.
It deserves for everyone to play tourist there, in a way that respects
those around you. It would also be a good idea to learn enough Spanish
before you go so that you can get acquainted with some of the people.
Tango dancing there is wonderful, but the tango people there are
wonderfuller. Well, many of them anyway!
She also writes -----------> When people say they think that North
Americans dance better than Argentines? What your little feet are
pointing better? You have more figures?
It's my opinion that non-Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE do
dance better than Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE. Perhaps this
is comparing apples with oranges. I think it's more like comparing a
huge barrel of apples someone randomly picked with a tiny basket of
more carefully selected ones.
Or maybe it IS apples vs. oranges. I broached this subject to an
Argentine at Lo De Celia who had lived in Boston for many years. He was
amused and said something like, "You Americans! You take tango too
serious. Loosen up! Tango is for fun."
Deby also writes -----------> The one thing you do not have is that you
do not understand the music, the soul of tango. North Americans,
generally speaking are so concentrated on being the best technically
they dance without soul.
I agree with this, especially since Deby qualifies her statement as
"North Americans, GENERALLY SPEAKING..." For I believe that there are
plenty of exceptions to this description of non-Argentine tango
dancers. That there are many, all over the world, who hear tango music
and feel a deep intuitive connection to it and to what some pieces of
it tries wordless to say, and to the dance which (when we are at our
best) expresses those pieces of music.
Surely others than Argentines can feel a deep sense of loss for a time
or place or person forever lost? The joy of moving with the music and
your partner and (if we are lucky) the others in the flow of dancers
around the floor? The warmth of being with someone you like? The world-
brightening breathless excitement of embracing someone you find
attractive?
I'm sure it works the other way. That there are many Argentines who
hear the music and see the dance and are totally baffled and bored with
what they see and hear. Just as there are many Americans who hear swing
music and dancing, invented by (originally black) Americans, and are
totally baffled and bored by it.
Larry de Los Angeles - novelette "Lady Death" added to
https://ShapechangerTales.com
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 12:06:17 -0700
From: "peterwesser" <peterwesser@oregonducks.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines
To: <larrynla@juno.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Larry,
You say,
"It's my opinion that non-Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE do
dance better than Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE."
OK, you go on and modify/frame your opinion.
But still, this is quite an assertion.
Question, what are your criteria?, and what is your evidence?
Thank you,
Peter
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:15:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines
Since it's generally recognised that that the only 'real' way to assess
someone's dancing is to actually dance with them, I'm guessing that
Larry has had more success dancing with his fellow-Americans than
he has with Argentines.
Make of that what you will. But IMHO, Larry is very, very wrong to
a degree that is off the scale. In fact, his comment just boggles
my mind.
Jack
> From: peterwesser <peterwesser@oregonducks.org>
Argentines vs. non-Argentines
>
>
> Hi Larry,
> You say,
> "It's my opinion that non-Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE do
> dance better than Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE."
>
> OK, you go on and modify/frame your opinion.
> But still, this is quite an assertion.
> Question, what are your criteria?, and what is your evidence?
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 04:18:52 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines?
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>
I have asked Argentine ladies that I consider to be excellent tango dancers their opinion on this matter.
-Who dance better Argentine men or foreign men?-
They replied that foreign men seem to have a lot of technique but that Argentine men have better musicality and feeling for the music. They also told me that Argentine men have a better embrace.
When I asked what do you mean by "a lot of technique" they explained that it seems that foreign men have had lots of schooling and seem to know a lot of steps and figures.
Best regards, Sergio
Rediscover Hotmail?: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
https://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile2_042009
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 03:44:29 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines?
To: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, "Tango-L
List" <tango-l@mit.edu>
I think we're comparing apples and oranges. Tango is danced DIFFERENTLY in North America than in Argentina. In Argentina, the emphasis is on the embrace. In North America, I see open position so the embrace is not as important. In North America, the emphasis is on figures. Read the workshop announcements on Tango A. When is the last time you read about a workshop about better connection with your partner or feeling the music more?
There were a few times I danced North American style in BA. I'd lead a figure that opened the embrace and confused the woman. After a few times, I realized that was an error. In BA, no figure is worth executing if it opens the embrace. Argentine women are NOT impressed with figures, just who makes them feel the best on the dance floor.
Unfortunately, this discussion implies there are only two choices in dancing. All technique and no feeling vs. no technique and all feeling. Because of crowded dance floors in BA, feeling takes on more importance than technique.
I was told about this before I went to BA. But you have to see it to believe it.
Michael
I dance Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines?
I have asked Argentine ladies that I consider to be excellent tango dancers their opinion on this matter. Who dance better Argentine men or foreign men?
They replied that foreign men seem to have a lot of technique but that Argentine men have better musicality and feeling for the music. They also told me that Argentine men have a better embrace.
When I asked what do you mean by "a lot of technique" they explained that it seems that foreign men have had lots of schooling and seem to know a lot of steps and figures.
Best regards, Sergio
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 06:02:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines?
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>
> From: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
>
> I think we're comparing apples and oranges. Tango is danced DIFFERENTLY in North
> America than in Argentina. In Argentina, the emphasis is on the embrace. In
> North America, I see open position so the embrace is not as important. In North
> America, the emphasis is on figures. >
> From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
>
> I have asked Argentine ladies that I consider to be excellent tango dancers
> their opinion on this matter.
>
> -Who dance better Argentine men or foreign men?-
>
> They replied that foreign men seem to have a lot of technique but that Argentine
> men have better musicality and feeling for the music. They also told me that
> Argentine men have a better embrace.
>
I agree? with Michael and Sergio and their comments are pretty much what
I expected.. And they?bears out my own experiences. I'm just surprised that
Larry, with his many years of experience in Tango, just hasn't 'got it' yet.
Or maybe Larry really does believe that technique and figures are more
important than musicality and the embrace?
Jack
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:34:05 -0300
From: Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentines vs. non-Argentines
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<larrynla@juno.com> says:
> It's my opinion that non-Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE do
> dance better than Argentine tango dancers ON THE AVERAGE.
It wasn't until I read peterwesser's indignant reaction to this
assertion that I realized that it was actually saying the opposite of
what I assumed after a "speed-read" scan (I thought Larry was just
restating the mantra that Argentine's dance Tango better than
non-Argentines).
Jack Dylan's theory to explain this um ... non-conventional-wisdom was
that perhaps "Larry has had more success dancing with his
fellow-Americans than he has with Argentines."
I might venture a guess, somewhat less condescendingly, that since Larry
is a self-proclaimed Tango nuevo dancer, he speaks from that
perspective. And, notwithstanding that Tango nuevo was "invented" by
Argentines, and the best PERFORMANCE practitioners of it are probably
Argentines, it is still very much a fringe phenomenon as a SOCIALLY
relevant dance form amongst Argentines who dance Tango. Hence, it is
quite possible that non-Argentine tango dancers indeed are more
proficient in this form of Tango than Argentines (if you exclude the
Argentine professionals who are mainly dancing for exhibitions or
performances anyway), since they are probably more numerous.
And any "connection advantage" that a porte?o has from his understanding
of traditional Tango music, the lyrics, the cultural context, etc., is
negated when one is talking about nuevo tango music, much of which is
mediocre techno pop with bandoneon added.
But enough of putting words in Larry's mouth :-) he's quite capable of
explaining himself. So, Larry, care to elaborate? (I hope you don't say
that it was a typo and you meant to say the opposite -- that would be
most anticlimatic after all this build-up!)
Shahrukh
