300 Astor Piazzolla on being "Oriental"...
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 00:44:51 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Astor Piazzolla on being "Oriental"...
> I have sometimes frisked my soul for clues as to why, I, who is
> as far away from Argentina should like the music.
Because you are an emigrant, Rajan...What do you think, why I like it ?
But what a strange interview ! Reminds me of all the nonsense information
Western media write about life in Japan.
> Piazzolla: I think the sadness present in Argentine music is
> very oriental.
Most of the Orientals I have seen seemed a lot more serene, or at least
trying to appear so, than Occidentals. Gloomy soul searching is not
something typically Oriental at all.
And a lot of "Orientals" would rather be dead than be seen fretting over the
way a woman treats them.
Why is tango oriental music? Because Brazilian
> music, for example, has its roots in Africa, which is represented
> by percussion, by drums, by rhythm.
Yeah, right, and milonga and tango have part of their roots in Africa, which
is represented by big drums played by black slaves in the harbour areas of
BsAs in the early days... I thought Piazzolla knew that.
In Argentina, in tango music,
> there is no percussion, there is no rhythm, it can not be found.
No rhythm. Uhuh. Wonder how we manage to dance to that then. And what about
milonga ?
By the way, Piazzolla's grandson plays the percussion in his tango
orchestra...
> The Brazilian is extroverted, while Argentina is introverted, that
> is why he suffers not the Brazilian.
Yes. But the Oriental is not. At least the Japanese isn't, the Philippino
isn't, the Chinese isn't...Maybe the Indians, Rajan ?
Somebody called the Japanese extroverted to the extreme, hollow on the
inside, preoccupied with external appearance...
>
> Interviewer: The Brazilian experiences life collectively, the
> argentinian
> experiences life individually.
>
> Piazzolla: That's the word exactly, individual: he's a bit oriental...
Oh, rubbish. Individualism is something European and American. The Chinese
live in communism, the Japanese school system is ruled by the communist
union, everybody wants to be and look the same and does too, individualism
is only for those who want to risk being called a troublemaker .
> On the other hand, what is the bit about tango having no rhythm?? :-)
Japanese music is very low on rhythm except for the taiko drum stuff. But
that does not mean that the Japanese have any feel for the "rhythmless"
tango music. One beginner actually asked me: "Can you tell me where the beat
is in this music ? I am trying to hear it, but I don't have a clue..." If
you want to take that as a proof that Piazzolla was right- I think it rather
leads us back to the "unhappy troubled follower" problem.
; )
Astrid
commenting from the Land of the Rising Sun
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:16:39 +0200
From: Jpjacquet <jpjfilms@NOOS.FR>
Subject: Re: Astor Piazzolla on being "Oriental"...
Just a quickie on this ethnocentric or anti-ethnocentric thread. I
suspect we are dealing with a malapropism (speaking about butchering
"mal ` propos", but that is not the point...) of the word "oriental" in
a musical context: when romance languages refer to "oriental music",
they mean ,99% of the time, "middle-eastern music", not far-eastern
music; think "danse orientale" which means belly dancing, the danse of
the 7 veils, etc... The crux of middle-eastern music being the emphasis
on the driving melopoeia, trance inducing wailing (whirling dervishes,
indian gypsy stuff, Nusreet Ali Khan...), with obviousramifications in
the arabo-andaluz musical world. Of course, my point can be thrown out
with an "oriental" strain of another ilk, a quote from Confucius:
"Everything is in everything and vice-versa."
Jean-Pierre Jacquet
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:42:14 -0500
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Astor Piazzolla on being "Oriental"...
Jpjacquet wrote:
> The crux of middle-eastern music being the emphasis
> on the driving melopoeia, trance inducing wailing (whirling dervishes,
> indian gypsy stuff, Nusreet Ali Khan...),
I am with Jean-Pierre on this. But, 'gypsy stuff' comes from northern
india as was discussed on this list before. Nusreet Ali Khan is as well
liked as anyone else in northern india.
rajan.
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:33:38 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Astor Piazzolla on being "Oriental"...
>
> I am with Jean-Pierre on this. But, 'gypsy stuff' comes from northern
> india as was discussed on this list before.
Hey, you guys may be right. I have always wondered where the rhythm of
Libertango comes from. Listening to it now, it faintly reminds me of that
Indian dance (yes, dance !) music I heard and saw in performance in India
(not the North, the middle), what's it called, "Tratak" (Kirtak ?)? You
know, what the girls do, wearing pants under their dress ? With the heels
and the toes, a bit like chacarera male steps ? Man, this is can of worms...
Astrid, making wild, excited guesses
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:22:53 -0600
From: Joe Grohens <joe@WOLFRAM.COM>
Subject: Re: Astor Piazzolla on being "Oriental"...
Rajan:
> I am with Jean-Pierre on this. But, 'gypsy stuff' comes from northern
> india as was discussed on this list before.
Astrid:
> Hey, you guys may be right. I have always wondered where the rhythm of
> Libertango comes from. Listening to it now, it faintly reminds me of that
> Indian dance (yes, dance !) music I heard and saw in performance in India
> (not the North, the middle), what's it called, "Tratak" (Kirtak ?)? You
> know, what the girls do, wearing pants under their dress ? With the heels
> and the toes, a bit like chacarera male steps ? Man, this is can of worms...
> Astrid, making wild, excited guesses
I wish I knew more ethnomusicology to think seriously about comparisons like this.
I can offer one factoid, from Piazzolla's autobiography "A Manera de Memorias" (Natalio Gorin, ed., 1990, Editorial Atlantida).
pp 21-22:
Piazzolla talks about growing up around the late 1920s in Greenwich Village , a neighborhood populated by Italian, Irish and Jewish immigrants. Next to his house was a synagogue.
"Todo se va metiendo bajo la piel. Mis acentuaciones ritmicas, tres mas tres mas dos, son similares a las de la musica popular judia que yo escuchaba en los casamientos."
[Everything is put under the skin. My rhythmic accentuations, three plus three plus two, are similar to those of the Jewish popular music that I listened to in the marriages.]
Libertango is based on such a 3 + 3 + 2 rhythm.
As for what he meant by "Oriental" music and sensibility -- maybe he was referring to Uruguay? <joke>
Joe
