5663 Aus International TangoFest
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:52:29 +1000
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:24:01 +1000
> From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody?
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> I just did most of his workshops at the Sydney TangoFest, and have to
> agree wholeheartedly. Joaquin's system for explaining tango rhythms is
> absolutely excellent.
Thanks Myk. Last night I talked to a guy from Melbourne who attended the
festival. He said that there was one Argentinean teacher couple there who
were so average not only as teachers but as performers too, that he changed
classes. I guess this was reflected in the comment in the latest Canberra
tango newsletter? Seems you got a gem with Joaquin.
The Melbourne guy said besides the hiccup, the event was better organized
this year than last. That is good to hear.
Vince
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:54:07 +1000
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Vince Bagusauskas wrote:
> Last night I talked to a guy from Melbourne who attended the
> festival. He said that there was one Argentinean teacher couple there who
> were so average not only as teachers but as performers too, that he changed
> classes.
Yes, I was booked for three workshops with that couple, but only went to
two in the end. I really didn't need the mental aggravation another hour
and a half of their posturing and failure to actually teach would have
left me with.
> I guess this was reflected in the comment in the latest Canberra
> tango newsletter? Seems you got a gem with Joaquin.
Yes. "Mixed responses" would be a diplomatic way of putting it. I
certainly fall in the category of "outraged that I contributed to paying
for their airfare." I did manage to learn a couple of things from their
workshops, but it was in spite of their "teaching", not because of it.
Just goes to prove that winning championships doesn't mean you can
teach. I won't make a comment about their performances, because
performances don't really interest me. I much prefer dancing to watching
someone else doing a partially or fully rehearsed dance sequence. I
didn't even bother watching the performances on Friday night. Just got
out my phone and read for a bit.
Myk,
in Canberra
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:07:08 +1000
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] [Fwd: Re: Aus International TangoFest]
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Apologies for the following paragraph from my previous message to the
list. I was mixing up the biographies of the two couples teaching at the
Aus International Tango Fest.
> Just goes to prove that winning championships doesn't mean you can
> teach.
In fact, I had no classes with the championship-winning couple, but I
hear they were excellent.
Myk,
in Canberra
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:58:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest
To: tango-l@mit.edu
> From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
>
> Yes, I was booked for three workshops with that couple, but only went to
> two in the end. I really didn't need the mental aggravation another hour
> and a half of their posturing and failure to actually teach would have
> left me with.
>
Why no names? I understand it's acceptable on Tango-L to critique
Tango instructors, good or bad.
Jack
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:54:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest
--- On Fri, 6/12/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Why no names? I understand it's acceptable on Tango-L to
> critique
> Tango instructors, good or bad.
>
> Jack
Politeness, willing to give teachers the benefit of a doubt. For those curious, there's google.
In a forum like this, however, it pays to be careful of criticizing teaching couples because it might be unfair. Perhaps they were having a bad day. Perhaps someone wasn't feeling that well and it took a lot for them just to get out of bed. Perhaps they got bad news that morning and their head wasn't in the right place. Perhaps the problem was the student and not the teacher.
I know of one couple whose first try at teaching in the States did not go well at all. However, they were open to criticism, improved during the weekend, and I've invited them to teach here multiple times. Public criticism of their initial workshops would have been unfair, don't you think?
When one offers criticism, though, it should be constructive. Just saying "they suck" isn't going to tell anyone anything useful. Was it the lack of details, inability to control the class, indifference to students, imbalance of teaching patterns versus technique? If the person was standing right in front of you, what would you say to help that person improve? Wouldn't you want that person to become a better teacher?
Also, the fault lies a lot with the organizer(s), too. As an organizer myself, I make sure visiting teachers are given the info they need to shine and to make a good match between the teachers and the intended audience. I've seen what happens with organizers who just let the teacher do his/her own thing. I mean, what if you knew a new event was being organized by Tom Stermitz or Clay Nelson? You know what you can expect.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:33:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - clarification
--- On Fri, 6/12/09, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>I mean,
> what if you knew a new event was being organized by Tom
> Stermitz or Clay Nelson????You know what you
> can expect.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
I should clarify for those not living in the US that Tom and Clay run the Denver and Portland tangofests, respectively, and are highly regarded tango organizers.
Trini
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:42:12 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - negative feedback
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
My personal preference is that names should be used. Criticism, whether valid or not, is important market information, and it's one of the only ways tango consumers can evaluate potential teachers. In this forum it often happens that when one list member posts a negative review, other members who have had positive experiences will post with their counter examples. In this way readers of the list get all sides of the story and can make up their own minds as to who's biased, who had a bad experience because of other factors, etc. This is what being an informed consumer is all about, and the internet lists like this one are a perfect way to facilitate that. To filter posts to be "fair" or PC pollutes the process IMO and denies a voice to those who had a genuine bad experience, and in the process it withholds information that might be completely valid in helping other members make informed decisions.
No one has ever suggested withholding names when someone has positive feedback. If you withhold names when you have a negative comment, the result is the list becomes just another biased collection of marketing hype.
I don't want the government or business establishments or members of this list to manipulate information. I want to make my own decisions and judgments about the validity of any given piece of data. But if the information is withheld, I can't do that. The promise of the internet is that it flattens the field and has the potential to so widely distribute information that everyone can make more informed choices. There are undoubtedly messy problems at times, but if the doors are open, sooner or later the Truth will out. Filtering or withholding information only clouds the issues and corrupts the process.
J
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you.
https://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:07:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest
> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Politeness, willing to give teachers the benefit of a doubt.? For those curious,
> there's google.
>
> In a forum like this, however, it pays to be careful of criticizing teaching
> couples because it might be unfair.? Perhaps they were having a bad day.?
>
Trini,
I'd agree when it comes to local teachers; maybe they're doing it because
there's nobody else available and they're trying to build a Tango community
from scratch. But when it comes to visiting teachers and the organisers have
to pay air fares, accommodation, etc.,?it can be a big investment and I think
they're entitled to expect a certain standard. Also, how can organisers choose
potential visiting teachers if no information is available. Yes, you can see them
dance on YouTube but that says nothing about how they teach.
?
Just my opinion.?
Jack
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - negative feedback
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
--- On Fri, 6/12/09, Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:
> No one has ever suggested withholding names when someone
> has positive feedback. If you withhold names when you have a
> negative comment, the result is the list becomes just
> another biased collection of marketing hype.
I agree with many of your points, but with the internet it's also easy enough for people to figure the names out. Enough info was given. If posters are reluctant to name names, I don't have a problem with that. The festival just happened, so it can be a little uncomfortable to be specific. A little too close. Perhaps more time is needed to digest the events of the festival and put things in perspective. A reconciliation between expectations and reality. I think that's okay.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:17:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - organizing
--- On Fri, 6/12/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
> Trini,
>
> I'd agree when it comes to local teachers; maybe they're
> doing it because there's nobody else available and they're trying to build a Tango community from scratch. But when it comes to visiting teachers and the organisers have to pay air fares, accommodation, etc.,?it can be a big investment and I think they're entitled to expect a certain standard. Also, how can organisers choose potential visiting teachers if no information is available.
> Jack
This will be my last post for the day. If an organizer is doing his job (which is part of what workshops attendees pay for), then he can get the information. It's networking, talking with others, doing internet searches for interviews/email posting/past workshops, talking with the teachers. Trust me, the information is out there. Organizers and teachers are partners in these ventures and should work as such. Organizer can't merely expect a certain standard. They make it happen.
Yes, it is a big investment for both the organizer and the attendees. It needs to be treated as such. During the event, I always get feedback after the first workshops and relay it to teachers, both the good and bad. I have to say that every single teacher that I've had to correct has responded well and performed better in subsequent workshops. It's not easy for teachers to come into a different community and immediately assess what a bunch of strangers need or want or how they learn. They need help and that's the organizer's job.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:21:38 -0700
From: Brick Robbins <brick@fastpack.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ca2c2380906121021n68cb7dfcw346680607ebe9398@mail.gmail.com>
Myk, in Canberra wrote:
> In fact, I had no classes with the championship-winning couple, but I
> hear they were excellent.
Jay Rabe wrote:
> My personal preference is that names should be used.
Jack Dylan wrote
> Also, how can organisers choose potential visiting teachers if no information is available.
And google showed the Aus International Tango festival had 2
Argentine Couples Teaching https://www.tangofest.com.au/Teachers.html
"Geraldin Rojas and Ezequiel Paludi" are the teachers that were not champions.
Gee....That was hard.
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:22:46 -0400
From: David <dchester@charter.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - negative feedback
To: tango-l@mit.edu
> From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
> I know of one couple whose first try at teaching in the States did not go well
> at all. However, they were open to criticism, improved during the weekend, and
> I've invited them to teach here multiple times. Public criticism of their
> initial workshops would have been unfair, don't you think?
No, I don't think that honest public criticism is unfair. I think that wasting time and money on a bad class is unfair, though.
> When one offers criticism, though, it should be constructive. Just saying "they
> suck" isn't going to tell anyone anything useful. Was it the lack of details,
> inability to control the class, indifference to students, imbalance of teaching
> patterns versus technique? If the person was standing right in front of you,
> what would you say to help that person improve? Wouldn't you want that person
> to become a better teacher?
On this point we agree. And to go a step further, when criticising you can also point out what was good about the teachers or the class. That way the reader will get a more balanced perspective. FWIW, most of my classes/workshops have been either good or very good.
Regards,
David
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:21:04 +1000
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - clarification
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Jay and Jack,
I was not there this year so I can not comment. Brick has Googled the
information on who the teachers were at this years festival. Still, all
fairness to Trini, they may have had *a* bad day, but several reports from
participants over the 4 day festival should not be ignored.
Negative feed back to the organisers last year, especially about Los
Hermanos Macana who wanted to have a good old time, turn up late to a class
hung-over, play the piano during class and forget about teaching tango, was
given at the time by many. It hopefully was acted upon, by them never
having them invited again, but the complaints at the time for refund of the
money spent on a wasted class was never acknowledged. It left a sour taste
in at least 3 international attendees who said they would never return to
the festival. It must be difficult to be an organiser at times and satisfy
everyone.
Cheers
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:28:12 +1000
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Aus International TangoFest - clarification
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
reply-type=response
Oh BTW,
The couple named the weekend before taught at the New Zealand Tango Festival
https://www.nztangofestival.co.nz/teachers.html
Maybe they were just tired?
Be interesting to get a different perspective from NZ
Cheers
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 9:21 AM
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - clarification
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:30:40 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ecf43f370906121630k5911672agc42a697ddb3296f7@mail.gmail.com>
On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Brick Robbins<brick@fastpack.com> wrote:
> Myk, ?in Canberra wrote:
>> In fact, I had no classes with the championship-winning couple, but I
>> hear they were excellent.
>
> Jay Rabe wrote:
>> My personal preference is that names should be used.
>
> Jack Dylan wrote
>> ?Also, how can organisers choose potential visiting teachers if no information is available.
>
> And google showed the Aus International Tango festival had ?2
> Argentine Couples Teaching https://www.tangofest.com.au/Teachers.html
>
> "Geraldin Rojas and Ezequiel Paludi" are the teachers that were not champions.
>
> Gee....That was hard.
The trouble is, someone says he got the bios mixed up, someone
else uses the word "gem" and I cannot tell if he's using the word
straight or with sarcasm, so now I am totally confused, and will just
assume both couples suck. So the good couple has been done a
disservice.
I think I would have preferred naming names to avoid any
confusion. All the dropping of "hints" to avoid that is just a copout
anyway, because ostensibly the hints are supposed to lead the reader
to identification of whom is being talked about. I mean, it's like,
"I don't want to mention any names because I am far too nice to
criticize someone publicly, but here is enough data to reveal who it
is anyway." Seems kind of hypocritical.
So maybe it's better to say nothing at all or else come clean
with everything, I don't know.
Huck
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:05:06 +0930
From: "Pat Petronio" <petronio@adam.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Allow me to say that Cristina Sosa and Daniel Nacucchio, winners of World
Tango Championship (Tango Salon), Metropolitan Tango Championship (Tango
Salon), Metropolitan Tango Championship (Milonga) and the Japan Open (Tango
Salon) in 2008, were outstanding teachers and performers at the recent
festival.
As teachers, their lessons were well prepared & appropriate to the level of
workshop participants. Their workshops focussed on dancing that is
appropriate for the milonga, including musicality and codes of the
milonga.They communicated effectively, using humour appropriately, and they
were warm and very generous with their attention to participants, constantly
moving around and helping people, despite the popularity of their classes.
I should add that this view was shared by everyone I spoke to at the event.
To top it off, they're really nice people!
Here's a video of one of their winning performances
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrFwhYwIQ08&eurl=https://blog.t4ngo.com/">.t4ngo.com/">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrFwhYwIQ08&eurl=https://blog.t4ngo.com/
The festival organiser, Lilian Jimenez, is to be congratulated for bringing
them to Australia.
Patricia Petronio
Tango Sal?n Adelaide
www.tangosalonadelaide.blogspot.com
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:31:25 +1000
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest
To: Pat Petronio <petronio@adam.com.au>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cb8208d0906121831p6495382bv14ec8ca494b0f503@mail.gmail.com>
I agree with Pat completely on the perspectives of the participants...
THEY all loved Daniel and Cristina... Apart from 1 person that I
spoke to - NOONE enjoyed the classes by Geraldine and Ezequiel. They
were rude, arrogant and dismissive. Attacking individuals (more
Ezequiel) and highlighting what individuals did wrong and not
correcting them in the centre of the class.... This was also the exact
same feedback that was received from all the Aussies that went to NZ
to have classes with them there. Sad, but true. I personally had
high expectations, they were completely shattered.
ON the other hand, if you wish to learn about Stage Craft,
Choreography, then Mario Morales was brilliant. There was a little
too much 'us' time and I would have preferred more theory and examples
of theory - maybe video, but it was brilliant. He coached the 2008
Stage winners and also 2 other couples in the top 20 of the Stage
final (escenario). That in itself is a great achievement not to
mention the countless professional shows that he has done.
Damian
2009/6/13 Pat Petronio <petronio@adam.com.au>:
> Allow me to say that Cristina Sosa and Daniel Nacucchio, winners of World
> Tango Championship (Tango Salon), Metropolitan Tango Championship (Tango
> Salon), Metropolitan Tango Championship (Milonga) and the Japan Open (Tango
> Salon) in 2008, were outstanding teachers and performers at the recent
> festival.
>
> As teachers, their lessons were well prepared & appropriate to the level of
> workshop participants. Their workshops focussed on dancing that is
> appropriate for the milonga, including musicality and codes of the
> milonga.They communicated effectively, using humour appropriately, and they
> were warm and very generous with their attention to participants, constantly
> moving around and helping people, despite the popularity of their classes.
>
> I should add that this view was shared by everyone I spoke to at the event.
> To top it off, they're really nice people!
>
> Here's a video of one of their winning performances
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrFwhYwIQ08&eurl=https://blog.t4ngo.com/">og.t4ngo.com/">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrFwhYwIQ08&eurl=https://blog.t4ngo.com/
>
> The festival organiser, Lilian Jimenez, is to be congratulated for bringing
> them to Australia.
>
> Patricia Petronio
> Tango Sal?n Adelaide
> www.tangosalonadelaide.blogspot.com
>
>
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:14:49 -0400
From: Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator <tango-L-owner@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest
To: Tango-L@MIT.EDU
For the record, negative reviews (including naming of the persons or
events in question) are explicitly permitted on Tango-L, subject to
requirements to prevent abuse (which requirements seem to have been
followed in this case).
See this rule at
https://tango-l.com/tango-L-rules.htm#RELEVANCE-NegativeReviews
A paraphrased excerpt is:
Negative reviews of a particular teacher or event are permitted as a
potential service to the Tango community, even if individuals are named.
However, to prevent abuse of this exception as a way for people to
campaign negatively against people they don't like, or their
competitors, these reviews must meet ALL the following criteria:
- Name and tango community of poster must be identified to prevent
anonymous postings (e.g., someone hiding behind a pseudonym);
- Must have had direct and personal experience with the teacher/event in
question (i.e., not hearsay or second-hand opinions);
- Specific and objective details should be included (just saying
"terrible teachers," for example, is not enough).
When these are followed, as was the case here, it is indeed a service to
the community. This does not preclude others from putting forth
counter-examples or differences of opinions, nor does it *require* that
the persons in question be named if the poster wishes to avoid doing so
out of a sense of delicacy (though it does permit naming as well).
Tango-L and Tango-A administrator
tango-l-owner@mit.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:03:02 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@lowry.com.au>
Subject: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest
To: tango-L@mit.edu
We travelled to this festival for the first time. We found it to be
well organised and supported by all the major Tango teachers and
organisers in Sydney. The workshop venue (NIDA) was excellent for the
purpose. The milongas varied between restaurant and ballroom, a
pleasant mix of venues, formality and music, thanks to the guest
Dj's. To be expected with a wide range and quality of dancers from
near and far, the crowded milongas were a little bumpy, but I can hold
my ground as well as any Argentine :). Joaquin Amenabar's workshops
were exceptional. Highly recommended to anyone who is interested in
dancing to the music (as opposed to max'ing speed / figures). No
experience of the visiting dance teachers, since our dance style is
"milonguero" and, as with most festivals, this style of dance is not
catered for. On balance, an enjoyable week-end of Tango. Oh, and the
service in shops and restaurants was friendly and helpful - no
exceptions. Good quality meals are inexpensive. Thanks Sydney. See
you next year.
John
