2784 Back problem
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:00:29 -0700
From: Virginia Lam <lamvirginia@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Back problem
Hello,
I have started out tango a month ago and been getting comments such as "you've got a stiff back", "try to relax", etc.
Whenever I tried to relax a little, I feel that I'm almost slouching. I thought I was supposed to stand straight when I dance...
So a few questions:
1. How should I improve the "stiff back" problem?
2. Is a "stiff back" an obstacle to making progress (I feel I'm not making any progress at all which frustrates me)?
3. Is there any exercise that I can do to help?
Thanks! All inputs are welcome!
Virginia
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:49:52 -0400
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Back problem
Hello Virginia:
I understand your confusion. I suggest an alternative. Stand up, relaxed
(muscles NOT stiff) and slightly pull you hips back. You will feel your
weight shift from your heels to the balls of your feet. Keeping your
weight forward will help you move easier and to feel the lead (as long as
the lead is truly a lead and NOT a shove of the arms.)
I'm repeating what I wrote to Susan in earlier message about feeling a
man's intention:
"Here is an exercise that will give you a better idea of what I'm
describing. Assuming you go food shopping, imagine you are the leader
when you push your shopping cart. How do you get the cart to move? Do you
push it with your arms? If you do, your arms will hurt after a while. If
you compress your knees and lean slightly forward onto the balls of your
feet, the cart will move WITHOUT YOU TAKING A STEP. It's the same way in
tango. The man signals his intention by moving his weight forward,
sideways, or backwards and the woman steps. The man steps AFTER the
woman. The man's right arm, wrapped around the woman's lower back, can
feel how far she is stepping and the leader should match the size of her
step."
Do you dance ballroom? People who dance ballroom tend to have problems
with AT because the posture is the opposite ("Y" frame vs "A" frame).
Also, a lot of teachers talk about resistance. Your stiff back might come
from a teacher who spoke about resistance. There should be NO resistance.
The energy between partners should flow like water down a waterfall or
electricity through a wire (with minimum impedance.) Your muscles should
be toned, not flexed.
Since I don't know you, I don't know if the stiffness comes from stress
from your life or poor instruction. I was stiff when I started ballroom.
I went for weekly yoga sessions. The yoga therapist squeezed tension out
of me like toothpaste out of the tube. I couldn't believe how much there
was!! After yoga, I went to an Alexander technique practitioner for six
months. Alexander technique is learning how to keep the head over the
spine, not in front or behind the shoulders.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Enjoying life more with less tension
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:00:29 -0700 Virginia Lam <lamvirginia@YAHOO.COM>
writes:
> Hello,
> >
> So a few questions:
> 1. How should I improve the "stiff back" problem?
> 2. Is a "stiff back" an obstacle to making progress (I feel I'm not >
making any progress at all which frustrates me)?
> 3. Is there any exercise that I can do to help?
> Virginia
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:25:20 -0700
From: Virginia Lam <lamvirginia@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Back problem
Hello Michael:
Thank you for your prompt reply. The detailed tips you have given are indeed useful. I believe my "stiff back" is partly inborn and also the result of stress and long working hours.
I understand what you mean by "weight shift from heels to the balls of feet". A question comes to mind: Shuld one dance with heels off the floor? I've seen some dancers dancing with tippy toes.
I don't dance ballroom but got what you mean by A vs Y frame. Yes, I'm told if I don't give a little resistance, I wouldn't be able to feel the lead. So no resistance from the back. How about my right arm (the one holding my partner's)?
What do you mean by "keep the head over the spine, not in front or behind the shoulders."
Thanks.
:) Virginia
Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM> wrote:
Hello Virginia:
I understand your confusion. I suggest an alternative. Stand up, relaxed
(muscles NOT stiff) and slightly pull you hips back. You will feel your
weight shift from your heels to the balls of your feet. Keeping your
weight forward will help you move easier and to feel the lead (as long as
the lead is truly a lead and NOT a shove of the arms.)
I'm repeating what I wrote to Susan in earlier message about feeling a
man's intention:
"Here is an exercise that will give you a better idea of what I'm
describing. Assuming you go food shopping, imagine you are the leader
when you push your shopping cart. How do you get the cart to move? Do you
push it with your arms? If you do, your arms will hurt after a while. If
you compress your knees and lean slightly forward onto the balls of your
feet, the cart will move WITHOUT YOU TAKING A STEP. It's the same way in
tango. The man signals his intention by moving his weight forward,
sideways, or backwards and the woman steps. The man steps AFTER the
woman. The man's right arm, wrapped around the woman's lower back, can
feel how far she is stepping and the leader should match the size of her
step."
Do you dance ballroom? People who dance ballroom tend to have problems
with AT because the posture is the opposite ("Y" frame vs "A" frame).
Also, a lot of teachers talk about resistance. Your stiff back might come
from a teacher who spoke about resistance. There should be NO resistance.
The energy between partners should flow like water down a waterfall or
electricity through a wire (with minimum impedance.) Your muscles should
be toned, not flexed.
Since I don't know you, I don't know if the stiffness comes from stress
from your life or poor instruction. I was stiff when I started ballroom.
I went for weekly yoga sessions. The yoga therapist squeezed tension out
of me like toothpaste out of the tube. I couldn't believe how much there
was!! After yoga, I went to an Alexander technique practitioner for six
months. Alexander technique is learning how to keep the head over the
spine, not in front or behind the shoulders.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Enjoying life more with less tension
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:00:29 -0700 Virginia Lam
writes:
> Hello,
> >
> So a few questions:
> 1. How should I improve the "stiff back" problem?
> 2. Is a "stiff back" an obstacle to making progress (I feel I'm not >
making any progress at all which frustrates me)?
> 3. Is there any exercise that I can do to help?
> Virginia
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:47:09 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Back problem
On Sep 15, 2004, at 11:25 PM, Virginia Lam wrote:
> ...I understand what you mean by "weight shift from heels to the balls
> of feet". A question comes to mind: Shuld one dance with heels off the
> floor? I've seen some dancers dancing with tippy toes.
>
You didn't say whether you are learning stage tango or social tango.
Stage technique is very different from social.
If you have 10 years of ballet training, then you can be successful
dancing tango on tippy toes. Many of the show dancers teaching tango
have ballet or modern training. Some women see these highly-trained
dancers and try to imitate it.
Without such training, then going up on your toes causes a couple of
problems:
(1) Tension running up the back of your legs to the small of your back.
(2) Bent knees, which bump your leader's knees.
(3) You'll look like you are squatting as you walk backwards.
In tango your weight should be on the ball of the foot, with heels
pointing down to straighten the leg. This is enabled by stretching the
lower tummy of the floating leg. It is also enabled with a light
softening in the supporting hip.
With supporting hip relaxed, floating tummy stretched and heels down
you will find a much, much more relaxed and flowing tango. Your spirals
will flow from shoulder to opposite heel.
The other thing that frequently causes problems is when teachers tell
beginners to take BIG steps. This leads to arched back or tilting your
axis. Your steps should be moderate: stretched, but not big.
The SOCIAL tango walk is relaxed and balanced. This is not hard to
achieve, unless you strain to imitate difficult postures and steps.
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:00:09 -0400
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Back problem
Virginia:
I don't dance in heels so I'm probably not the best person to answer. I
will say it's not advisable to put weight on the heels or you can't keep
your weight forward. If you can't keep your weight forward, your weight
is back and you're primed to only go backward, not sideways nor forward.
Dancing on tippy toes isn't good because of the tremendous weight the
toes have to absorb. The balls of the foot (with the foot turned outward,
not inward or "pigeon toed") will give you support (sometimes called
"grounding") to maintain your balance. I usually have difficulty dancing
with a former ballet student. When she is up on her toes, it's difficult
for me to feel which foot she is standing.
There should be NO resistance in your right arm that holds the man's left
arm. I danced with a beginner last Sunday who stretched her right arm out
as far as she could with her palm out. It looked like she was signalling
for a left turn. She was destroying our alignment. Think of a door hinge.
The door and the wall both have a hinge with a pin holding the hinges
together. There is an imaginary pin between the two partners. I'm not a
doctor (even though my initials are "MD") but if you feel for your
sternum in the middle of your chest, you'll feel a depression or
indentation. Your indentation should line up with the man's indentation.
When a woman pushes with her right arm, she is throwing me off the
alignment, bending the pin that is supposed to keep our indentations
lined up. There is a symmetry of the dance. Unless the partners are in
alignment, one half of the body will lead (or follow) better than the
other half. It's like the alignment on a car. If the wheels aren't
pointed straight when the wheel is straight, the tires will wear out
quickly.
A danger with a woman's stiff right arm if she is pushing towards the
man, it forces the man to hold his left arm in an uncomfortably position
because it is behind his shoulder.
As for keeping the head over the spine. HMMM. Take a pencil with an
eraser. Take a paper clip. Lay the paper clip flat on top of the eraser.
If it's balanced, half the paper clip is one and the other half is on the
other side of the eraser, perfectly balanced. If 3/4 of the clip is to
one side, it's likely the clip will fall off the eraser because it's NOT
balanced. The head is the paper clip and the shoulders are the eraser. If
the head leans too far forward, it will prevent the body from being
straight and will pull the body forward. If the head leans too far
backward, you can't bring your weight onto the balls of the feet because
the head's weight is forcing the body onto the heels. The head has to be
balanced on top of the shoulders.
An alternative example is riding a bicycle. If you lean to one direction,
the bicycle falls over. If you lean too far backwards, the front wheel
comes off the ground. If you lean too far forward, it's difficult to
steer. Your body has to be aligned with the bicycle to hold your balance
and maneuver.
Go to a shopping mall and watch how people walk. Some will slouch. Watch
where their heads are. Some will be ahead or behind their shoulders.
Let me know if I've confused you.
Abrazos,
Michael
Looking forward to dancing tango since I didn't on my cruise through the
Panama Canal. Couldn't wait to get off the ship.
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:25:20 -0700 Virginia Lam <lamvirginia@YAHOO.COM>
writes:
> Hello Michael:
>
> Thank you for your prompt reply. The detailed tips you have given > are
indeed useful. I believe my "stiff back" is partly inborn and > also the
result of stress and long working hours.
>
> I understand what you mean by "weight shift from heels to the balls >
of feet". A question comes to mind: Shuld one dance with heels off > the
floor? I've seen some dancers dancing with tippy toes.
>
> I don't dance ballroom but got what you mean by A vs Y frame. Yes, >
I'm told if I don't give a little resistance, I wouldn't be able to >
feel the lead. So no resistance from the back. How about my right > arm
(the one holding my partner's)?
>
> What do you mean by "keep the head over the spine, not in front or >
behind the shoulders."
>
> Thanks.
>
> :) Virginia
>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:07:57 -0500
From: Leonard Kunkel <image10@SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Back problem
When I started dancing tango 10 years ago, I was having lower back pain.
I was not in good shape. So I started running and lifting weights. Now I
continue to run or bike regularly and alternate with barbell exercises
on different days.
After a few weeks of this schedule of building up my back muscles I had
no pain any longer.
What gave me the incentive to do this was I had torn an ACL and interior
ligament in a snow skiing accident. My doctor who was conservative about
operations told me at my age the best would be to build up my leg
muscles. The muscles would compensate for the torn ACL and hold my knee
in place.
He said an operation would cause a long time in rehab and then the knee
would have to be scraped maybe every 5 years.
Taking his advice has worked for me. I can dance tango for 4 hours and
the only problem I ever have is when the muscles get tired and on
occasion then the knee wants to try to pop out.
Overworked muscles hurt and may be the source of your pain so building
them up will only help.
Blessings,
Leonardo K.
