1693 Back step
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:48:01 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Back step
"Laurie Moseley (at home)" <LGMoseley@AOL.COM> wrote:
"I m baffled as to why the dreaded back step is so dreaded and vilified."
As Laurie say, the back step is dreaded by those who made it without looking if there is someone behind . And is vilified by ...... some remaining attitude of the first lessons, where to go backwards was considered almost outrageous .
I think in one word : Pivot .
Pivot,. pivot , pivot. At tango lessons, it would be interesting to have a trained pirate parrot to avoid the teachers to repeat endessly : " take care of your pivot ,bucnh of mutinees !!! You will be hanged at the gallows !!! " ( sorry , I have just come from seeing " The curse of the black pearl " :)):)
The pattern of 8 steps as it is taught on the tango lessons is an attempt of the teachers to :
1) produce a sequence for the student to start doing something, into the space of dance .For the student , the dancing area is an enigma , there is no plan of navigation, even he/she has the slightest idea of what he/she will do around that area . The idea of "walking with the music" is not so widely used on other dances . Maybe european waltz or polka. But other dances as salsa , rock ,latin, usually have dancers standing in an area for their figures
2) to learn to pivot , and to apply the pivot to the 8 steps sequence , could make a student to feel that he/she is really doing it . It is not more a mechanical walking. The combined pivot requires an alignment of the couple , a waiting of one each other, and a change of front, which is really a couple work . As simple as it sounds, is extremely difficult to achieve ,without losing posture and embrace.
3) Once the 8 steps sequence is taught, usually the almost inmediate teaching is not to stand on the step number 8 , but to make an "8 continuado", to continue the line of dance . Once again, pivot . To make that "backward" step a forward step on the line of dance.
Pivot, pivot., pivot . Your knees will be grateful for your pivot, otherwise they have to pay the price of the turn at the corners of the dancing area
Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
Usuario: yahoo; contraseqa: yahoo
Desde Buenos Aires: 4004-1010
Mas ciudades: clic aqum.
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:00:35 EDT
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Back step
I would rather just ignore the back step and teach the side step (step 2 of
the 8CB) as the salida. At the end of the 8CB I would teach the student to
change weight (step 1 of the 8CB) and restart with the side step. This way it
avoids all the collisions encountered with the backstep, but most important, it
avoid getting into the habit of not stepping back.
El Tango de Bandito
In a message dated 8/12/2003 06:49:28 Pacific Daylight Time, clambat2
001@YAHOO.COM.AR writes:
> Subj: [TANGO-L] Back step
> Date: 8/12/2003 06:49:28 Pacific Daylight Time
> From: <A HREF="mailto:clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR">clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR</A>
> To: <A HREF="mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU">TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU</A>
> Sent from the Internet
>
>
>
> "Laurie Moseley (at home)" <LGMoseley@AOL.COM> wrote:
> "I m baffled as to why the dreaded back step is so dreaded and vilified."
>
> As Laurie say, the back step is dreaded by those who made it without looking
> if there is someone behind . And is vilified by ...... some remaining
> attitude of the first lessons, where to go backwards was considered almost
> outrageous .
>
> I think in one word : Pivot .
>
> Pivot,. pivot , pivot. At tango lessons, it would be interesting to have a
> trained pirate parrot to avoid the teachers to repeat endessly : " take care
> of your pivot ,bucnh of mutinees !!! You will be hanged at the gallows !!! "
> ( sorry , I have just come from seeing " The curse of the black pearl " :)):)
>
> The pattern of 8 steps as it is taught on the tango lessons is an attempt of
> the teachers to :
>
> 1) produce a sequence for the student to start doing something, into the
> space of dance .For the student , the dancing area is an enigma , there is no
> plan of navigation, even he/she has the slightest idea of what he/she will do
> around that area . The idea of "walking with the music" is not so widely used
> on other dances . Maybe european waltz or polka. But other dances as salsa ,
> rock ,latin, usually have dancers standing in an area for their figures
>
> 2) to learn to pivot , and to apply the pivot to the 8 steps sequence ,
> could make a student to feel that he/she is really doing it . It is not more a
> mechanical walking. The combined pivot requires an alignment of the couple , a
> waiting of one each other, and a change of front, which is really a couple
> work . As simple as it sounds, is extremely difficult to achieve ,without
> losing posture and embrace.
>
> 3) Once the 8 steps sequence is taught, usually the almost inmediate
> teaching is not to stand on the step number 8 , but to make an "8 continuado", to
> continue the line of dance . Once again, pivot . To make that "backward" step a
> forward step on the line of dance.
>
>
> Pivot, pivot., pivot . Your knees will be grateful for your pivot, otherwise
> they have to pay the price of the turn at the corners of the dancing area
>
> Warm regards
> Alberto Gesualdi
> Buenos Aires
>
>
>
>
> Usuario: yahoo; contraseqa: yahoo
> Desde Buenos Aires: 4004-1010
> Mas ciudades: clic aqum.
>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:41:22 -0400
From: John Gleeson <jgleeson@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Back step
None of this makes any sense.
You can also bump into another dancer when you take a side-step
or even when you take a forward step. Of course, a leader can
see better looking forward or to the side than behind him/her, but
the art of floor navigation, which should be taught to all beginning
leaders at the same time as dance steps, is to be aware of his/her
surroundings AT ALL TIMES.
If we don't want leaders to take a back step, why not teach a 7CB
instead of the 8CB?
Why does Pepito Avellaneda use the 8CB for ALL of his basic
Milonga patterns? Is this just for beginning students only?
Why? It's just as easy to teach a 7CB as it is to teach an 8CB!
John G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Back step
> I would rather just ignore the back step and teach the side step (step 2 of
> the 8CB) as the salida. At the end of the 8CB I would teach the student to
> change weight (step 1 of the 8CB) and restart with the side step. This way it
> avoids all the collisions encountered with the backstep, but most important, it
> avoid getting into the habit of not stepping back.
>
> El Tango de Bandito
>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:06:11 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Back step
I always teach that a side step into the center of the floor should be the
first step of the dance. It works because even in close embrace there is
usually a slight offset of the bodies, because two heads can't fit into the
same space. So the leader and follower put their right cheeks together, and
the leader has clear visibility left-forward around the LOD. This also gives
him peripheral vision to his left side which makes the side step safe. After
that, turns and pivots allow the leader to keep an up-to-the-moment view of
movements of other dancers around him, and back steps then can be done with
(more) safety.
And yes, this means that the first iteration of the 8CB starts on count 2.
But that seems simpler than trying to change long-established convention.
J
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:39:15 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Back step
I prefer to start them straight and go to the outside
with the leader's right foot. It's slightly more
challenging, but I think it helps beginners with
transitions. Otherwise, one may get into the habit of
starting everything with a side step. Since I've
started that, my students haven't felt the need to
stop and restart, and they have much better
floorcraft.
One of my issues with the back step is that it becomes
a habit rather than an interpretation of the music.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> I always teach that a side step into the center of
> the floor should be the
> first step of the dance. It works because even in
> close embrace there is
> usually a slight offset of the bodies, because two
> heads can't fit into the
> same space. So the leader and follower put their
> right cheeks together, and
> the leader has clear visibility left-forward around
> the LOD. This also gives
> him peripheral vision to his left side which makes
> the side step safe. After
> that, turns and pivots allow the leader to keep an
> up-to-the-moment view of
> movements of other dancers around him, and back
> steps then can be done with
> (more) safety.
>
> And yes, this means that the first iteration of the
> 8CB starts on count 2.
> But that seems simpler than trying to change
> long-established convention.
>
> J
>
>
> FREE*
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:53:12 EDT
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Back step
Whatever! Just so long as the stupid back step is not taught so it becomes
ingrained into the structure of the dance.
El Tango de Bandito
In a message dated 8/12/2003 09:43:25 Pacific Daylight Time,
jgleeson@CONCENTRIC.NET writes:
> Subj: Re: [TANGO-L] Back step
> Date: 8/12/2003 09:43:25 Pacific Daylight Time
> From: <A HREF="mailto:jgleeson@CONCENTRIC.NET">jgleeson@CONCENTRIC.NET</A>
> To: <A HREF="mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU">TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU</A>
> Sent from the Internet
>
>
>
> None of this makes any sense.
>
> You can also bump into another dancer when you take a side-step
> or even when you take a forward step. Of course, a leader can
> see better looking forward or to the side than behind him/her, but
> the art of floor navigation, which should be taught to all beginning
> leaders at the same time as dance steps, is to be aware of his/her
> surroundings AT ALL TIMES.
>
> If we don't want leaders to take a back step, why not teach a 7CB
> instead of the 8CB?
>
> Why does Pepito Avellaneda use the 8CB for ALL of his basic
> Milonga patterns? Is this just for beginning students only?
> Why? It's just as easy to teach a 7CB as it is to teach an 8CB!
>
> John G.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
> To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Back step
>
>
> >I would rather just ignore the back step and teach the side step (step 2 of
> >the 8CB) as the salida. At the end of the 8CB I would teach the student to
> >change weight (step 1 of the 8CB) and restart with the side step. This way
> it
> >avoids all the collisions encountered with the backstep, but most
> important, it
> >avoid getting into the habit of not stepping back.
> >
> >El Tango de Bandito
> >
>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:26:22 -0400
From: John Gleeson <jgleeson@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Back step
Way to go! Along with not ingraining stupid side steps and
stupid forward steps and stupid whatevers. . . .
:<) John G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Back step
> Whatever! Just so long as the stupid back step is not taught so it becomes
> ingrained into the structure of the dance.
>
> El Tango de Bandito
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 8/12/2003 09:43:25 Pacific Daylight Time,
> jgleeson@CONCENTRIC.NET writes:
>
> > Subj: Re: [TANGO-L] Back step
> > Date: 8/12/2003 09:43:25 Pacific Daylight Time
> > From: <A HREF="mailto:jgleeson@CONCENTRIC.NET">jgleeson@CONCENTRIC.NET</A>
> > To: <A HREF="mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU">TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU</A>
> > Sent from the Internet
> >
> >
> >
> > None of this makes any sense.
> >
> > You can also bump into another dancer when you take a side-step
> > or even when you take a forward step. Of course, a leader can
> > see better looking forward or to the side than behind him/her, but
> > the art of floor navigation, which should be taught to all beginning
> > leaders at the same time as dance steps, is to be aware of his/her
> > surroundings AT ALL TIMES.
> >
> > If we don't want leaders to take a back step, why not teach a 7CB
> > instead of the 8CB?
> >
> > Why does Pepito Avellaneda use the 8CB for ALL of his basic
> > Milonga patterns? Is this just for beginning students only?
> > Why? It's just as easy to teach a 7CB as it is to teach an 8CB!
> >
> > John G.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
> > To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Back step
> >
> >
> > >I would rather just ignore the back step and teach the side step (step 2 of
> > >the 8CB) as the salida. At the end of the 8CB I would teach the student to
> > >change weight (step 1 of the 8CB) and restart with the side step. This way
> > it
> > >avoids all the collisions encountered with the backstep, but most
> > important, it
> > >avoid getting into the habit of not stepping back.
> > >
> > >El Tango de Bandito
> > >
> >
>
>
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 19:16:26 -0500
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: crossing, weight changes, back steps
Hello to all,
First, some thanks, and then some clarification;
Thanks to Dave (quite a compliment; see you in Denver very soon!)<<<<
PS: I've danced next to Gavito. It was quite safe. He's totally
respectful of the space. And inspirational to boot. I've danced next to
Michael too. Another great guy to have next in line.>>>>>>>>
And to Daniel and Laurie and Andreas and Carrie and Huck and Rose and
Elemer, and everyone else who responded, either on or off the list,
thanks for all your input! I'm glad to have generated some interesting
commentary.
About the cross; yes, of course, it should always be led, but even more,
the next weight change should be led. Sorry, followers, but many of you
cross and automatically change weight to your left, forcing the leader
to adjust. Please leave that left foot hanging there just outside your
right, until the leader indicates the next move. I sometimes like to
"unwind" my follower from the cross, and lead a boleo, or a back ocho,
leading her to step on her left, to which she never changed her weight.
And about the back step, which seems to be even more controversial; I
take back steps after I've done a turn, INTO the line of dance, not
against it. I don't know who's back there, and any "furtive" turn of my
head to find out, tends to ruin the tango experience. There are some
steps that appear to be back steps, but are only steps that are into
territory that the leader has not yet relinquished, such as a volcada
(Thanks for your comment Oleh,). If a leader has "collected", such as in
the dreaded "tango close", he has given up his rights to any space
behind him, and it is the duty of the next leader to fill that space
(thanks again, Huck!). But if he is leading ochos, and decides to turn
one into a volcada, that space is still his, just as he should always
have room to do a small turn. These are moves that remain continuous.
IT'S LIKE DRIVING! Much better to get in the habit of using your turn
signal, even when you know there's nobody within a mile. Make it a
habit; NO BACK STEPS INTO THE LINE OF DANCE. And I don't for a minute
believe that Gavito, or Daniel T, or any competent leader/teacher would
recommend or perform this on a social dance floor. 3 or 4 or even 5 back
steps, into the line of dance, on a social dance floor??? GET REAL!
Warm regards to all, see you in Denver May 28.
Michael from Houston
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 5:16 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L] crossing, weight changes, back steps
> Hello to all,
>
>
>
> First, some thanks, and then some clarification;
>
>
>
> Thanks to Dave (quite a compliment; see you in Denver very soon!)<<<<
> PS: I've danced next to Gavito. It was quite safe. He's totally
> respectful of the space. And inspirational to boot. I've danced next to
> Michael too. Another great guy to have next in line.>>>>>>>>
>
>
>
> And to Daniel and Laurie and Andreas and Carrie and Huck and Rose and
> Elemer, and everyone else who responded, either on or off the list,
> thanks for all your input! I'm glad to have generated some interesting
> commentary.
>
>
>
> About the cross; yes, of course, it should always be led, but even more,
> the next weight change should be led. Sorry, followers, but many of you
> cross and automatically change weight to your left, forcing the leader
> to adjust. Please leave that left foot hanging there just outside your
> right, until the leader indicates the next move. I sometimes like to
> "unwind" my follower from the cross, and lead a boleo, or a back ocho,
> leading her to step on her left, to which she never changed her weight.
>
>
>
> And about the back step, which seems to be even more controversial; I
> take back steps after I've done a turn, INTO the line of dance, not
> against it. I don't know who's back there, and any "furtive" turn of my
> head to find out, tends to ruin the tango experience. There are some
> steps that appear to be back steps, but are only steps that are into
> territory that the leader has not yet relinquished, such as a volcada
> (Thanks for your comment Oleh,). If a leader has "collected", such as in
> the dreaded "tango close", he has given up his rights to any space
> behind him, and it is the duty of the next leader to fill that space
> (thanks again, Huck!). But if he is leading ochos, and decides to turn
> one into a volcada, that space is still his, just as he should always
> have room to do a small turn. These are moves that remain continuous.
>
>
>
> IT'S LIKE DRIVING! Much better to get in the habit of using your turn
> signal, even when you know there's nobody within a mile. Make it a
> habit; NO BACK STEPS INTO THE LINE OF DANCE. And I don't for a minute
> believe that Gavito, or Daniel T, or any competent leader/teacher would
> recommend or perform this on a social dance floor. 3 or 4 or even 5 back
> steps, into the line of dance, on a social dance floor??? GET REAL!
>
>
>
> Warm regards to all, see you in Denver May 28.
>
>
>
> Michael from Houston
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 16:15:44 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango Back step
Dear Burleigh,
I can say by the nature of your questions that you know a great deal of how
to walk backwards in Tango Salon.
Talking about your students you say:
"They
have usually been told 3 different things by three different guys who have
no
idea, and now they want a forth opinion."
It is possible that the information came from people who have no idea as you
say, or from people that dance different tango styles. This is precisely
the type of confusion caused by ignoring that exist different tango styles
with different walking technique.
The correct technique (as taught by most Argentine Instructors) of Salon
Tango (IMO) is as follows:
Your chest stays forward (with your partner) as you extend the (Lt.) leg
backwards.
The Rt. leg remains in place and it is bent (the flexion of this leg
determines the length of the back step). The more you flex the standing leg
the bigger the back step.
For elegance and better equilibrium the left foot of the Lt. extended leg is
on a same line with the standing Rt. one. The Lt. leg has some degree of
rotation at this point so that the toes of the Lt. foot point to the left
and the heel to the right. The heel is not touching the floor yet.
The Lt. leg is now totally extended and you start moving your right one and
your body backwards so that you transfer your weight from the Rt. to the Lt.
leg.
Now you are standing on your Lt. leg. As the Rt. foot goes back the Rt. heel
caresses the Lf. one and proceeds in his movement back.
The Rt. leg is now extended, the Rt. foot has the proper rotation (toes
point right) the Lt. leg is flexed.
The traveling foot remains horizontal, the forefoot caresses the floor and
the heel is slightly separated from the floor as it brushes the planted
foot.
The back leg is extended and the heel off the floor. As I put the heel on
the floor I extend the traveling leg and slightly flex the planted one. As
the heels brush, both knees are slightly flexed. As the traveling leg
passes the standing one, this last one continues to flex and the other
extends.
The back step of the woman is executed exactly as described above, The
technique for tango walking back is specially important for the woman as she
is the one that normally steps back.
The length of the steps is determined by the speed of the music and the
dance and by the available room.
The faster the leader dances the smaller the steps. Lack of room will cause
you to dance with small steps.
This sequence is repeated for every step.
I hope that this answers most of your questions.
Best regards, Sergio
