1402  Ballrooom and Argentine tango III

Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:05:43 -0400
From: Sergio <Cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Ballrooom and Argentine tango III

Now we have arrived with the Argentine tango to Europe and North America at
the beginning of the XIX century.
What happened afterwards? To understand this better let's review what
*we*ourselves have witnessed.
**This review will serve two purposes.

We are in the mid 80s. the show "Tango Argentino" arrives in Broadway and in
Europe and brings Argentine tango to us.
We are excited to know that such a sensuous, unusual dance exists and many
of us would like to learn how to dance it.
This need is immediately detected by interested parties. Some instructors
arrive from Buenos Aires, some people travel to Argentina to take lessons.
There are several tango shows, movies, documentaries in TV, articles in
magazines and newspapers. Instructional Videos appear.

Some ballroom instructors that have never been to Argentina or even taken a
lesson from an authentic tango teacher look at a couple of videos (for they
are used to learn moves and steps from videos that they teach to their
students) assume that A.Tango is like all the other ballroom dances, they
already know the 'real' ballroom tango so they start teaching this new
variety. They make their own video tapes, which they sell fairly well .
They adopt music that they assume is danceable A.Tango even when it is not.
They organize exhibitions and competitions dressed like Gauchos a lo Rodolfo
Valentino. Some even create a curriculum with several levels, bronze,
silver and gold with several steps at each level, the same as it is done
with the other dances. I am sure most of you have encountered some of those
instructors and circumstances.

Now you have witnessed all that, you could assert that all that is true
because you have seen it. It is only natural that the personal experience
may have been somewhat different but essentially you have lived those
experiences. You have also heard and read about other peoples experiences in
that respect. Some of you were too young or not into tango in the mid
eighties but learnt from people that had indeed been there at the time. Now
you try to share your knowledge with others... if somebody that has never
been to North America or to Europe tells you that what you are saying is not
credible what would you tell such a person? I am curious to know. :)) I will
discuss this aspect in more detail later.

Let's return to the beginning of the century. Tango (the one and
only)arrived to Europe and to the USA. The aristocracy, the wealthy are
delighted to know that such a sensuous, most unusual dance exists and are
anxious to learnt it.

It would be logical to think that Argentineans for fun some like myself, and
for profit others started teaching the dance as it was danced by high
society in Buenos Aires. Some style like canyengue already devoid of
'indecent' characteristics, I will discuss later what those 'indecent'
characteristics were.

At the same time some local ballroom instructors see the need to teach it as
well. Some learn from observation, some take a few lessons from visiting
instructors. Not very many could afford to go to Argentina to learn. The
travel from North America or from Europe was long (more than 20 days by ship
and very expensive. So they start teaching their own version of the
Argentine tango.
We will see next what their version is and how they arrived to their style.

...I will see soon.

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:21:37 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango II
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Amaury asks ; (thank you Amaury for stimulating an interesting discussion):

"I do have a question to our group. Lets for a minute,
for the sake of
conversation, accept the argument supporting national
origin as a factor
influencing artistic performance. Would the same
apply to music playing and
composing?

If so, than Yo-Yo Ma is a hell of an Argentine.

Cheers,
Amaury "

It is precisely in the music where the Argentine character is expressed the
most.

It is obvious that one of the most important ancestors of tango is the
Milonga. The early tangos were very similar to the milonga. Even today some
of those primitive tangos such as "el Porteqito",
"El Esquinazo" or "El Entreriano" are frequently thought to be milongas
abroad.

La milonga was born in rural areas where the main entertainment of the
gauchos was to gather around a fire and play the guitar.

They had verbal competitions in which one of them would improvise lyrics,
usually in the form of a question, on a certain theme ( philosophical
subjects such as love, life, death, God, fate, etc) as he accompanied
himself with the guitar. Another cowboy would answer in verse as well.

This is still done in rural areas, mostly as part of the celebration of
national holidays, along with rodeos.

Blacks listening to this form of "rap" baptized this event with one word of
their African Language
"Milonga" meaning "palabrerio" too many words. This original meaning od
milonga is still used in slang, when somebody comes with a long complain he
is told "ok, do not came now with that milonga".

In time this guitar playing at the "Payadas" (this is the name of the verbal
verse competition), was followed by dancing to the guitar rhythm, (this
dancing, was also called milonga) and later on the place where the payada
and the dance took place was also called 'Milonga".

This is the reason we still go to the "Milonga" today.

Gauchos (cowboys) would bring cattle to the city of Buenos Aires and
Montevideo and camp in the outskirts where the slaughter houses where
placed. It was in this periphery of the city where the rural milonga
interacted with other rhythms brought by immigrants from Spain (Tanguillo,
something like Flamenco) or by sailors from the Caribbean (Habanera) and
music and dances played at the Candombes of African origin.

>>From the confluence of those rhythms it is thought that Argentine Tango was

born.

Other dances evolved in rural areas, dances that form part of the rich
Argentine Folkloric repertoire.

Some of those dances are becoming very popular abroad such as the "Chacarera
and even the Zamba".

This is getting to be too long so I will stop here for now.

Summary: The dance and the music both are strong reflection of the Argentine
Character.

Nobody says that you have to dance like an Argentine; although many of you
do it and learn to do it to perfection, others inject some of their own
culture and personality in their dancing, this is not wrong. You should be
able to dance the way you wish, the way you prefer to do it.

Tango has a strong, broad embrace that encompasses all of us.

Have a nice day, Sergio

https://newlivehotmail.com

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:12:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango II
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Sergio,

Thank you for the clear and objective explanation. If
I understand well we
can definitely say that Argentine was the birth place
of an art form that
combined features from multiple socio, economical and
cultural background.

So how do we come to terms with the argument that for
one to excel in an art
form one needs to be born in its place of origins?

I have read similar arguments (albeit in more virulent
forms) throughout
history. And honestly, the results of such
intellectual stance have
invariably led to ethnic intolerance, dissent,
discrimination and
prosecution.

These were my first words ever posted to the list. I
am more of a lurker
than a talker.

However this particular thread stroked a chord in me.
Perhaps because I
have spent so much of my time volunteering to help
others to take their
first Tango steps. Or just because I like to think
that as humans we have
in all of us the basic emotions and feelings that are
such fundamental part
of the dance.


Thank you for the opportunity to have my voice heard.

Thank you all,
Amaury



-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 11:22 AM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango II

Amaury asks ; (thank you Amaury for stimulating an
interesting discussion):

"I do have a question to our group. Lets for a
minute,
for the sake of
conversation, accept the argument supporting national
origin as a factor
influencing artistic performance. Would the same
apply to music playing and
composing?

If so, than Yo-Yo Ma is a hell of an Argentine.

Cheers,
Amaury "

It is precisely in the music where the Argentine
character is expressed the
most.

It is obvious that one of the most important ancestors
of tango is the
Milonga. The early tangos were very similar to the
milonga. Even today some
of those primitive tangos such as "el Porteqito",
"El Esquinazo" or "El Entreriano" are frequently
thought to be milongas
abroad.

La milonga was born in rural areas where the main
entertainment of the
gauchos was to gather around a fire and play the
guitar.

They had verbal competitions in which one of them
would improvise lyrics,
usually in the form of a question, on a certain theme
( philosophical
subjects such as love, life, death, God, fate, etc) as
he accompanied
himself with the guitar. Another cowboy would answer
in verse as well.

This is still done in rural areas, mostly as part of
the celebration of
national holidays, along with rodeos.

Blacks listening to this form of "rap" baptized this
event with one word of
their African Language
"Milonga" meaning "palabrerio" too many words. This
original meaning od
milonga is still used in slang, when somebody comes
with a long complain he

is told "ok, do not came now with that milonga".

In time this guitar playing at the "Payadas" (this is
the name of the verbal

verse competition), was followed by dancing to the
guitar rhythm, (this
dancing, was also called milonga) and later on the
place where the payada
and the dance took place was also called 'Milonga".

This is the reason we still go to the "Milonga"
today.

Gauchos (cowboys) would bring cattle to the city of
Buenos Aires and
Montevideo and camp in the outskirts where the
slaughter houses where
placed. It was in this periphery of the city where
the rural milonga
interacted with other rhythms brought by immigrants

>from Spain (Tanguillo,

something like Flamenco) or by sailors from the
Caribbean (Habanera) and
music and dances played at the Candombes of African
origin.

>>From the confluence of those rhythms it is thought

that Argentine Tango was

born.

Other dances evolved in rural areas, dances that form
part of the rich
Argentine Folkloric repertoire.

Some of those dances are becoming very popular abroad
such as the "Chacarera

and even the Zamba".

This is getting to be too long so I will stop here for
now.

Summary: The dance and the music both are strong
reflection of the Argentine

Character.

Nobody says that you have to dance like an Argentine;
although many of you
do it and learn to do it to perfection, others inject
some of their own
culture and personality in their dancing, this is not
wrong. You should be
able to dance the way you wish, the way you prefer to
do it.

Tango has a strong, broad embrace that encompasses all
of us.

Have a nice day, Sergio

https://newlivehotmail.com





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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:32:44 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango III
To: tango-l@mit.edu

What is known about tango history is due to several sources, in particular

>from the police records of Buenos aires and Montevideo dating from early

19th century when "Dances of Negroes" were regulated by the City Hall and
frequently raided by the police. There are records dating 1808 forbidding
Candombes and other dances of negroes.

The closeness of the dancers, the sensuality of its choreography says a lot
about its origin in brothels in the suburbs of Buenos Aires. At a time when
people did not dance in close embrace.
This is specially evident in the names and lyrics of the first tangos that
we know:

Afeitate el 7 que el 8 es fiesta (de Antonio Lagomarsino). Shave the 7
because the 8 is holiday.
(in slang "shave your ass because tomorrow is a holiday").

!Al palo! (de Eduardo Bolter Bulterini). +Estar al palo; significa
experimentar una ereccisn.

This is a reference to having an erection.

Most of the tangos of that time are a testimonial of its origin at the
brothels. The lyrics are very explicit as it was its choreography.

Dos sin sacarla. Two without taking it out, etc, etc, etc.

It was due to this that decent families looked down on tango.

Poor families, working class families, middle class families and high class
families ; all of them considered tango to be sinful and lewd. They were
right.

Who were the tango dancers? : outcasts and outlaws, unemployed men, pimps,
criminals, compadritos, bullies, drug users, women prostitutes from Spain,
France, Poland, France, etc.

Young men of high class started to patronize bars, gambling and dancing
halls in the outskirts, to have some unusual fun.

It was they that purified the choreography in order to secretly teach it to
their sisters and other female members of their family and later on it was
they that took the tango to Europe.

It was this purified form of tango that was introduced to the European
society who accepted and embraced it right away. The name of those young
men that traveled to Europe and taught tango are recorded in detail.

In the meantime in Buenos Aires "decent women" would not dance the tango in
public, so men had to practice by themselves. They practiced so that they
could impress the women at the dancing halls later in the evening.

Tango (purified) became "tango liso started to be played and danced in the
patios of the conventillos (boarding houses) and eventually in the home of
all the families , finally it had become an acceptable form of
entertainment.

Summary: It is generally accepted that it originated in brothels as
testified by its early choreography, lyrics, police records and some
investigative reports such as that of Mr. Carretero " Tango testigo social"
(Tango social witness). In his booklet Mr Carretero gives many examples of
police and hospital records in this regard.

Tango has followed in its form and content every change in Argentine social
evolution, the dance, the music and the lyrics as well.

Best regards, Sergio






La cercanma de los bailarines y la sensualidad de su insinuante coreografma
dice mucho sobre su origen prostibulario en los suburbios de Buenos Aires.
Mas lo recuerdan los nombres de los primeros tangos que se conocen:

Afeitate el 7 que el 8 es fiesta (de Antonio Lagomarsino). Durante esos aqos
los tangos se publicaban como partituras para piano (en esa ipoca, en
Argentina, muchas casas de clase media tenman un piano); en la caratula
podma verse un almanaque en el que cama la hoja del dma siete y se dejaba
ver la del ocho. Pero en lunfardo +siete; era el nombre del ano; y +hacerle
el siete; a alguien era penetrarlo analmente.
!Al palo! (de Eduardo Bolter Bulterini). +Estar al palo; significa
experimentar una ereccisn.
Bartolo (milonga): +Bartolo tenma una flauta / con un aujerito solo, / y su
mama le decma: / +Deja la flauta, Bartolo!; // Bartolo querma casarse / para
gozar de mil placeres. / Y entre quinientas mujeres / ninguna buena
encontrs. // Pues siendo muy exigente / no halls mujer a su gusto, / y por
evitar disgustos / solterito se queds;.
Cambalache, Una cancisn que alude a los problemas generales del mundo,
haciendo queja de gente nociva o inecesaria para la sociedad. Usando
palabras como Ignorante, Estafador, ladrsn.
Colgate del aeroplano.
Dame la lata, que hace referencia a las fichas de latsn con el nzmero de
turno que daban a los clientes en espera, en los antiguos kekos o quilombos
(burdeles situados al lado de los cuarteles).
Date vuelta (de Emilio Sassenus).
Dejalo morir adentro (de Josi Di Clemente).
?De quiin es eso? (Ernesto Ponzio).
Dos sin sacarla (se refiere a dos orgasmos masculinos consecutivos).
?Dsnde topa que no dentra? (de Alfredo Gobbi, padre): +?Con qui tropieza que
no entra?;.
El fierrazo (de Carlos Hernani Macchi), refiriindose al acto sexual: +Por
salir con una piba / que era muy dicharachera, / me han quedado las orejas /
como flor de regadera; (las cursivas indican palabras censuradas).
El choclo (de Angel Villoldo): nombre de la mazorca de mamz, pero que en
lunfardo significa pene, por su forma falica). Algunos autores dicen que
originalmente se llamaba mas explmcitamente El choto.
El matambre (J. B. Massa. Podrma tratarse de Juan Bautista Massa, compositor
rosarino de mzsica clasica, pero no hay pruebas).
El movimiento continuo (de Oscar Barabino).
El 69 El 69 es la posicisn en que el hombre y la mujer practican el sexo
oral al mismo tiempo, es facil ver la relacisn entre tal posicisn y el
grafismo del nzmero 69.
El tercero (A. L. Fistolera Mallii).
Empuja que se va a abrir (Vicente La Salvia).
Hacele el rulo a la vieja (de Ernesto Zsboli, 1905), +hacer el culo a una
persona; quiere decir penetrarla analmente.
La c...ara de la l...una (de Manuel Campoamor). En la portada aparecma un
dibujo de la Luna. Pero se sobreentendma que se referma a +la concha de la
lora; (una usadmsima interjeccisn vulgar de enojo o contrariedad, que se
basa en una etimologma completamente olvidada en Argentina: a las
prostitutas europeas se les decma +loras;). Iste fue un tango muy conocido
en esa ipoca.
Lavalle y Ombz (de Hictor G. Ventramile).
Metele bomba al primus (Josi Arturo Severino). El primus era la marca
registrada de un calentador a gas de kerosin, que requerma ser bombeado.
Papas calientes (de Eduardo Arolas).
Pan dulce (de Oscar J. Rossi).
!Qui polvo con tanto viento! (de Pedro M. Quijano, c. 1890). +Echarse un
polvo; en lunfardo significa tener una relacisn sexual. De este tango el
Pibe Ernesto (Ernesto Ponzio: violinista y compositor rosarino. Gardel cants
uno de sus tangos (Culpas ajenas); Borges y Bioy Casares lo mencionan en
Seis problemas para Isidro Parodi) toms la primera parte para escribir Don
Juan.
Se te pars el motor (de Rsmulo Pane).
Siete pulgadas (refiere al orgullo de poseer un pene de 17,8 cm).
Sacudime la persiana (de Vicente Loduca); una manera de pedir a la empleada
domistica que limpiara las ventanas, pero +sacudir; tiene tambiin una
insinuacisn erstica.
Tocame +La Carolina; (de Bernardino Teris): el dibujo representa una pareja
sentada en el sillsn. Al lado, un piano. En el atril una partitura titulada
La Carolina. El hombre le esta diciendo algo a la dama. La duda es si el
hombre le esta diciendo: +Tocamela, Carolina;.
Tocamelo que me gusta (de Prudencio Muqoz): +Con tus malas purgaciones / me
llenastes [sic] un barril. / Y me tuviste en la cama / febrero, marzo y
abril;.
Tocalo que me gusta (de Alberto Mazzoni).
Tocalo mas fuerte (de Pancho Nicolmn).
Tomame el pulso (de Pedro Festa).
Va Celina en la punta: en la portada de la partitura se vema una yegua (de
nombre Celina), ganando una carrera en el hipsdromo. Pero +Va Celina; se
puede leer como vaselina (un antiguo y popular lubricante sexual.
Viejo, encendi el calentador (de J. L. Bandami).
Concha sucia (+Concha sucia, te viniste con la concha sin lavar;), del Negro
Casimiro, violinista de raza negra, un mzsico olvidado, que muris en la
miseria. Este tango y El choclo son los znicos que siguieron siendo
recordados posteriormente.
Los nombres y las letras de estos tangos tuvieron que ser cambiados luego
del golpe de estado del general Uriburu (la primera interrupcisn de la vida
constitucional en Argentina, en 1930, que inicis la Dicada Infame, de corte
represivo). Por ejemplo, Concha sucia se convirtis en Cara sucia. Francisco
Canaro se ocups de cambiarle la letra:

Cara sucia, cara sucia, cara sucia,
te has venido con la cara sin lavar
esa cara y tu sonrisa picarona,
que refleja una pasisn angelical.
Cara sucia, cara sucia, cara sucia,
te has venido con la cara sin lavar
melenuda, melenuda, melenuda,
te has venido con el pelo sin peinar.
Reciin a fines del s. XX los historiadores porteqos recuperaron algunos de
estos tangos (aunque sslo los tmtulos

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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 16:41:49 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Argentine Tango III
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600707191641h36613a4ahe2ebc1304460513c@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Sergio,

I will try to get back to some of this when time permits. I am
familiar with these proxy arguments involving excerpts of indecent
lyrics and such, but uncomfortable with the large amount of
extrapolation and logical leaps required to get from A to B. It will
be nice to come up with a list of supposed primary sources, too, and
then examine those.

By the way, and without discussing anything seriously before I can get
to my materials,
just as an observation, I have never quite understood the logic of how
the existence of indecent lyrics (attached or not to tango music)
logically necessitates brothel/prostitution origin of tango
music/dancing.

At most it may indicate the mindset or world view (and this is really
pushing it) of the author, or 'poet'. I think practically every
culture has had indecent texts floating around, sometimes attached
post factum to decent songs, sometimes attached to previously songless
melodies, sometimes just being 'dirty' poems without music (not to
mention larger literary works). Are we going to claim they (or, even
more expansively, related art forms) must have had a brothel origin?
That has never made much logical sense to me, but then I have not
really thought too deeply about it, so perhaps someone else can
comment or suggest how these things connect logically.

Also, it would be nice if one would also check through Argentine folk
songs (like what the payadores would sing, for example) and other
literary works and determine if Argentina has had no indecent literary
works of any kind except in tango songs (why - because no one is
seriously claiming that folk dancing originated in brothels, for
example).

Sorry for the wordiness but there are so many questions with these
types of arguments..

With best regards,

Konstantin
Victoria, Canada


On 7/18/07, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> wrote:

> What is known about tango history is due to several sources, in particular
> from the police records of Buenos aires and Montevideo dating from early
> 19th century when "Dances of Negroes" were regulated by the City Hall and
> frequently raided by the police. There are records dating 1808 forbidding
> Candombes and other dances of negroes.

[...]