1318 BANDONEON AND SHORTENING PERSPECTIVES
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:56:10 -0300
From: Ruben Carlos Terbalca <rubenmilonga@SINECTIS.COM.AR>
Subject: BANDONEON AND SHORTENING PERSPECTIVES
Dirk,
(excuse my bad English)
Thanks for your email, and thanks again for help me with your helpful clarification.
We agree in several points.
One of them is my shortening perspective, and I can agree also that I am not very clever or good informed.-Also my comment is referred till =
the end tango Golden Time 1959.
I never had the intention to confuse, just to share : the German Tango Bandoneon "MODELO ARGENTINO" was something made for argentinos =
musicians, and not for Germans.-
We agree also in the Piazzolla irony about church and brothel (sometimes interchange protagonists, not only in tango).
I cannot help you with your serious doubts, because the Germans are over 70 .000.000.
Nobody can know about the comfort of everyone (playing some instrument).
My intention was just to underline : the looking an form , and (possible) the sound was different, at the beginning, because different =
boxes makes different sounds, also in all the other instruments.-
I understand that my references are limited, but in 1985 the WESTDEUTSCHER RUNDFUNK KÖLN ( WESTGERMAN BROADCAST. COLOGNE) =
publish a research special made to clear some points about the bandoneon history. Based just in documents, not in doubts (when new documents =
appears the historians changes the position) :
1)They find official papers, and documents from each city, like H. Band never had a city work permit or a music instruments factory , just a =
music shop city permit-(Also is possible he makes some changes or contribution - my comment-).-
2)The first bandoneon creator (1851) was (Karl) Zimmermann from Kreffeld .
Before H. Band start to sell and change his name was called "Krefelder Konzertina" (because the differences with the Uhlig Konzertina -1935-). =
Mr. H. Band was focused in accordIONS and he mix her name with the end "ION" for advertising reasons (this is one of the conclusion of this =
research).
3)The Teachers, and Musician German Bandoneon Asociations wrote rules about the different bondoneon standards : construction, size, number of =
keys ,etc. everything for different bandoneon versions thru the time. Never was included or accepted the special one made for Argentina.-
There was registered till 1930, 15000 bandoneon players in the German Music institutions.
All this information was based just in documents (official papers from each institution).
I never so the originals of this documents, just the research, and some copies of them...we can have doubts about the Official West German =
Broadcast Cologne said the true...
(It is important to remember that the early ones was developed for sacred music, between other music).
At the end was contemporary "STANDARD UNIFICADO" =144 ; and "MODELO ARGENTINO" =142
----------------
Some other of my shortening perspectives:
Casually my mother and her parents come to Argentina (1922 / 3) from the Ruhrgebiet (Essen)
My grandfather was a miner and amateur singer (her father was a professional singer).
I start to collect tango materials in 1959. When I ask to my grandfather about his German bandoneon knowledge- before 1922- (he never play), the =
answer was: the Argentinean tango bandoneon is more beautiful but is not the same that I could see in Germany , and the sound is different.
I spent 19 trips to Germany, and other German Cultural Countrys. I was visiting music museums, I find 14 different, never the Tango =
Bandoneon.-
Two years ago I was working shortly in the Ruhrgebiet, but this also shortening perspective...
Ruben Terbalca Danziger
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 05:23:03 -0400
From: Dirk J Bakker <dbakker@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: BANDONEON AND SHORTENING PERSPECTIVES
Ruben,
A not so trivial clarification: I wrote FOREshortening, not shortening.
Perhaps the difference may have affected how you took and understood my
comment.
Foreshortening is the type of perspective where visual elements in
architecture or sculpture are compressed by virtue of the viewer's
position. My analogy was that similarly when it comes to the time
element, we may have our view distorted. And as you point out, we are at
the mercy of historians, of what resources were/are available and those
interpretations that survive.
Again you may have misunderstood me, I base my comments purely on the
basis of the physical key layouts of the models that preceded the
Argentinean model that came to be known as the Bandoneon. Not on any
doubts. While I am impressed by your research, I stand by my 'doubts',
no matter how temptating this passive expression may be. In the context
of the derivative nature of the instrument's evolution, I still consider
inappropriate your use of the word 'never'.
As I pointed out, it is the generic use of the word bandoneon that
creates confusion.
Ruben Carlos Terbalca wrote:
>Dirk,
>(excuse my bad English)
>Thanks for your email, and thanks again for help me with your helpful clarification.
> We agree in several points.
>One of them is my shortening perspective, and I can agree also that I am not very clever or good informed.-Also my comment is referred till the end tango Golden Time 1959.
>I never had the intention to confuse, just to share : the German Tango Bandoneon "MODELO ARGENTINO" was something made for argentinos musicians, and not for Germans.-
>
The way I understand it, it was a model made for the Latin American
market. Uruguay, Brazil and perhaps several other countries included.
>We agree also in the Piazzolla irony about church and brothel (sometimes interchange protagonists, not only in tango).
>I cannot help you with your serious doubts, because the Germans are over 70 .000.000.
>
Now or then? What is the relevance? Would all play it?
>Nobody can know about the comfort of everyone (playing some instrument).
>
On the contrary. It is really very simple ergonomics as they affect
learning. Just look at the correspondence of key positions. It is easier
to make that 'leap' of judgment than to claim that germans NEVER played
any of the various models that lead to, and including, the 142 tone
model. At the very least, the people at the factory, the salesmen, some
renegade tutor, teacher or musician had to have been German. Just as
Americans still use the English system of measurements that the English
themselves abandoned for the metric system, the Argentinians, and other
South American users, hold on to but one 'branch' of a progressive
evolution.
>My intention was just to underline : the looking an form , and (possible) the sound was different, at the beginning, because different boxes makes different sounds, also in all the other instruments.-
>I understand that my references are limited, but in 1985 the WESTDEUTSCHER RUNDFUNK KVLN ( WESTGERMAN BROADCAST. COLOGNE) publish a research special made to clear some points about the bandoneon history. Based just in documents, not in doubts (when new documents appears the historians changes the position) :
>
>1)They find official papers, and documents from each city, like H. Band never had a city work permit or a music instruments factory , just a music shop city permit-(Also is possible he makes some changes or contribution - my comment-).-
>
Yes, from what I have read, he was more of a promoter and dealer than
manufacturer. He just happened to put his name on the models he promoted
or commissioned to be made by others. Not unlike modern 'brand' names.
>2)The first bandoneon creator (1851) was (Karl) Zimmermann from Kreffeld .
>Before H. Band start to sell and change his name was called "Krefelder Konzertina" (because the differences with the Uhlig Konzertina -1935-). Mr. H. Band was focused in accordIONS and he mix her name with the end "ION" for advertising reasons (this is one of the conclusion of this research).
>
Interesting this reference:
https://trfn.clpgh.org/free-reed/history/bandoneon.html
speaks of a Zimmerman exhibiting a "Carlsfelder Konzertina" at the
Industrial Exhibition of 1849 Paris a model that on 1850 Band started to
advertise as available.
I think you mean 1835 in the reference to the Uhlig Harmonika, which
came to be known as the German Concertina.
Also note, Harry Geuns' plausible explanation and "The button-board
layouts by the three "builders" became known as the Rheinische (Band),
Chemnitzer (Uhlig) and Carlsfelder (Zimmerman) systems. "
I could just as easily 'split-hairs' as you did, and claim that
Zimmerman never created any bandoneon, but I understand what you mean.
As I trust Gulden, before your refutation, did as well. Why is he not
entitled to misuse the term, but you are?
But more importantly, as noted in this site:
https://laue.ethz.ch/cm/band/node11.html
Look at the 1900 entry. The Bandonion is equated to the rhineisch lage
(layout). The Concertina to the chemnitzer and karlsfelder layouts. And
that more than anything is what segregated the precursors of the 130
model which led to the 142 model. Additionally, I trust you will agree
that historically and for reasons of marketing the names were
interchanged and misused as they are to this day. Therefore, following
the names alone is a fool's errand. The more reliable approach is to
look at the key layouts and tonal character of the reed construction.
>3)The Teachers, and Musician German Bandoneon Asociations wrote rules about the different bondoneon standards : construction, size, number of keys ,etc. everything for different bandoneon versions thru the time. Never was included or accepted the special one made for Argentina.-
>There was registered till 1930, 15000 bandoneon players in the German Music institutions.
>All this information was based just in documents (official papers from each institution).
>I never so the originals of this documents, just the research, and some copies of them...we can have doubts about the Official West German Broadcast Cologne said the true...
>(It is important to remember that the early ones was developed for sacred music, between other music).
>At the end was contemporary "STANDARD UNIFICADO" 4 ; and "MODELO ARGENTINO" 2
>Some other of my shortening perspectives:
>Casually my mother and her parents come to Argentina (1922 / 3) from the Ruhrgebiet (Essen)
>My grandfather was a miner and amateur singer (her father was a professional singer).
>I start to collect tango materials in 1959. When I ask to my grandfather about his German bandoneon knowledge- before 1922- (he never play), the answer was: the Argentinean tango bandoneon is more beautiful but is not the same that I could see in Germany , and the sound is different.
>
Not to disparage your, nor your grandfather's nostalgic memories, but
the 130-tone (65 button) bandonion introduced into South America was but
one of many models made by the Germans. The additional 6 buttons added
12 tones only. That is NOT that much of a difference. The tunings of the
double reeds, octave-tuned with one middle and one high reed per note is
what affect its tonal character. More buttons just added a few more notes.
As you, no doubt, know a 152 tone model was further made until the
German "unificado' radically changed the note distribution and only then
was cross training made difficult though certainly not impossible. This
152 model added 5 more buttons (10 tones) to the 142 'argentinian', as
you call it, model. Who would this model have been marketed for? The
Argentinians? My 'educated' guess/speculation is that a market does not
readily jump from 130 to 152 back to 144, but a more reasonable
evolution logically would be a gradual one.
The difference that is associated with the Bandoneon sound is not due
mearly to the reeds and mechanics, but to that beauty, that is musical
and cultural that is uniquely Tango. A debt and credit the entire world
owes the creative Argentinian musician (and other) people.
Piazzolla another truly creative visionary understood the tremendous
potential of the traditional Tango as basis, with classical and jazz
influence, for what he was to initially earn as condemnation for
violating its traditions. The instrument itself in the hands of another
visionary, well who knows what is to come.
And that is my one-eyeball perspective. ;-)
Dirk Bakker
>I spent 19 trips to Germany, and other German Cultural Countrys. I was visiting music museums, I find 14 different, never the Tango Bandoneon.-
>Two years ago I was working shortly in the Ruhrgebiet, but this also shortening perspective...
>
>Ruben Terbalca Danziger
>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:09:59 -0400
From: Dirk J Bakker <dbakker@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: BANDONEON AND SHORTENING PERSPECTIVES
Ruben,
I do not claim to know the answers, that is why questions are asked. All
I do know is that those points (questions) I have raised you have not
addressed yourself to satisfactorily. Perhaps nobody can possibly answer
them now.
The evolution to what led to the 142 so-called 'Argentinian' model could
not possibly have occurred instantly. So the 130 tone model that
preceded it, which was introduced by Band to South America was, in fact
used by both Germans and South Americans contemporaneously for a period
of time. How much time transpired between that initial introduction and
the advent of the 142 model, I have no idea. The documentation does not
address itself to this issue. Perhaps you know this and have withheld
it. My best guess is that it had to have occurred sometime between 1858
and 1912.
I do not know if you have carefully scrutinized the layout pictures I
have made reference to. They prove to me, at least, that the 142 tone
(Rheinische Lage) model was a direct design descentant of the 130 tone
model of 1858, which itself came from a 100 tone model (1854), with
three preceding extensions from an initial layout of approx. 1844.
All these models were manufactured in Germany so to claim that a German
NEVER played them or that because nobody can find a 142 model in Germany
proves non-use are ludicrous. There is a great difference between an
absolute ('never') and a preponderance (i.e. that the 142 bisonoric
model was intended for the South American market).
Where the special version 152 tone model (1912 and a direct descendant
of the 142 tone model) 'fits' into this evolution you have also not
addressed yourself to. Were it to have been used only by South Americans
would strengthen your line of reasoning that this path was exclusively a
separate market. But if it was used by Germans (or simply
non-Argentines), then to jump from 130 to 152 would seem unlikely and
would refute your assertion.
To this you only responded with: '----144 have a different keys
distribution---'.
This adds absolutely nothing new to the discussion considering that from
my first comments, I have asserted that "It is only after 1924 with
creation of the 144 voice Einheitsbandoneon
<https://laue.ethz.ch/cm/pic/pdf/Ein_144.pdf> that your statement may be
applicable."
Once again, this occurred only AFTER 1924 yet you make it seem as though
this affected the prior designs in the name of "German standards".
Perhaps it is you that has trouble understanding or following the
chronology.
Additionally, I fail to understand how forwarding Gulden's email serves
to further your cause. He states "It is still
not clear to me though, what the reason for producing a special version
of an already existing instrument to export it to overseas." This quote
only serves to reinforce my 'doubts' as to your obtuse position.
As I have mentioned previously, effective communication is hindered by
imprecise terminology not by the use of any one specific language. For
example, are you aware there is a 142 model that is unisonoric? that
there is additionally references to a 156 tone model?
You state there are no 142 models are to be found in Germany: I direct
you to the Carsfeld site
https://www.bandonion-carlsfeld.de/english/english/instruments/choosetheinstrum.html
where to this day they sell two 110 tone "Rheinische Tonlage" Pupil
models (read: non-German standard), a 142 "Rheinische Tonlage" model
and two 144 "Einheitsbandonion" models. Why, pray tell, would a person
need to buy exclusively from Bs As a 142 model unless, of course, one
wants a 'vintage' instrument or a collectible? Why would a 110 tone
model, which follows the layout of the larger 'Argentine' only be sold
for Pupils and NOT a pupil version that follows the "Einheitsbandonion"
German standards model? My educated guess is that they are made thusly
because they sell and the "Rheinische Tonlage" layout is used world
wide. And this in no way proves or disproves the usage in Germany.
I would be glad to converse with you in Spanish, as it is my mother
tongue, were it not to exclude others who might contribute, from
participating here.
Dirk
Note: I have deleted the prior material as it exceeded the limit of the
list.
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 22:20:59 -0400
From: Dirk J Bakker <dbakker@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: BANDONEON AND SHORTENING PERSPECTIVES
(Spanish translation of prior post)
Ruben,
No pretendo saber las respuestas, por esa razsn se hacen las preguntas.
Lo que sm si es que aquellos puntos (s preguntas) cuales he presentado
usted no se ha dirigido satisfactoriamente. Es posible que nadie ahora
pueda responder a ellas.
La evolucmon en cual culmins el supuesto modelo 'Argentino' de 142 tonos
no es posible haber ocurrido inmediatamente. Asm que el modelo de 130
tonos que lo precedis, el cual fze introducido por Band a Sur America,
de hecho, fui usado por ambos, los Alemanes y los Sud Americanos, al
mismo y por cierto periodo de tiempo. Cuanto tiempo occurris dentro de
su introducmon inicial y el advenimiento del modelo 142, no tengo la
menor idea. La documentacmon no se dirige a este sujeto. Quizas usted lo
sabe y lo ha retenido. My mejor suposicmon es que ha de haber ocurrido
en algun tiempo entre el 1858 y el 1912.
No si si usted ha analisado cuidadosamente los diagramas de teclados a
los cuales le hi hecho referencia. Ellos me lo comprueban, por lo menos,
que el modelo de 142 tonos (el Rheinische Lage) fui un descendiente
directo del modelo 130 del aqo 1858, el cual origins del modelo de 100
tonos (1854), con tris alargamientos precedentes de un teclado inicial
del 1844 aproximadamente.
Todos estos modelos fueron hechos en Alemania asm que pretender que un
Aleman NUNCA los tocs s que porque nadie los puede encontrar en Alemania
comprueba no uso es absurdo. Hay una gran diferencia entre un absoluto
('nunca') y una preponderancia (que el modelo bisonorico 142 fui pensado
para el mercado de Sur America).
Donde la versisn modelo especial de 152 tonos (1912 y un descendiente
directo del modelo de 142 tonos) 'encaja' dentro de esta evolucisn usted
tambiin no se ha dirigido a eso. Si ha de haber sido usado solamente por
Sud Americanos esto ha de reforzar su argumento que este cendero fue
exclusivamente un mercado separado. Pero si fui usado por los Alemanes
(s simplemente por no-Argentinos), entonces brincar de 130 a 152 tonos
ha de parecer improbable y ha de refutar su asercisn.
A esto usted ha respuesto solo con: '----144 have a different keys
distribution---'.
Esto aqade absolutamente nada nuevo a la discusisn considerando que
desde mis primeros comentarios, yo he asertado que "Es que solamente
despuis de 1924 con la creacisn del 144 voces Einheitsbandoneon
<https://laue.ethz.ch/cm/pic/pdf/Ein_144.pdf> que su declaracisn puede
ser aplicable.
Una vez mas, esto ocuris solamente DESPUES de 1924 azn usted hace
parecer como si este acontecimiento fue de afectar los diseqos
anteriores en el nombre de "Los estandares Alemanes". Quizas es que es
usted el que tiene dificultad en comprender s seguir la cronologia.
Adicionalmente, yo no entiendo en que forma el adelanto del email de
Gulden ha de avanzar su causa. En el ella dice: "Azn a mm no es claro,
cual [fui] la razsn por la cual se produjo una versisn especial de un
instrumento ya existente para exportacisn en el exterior." Esta solo
sirve como refuerce a mis 'dudas' acerca de su posicisn obtusa.
Tal como he mencionado anteriormente, la comunicacisn effectiva esta
entorpecida por la terminologia imprecisa no tanto por el uso de
cualquier lenguaje especifico. Por ejemplo, sabe usted que existe un
modelo 142 que is unisonorico? Que existen adicionalmente referencias a
un modelo de 156 tonos?
Usted declara que no ha de encontrarse modelos 142 en Alemania: Yo lo
dirijo a esta pagina de web de Carsfeld
https://www.bandonion-carlsfeld.de/english/english/instruments/choosetheinstrum.html
donde hasta hoy dma se venden dos modelos para estudiante de 110 tonos
"Rheinische Tonlage" (lease como: no estandar Aleman), un modelo de 142
"Rheinische Tonlage" y dos modelos de 144 "Einheitsbandonion". Por qui,
le ruego digame, ha de necesitar alguien comprar exclusivamente desde Bs
As un modelo 142 a no ser que esta persona desea un instrumento de
'vendimia' s por su valor de antiguedad. Porque ha de ser que un modelo
de 110 tonos, el cual es fiel a la disposicisn del 'Argentino' mas
grande, solamente se vende para estudiantes y NO una versisn estudiantml
que se adhiera a el modelo "Einheitsbandonion" de los estandares
Alemanes? Mi informada suposicisn es que estos estan hechos en tal forma
porque se venden y su disposicisn "Rheinische Tonlage" se usa por todo
el mundo. Y esto de ninguna forma prueba s ns su uso en Alemania.
Me complacerma conversar con usted en Espaqol, pues ella es mi lenguaje
natal, no fuese que esto haya de excluir otros quienes pudiesen
contribuir, de participar aqum.
Dirk
Nota: Hi borrado la materia anterior pues habma excedido el limite de la
lista.
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 23:36:03 -0400
From: Dirk J Bakker <dbakker@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: BANDONEON AND SHORTENING PERSPECTIVES
(2nd Spanish translation of prior post deleting orthographic signs)
Ruben,
No pretendo saber las respuestas, por esa razon se hacen las preguntas.
Lo que si se es que aquellos puntos (o preguntas) cuales he presentado
usted no se ha dirigido satisfactoriamente. Es posible que nadie ahora
pueda responder a ellas.
La evolucion en cual culmino el supuesto modelo 'Argentino' de 142 tonos
no es posible haber ocurrido inmediatamente. Asi que el modelo de 130
tonos que lo precedio, el cual fue introducido por Band a Sur America,
de hecho, fui usado por ambos, los Alemanes y los Sud Americanos, al
mismo y por cierto periodo de tiempo. Cuanto tiempo occurrio dentro de
su introducion inicial y el advenimiento del modelo 142, no tengo la
menor idea. La documentacion no se dirige a este sujeto. Quizas usted lo
sabe y lo ha retenido. My mejor suposicion es que ha de haber ocurrido
en algun tiempo entre el 1858 y el 1912.
No se si usted ha analizado cuidadosamente los diagramas de teclados a
los cuales le he hecho referencia. Ellos me lo comprueban, por lo menos,
que el modelo de 142 tonos (el Rheinische Lage) fue un descendiente
directo del modelo 130 del ano 1858, el cual origino del modelo de 100
tonos (1854), con tres alargamientos precedentes de un teclado inicial
del 1844 aproximadamente.
Todos estos modelos fueron hechos en Alemania asi que pretender que un
Aleman NUNCA los toco o que porque nadie los puede encontrar en Alemania
comprueba no uso es absurdo. Hay una gran diferencia entre un absoluto
('nunca') y una preponderancia (que el modelo bisonorico 142 fue pensado
para el mercado de Sur America).
Donde la version modelo especial de 152 tonos (1912 y un descendiente
directo del modelo de 142 tonos) 'encaja' dentro de esta evolucion usted
tambien no se ha dirigido a eso. Si ha de haber sido usado solamente por
Sud Americanos esto ha de reforzar su argumento que este cendero fue
exclusivamente un mercado separado. Pero si fue usado por los Alemanes
(o simplemente por no-Argentinos), entonces brincar de 130 a 152 tonos
ha de parecer improbable y ha de refutar su asercion.
A esto usted ha respuesto solo con: '----144 have a different keys
distribution---'.
Esto anade absolutamente nada nuevo a la discusion considerando que
desde mis primeros comentarios, yo he asertado que "Es que solamente
despues de 1924 con la creacion del 144 voces Einheitsbandoneon
<https://laue.ethz.ch/cm/pic/pdf/Ein_144.pdf> que su declaracion puede
ser aplicable.
Una vez mas, esto ocurio solamente DESPUES de 1924 aun usted hace
parecer como si este acontecimiento fue de afectar los disenos
anteriores en el nombre de "Los estandares Alemanes". Quizas es que es
usted el que tiene dificultad en comprender o seguir la cronologia.
Adicionalmente, yo no entiendo en que forma el adelanto del email de
Gulden ha de avanzar su causa. En el ella dice: "Aun a mi no es claro,
cual [fue] la razon por la cual se produjo una version especial de un
instrumento ya existente para exportacion en el exterior." Esta solo
sirve como refuerce a mis 'dudas' acerca de su posicion obtusa.
Tal como he mencionado anteriormente, la comunicacion effectiva esta
entorpecida por la terminologia imprecisa no tanto por el uso de
cualquier lenguaje especifico. Por ejemplo, sabe usted que existe un
modelo 142 que is unisonorico? Que existen adicionalmente referencias a
un modelo de 156 tonos?
Usted declara que no ha de encontrarse modelos 142 en Alemania: Yo lo
dirijo a esta pagina de web de Carsfeld
https://www.bandonion-carlsfeld.de/english/english/instruments/choosetheinstrum.html
donde hasta hoy dia se venden dos modelos para estudiante de 110 tonos
"Rheinische Tonlage" (lease como: no estandar Aleman), un modelo de 142
"Rheinische Tonlage" y dos modelos de 144 "Einheitsbandonion". Por que,
le ruego digame, ha de necesitar alguien comprar exclusivamente desde Bs
As un modelo 142 a no ser que esta persona desea un instrumento de
'vendimia' o por su valor de antiguedad. Porque ha de ser que un modelo
de 110 tonos, el cual es fiel a la disposicion del 'Argentino' mas
grande, solamente se vende para estudiantes y NO una version estudiantil
que se adhiera a el modelo "Einheitsbandonion" de los estandares
Alemanes? Mi informada suposicion es que estos estan hechos en tal forma
porque se venden y su disposicion "Rheinische Tonlage" se usa por todo
el mundo. Y esto de ninguna forma prueba o no su uso en Alemania.
Me complacera conversar con usted en Espanol, pues el es mi lenguaje
natal, no fuese que esto haya de excluir otros quienes pudiesen
contribuir, de participar aqui.
Dirk
Nota: He borrado la materia anterior pues habia excedido el limite de la
lista.
