4596 Beginner to Intermediate
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 10:48:10 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Beginner to Intermediate
To: Tango-L <tango-L@mit.edu>
What vanity and pseudo-self-esteem these people have!? "Oh, I just
want to challenge myself" What about the other people in class?
This is a problem all over. Many teachers or workshop organizers are
unable or unwilling to set levels or enforce levels. It gets so bad
sometimes that you have intermediates who can't do ochos learning
volcadas or ganchos in a class labeled advanced.
Some teachers welcome anybody into an advanced class or workshop
under the philosophy that people can learn fancy steps and build up
technique later. I think they are just trying to build attendance,
without any concern for the quality of learning for the individual or
the other students.
I'm of the opposite philosophy, i.e. that with good technique you can
easily learn fancier steps, and reversing the order embeds bad habits
that slow down your progress. We've all seen women who don't have
balance and can't even do an ochos smoothly being thrased through the
tango turn. They're just learning that thrashing is a lead for the turn.
If you layer the learning process properly (strategically), then
people progress more quickly and feel more successful at each
stage... this boosts retention at each stage.
How about introducing the idea of "Advanced-Beginner"?
"This is an intermediate class. Please be aware that there is a large
gap between Beginner and Intermediate. In this class we assume you
ALREADY know ochos and och-cortados. Those are topics we cover in our
Adv-Beginner series".
"For those of you who have been doing beginner tango for 4 or 8 weeks
and are ready to move on. Please join our "Advanced Beginner
Progressive Series". This is not a drop-in course. In this eight week
series we will review and develop ocho cortados and ochos."
The idea is that people should spend a month or two in beginner and
two months at adv-beginner. Those exceptions can be bumped to adv-
beginner to pick up vocabulary, instead of intermediate where they
frustrate everybody else.
Sometimes your beginner series is mostly about learning to walk and
basic lead-follow. Upgrade your beginner class to include
improvisation, musicality, phrasing and rhythms, and then it won't be
so boring. When I visit a new community (or when I get students from
other teachers who don't teach musicality) I discover that many
Intermediates know quite a bit of vocabulary, but aren't very good at
rhythm and musical phrasing. These are topics I cover in my brand-new
beginner class. Presenting the same topics to Intermediates actually
creates a challenging and interesting class.
On Sep 7, 2006, at 12:11 AM, Fred Herman & Mary Menz wrote:
> When someone who does not yet belong at an intermediate level class
> shows up at one, has anyone out there found a diplomatic way to deal
> with the situation?
> Also, has anyone found a good, reliable way to graduate someone from
> the beginning class to intermediate? I would be curious to know what
> seems to have worked for other people out there.
> Mary
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 14:27:13 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Beginner to Intermediate
To: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Tom Stermitz wrote:
> What vanity and pseudo-self-esteem these people have!? "Oh, I just
> want to challenge myself" What about the other people in class?
Every old hand I've ever spoken to has a story about this.
> This is a problem all over. Many teachers or workshop organizers are
> unable or unwilling to set levels or enforce levels. It gets so bad
> sometimes that you have intermediates who can't do ochos learning
> volcadas or ganchos in a class labeled advanced.
The best solution is for organizers to stop asking teachers for stuff
like "Invoking and Executing Linear Boleos", "Turbo Ganchos in Giros",
and the like. At the Chicago Festival, for the intermediate classes
I took, 75% of the people in the classes did not have the fundamentals
required to execute what the teachers taught in even a halfassed way.
Every once in a while you hear about teachers that rebel against the
status quo. In that very same Chicago Festival, Javier Rodriguez and
Andrea Misse canceled a class on "Boleos and Ganchos" on the spot,
and instead taught a class on walking in the embrace. Why? Because
the people in the class were blatantly not ready for the material.
> Some teachers welcome anybody into an advanced class or workshop
> under the philosophy that people can learn fancy steps and build up
> technique later. I think they are just trying to build attendance,
> without any concern for the quality of learning for the individual or
> the other students.
Agreed.
> I'm of the opposite philosophy, i.e. that with good technique you can
> easily learn fancier steps, and reversing the order embeds bad habits
> that slow down your progress. We've all seen women who don't have
> balance and can't even do an ochos smoothly being thrased through the
> tango turn. They're just learning that thrashing is a lead for the turn.
Agreed again.
> If you layer the learning process properly (strategically), then
> people progress more quickly and feel more successful at each
> stage... this boosts retention at each stage.
The best way to teach is in terms of things people already know.
Then students are functioning at the outside boundaries of what
is familiar to them, which is hallowed educational ground.
How you break material down doesn't matter too much so long as
you follow that rule.
Christopher
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 13:03:29 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Beginner to Intermediate
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Christopher:
"In that very same Chicago Festival, Javier Rodriguez and
Andrea Misse canceled a class on "Boleos and Ganchos" on the spot,
and instead taught a class on walking in the embrace. Why? Because
the people in the class were blatantly not ready for the material."
Bravo! That is because Javier Rodriguez and Andrea Misse dance and teach
Tango!
Here they are:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqtm_mpxAok&mode=related&search
They understand the utmost importance of walks and connection. This is the
essence of tango.
Igor Polk.
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 16:54:02 EDT
From: Dlpens@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] Beginner to Intermediate
Cc: ipolk@virtuar.com
Concerning the recently concluded Chicago Tango Fest, I have one correction
and some additional comments on the classes. During Fernanda and Guillermo's
"Turbo Gancho in Giros" class, a friend of mine in the class asked the
instructors to explain "Turbo Ganchos" early in the class. Guillermo looked at
him, puzzled at the request. My friend showed him the schedule whereupon
Guillermo laughed out loud- it was a misprint. The class was about "Turns and
Ganchos in Giros". Many of us avoided that class like the plague figuring that
the class would be about high speed, fast moving ganchos. So the laugh was
on us as Guillermo and Fernando are wonderful and very popular instructors.
In point of fact, Javier and Andrea did change the subject of a class after
only a few minutes. The class contained some fine instructors but somehow
Javier felt that the entire class needed to concentrate on walking. One
instructor, known for his walking and teaching, had no problem with having walking
exercises but did not count on 1 1/2 hours of walking. Others walked out of
the class deeply disturbed by Javier's prognosis.
In another "advanced" class, the instructor had to take time out of the
class to go over an ocho with one student.
In my opinion, when left to the dancer to place him or her self in a
beginner, intermediate or advanced class, the majority will select a higher level
then they should have considered. Never was this more evident than in the
first extensive tango course my wife and I took in 1998 in Montreal. On the
first day, the organizers, Daniel Trenner with Rebecca Shulman, asked everyone
to select beginner, intermediate or advanced level. One dancer I know placed
himself in the advanced level. In fact, he had no concept of the basics and
in the end, he upset the organizers as well as his class mates. They tried a
subtle approach to cause him to move into the beginner level and eventually
he was asked to leave that level altogether.
The organizer in Chicago tried to use "number of years dancing tango" as a
criteria for level placement. I pointed out to him that this was not the
criteria to use. Using the "years of dancing" criteria some local dancers with
10+ years of experience would have been placed in the advanced level despite
the fact that they never progressed out of the basic beginner level. On the
other hand, one world class local dancer, teacher, international performer
with only 4 1/2 years of tango experience would barely have made it into the
advanced level. Natural talent and dedication to the dance play a bigger role
than just the number of years one has danced tango.
I suspect that level placement in tango will always present major problems
for organizers, instructors and other dancers. I recommend that instructors
do not stoop to the lowest level dancer in a class especially where it is
obvious that that person belongs in a lower classification. Don
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 20:27:12 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Beginner to Intermediate
Dlpens@aol.com wrote:
> Concerning the recently concluded Chicago Tango Fest, I have one correction
> and some additional comments on the classes. During Fernanda and Guillermo's
> "Turbo Gancho in Giros" class, a friend of mine in the class asked the
> instructors to explain "Turbo Ganchos" early in the class. Guillermo looked at
> him, puzzled at the request. My friend showed him the schedule whereupon
> Guillermo laughed out loud- it was a misprint. The class was about "Turns and
> Ganchos in Giros". Many of us avoided that class like the plague figuring that
> the class would be about high speed, fast moving ganchos.
That's hilarious.
> So the laugh was
> on us as Guillermo and Fernando are wonderful and very popular instructors.
>
Agreed, they are excellent teachers and nice people as well.
> In point of fact, Javier and Andrea did change the subject of a class after
> only a few minutes. The class contained some fine instructors but somehow
> Javier felt that the entire class needed to concentrate on walking. One
> instructor, known for his walking and teaching, had no problem with having
> walking exercises but did not count on 1 1/2 hours of walking. Others walked
> out of the class deeply disturbed by Javier's prognosis.
>
Well, I didn't say Javier was a nice guy. But judging by
what I saw, I'd agree at least in part with his assessment:
basic walking and embrace skills were not present in
over half the people there. That class may have received
an extra concentration of those. There's just something
about Ganchos and Boleos that draws such people.
> In another "advanced" class, the instructor had to take time out of the
> class to go over an ocho with one student.
>
Several times, I had the experience that I could perform a
lot of material with women dancing at a high level, but later
I would dance with one of the women sitting down for more
practice, and then nothing worked. And, of course, I was to
blame. ;)
> In my opinion, when left to the dancer to place him or her self in a
> beginner, intermediate or advanced class, the majority will select a higher level
> then they should have considered. Never was this more evident than in the
> first extensive tango course my wife and I took in 1998 in Montreal. On the
> first day, the organizers, Daniel Trenner with Rebecca Shulman, asked everyone
> to select beginner, intermediate or advanced level. One dancer I know placed
> himself in the advanced level. In fact, he had no concept of the basics and
> in the end, he upset the organizers as well as his class mates.
Someone told me a story of going to CITA and encountering
a beginner woman who enrolled in all the advanced classes
because, "... that way I can dance with all advanced dancers
and I can improve faster!"
> They tried a
> subtle approach to cause him to move into the beginner level and eventually
> he was asked to leave that level altogether.
I try to avoid intermediate and advanced classes. That has
made all the difference for me.
> The organizer in Chicago tried to use "number of years dancing tango" as a
> criteria for level placement. I pointed out to him that this was not the
> criteria to use. Using the "years of dancing" criteria some local dancers with
> 10+ years of experience would have been placed in the advanced level despite
> the fact that they never progressed out of the basic beginner level.
Probably you need a functional definition of the level. As
in Beginners do nothing well, Advanced Beginners can walk
in the embrace, with the music, do the cruzada, back and
front ochos, and a simple left hand turn of some kind, etc.
> On the
> other hand, one world class local dancer, teacher, international performer
> with only 4 1/2 years of tango experience would barely have made it into the
> advanced level. Natural talent and dedication to the dance play a bigger role
> than just the number of years one has danced tango.
>
I'm guessing that you are referring to Somer Surgit. Yeah,
he's excellent. A nuevo guy, but not a member of the baggy
pants brigade, he actually moves with some grace.
> I suspect that level placement in tango will always present major problems
> for organizers, instructors and other dancers. I recommend that instructors
> do not stoop to the lowest level dancer in a class especially where it is
> obvious that that person belongs in a lower classification.
>
I would suggest that organizers go further and empower
instructors to boot people over their heads into a lower
level class.
Christopher
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 00:12:18 -0600
From: "Brian Dunn" <brian@danceoftheheart.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Beginner to Intermediate
To: "'Christopher L. Everett'" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Dear list:
Christopher L. Everett wrote:
>>>
Someone told me a story of going to CITA and encountering
a beginner woman who enrolled in all the advanced classes
because, "... that way I can dance with all advanced dancers
and I can improve faster!"
<<<<
Damn, Christopher, you got my story out before I could!! ;>...but let me
flesh out a few details and a denoument.
The incident was a searing example of the flaws of self-ranking, made worse
by the brazenly enthusiastic cheeriness with which the follower in question
recounted to me the cleverness of her strategy.
At CITA 2003, students signed up for classes on the web, and were eligible
to sign up on a ranked schedule based on the date of their tuition payment.
Signups were first-come-first-served for those eligible at any given time.
When our three-couple group paid, all the men got in the advanced classes
that they wanted. But only one of the women got in, because all the
follower slots were filled with early-bird followers. So the followers in
our group made do with classes other than the ones their partners were in.
As it turned out, a woman staying at our hotel was in the salon-style
advanced classes with me. When I rotated to her, I discovered she didn't
know the code of the turn.
At breakfast the next day, I spoke with her about the classes we had taken
the day before. I asked her a general background question about how long
she'd been dancing. When she said "three weeks", my expression must have
reflected my surprise, because she eagerly shared with me in a tone of
delighted self-satisfaction the quote Christopher used above. This tone
continued as she said,"Oh, I know the guys in the class are probably upset
to have to dance with me, but I don't care (BIG smile here) - it'll still be
good for my dancing!"
So the followers in our group, some of whom were professional dancers, got
to contemplate her good fortune and cleverness over breakfast with her for a
week.
But this story ends happily in a way. (And in fairness, for all I know, CITA
has worked out some of the kinks in the last four years...).
OUR happy ending arrived a week later, when our group commenced an
absolutely magnificent week-long workshop given by Gustavo Naveira and
Giselle Anne. Our group signed up for this seminario because Deb and I had
busted our butts in an advanced workshop with Gustavo in 1999 organized by
Daniel Trenner. The saving grace of this 2003 workshop was also featured in
the buttkicker in 1999: bring your own partner, with whom "you will be
working more than 75% of the time".
Daniel had said that he and Gustavo had worked out between them the idea of
being with your partner, because if people were way over their heads with
the material, at least partners would be able to comfort each other in their
misery without inflicting their lack of preparation on others in the group.
As a result, as students we no longer take advanced classes where rotation
is required. As teachers or organizers, we require couples to sign up
together in classes we define as advanced, and then offer them the option of
choosing to rotate if they want with people they think are at their level.
(In the Intensivos we offer in Buenos Aires with Luciana Valle, almost all
students opt to dance exclusively with the staff, which renders the issue
more or less moot).
By requiring people to find partners themselves, we may lose some students
in those classes as a result, but it's more than worth it. And frankly, in
most communities, requiring people to pair up for at least a workshop
creates a useful reality-based dynamic around the whole question of
"beginner", "intermediate" and "advanced" levels. After all (just like in
the old days in Buenos Aires), you can't fake out the people who dance with
you every week.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 11:24:41 +0000 (GMT)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Beginner to Intermediate
To: brian@danceoftheheart.com, "Christopher L. Everett"
<ceverett@ceverett.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Ciao Brian / List,
Yes, I've experienced the same problem at CITA. I remember a few years ago I changed partners only to be stuck with a real numptie. The woman was (and she admitted it) a beginner! This was an 'advanced' class! A year or so later, a similar situation occurred when 'Masterclasses' and 'Professional Classes' were introduced. There were people enrolled for these levels who hardly knew the basics! It was awful to be stuck with one.
It's a difficult one to sort out as there are pros and cons either way. If you have to turn up with a pre-arranged partner as in the Gustavo week-long seminar (I've taken his seminars on two occasions - past two years), then invariably if you don't have someone you know, it's pot-luck in both who and what *actual* level of partner you'll get if you advertise for someone.
As far as CITA is concerned, it's a difficult situation. It's a big and costly event and so the costs have to be covered. This is a real consideration. Therefore, to have a pre-arranged partner may well effect a loss of income for the event and perhaps stop the thing taking place in the future. However, on changing partners in a class, an advanced dancer may well end up stuck with a numptie (as I was on numerous occasions - see above). Trouble also is that sometimes a teacher will call for a change of partners but forget to do so again! Thus, a person may be in real trouble not being able to change from the bag of potatoes he/she may have become landed with on the first change.
The other thing is that these useless wonders are often the vocal ones who constantly complain that you're doing it wrong, and when the teacher comes around it is they (the useless entities) that are corrected while you get a pat on the back! It's GREAT when this happens. Generally, though, if I'm stuck with someone who's a nice and friendly person, I'll try and continue with them and see what happens (I NEVER correct them myself). If, however, they've just arrived from the denizens of hell, or they have b.o. or something.... then I'll make a hasty getaway!
Best regards
Dani
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 15:00:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Beginner to Intermediate
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Ciao Brian / List,
Yes, I've experienced the same problem at CITA. I remember a few years ago I changed partners only to be stuck with a real numptie. The woman was (and she admitted it) a beginner! This was an 'advanced' class! A year or so later, a similar situation occurred when 'Masterclasses' and 'Professional Classes' were introduced. There were people enrolled for these levels who hardly knew the basics! It was awful to be stuck with one.
It's a difficult one to sort out as there are pros and cons either way. If you have to turn up with a pre-arranged partner as in the Gustavo week-long seminar (I've taken his seminars on two occasions - past two years), then invariably if you don't have someone you know, it's pot-luck in both who and what *actual* level of partner you'll get if you advertise for someone.
As far as CITA is concerned, it's a difficult situation. It's a big and costly event and so the costs have to be covered. This is a real consideration. Therefore, to have a pre-arranged partner may well effect a loss of income for the event and perhaps stop the thing taking place in the future. However, on changing partners in a class, an advanced dancer may well end up stuck with a numptie (as I was on numerous occasions - see above). Trouble also is that sometimes a teacher will call for a change of partners but forget to do so again! Thus, a person may be in real trouble not being able to change from the bag of potatoes he/she may have become landed with on the first change.
The other thing is that these useless wonders are often the vocal ones who constantly complain that you're doing it wrong, and when the teacher comes around it is they (the useless entities) that are corrected while you get a pat on the back! It's GREAT when this happens. Generally, though, if I'm stuck with someone who's a nice and friendly person, I'll try and continue with them and see what happens (I NEVER correct them myself). If, however, they've just arrived from the denizens of hell, or they have b.o. or something.... then I'll make a hasty getaway!
Best regards
Dani
https://www.tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
