1808  beginners tango teaching

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:33:42 -0400
From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: beginners tango teaching

I think the following should be taught, to both men and women:

Basic concepts of following (stay in front of his chest, when he leads a
step put your weight on it, don't just point your foot towards that area, if
he leads you forward take a step forward even if you think you might kick
him but try not to actually kick him, and if he does not lead you to move
DON'T move)
Walking in time to the musi, using both Crossed Feet and Parallel feet.
Walking backwards in time to the musi using both Crossed and parallel.
open vs closed steps.
Stopping in time with the movement.
How and when to do a cross.
How to do both a backwards and a forward ocho
How to lead both a backwards and a forward ocho
How to do a grape vine.
Beginings of balance, posture, embelisshments.
All the basic terms such as boleo, lapiz, giro/turn, sacada, even if they
are not ready to do them.
A bit of the culture/history

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:50:01 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: beginners tango teaching

> I think the following should be taught, to both men and women:
>
> Beginings of balance, posture, embelisshments.

I think, the embellishments had better be left out. With most beginner
women, it is a great achievement, to get them to just stop moving when the
man is not doing anything. you don't want her to fill that break with
uncalled for boleos and stuff.
Besides, the many unlead, uninvited embellishments, that women like to do,
when they have first learned them, really do not look very decorative, but
more like disruptive solo-elements.
By the way, I have a question: I was forced to act as a leader in a small
practica I was invited to in Berlin, and was taught to lead for a couple of
hours. All went well, except for the ochos: the same thing happened again
like last time I tried it in Tokyo- as soon as I give the woman a little
push, she starts off ochoing on autopilot, one ocho after another, like a
clockwork kicking in, even though she had waited for my lead on all other
steps. Why do women do that?

> All the basic terms such as boleo, lapiz, giro/turn, sacada, even if they
> are not ready to do them.

What would be the purpose of that?

> A bit of the culture/history

Yes, that would be a nice thing, that is usually sadly left out. I wonder
why there is so little interest and so little motivation by teachers to
teach that? Only Gloria and Eduardo did that. The rest of the teachers I saw
will only make occasional hints, presenting BsAs like the great Mecca of
tango, where everything some tangueros like to do is like some spiritual
truth for us all, which cannot be proved otherwise...We all know the "In
BsAs milongas people never do this/always do that" statements, though many
of these things seems to differ from one milonga to another.

>

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:23:18 +0200
From: Eero Olli <eero.olli@ISP.UIB.NO>
Subject: Re: beginners tango teaching

At 09:00 17.09.2003, you wrote:

>All the basic terms such as boleo, lapiz, giro/turn, sacada, even if they
>are not ready to do them.

You do not write how LONG your beginners classes are. In my view these
topics belong to the training repertoar of intermediate dancers, not beginners.

I disagree about teaching topics to people who are not ready for them ( One
can of course 'pretend' that one is doing a boleo, and stand stiff and make
a small kick with the leg... but that is only going to lead to bad habits
that are difficult to get rid of. However, the beginners probaby feel
proud about it, and they think that they have a great teacher. But I think
that teachers should refrain from teaching topics that are impossible to
perform at the students level. It will make the students feel that tango
is difficult, while it actually is easy if one keeps right focus in the
classes. (Obviously, one can do extremely difficult things, but that is not
the core of tango)

Some people argue that a follower should be able to recognize all different
leads. I disagree. All leaders should notice what the follower is able to
handle, and keep the dance within those boundaries. Doing boloes with a
beginner, is only going to make the follower look bad and thus reflect bad
upon me as a leader too.

If the follower has been taught to follow the weight and chest, she does
not need to learn any 'tricks' because she can respond to almost
everything, when lead properly, without previous knowledge. However, her
response will be different from one who has a longer experience. A boleo is
just a change of direction, and any beginner will recognize the change of
direction, however, they will not be able to make a boleo out of it.

Boleos require
- the woman to stand in her axis in perfect balance with a 'loose' foot.
- both should be able to distinguish between linear and circular systems of
lead. (many do without recognizing the difference)
- the man must be able to recognize the exact position of the womans axis.
and he must be able to execute a change of direction presicely around this
axis.
- the woman must be able to disassosiate between her her upperbody and her
hip while responding to a change of direction.
- Both must remain soft for the whole boleo, which requires high precision.
- Both should have enough balance to be able to choose/change the direction
of exit.

There are huge differences when people are ready to do proper boleos. But
in general I would say it happens between 2 and 4 years of weekly
dansing/training. I have though met one amazing natural talent who kind of
mastered a boleo only after 2 months of training (and men in general
assumed that she had then been dansing for 4 years) so there are no rules...

happy dansing,
eero @ bergentango.no

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:30:30 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: beginners tango teaching

Eero wrote:

> I disagree about teaching topics to people who are not ready for them

> If the follower has been taught to follow the weight and chest, she does
> not need to learn any 'tricks' because she can respond to almost
> everything, when lead properly, without previous knowledge. However, her
> response will be different from one who has a longer experience.

My first teacher, Ezequiel Farfaro, taught me to follow the weight and the
chest. He never said:"Now we are going to do the XY step", and when, after I
had read a bit about steps, I asked him one day, whether what we were doing
was the XY step, he replied:"I will not tell you. If I say, that this is
such and such step, it will just make you start thinking, and you will stop
following me the way you do."
His teaching goal was to get me to stop thinking completely while I was
dancing with him, and just feel his lead.
I don't know whether this is the reason for my bad memory for steps, but it
took me years to fully remember any step combinations, as my mind would tend
to go blank when I watched some teacher demonstrating steps in class (a
learned response?), and I would rely on the men to memorise the step
combination and then lead me through it. I knew I could follow, even if I
did not have a clue what we were doing, as long as the man knew... It has
worked.

Astrid

P.S.
I was never taught boleos as a beginner, and had no idea how they worked.
One day, after a year, an unknown man led me into one, and I found myself
doing it. It caught me by surprise. After I got a lot of practise, my boleos
slowed down considerably, I not just followed the initial lead, responding
with my leg whipping around, but the whole lead all the way through, at
whatever speed was wanted..

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:27:08 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Beginners tango teaching

Asking for a basic tango syllabus for beginners , reminds me of the case of the Ph.D. John Abernethy (1764-1831), when asked by a passer by at the street for an advice regarding his unstable health .Abernethy said " I recommend you to visit a doctor ":)

What to teach depends on what is the purpose of the lessons . A six week term seems to be an approach to Tango dancing . Once a week?? Twice a week ?? Lessons ?? Lessons and afterwards a practica ?? Tango only ?? Tango and milonga ?? Tango ,milonga & valsecito??

If the purpose of the teaching, as one person in this list commented once upon a time,is to move people to dance tango at the local milongas, then it seems it will be necessary to have at this syllabus subjects as

1) body posture, embrace, walking with the music, following a line of dance , axis , pivot
2) walking in pairs with the music following a line of dance, change of movement , always following the line of dance , detentions .
3) forward eights, backward eights , combined with pivot in one foot, exercises of forward and backward eights alone, against the wall.
4) giros , sanguichito
5) free dance at the end of each lesson
6) visit of the beginners to a milonga of local community , to socialize

There is not too much time left within six weeks .Not many different steps for beginners may be taught ,they would get confused. I think it will be better to have them feeling how to walk with the music , the refinements of steps and embellishments could came later. If the man /woman, do not know when to stop or when to lead/follow, how she/he could be able to know how to make a step ??

warm regards
alberto gesualdi
buenos aires



Usuario: yahoo; contraseqa: yahoo
Desde Buenos Aires: 4004-1010
Mas ciudades: clic aqum.

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:17:35 -0700
From: JC Dill <tango@VO.CNCHOST.COM>
Subject: Re: beginners tango teaching

At 02:33 PM 9/16/2003, A Coleman wrote:

>I think the following should be taught, to both men and women:
>
>Basic concepts of following ... when he leads a
>step put your weight on it, don't just point your foot towards that area,

If the leader gives a lead that doesn't put the follower's weight over the
foot after stepping, then the follower should do what was led. Leaders
need followers who do what is led, not what they were "taught" to do, or
else they don't learn how to lead. Followers will naturally put their
weight on the foot if the body is led to move over the foot. There is no
need to be told or taught to do this.

IMHO, teaching followers to "do" this instead of teaching leaders how to
lead is one of the main reason so many followers do an automatic
cross. They are taught to "do" the cross instead of learning how to be led
to cross. Leaders are taught to expect the follower to just "cross" (and
to change her weight in the cross) rather than taught how to lead a cross
and how to lead her to *change weight* into the crossed leg while
crossing. Teach beginners to lead and follow this simple move and you give
them a huge building block that will be used 1001 times in other moves as
they move on with their tango.

jc

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:11:46 -0400
From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: beginners tango teaching

While I agree that embellishments should generally be left out, it is a good
idea to teach at least one, partly so that they know:

1) It is "allowed" to do it on the dance floor so don't get all panicky.

2) When it is a good time to do it - the guy is not just standing waiting
for nothing.

3) NOT to do it when they are trying to learn something new.

I agree that beginner women tend to go into auto-pilot when doing ochos. I
do not know why.

>> All the basic terms such as boleo, lapiz, giro/turn, sacada, even if
they
>> are not ready to do them.

>What would be the purpose of that?

1) So that when they want to take a class on that hook thing they can look
for it in the description, instead of confusing the teachers.
2) I spent 4 years not knowing what a giro was because no one ever used the
term. I always felt embarrassed to ask after the first year. If you want
to be a tango dancer, you should know the basic terminology BEFORE you learn
how to do them right.

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:08:27 -0700
From: Ilona Koren-Deutsch <ilonakd@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: beginners tango teaching

>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:23:18 +0200
>From: Eero Olli <eero.olli@ISP.UIB.NO>
>

Someone Eero didn't quote wrote:

>>All the basic terms such as boleo, lapiz, giro/turn, sacada, even if they
>>are not ready to do them.
>

Eero:

>In my view these
>topics belong to the training repertoar of intermediate dancers, not
>beginners.
>
>I disagree about teaching topics to people who are not ready for them

Didn't the first person say teaching the *terms* not the "topics" or
the steps. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the point was just
to let the students know what the words mean, not to teach the steps.
I think it's a good idea to expose people to vocabulary they're going
to be hearing in the future, or, at a minimum, certainly can't do any
harm.

-Ilona

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:09:57 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: beginners tango teaching- "What's in a name"

> >> All the basic terms such as boleo, lapiz, giro/turn, sacada, even if
> they
> >> are not ready to do them.
>

Astrid asked:What would be the purpose of that?

> 1) So that when they want to take a class on that hook thing they can look
> for it in the description, instead of confusing the teachers.
> 2) I spent 4 years not knowing what a giro was because no one ever used

the

> term. I always felt embarrassed to ask after the first year. If you want
> to be a tango dancer, you should know the basic terminology BEFORE you

learn

> how to do them right.
>

Apparently your studio gives you a list of steps they are going to teach in
each course. All the courses I have been to only had names like "beginner's
level", intermediate level", "advanced" and such. Maybe "women's technique",
"tango orillero", if I got lucky, with a very good teacher. IMO this is
basically enough, since people should not be encouraged in getting the idea
that tango is all about steps. It isn't. Just because you can do "the hook
thing", this does not automatically make you an intermediate dancer. You
have to be an intermediate dancer, in order to get "the hook thing" right...
Problem is, that even with listing levels, people tend to take all the wrong
classes. Somehow, exactly those people who have trouble recognizing their
own level, when they feel bored or exasperated with an all too "tedious"
class, tend to react with "let me try the next level higher up". This not
only slows down their own learning, but also causes trouble for everyone
else in that class.
The other thing about names: once you start to study them, you will find,
that there is a confusing disarray in the terminology. What is a "cross" to
one teacher, is a "traspie" to another, or, in the worst scenario, "Number
5", and you don't dare to admit that you don't even know what "Number 3" is,
although you claim to have 8 months of experience in tango, so you cannot
ask and find out...
. While one teacher calls all of them "boleos", another divides them into
"boleos" and "amagues". There are even some teachers/students who will call
an "amague", a.k.a. "boleo", a "gancho", since it is like "the hook thing"
done the other way round. Then there are those who have translated all the
steps' names into their own language, so a "giro enrosque" becomes "the
great screw with a wiper", while yet somebody else will abbreviate the whole
thing into calling it a "lapiz" (the wiper only, or- a pencil) or an
"enrosque" (the screw only). Then there are the Japanese who picked up some
Spanish by listening only, and everybody in that school calls it a "hira",
and you have to guess what they mean. Fabian Salas once complained that his
students ended up calling it "the pizza step".
I personally am still not sure what exactly is meant by "a change of
direction step"on the list, but I suspect that it may be the same as "cambio
de frente" (a changing of the front side, if you translate it).
I know one teacher who had a lot of intermediate students who transferred
from other schools, and for a while, his walls were plastered with signs
listing Spanish names in pairs, so people got familiar with how he
personally tended to call those same things. But not everyone does you that
favour.
Then there was the teacher who is the author of that famous quote:"There are
only four steps in tango- to the front, to the back, to the left and to the
right". He is only 80% accurate, but he is rather close to my idea of how to
dance tango, as a "blind follower"...

In Sevilla I met a tango teacher, an Argentine lady, who offered to have me
participate in her advanced class. She said:"I teach balance, connection and
how to lead and follow". That sounded rather attractive to me as class
content, even though it was not quite clear to me why this was taught only
to advanced students. Maybe because they finally, after learning a bunch of
steps, realise that this is what counts?

Good luck with finding a good teacher
Astrid

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:46:05 +0200
From: Eero Olli <eero.olli@ISP.UIB.NO>
Subject: Re: beginners tango teaching

At 09:00 19.09.2003, Ilona Koren-Deutsch <ilonakd@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>Someone Eero didn't quote wrote:
> >>All the basic terms such as boleo, lapiz, giro/turn, sacada, even if they
> >>are not ready to do them.
> >
>Eero:
> >In my view these
> >topics belong to the training repertoar of intermediate dancers, not
> >beginners.
> >
> >I disagree about teaching topics to people who are not ready for them
>
>Didn't the first person say teaching the *terms* not the "topics" or
>the steps. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the point was just
>to let the students know what the words mean, not to teach the steps.

Ilona, you are absolutely right. Also others have pointed this out. I did
not pick up the distinction between 'term' and 'topic'. I am sorry if I
have confused a otherwise clear topic. Obviously, it is proper to give the
students some vocabulary.

best,
eero

Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 00:03:46 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: beginners tango teaching

Astrid asked a while ago:

"By the way, I have a question: I was forced to act as a leader in a small
practica I was invited to in Berlin, and was taught to lead for a couple of
hours. All went well, except for the ochos: the same thing happened again
like last time I tried it in Tokyo- as soon as I give the woman a little
push, she starts off ochoing on autopilot, one ocho after another, like a
clockwork kicking in, even though she had waited for my lead on all other
steps. Why do women do that?"

No answer was given at the time so here is what I think:

Beginner followers do that because they are taught the mechanics of back
ochos without their leaders. Occasioanlly with the wall as a partner. They
often practice static back ochos without partner. Therefore they forget (or
do not learn from the very beginning) that they need to wait for the lead.

Once I show the mechanics of the step in my class I have to remind the
followeres that back ochos are led like any other step. And then... remind
it couple times more.


Cheers, Oleh K.

https://TangoSpring.com

Take advantage of our limited-time introductory offer for dial-up Internet

Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 17:32:12 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: beginners tango teaching

Gary wrote:
"That is where the "sudden lead change" and "death grip leader" comes it. "

"Death grip" sounds too morbid. I simply wisper in her ear: "Do not rush"
and change the amplitude of my back ocho lead a bit. They usually
understand.


Cheers, Oleh K.

https://TangoSpring.com

>From: Gary Fay <gtf_ctim@YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: gtf_ctim@yahoo.com
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] TANGO-L Digest - 23 Dec 2003 to 24 Dec 2003
>(#2003-340)
>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 03:22:47 -0800
>
>--- Automatic digest processor
> > Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 00:03:46 +0000
> > From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
> > Subject: Re: beginners tango teaching
> >
> > Astrid asked a while ago:
> >
> > "By the way, I have a question: I was forced to act
> > as a leader in a small
> > practica I was invited to in Berlin, and was taught
> > to lead for a couple of
> > hours. All went well, except for the ochos: the same
> > thing happened again
> > like last time I tried it in Tokyo- as soon as I
> > give the woman a little
> > push, she starts off ochoing on autopilot, one ocho
> > after another, like a
> > clockwork kicking in, even though she had waited for
> > my lead on all other
> > steps. Why do women do that?"
> >
> > No answer was given at the time so here is what I
> > think:
> >
> > Beginner followers do that because they are taught
> > the mechanics of back
> > ochos without their leaders. Occasioanlly with the
> > wall as a partner. They
> > often practice static back ochos without partner.
> > Therefore they forget (or
> > do not learn from the very beginning) that they need
> > to wait for the lead.
> >
> > Once I show the mechanics of the step in my class I
> > have to remind the
> > followeres that back ochos are led like any other
> > step. And then... remind
> > it couple times more.
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Oleh K.
> >
> > https://TangoSpring.com
>
>
>That is where the "sudden lead change" and "death grip
>leader" comes it. Shock the follower a few times with
>a change up or don't let her move until ready. It will
>become painfully obvious that following is expected.
>As one dance instructor I had in the country and
>western scene descibed it. "Positive and negative feed
>back, if it hurts, don't do that or don't leave the
>foot there. If it didn't hurt, well it may not be
>right, but at least it didn't hurt!"
>
>Gary
>

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Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 11:19:42 -0500
From: Anna Karabatsos <annmeyer@MED.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: tango teaching

This is my first time writing in, but the discussion about teacher-student relationships inspired me to write about a recent occurrence that I was=
n't sure how to handle. I was at a milonga during a festival and one of the instructors asked me to dance. I always get a little nervous dancing =
with teachers, though less so with our local ones with whom I have had many more dances. This teacher was from out of town and from almost the fi=
rst step he began giving me feedback, telling me what I should change, to relax, etc. A couple of things came up for me. First, the more someone =
tells me to relax, the less relaxed I am. And second, I was offended that the he was teaching me at a milonga. While I am fully aware that I hav=
e many areas to work on in my dancing, I need the "down time" of a milonga, to just dance and not think. My question is, how do I tell this teach=
er that he shouldn't be teaching on the floor at a milonga, even if it is just suggestions whispered in my ear througout the dance?

Thanks

Anna



Electronic Mail is not secure, may not be read every day, and should not be used for urgent or sensitive issues.

Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 11:11:37 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@JQHOME.NET>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

Anna Karabatsos wrote:

>This is my first time writing in, but the discussion about teacher-student relationships inspired me to write about a recent occurrence that I wa=

sn't sure how to handle. I was at a milonga during a festival and one of the instructors asked me to dance. I always get a little nervous dancing=
with teachers, though less so with our local ones with whom I have had many more dances. This teacher was from out of town and from almost the f=
irst step he began giving me feedback, telling me what I should change, to relax, etc. A couple of things came up for me. First, the more someone=
tells me to relax, the less relaxed I am. And second, I was offended that the he was teaching me at a milonga. While I am fully aware that I ha=
ve many areas to work on in my dancing, I need the "down time" of a milonga, to just dance and not think. My question is, how do I tell this teac=
her that he shouldn't be teaching on the floor at a milonga, even if it is just suggestions whispered in my ear througout the dance?

>
>Thanks
>
>Anna
>
>

I don't teach tango, being a novice, but I have run into this before
while dancing. My suggestion would be to stop flat, ask them to step
over to the side and try to make them give you a lesson. This puts them
on the spot and makes it clear on the one hand that they are not dancing
but instructing (oh, hey I'll take all the free lessons they want to
give, which is usually darned few :o>) and on the other puts them
squarely in the spotlight which is what they want. It also lets you
disengage at the end of the piece if not before so you aren't stuck in
the whole tanda with them. Don't let them mix and match dancing with
instruction because they might actually believe they are dancing.

$.02

-- jeff

Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 15:23:28 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

Anna,

I appreciate your candor in sharing your experience. It's impossible to
judge somebody's actions without more intimate knowledge of the particular
situation, but as a teacher I do have an opinion to share with you and
others. Most probably, this teacher was honestly trying to help you. Maybe
his judgement in this case was not so good, but perhaps he got some signal
or message from you that you would welcome such input. Of course, it seems
that he was mistaken and all his help was not useful to you.

I will say that some teachers will often use these tactics to either try to
take away other teachers pupils or to influence the student to take private
lessons or more lessons, etc. In your particular case, I don't think that
the out of town teacher had anything to gain by his actions so I would give
him the benefit of the doubt. There are probably also the cases in which a
teacher will correct and advise a partner during a dance to show off their
knowledge or to intimidate or gain an upper hand over the other person. I'd
like to think that this is not a very common occurrence and that these
"teachers" are not acting consciously to to this.

I have asked my students to relax and given them input and suggestions
during my classes, but I would be very reluctant to do anything like that
during a milonga and worse yet with someone who was not my student... If
you don't want or like this "instruction", one way to alleviate the
situation would be to only dance with this person one dance and quit. If you
are comfortable with it, you can also just tell him (or her) that you don't
want any input or instruction during the milonga, that you just want to
enjoy dancing and prefer the instruction during class....

Manuel

visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com

>From: Anna Karabatsos <annmeyer@MED.UMICH.EDU>

>
>This is my first time writing in, but the discussion about teacher-student
>relationships inspired me to write about a recent occurrence that I wasn't
>sure how to handle. I was at a milonga during a festival and one of the
>instructors asked me to dance. I always get a little nervous dancing with
>teachers, though less so with our local ones with whom I have had many more
>dances. This teacher was from out of town and from almost the first step
>he began giving me feedback, telling me what I should change, to relax,
>etc. A couple of things came up for me. First, the more someone tells me
>to relax, the less relaxed I am. And second, I was offended that the he
>was teaching me at a milonga. While I am fully aware that I have many
>areas to work on in my dancing, I need the "down time" of a milonga, to
>just dance and not think. My question is, how do I tell this teacher that
>he shouldn't be teaching on the floor at a milonga, even if it is just
>suggestions whispered in my ear througout the dance?
>
>Thanks
>
>Anna
>
>
>
>Electronic Mail is not secure, may not be read every day, and should not be
>used for urgent or sensitive issues.
>

Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 09:07:39 -1200
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

Anna wrote:

I always get a little nervous dancing with teachers. This
teacher ...began giving me feedback. The more someone tells
me to relax, the less relaxed I am. And second, I was
offended that the he was teaching me at a milonga. My
question is, how do I tell this teacher that he shouldn't
be teaching on the floor at a milonga, even if it is just
suggestions whispered in my ear througout the dance?

Anna:
We've never danced so I can't comment about your dancing.
However, I've danced with a number of stiff women,
especially in their right arm. They are pushing so hard with
their arm, they are throwing me off the alignment. It's very
difficult, bordering on impossible to lead. My choices are
1) just get through the dance, 2)put her arm on my shoulder
so she can push as much as she wants without affecting the
alignment, 3) push her arm straight down to maintain the
alignment or 4) tell her to relax. I don't consider this
teaching because I'm not describing a figure. The follower
usually experiences difficulty, such as inability to cross
because she can't move her to her right because her stiff
right arm is blocking her.

IMHO, the teacher recognized your potential and desire to
dance well and just wanted to help you along.

Michael
Washington, DC
New York tango festival begins July 27

Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 16:12:49 -0500
From: Jak Karako <jak@BAILATANGO.COM>
Subject: tango teaching

You can tell him that you are trying to focus on listening to the music or understanding the lyrics, and hope that he doesn't try to translate them for you.

This is a hard one. If he doesn't know better than not teaching you at the milonga, I don't think there is a good way to ask him to stop giving you feedback, for most students prefer such feedback and don't get any, without risking not dancing with him again. One can even question his professionalism, regardless of the quality of the instruction.

Enjoy the free lesson or avoid dancing with him. :)

Jak
www.BailaTango.com

>
>>From: Anna Karabatsos <annmeyer@MED.UMICH.EDU>
>
>>
>>This is my first time writing in, but the discussion about teacher-student
>>relationships inspired me to write about a recent occurrence that I wasn't
>>sure how to handle. I was at a milonga during a festival and one of the
>>instructors asked me to dance. I always get a little nervous dancing with
>>teachers, though less so with our local ones with whom I have had many more
>>dances. This teacher was from out of town and from almost the first step
>>he began giving me feedback, telling me what I should change, to relax,
>>etc. A couple of things came up for me. First, the more someone tells me
>>to relax, the less relaxed I am. And second, I was offended that the he
>>was teaching me at a milonga. While I am fully aware that I have many
>>areas to work on in my dancing, I need the "down time" of a milonga, to
>>just dance and not think. My question is, how do I tell this teacher that
>>he shouldn't be teaching on the floor at a milonga, even if it is just
>>suggestions whispered in my ear througout the dance?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Anna
>>
>>
>>
>>Electronic Mail is not secure, may not be read every day, and should not be
>>used for urgent or sensitive issues.
>>
>

--
Jak
917 575 1798
www.BailaTango.com/ny/

Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 21:58:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

Jak Karako <jak@BAILATANGO.COM> :

> You can tell him that you are trying to focus on listening to the music
> or understanding the lyrics

Don't forget to tell him also why you are on the floor rather than in your seat where you
can more easily avoid the distraction of dancing! ;)

Chris

-------- Original Message --------

*Subject:* [TANGO-L] tango teaching
*From:* Jak Karako <jak@BAILATANGO.COM>
*To:* TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
*Date:* Mon, 6 Mar 2006 16:12:49 -0500

You can tell him that you are trying to focus on listening to the music or understanding the lyrics, and hope that he doesn't try to translate them for you.

This is a hard one. If he doesn't know better than not teaching you at the milonga, I don't think there is a good way to ask him to stop giving you feedback, for most students prefer such feedback and don't get any, without risking not dancing with him again. One can even question his professionalism, regardless of the quality of the instruction.

Enjoy the free lesson or avoid dancing with him. :)

Jak
www.BailaTango.com

>
>>From: Anna Karabatsos <annmeyer@MED.UMICH.EDU>
>
>>
>>This is my first time writing in, but the discussion about teacher-student
>>relationships inspired me to write about a recent occurrence that I wasn't
>>sure how to handle. I was at a milonga during a festival and one of the
>>instructors asked me to dance. I always get a little nervous dancing with
>>teachers, though less so with our local ones with whom I have had many more
>>dances. This teacher was from out of town and from almost the first step
>>he began giving me feedback, telling me what I should change, to relax,
>>etc. A couple of things came up for me. First, the more someone tells me
>>to relax, the less relaxed I am. And second, I was offended that the he
>>was teaching me at a milonga. While I am fully aware that I have many
>>areas to work on in my dancing, I need the "down time" of a milonga, to
>>just dance and not think. My question is, how do I tell this teacher that
>>he shouldn't be teaching on the floor at a milonga, even if it is just
>>suggestions whispered in my ear througout the dance?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Anna
>>
>>
>>
>>Electronic Mail is not secure, may not be read every day, and should not be
>>used for urgent or sensitive issues.
>>
>

--
Jak
917 575 1798
www.BailaTango.com/ny/

Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 23:10:37 +0100
From: Aron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

Dear Anna,

I had the very same thoughts as Michael and Manuel wrote about, with some
additions:

The teacher is also there to enjoy the milonga. Maybe he felt uncomfortable
and did his best to save the situation: the alternatives would be to leave
you there and then; suffer silently... The previous solution is bad for you
and bad for his reputation (maybe also his conscience, if he is a dedicated
teacher), the latter is maybe too much to ask from him.

You can also decide if you don't like something about your partners
behaviour. Actually, you have the same options: 1) say goodbye 2) tell him
that he is not helping 3) suffer silently... It is a 50-50 thing: you are
both adults with a freedom to choose course of action and partners.

Most novices think that a teacher should be prepared for everything (solve
every problem), should do everything right himself, and know how to act in
any situation the novice can get into. In other words, omnipotent and
omniscient...which is just a little farther away from being a god. Most
teachers are just teachers: they teach tango. There are good teachers,
better teachers, brilliant teachers, master teachers (yes, there are bad
teachers as well!). Also, they are maybe better teachers than dancers. They
may get intimidated by a situation or person. They may have personality
problems (they aren't perfect!) which leads them to be less than perfect
when it comes to protocol, out-of-class communication or communication in
general. They are maybe simply narcisstic with insecurities, so they want to
show how smart they are and how novice you are (still they might be very
effective or well-known as tango teachers)... They are maybe better
_dancers_ than teachers and thus they may have no concept (or just not
willing to take note) of your lesser capabilities as a novice.

Personally, I think that any good leader should at least try to dance at a
level where the follower is able to follow. Of course it may turn out that
the follower has insecurities or just simply gets scared (happens when a
beginner has to dance with a 'teacher') and therefore the whole dance feels
bad - despite any effort (once it happened that a novice got so intimidated
by me asking her to dance, that she had problems with simple walking!)

It is also advisable to check out the style of a leader in advance, so you
know what you are up to. If he usually dances too complicated for you, it
doesn't cost you anything to tell him to keep it simple. Actually,
communicating any of your problems concerning the dancing will not hurt you:
don't expect guys to 'read between the lines'. Tell them what's wrong
compassionately. They might get hurt. But they will most likely change
things or leave you alone for good.

As for the general rule of not teaching at milongas: I'd never give advice
to a follower I feel comfortable with - not without being asked.
Nevertheless, I am not at a milonga to suffer. So if the dancing is
uncomfortable I may choose to give a tip (as an alternative to walk away
mid-tanda). If she is enjoying my company she won't mind a carefully placed
tip as she probably feels my discomfort. If she does not feel it, then me
giving her advice is a clear indication...

I guess this may sound selfish, but I think I am entitled to enjoy myself at
the milonga the same way as a woman or a 'non-teacher'. However, I am also a
dedicated teacher so even if it doesn't feel comfortable I might choose to
dance with her if she appreciates dancing with me. In this case she won't
mind some tips at all (of course tips are definitely not the same as
teaching detailed moves, technique etc.).

Cheers,
Aron


Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99

AIM: ecsedya
ICQ: 46386265
Skype: ecsedyaron
Yahoo Messenger: ecsedya
MSN Messenger: aron_ecsedy@msn.com


https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
* * * * *
https://www.milonga.hu/

Az iWiW-en megtalálhatsz - Find me at iWiW (https://www.iwiw.net/)

Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 17:11:07 -0500
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

I just tell the dancing chatterbox (whether he is trying to teach or
just talking about whatever) that I can't dance and talk at the same
time...seems to work...

Chris, UK wrote:

>Jak Karako <jak@BAILATANGO.COM> :
>
>
>
>>You can tell him that you are trying to focus on listening to the music
>>or understanding the lyrics
>>
>>
>
>Don't forget to tell him also why you are on the floor rather than in your seat where you
>can more easily avoid the distraction of dancing! ;)
>
>Chris
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>
>*Subject:* [TANGO-L] tango teaching
>*From:* Jak Karako <jak@BAILATANGO.COM>
>*To:* TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>*Date:* Mon, 6 Mar 2006 16:12:49 -0500
>
>You can tell him that you are trying to focus on listening to the music or understanding the lyrics, and hope that he doesn't try to translate them for you.
>
>This is a hard one. If he doesn't know better than not teaching you at the milonga, I don't think there is a good way to ask him to stop giving you feedback, for most students prefer such feedback and don't get any, without risking not dancing with him again. One can even question his professionalism, regardless of the quality of the instruction.
>
>Enjoy the free lesson or avoid dancing with him. :)
>
>Jak
>www.BailaTango.com
>
>
>
>
>>>From: Anna Karabatsos <annmeyer@MED.UMICH.EDU>
>>>
>>>
>>>This is my first time writing in, but the discussion about teacher-student
>>>relationships inspired me to write about a recent occurrence that I wasn't
>>>sure how to handle. I was at a milonga during a festival and one of the
>>>instructors asked me to dance. I always get a little nervous dancing with
>>>teachers, though less so with our local ones with whom I have had many more
>>>dances. This teacher was from out of town and from almost the first step
>>>he began giving me feedback, telling me what I should change, to relax,
>>>etc. A couple of things came up for me. First, the more someone tells me
>>>to relax, the less relaxed I am. And second, I was offended that the he
>>>was teaching me at a milonga. While I am fully aware that I have many
>>>areas to work on in my dancing, I need the "down time" of a milonga, to
>>>just dance and not think. My question is, how do I tell this teacher that
>>>he shouldn't be teaching on the floor at a milonga, even if it is just
>>>suggestions whispered in my ear througout the dance?
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>
>>>Anna
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Electronic Mail is not secure, may not be read every day, and should not be
>>>used for urgent or sensitive issues.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Jak
>917 575 1798
>www.BailaTango.com/ny/
>
>
>
>
>

Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 21:06:42 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

--- Anna Karabatsos <annmeyer@MED.UMICH.EDU> wrote:

My question is, how do I tell this teacher that he
shouldn't be teaching on the floor at a milonga, even
if it is just suggestions whispered in my ear
througout the dance?
<end snip>

Hi Anna,

Sean here. You received a bunch of excuses for the
guy's bad behavior, but no answers. And all the
excuses offered here are just that. Excuses. The guy
asked you to dance, not to study at his feet. His
"teaching" was totally out of line. After all, he had
already seen you dance.

This recently happened to a good friend of mine. She
had the perfect response. She left the jerk on the
floor in the middle of the song.

Sean

P.S. About that friend of mine: the next time she was
in town, that same teacher asked her to dance again.
And this time, he treated her with respect!

Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 10:48:04 +0100
From: Aron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

Hi Sean,

> Sean here. You received a bunch of excuses for the guy's bad
> behavior, but no answers. And all the excuses offered here
> are just that. Excuses. The guy asked you to dance, not to
> study at his feet. His "teaching" was totally out of line.

Giving an external point of view can help. I think Anna is not a kid who
cannot decide for herself. However, insulting the others because you are on
a different point of view is not really constructive.

Since I am in Hungary and she is somewhere else on the planet, thus I have
NO idea what level is she dancing at, what kind of teacher do we talk about
and what kind of community she is in, so I strongly believe that a "do this"
type answer is greatly irresponsible.

Following it may completely ruin her fun at one or all milongas, even just a
gossip starts about her being stuck up, or if other dancers start to embargo
her because of what the teacher says afterwards (out of spite, or because he
doesn't share your views on teaching at a milonga)... Remember: if a major
player would decide to ruin the fun of a novice, there is very little chance
for anyone to stop him (or her). And life will go on. I've seen so many
people stopping tango altogether because of how teachers handled situations,
but the teachers are still at large. Of course this is not something that
happens all the time. In many cases being strict may work. But if you
misjudge the situation, you may face gossip, spite, rejection, which is
usually too much to handle for most women who just want to dance for fun
(especially if they are novices not just to tango, but in the ways of a
small community - which here means just about 95%+ of all new dancers).

Aron

Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99

AIM: ecsedya
ICQ: 46386265
Skype: ecsedyaron
Yahoo Messenger: ecsedya
MSN Messenger: aron_ecsedy@msn.com


https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
* * * * *
https://www.milonga.hu/

Az iWiW-en megtalálhatsz - Find me at iWiW (https://www.iwiw.net/)

Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 23:53:18 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

Anna wrote:
, I need the "down time" of a milonga, to just dance and not think. My
question is, how do I tell this teacher that he shouldn't be teaching on
the floor at a milonga, even if it is just suggestions whispered in my ear
througout the dance?

This brings to mind something that has irked me for a long time:
we have several teachers and assistents at the milonga I go to. They all
come to the milongas and dance with us, also to make the gender balance a
little better. Now, hearing this at class is fine, but how do I feel when
almost every time after I have danced with one of these guys, regardless of
whether he is above or below my level of skills, when the music stops he
says:"Muy bien, Astrid !"
As though this tanda had just been a little lesson and I get praised because
I "managed" to follow him through all his steps or something.
Does this happen in other places too? Any opinions on this?
It is a small irritation, but sometimes I find it rather out of place.

Astrid

Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 04:51:49 -1200
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

>Astrid wrote:

We have several teachers..at the milonga I go to. When the
music stops he says:"Muy bien, Astrid !" As though this
tanda had just been a little lesson and
I get praised because I "managed" to follow him through all
his steps or something.

Astrid:
One woman sometimes says "good job." I just take it as a
compliment. It sounds like the teacher is paying you a
compliment but it comes off as condescending.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
New York Tango Festival in five months

Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 13:06:59 -0500
From: Tho Bui <blahx3@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

On Tue, Mar 7, 2006 at 9:51 AM, Michael wrote:

> >Astrid wrote:
> We have several teachers..at the milonga I go to. When the
> music stops he says:"Muy bien, Astrid !" As though this
> tanda had just been a little lesson and
> I get praised because I "managed" to follow him through all
> his steps or something.
> Astrid:
> One woman sometimes says "good job." I just take it as a
> compliment. It sounds like the teacher is paying you a
> compliment but it comes off as condescending.

Absolutely! Complements come in soooo many different forms.
I normally get something like, "WOW! you dance like a really, really good metallurgist!"






Tho X. Bui
https://home.earthlink.net/~blahx3/thoxbui/

Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 11:57:15 -0800
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:

>> but how do I feel when
> almost every time after I have danced with one of
> these guys, regardless of
> whether he is above or below my level of skills,
> when the music stops he
> says:"Muy bien, Astrid !"
> As though this tanda had just been a little lesson
> and I get praised because
> I "managed" to follow him through all his steps or
> something.
> Does this happen in other places too? Any opinions
> on this?

Yes, it does happen, even in BsAs ( sorry, Lucia), but
to those guys and to the wanna'be teachers who usually
have under five years of experience, if they say or do
something annoying,, I smile sweetly and say, "You are
getting better."

Now, how could they be offended? Yet, it does give
them pause.

Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 14:36:05 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

- Anna Karabatsos: ".. how do I tell this teacher that he shouldn't be
teaching .. at a milonga, even if it is just suggestions whispered in my ear
throughout the dance? "

Just whisper back: "I want to dance!",
And relax.

Igor Polk.

Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 10:27:42 -0500
From: Gülden Özen
<gulden@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

At 09:53 AM 3/7/2006, astrid wrote:

>This brings to mind something that has irked me for a long time:
>we have several teachers and assistents at the milonga I go to. They all
>come to the milongas and dance with us, also to make the gender balance a
>little better. Now, hearing this at class is fine, but how do I feel when
>almost every time after I have danced with one of these guys, regardless of
>whether he is above or below my level of skills, when the music stops he
>says:"Muy bien, Astrid !"
>As though this tanda had just been a little lesson and I get praised because
>I "managed" to follow him through all his steps or something.
>Does this happen in other places too? Any opinions on this?
>It is a small irritation, but sometimes I find it rather out of place.
>
>Astrid

I had this experience with a person who is another instructor in another
area and and I thought he just didn't think about it and said it out of
"habit" that he has acquired in the classes he taught and at the events
where most people are his students but does this make it acceptable? No,
not really. I find it "out of place", too and prefer to hear a simple
"thanks" if anything is necessary to be said. IMHO, most times, the
experience can speak for itself and the reaction, the body language of the
partner is the priceless "thanks" that is not verbalized.

Gulden

Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 01:59:21 -0600
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: tango teaching

As a teacher, and as a human being who regretfully does not consider
herself the best tango dancer on the planet, but after 20 years, not a
neophyte, I like to dance with partners of all levels. I especially
enjoy encouraging beginners, and will ask them to dance if they seem
shy, regardless of the quality of my own dance. There are always a few
great partners at any milonga to provide memorable tangos. As an
experienced follower, I can fake a save and make the leader look good,
when a beginner puts me on the wrong foot or otherwise misleads. I would
never correct or teach in a social situation, but feel that in a milonga
(as opposed to a practica) everyone's motive is not to teach, but to
have a good time and to help others, especially beginners or insecure
dancers, to enjoy themselves. Beginners are, after all, the future of tango.
Barbara

www.tangobar-productions.com

Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 16:26:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching


--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:

A lot of it is the consequence of having been taught to
execute sequences in lock-step with the beat i.e. one beat
== one step.

This is what happens in almost all the beginners' group
lessons I see hereabouts.

Hi Chris,

When is the last time you checked out a local class? 10 or
15 years ago, most teachers in the US taught as you
describe. But if that teaching style exists here at all
today (outside of ballroom companies), it is only in the
most isolated backwater communities. Just like dancers,
teachers must continuously inprove their skills, or they
quickly become obsolete. Either your observations are a
decade out of date, or Brits are less savy consumers than
Yanks.

Sean





No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go

Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 17:02:09 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching

No wonder we have those poles !

Personally, I think teaching tango poses and slowdowns before anyone is able
to make a step precisely on beat makes total mess out of the whole concept
of dancing.

Dancing each step on beat is essential to understand what a pose is.

Dancing IS movements to the rhythm, and the simplest rhythm a human body is
able to reproduce - walking. It means "on the beat".

Salon Tango is a slow-enough dance. Very slow. As I have found, most people
who make the figures faster are not stepping on the beat - they are too
fast. It is that they do not know how to keep balance, what a tango step is.
They are too fast not because they dance to the music, but because they DO
NOT ! Is it because someone said that it is not important to follow the beat
and musical rhythmical patterns?

On the other hand, observing how some people dance to fast and rhythmic
Tango-Orilleros squeezes tears out me. Move your legs, it is the fast tempo
!!!

Igor Polk

Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 01:10 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

> 10 or 15 years ago, most teachers in the US taught as you describe.

Coo... you took lessons from most teachers in the US??

> teachers must continuously inprove their skills, or they quickly become
> obsolete.

As in any other competitive business, I think you'll find.

Chris

Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 18:12:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching

No Chris, whatever gave you the idea that I took lessons

>from most teachers in the US? May I suggest that you invest

in a simple logic textbook?

I have discussed tango pedagogy with a statistically
significant number of US teachers, most of whom were either
teachers or students in the late 1990s. The gradual
evolution from teaching steps to teaching dance almost
always comes up in these discussions, given my personal
history of railing against step pattern teachers a few
years ago. I am very confident in the accuracy of my
analysis.

Sean

--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:

> Coo... you took lessons from most teachers in the US??

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 03:53 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

> May I suggest that you invest in a simple logic textbook?
> I have discussed tango pedagogy with a statistically significant
> number of US teachers

Ah, a sample heavily biased towards those who discuss it...

Sean, may I suggest you invest in a simple statistics textbook? ;)

>>> or Brits are less savy consumers than Yanks.

Well, certainly it is the less savvy Brits who are consuming the classes.
The more savvy prefer to spend their tango time in milongas.

However I accept things are different on your side of the pond. For
example I see your current Pittsburgh tango society agenda offers about 20
classes and 1 milonga. Clearly over there class consumption is all the rage.

I wonder what you'd make of the scene here in Europe Sean. One day I'd
like to take you to the half-dozen most popular milongas in one of our
tango capitals. The number of them that run tango classes is... zero.

Chris










-------- Original Message --------

*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching
*From:* "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
*Date:* Wed, 9 May 2007 18:12:39 -0700 (PDT)

No Chris, whatever gave you the idea that I took lessons

>from most teachers in the US? May I suggest that you invest

in a simple logic textbook?

I have discussed tango pedagogy with a statistically
significant number of US teachers, most of whom were either
teachers or students in the late 1990s. The gradual
evolution from teaching steps to teaching dance almost
always comes up in these discussions, given my personal
history of railing against step pattern teachers a few
years ago. I am very confident in the accuracy of my
analysis.

Sean

--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:

> Coo... you took lessons from most teachers in the US??

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 00:58:06 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching

On Thu May 10 10:53 , "Chris, UK" sent:

>Well, certainly it is the less savvy Brits who are consuming the classes.
>The more savvy prefer to spend their tango time in milongas.

And, since we know Chris has attended classes with more than 60 different
teachers, that must certainly put him in the list of the least savvy.

Keith, HK

Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 17:03:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching

Hello Chris,

Trini, here. Since your grasp of statistical concepts
appears limited, you may be interested in knowing that
qualitative information (such as what Sean has gathered for
well over 6 years) is often reliable enough to suggest
findings with a reasonable degree of confidence. Certainly
high enough to suggest actionable policies or strategies.
And your measurements for defining level of savvyness of
Brits and methods of data gathering for how they spend
their time over their tango lives is ...?

Also, you should be aware that there are 4 other tango
organizations in town with their own schedules (not
counting the 2 local tango bands, who only do milongas).
Milongas are often coordinated with nearby cities. So last
week, for example, folks went to 3 milongas in two cities,
and could choose between 2 beginner classes, 1 intermediate
class, 1 intermediate/adv. class, 1 kids class and 3
practicas. I'm not sure where you're getting 20 classes
and 1 milonga.

That aside, Chris, I've never been able to figure out why
it matters to you how people choose to spend their time,
whether in milonga or in a class? Doesn't it all just mean
that tango is being shared and enjoyed? Isn't that the
point? So what's the problem?

Trini de Pittsburgh



--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:

> > May I suggest that you invest in a simple logic
> textbook?
> > I have discussed tango pedagogy with a statistically
> significant
> > number of US teachers
>
> Ah, a sample heavily biased towards those who discuss
> it...
>
> Sean, may I suggest you invest in a simple statistics
> textbook? ;)
>
> >>> or Brits are less savy consumers than Yanks.
>
> Well, certainly it is the less savvy Brits who are
> consuming the classes.
> The more savvy prefer to spend their tango time in
> milongas.
>
> However I accept things are different on your side of the
> pond. For
> example I see your current Pittsburgh tango society
> agenda offers about 20
> classes and 1 milonga. Clearly over there class
> consumption is all the rage.
>
> I wonder what you'd make of the scene here in Europe
> Sean. One day I'd
> like to take you to the half-dozen most popular milongas
> in one of our
> tango capitals. The number of them that run tango classes
> is... zero.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching
> *From:* "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
> *Date:* Wed, 9 May 2007 18:12:39 -0700 (PDT)
>
> No Chris, whatever gave you the idea that I took lessons
> from most teachers in the US? May I suggest that you
> invest
> in a simple logic textbook?
>
> I have discussed tango pedagogy with a statistically
> significant number of US teachers, most of whom were
> either
> teachers or students in the late 1990s. The gradual
> evolution from teaching steps to teaching dance almost
> always comes up in these discussions, given my personal
> history of railing against step pattern teachers a few
> years ago. I am very confident in the accuracy of my
> analysis.
>
> Sean
>
> --- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
>
> > Coo... you took lessons from most teachers in the US??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
>
>

Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 07:47:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mr tobias conradi <tobias_conradi@yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>

>That aside, Chris, I've never been able to figure out why
>it matters to you how people choose to spend their time,
>whether in milonga or in a class? Doesn't it all just mean
>that tango is being shared and enjoyed? Isn't that the
>point? So what's the problem?

Maybe he thinks class goers are not well suited for milongas and that when they share same spaces with milongueros they reduce the joy for the latter.

So sharing and enjoying between these two groups does not work well.


--
Tobias Conradi
Rheinsberger Str. 18
10115 Berlin, Germany

https://eng.tango.info https://festivals.tango.info
https://info.tango.info










Der fr?he Vogel f?ngt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: https://mail.yahoo.de

Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 04:17:56 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>

What you say is logical, Tobias, but Chris actually thinks the opposite. His view appears to be that people shouldn't attend classes at all - but should learn to dance in the milongas. Correct me if I'm wrong, Chris.

Keith, HK


On Fri May 11 15:47 , Mr tobias conradi sent:

>>That aside, Chris, I've never been able to figure out why
>>it matters to you how people choose to spend their time,
>>whether in milonga or in a class? Doesn't it all just mean
>>that tango is being shared and enjoyed? Isn't that the
>>point? So what's the problem?

>Maybe he thinks class goers are not well suited for milongas and that when they share same spaces with milongueros they reduce the joy for the latter.
>
>So sharing and enjoying between these two groups does not work well.
>
>
>--
>Tobias Conradi
>Rheinsberger Str. 18
>10115 Berlin, Germany

Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 11:32:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching
To: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>, Tango-L

The use of the term "statistically significant" caught my eye, too. Based on my limited knowledge, "statistically significant" refers to data sets which are being evaluated for
sameness. This involves quantative, rather than qualitative data, and the generation
of a test statistic, etc.
I think we all knew what was meant by the use of the term, but your words
"with a reasonable degree of confidence" would have been more appropriate.
Respectfully,
Steve


"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello Chris,

Trini, here. Since your grasp of statistical concepts
appears limited, you may be interested in knowing that
qualitative information (such as what Sean has gathered for
well over 6 years) is often reliable enough to suggest
findings with a reasonable degree of confidence. Certainly
high enough to suggest actionable policies or strategies.
And your measurements for defining level of savvyness of
Brits and methods of data gathering for how they spend
their time over their tango lives is ...?

Also, you should be aware that there are 4 other tango
organizations in town with their own schedules (not
counting the 2 local tango bands, who only do milongas).
Milongas are often coordinated with nearby cities. So last
week, for example, folks went to 3 milongas in two cities,
and could choose between 2 beginner classes, 1 intermediate
class, 1 intermediate/adv. class, 1 kids class and 3
practicas. I'm not sure where you're getting 20 classes
and 1 milonga.

That aside, Chris, I've never been able to figure out why
it matters to you how people choose to spend their time,
whether in milonga or in a class? Doesn't it all just mean
that tango is being shared and enjoyed? Isn't that the
point? So what's the problem?

Trini de Pittsburgh



--- "Chris, UK" wrote:

> > May I suggest that you invest in a simple logic
> textbook?
> > I have discussed tango pedagogy with a statistically
> significant
> > number of US teachers
>
> Ah, a sample heavily biased towards those who discuss
> it...
>
> Sean, may I suggest you invest in a simple statistics
> textbook? ;)
>
> >>> or Brits are less savy consumers than Yanks.
>
> Well, certainly it is the less savvy Brits who are
> consuming the classes.
> The more savvy prefer to spend their tango time in
> milongas.
>
> However I accept things are different on your side of the
> pond. For
> example I see your current Pittsburgh tango society
> agenda offers about 20
> classes and 1 milonga. Clearly over there class
> consumption is all the rage.
>
> I wonder what you'd make of the scene here in Europe
> Sean. One day I'd
> like to take you to the half-dozen most popular milongas
> in one of our
> tango capitals. The number of them that run tango classes
> is... zero.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching
> *From:* "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"

> *To:* Tango-L
> *Date:* Wed, 9 May 2007 18:12:39 -0700 (PDT)
>
> No Chris, whatever gave you the idea that I took lessons
> from most teachers in the US? May I suggest that you
> invest
> in a simple logic textbook?
>
> I have discussed tango pedagogy with a statistically
> significant number of US teachers, most of whom were
> either
> teachers or students in the late 1990s. The gradual
> evolution from teaching steps to teaching dance almost
> always comes up in these discussions, given my personal
> history of railing against step pattern teachers a few
> years ago. I am very confident in the accuracy of my
> analysis.
>
> Sean
>
> --- "Chris, UK" wrote:
>
> > Coo... you took lessons from most teachers in the US??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
>
>

always stay connected to friends.

Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 15:27:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching

Hi Steve,

Actually, one normally tests for things that are
"significantly different" rather than looking for sameness.
One experienced in data analysis can also convert
qualitative data into quantitative data for testing
purposes, which was part of my job in a previous "life".
But I don't think most on the List is terribly interested
learning about data manipulation.

Wish I had the time to analyze Clay's Nelson's data on his
recent survey and break it down further. It was nice of
him to provide the raw data, though I haven't looked
through it, yet. If someone else is interested in taking a
shot at it, the data is at
https://www.claysdancestudio.com/Surveys/Surveys.htm?u—0593730949

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The use of the term "statistically significant" caught my
> eye, too. Based on my limited knowledge, "statistically
> significant" refers to data sets which are being
> evaluated for
> sameness. This involves quantative, rather than
> qualitative data, and the generation
> of a test statistic, etc.
> I think we all knew what was meant by the use of the
> term, but your words
> "with a reasonable degree of confidence" would have
> been more appropriate.
> Respectfully,
> Steve
>
>
> "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello Chris,
>
> Trini, here. Since your grasp of statistical concepts
> appears limited, you may be interested in knowing that
> qualitative information (such as what Sean has gathered
> for
> well over 6 years) is often reliable enough to suggest
> findings with a reasonable degree of confidence.
> Certainly
> high enough to suggest actionable policies or strategies.
>
> And your measurements for defining level of savvyness of
> Brits and methods of data gathering for how they spend
> their time over their tango lives is ...?
>
> Also, you should be aware that there are 4 other tango
> organizations in town with their own schedules (not
> counting the 2 local tango bands, who only do milongas).
> Milongas are often coordinated with nearby cities. So
> last
> week, for example, folks went to 3 milongas in two
> cities,
> and could choose between 2 beginner classes, 1
> intermediate
> class, 1 intermediate/adv. class, 1 kids class and 3
> practicas. I'm not sure where you're getting 20 classes
> and 1 milonga.
>
> That aside, Chris, I've never been able to figure out why
> it matters to you how people choose to spend their time,
> whether in milonga or in a class? Doesn't it all just
> mean
> that tango is being shared and enjoyed? Isn't that the
> point? So what's the problem?
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
> --- "Chris, UK" wrote:
>
> > > May I suggest that you invest in a simple logic
> > textbook?
> > > I have discussed tango pedagogy with a statistically
> > significant
> > > number of US teachers
> >
> > Ah, a sample heavily biased towards those who discuss
> > it...
> >
> > Sean, may I suggest you invest in a simple statistics
> > textbook? ;)
> >
> > >>> or Brits are less savy consumers than Yanks.
> >
> > Well, certainly it is the less savvy Brits who are
> > consuming the classes.
> > The more savvy prefer to spend their tango time in
> > milongas.
> >
> > However I accept things are different on your side of
> the
> > pond. For
> > example I see your current Pittsburgh tango society
> > agenda offers about 20
> > classes and 1 milonga. Clearly over there class
> > consumption is all the rage.
> >
> > I wonder what you'd make of the scene here in Europe
> > Sean. One day I'd
> > like to take you to the half-dozen most popular
> milongas
> > in one of our
> > tango capitals. The number of them that run tango
> classes
> > is... zero.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> >
> > *Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching
> > *From:* "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
>
> > *To:* Tango-L
> > *Date:* Wed, 9 May 2007 18:12:39 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> > No Chris, whatever gave you the idea that I took
> lessons
> > from most teachers in the US? May I suggest that you
> > invest
> > in a simple logic textbook?
> >
> > I have discussed tango pedagogy with a statistically
> > significant number of US teachers, most of whom were
> > either
> > teachers or students in the late 1990s. The gradual
> > evolution from teaching steps to teaching dance almost
> > always comes up in these discussions, given my personal
> > history of railing against step pattern teachers a few
> > years ago. I am very confident in the accuracy of my
> > analysis.
> >
> > Sean
> >
> > --- "Chris, UK" wrote:
> >
> > > Coo... you took lessons from most teachers in the
> US??
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
> > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> around
>
>
>
> always stay connected to friends.

Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.

Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 08:52:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Teaching
To: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>,
Cc: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>

Yes, I should have said that one "looks" for things that
are significantly different. So one says that two data
sets are or are not significantly different as opposed to
saying that they are the same. I was confusing how one
would normally interpret the data with the actual test.

Trini de Pittsburgh

--- Tango Society of Central Illinois
<tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 5/11/07, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Steve,
> >
> > Actually, one normally tests for things that are
> > "significantly different" rather than looking for
> sameness.
>
> Steve, Trini
>
> Actually, technically Steve is correct. The oddity of
> statistics is
> that one tests (null hypothesis) whether groups are the
> same, but one
> hopes to 'reject' the null hypothesis and 'accept' the
> alternative
> hypothesis that the groups are different.
>
> Ron Weigel
> Statistician by day
> Tanguero by night
>
>
> > --- steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The use of the term "statistically significant"
> caught my
> > > eye, too. Based on my limited knowledge,
> "statistically
> > > significant" refers to data sets which are being
> > > evaluated for
> > > sameness. This involves quantative, rather than
> > > qualitative data, and the generation
> > > of a test statistic, etc.
> > > I think we all knew what was meant by the use of
> the
> > > term, but your words
> > > "with a reasonable degree of confidence" would have
> > > been more appropriate.
> > > Respectfully,
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >

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