Being on axis in all styles


3131 Being on axis in all styles	ARTICLE INDEX
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:34:56 -0600 From: Leonard Kunkel <image10@SWBELL.NET> Subject: Being on axis in all styles Clint Rauscher said: "I dance mostly on-the-body and most of the on-the-body follows put way too much weight on the leaders. Most of the best on-the-body follows actually started as off-the-body (open embrace) dancers, because they learned up front to maintain their own balance." This has also been my experience. I could not agree with anything stronger. The vast majority of on-the-body followers I have danced with have less sense and control of their own axis. Without the proper training and exercises practiced on their own or in open embrace they have no concept that it could be better. It was five years of exercises and dancing before I myself knew what it was like to be on my own axis. At this point when partners respect each others balance is the tango opened up an unlimited amount of movements . Then Improvisation becomes optimal not just to mixing the movements you already know in different ways but actually creating your own movements. Sincerely, Leonardo K. Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:59:33 +0000 From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Being on axis in all styles I have mixed feelings about it all. My current partner, Jodi Syverson, is excellent about having an erect posture and perfectly maintaining her own balance. It is unquestionably a joy dancing with her and other women with that style. On the other hand, there have been some followers that I have danced with that "push" into me a lot more. This is NOT "hanging" or giving downward weight, it is more a forward if not upward-directed push that is very dynamic. If you want to talk energy, it feels like a forceful intention of directed energy to me, into my chest, really committed, really coming into me. I used to describe Kirstie, one of my favorite followers that danced like this, now relocated to somewhere in CA, I believe, as "fitting me like a glove," the connection is so close. One of the consequences is that I as leader am much more in control of the dynamics of our dance. I can do things with the music and get instant response from my follower, much faster, in a millisecond time-frame, than all but the very best "on-axis" followers. It's a different dance, one downside of which is that the follower doesn't have the opportunity to "play" as much, doesn't have the mechanism to express her own contribution, I mean, she can a little, certainly, in some ways, but just not as much as an on-axis follower. So I guess my point is that, while there are pluses and minuses to each style, they both have great enjoyment to offer, they're just different. And as always, it's pretty much the follower that dictates how it will go. I as leader can choose to dance open or closed, but if I've chosen closed, I sort of have to take what the follower gives me and accomodate and deal with it. [Just to ramble a bit more] if she is hanging on me however, I sometimes will decide to open up just to save my back and shoulders. Jay in Portland www.TangoMoments.com ----Original Message Follows---- Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:18:30 -0700 From: Deb Sclar <deb@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM> Subject: Re: Being on axis in all styles Thanx, Jay, nice distinction in your description below! As a follower who loves to play in and explore all possibilities and styles in tango, I would venture to clarify, at least based on my OWN experience dancing as you describe, that while the "push" connection is an option, the more expressive and satisfying one for me could be described more like "melting" toward my partner. I have Tomas Howlin to thank for insisting very specifically on practicing/using this very yummy, lovely and specific element, which is attainable no matter how open or closed the embrace - applying same to transitions between open and close is also extraordinarily powerful and makes for VERY compelling connections between partners (gracias, Tomas!). Also, your comment that "...one downside of which is that the follower doesn't have the opportunity to "play" as much, doesn't have the mechanism to express her own contribution, I mean, she can a little, certainly, in some ways, but just not as much as an on-axis follower..." I believe is more of an individual thing, and perhaps a reflection of skill level. If I have a great connection to my leader, to the music and to my core, I feel I always have access to MANY opportunities for adornos, expression and play in the dance, in close or open frame. All the best, Deb Sclar www.danceoftheheart.com -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:00 PM To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Being on axis in all styles I have mixed feelings about it all. My current partner, Jodi Syverson, is excellent about having an erect posture and perfectly maintaining her own balance. It is unquestionably a joy dancing with her and other women with that style. On the other hand, there have been some followers that I have danced with that "push" into me a lot more. This is NOT "hanging" or giving downward weight, it is more a forward if not upward-directed push that is very dynamic. If you want to talk energy, it feels like a forceful intention of directed energy to me, into my chest, really committed, really coming into me. I used to describe Kirstie, one of my favorite followers that danced like this, now relocated to somewhere in CA, I believe, as "fitting me like a glove," the connection is so close. One of the consequences is that I as leader am much more in control of the dynamics of our dance. I can do things with the music and get instant response from my follower, much faster, in a millisecond time-frame, than all but the very best "on-axis" followers. It's a different dance, one downside of which is that the follower doesn't have the opportunity to "play" as much, doesn't have the mechanism to express her own contribution, I mean, she can a little, certainly, in some ways, but just not as much as an on-axis follower. So I guess my point is that, while there are pluses and minuses to each style, they both have great enjoyment to offer, they're just different. And as always, it's pretty much the follower that dictates how it will go. I as leader can choose to dance open or closed, but if I've chosen closed, I sort of have to take what the follower gives me and accomodate and deal with it. [Just to ramble a bit more] if she is hanging on me however, I sometimes will decide to open up just to save my back and shoulders. Jay in Portland www.TangoMoments.com ----Original Message Follows---- Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:55:40 -0500 From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM> Subject: Re: Being on axis in all styles Interesting description, Deb, re: '"melting towards my partner.' Can you describe how it's done or is it a trade secret? ;-) El Bandito de Tango In a message dated 1/17/2005 3:18:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, Deb Sclar <deb@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM> writes: >Thanx, Jay, nice distinction in your description below! > >As a follower who loves to play in and explore all possibilities and styles >in tango, I would venture to clarify, at least based on my OWN experience >dancing as you describe, that while the "push" connection is an option, the >more expressive and satisfying one for me could be described more like >"melting" toward my partner. I have Tomas Howlin to thank for insisting very >specifically on practicing/using this very yummy, lovely and specific >element, which is attainable no matter how open or closed the embrace - >applying same to transitions between open and close is also extraordinarily >powerful and makes for VERY compelling connections between partners >(gracias, Tomas!). > >Also, your comment that "...one downside of which is that the follower >doesn't have the opportunity to "play" as much, doesn't have the mechanism >to express her own contribution, I mean, she can a little, certainly, in >some ways, but just not as much as an on-axis follower..." I believe is more >of an individual thing, and perhaps a reflection of skill level. If I have a >great connection to my leader, to the music and to my core, I feel I always >have access to MANY opportunities for adornos, expression and play in the >dance, in close or open frame. > >All the best, > >Deb Sclar >www.danceoftheheart.com > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango >[mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Jay Rabe >Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:00 PM >To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU >Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Being on axis in all styles > > >I have mixed feelings about it all. My current partner, Jodi Syverson, is >excellent about having an erect posture and perfectly maintaining her own >balance. It is unquestionably a joy dancing with her and other women with >that style. On the other hand, there have been some followers that I have >danced with that "push" into me a lot more. This is NOT "hanging" or giving >downward weight, it is more a forward if not upward-directed push that is >very dynamic. If you want to talk energy, it feels like a forceful intention >of directed energy to me, into my chest, really committed, really coming >into me. I used to describe Kirstie, one of my favorite followers that >danced like this, now relocated to somewhere in CA, I believe, as "fitting >me like a glove," the connection is so close. One of the consequences is >that I as leader am much more in control of the dynamics of our dance. I can >do things with the music and get instant response from my follower, much >faster, in a millisecond time-frame, than all but the very best "on-axis" >followers. It's a different dance, one downside of which is that the >follower doesn't have the opportunity to "play" as much, doesn't have the >mechanism to express her own contribution, I mean, she can a little, >certainly, in some ways, but just not as much as an on-axis follower. > >So I guess my point is that, while there are pluses and minuses to each >style, they both have great enjoyment to offer, they're just different. And >as always, it's pretty much the follower that dictates how it will go. I as >leader can choose to dance open or closed, but if I've chosen closed, I sort >of have to take what the follower gives me and accomodate and deal with it. >[Just to ramble a bit more] if she is hanging on me however, I sometimes >will decide to open up just to save my back and shoulders. > >Jay in Portland >www.TangoMoments.com > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- >From: Leonard Kunkel <image10@SWBELL.NET> > >Clint Rauscher said: > >"I dance mostly on-the-body and most of the on-the-body follows put way too >much weight on the leaders. Most of the best on-the-body follows actually >started as off-the-body (open embrace) dancers, because they learned up >front to maintain their own balance." > >This has also been my experience. I could not agree with anything stronger. >The vast majority of on-the-body followers I have danced with have less >sense and control of their own axis. Without the proper training and >exercises practiced on their own or in open embrace they have no concept >that it could be better. It was five years of exercises and dancing before I >myself knew what it was like to be on my own axis. At this point when >partners respect each others balance is the tango opened up an unlimited >amount of movements . Then Improvisation becomes optimal not just to mixing >the movements you already know in different ways but actually creating your >own movements. > >Sincerely, >Leonardo K. > Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:16:47 +0000 From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Being on axis in all styles Well Deb, then I guess I need to add my thanks to Tomas Howlin, because whatever he said that worked, there's no doubt that it works Very Well. Yes, "melting" is a better descriptor of how you feel in my arms. MMmmmmm. :-) J ----Original Message Follows---- Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:42:57 -0700 From: Deb Sclar <deb@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM> Subject: Re: Being on axis in all styles Hola Bandito, There's no trade secret to 'melting' (especially if you can call on your inner witch - just kidding, I THINK!!!), but if a recommendation is useful, here are two: 1. Tomas Howlin is the maestro of perfecting this delicious elementito. Study with him whenever you have the op!!! 2. Until then, in general, be sensitive and gentle with eachother, listen carefully and passionately to your partners and you'll discover a LOT. Saludos, Deb Sclar www.danceoftheheart.com -----Original Message----- From: Mallpasso@aol.com [mailto:Mallpasso@aol.com] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:56 PM To: Deb Sclar; TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Being on axis in all styles Interesting description, Deb, re: '"melting towards my partner.' Can you describe how it's done or is it a trade secret? ;-) El Bandito de Tango In a message dated 1/17/2005 3:18:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, Deb Sclar <deb@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM> writes: >Thanx, Jay, nice distinction in your description below! > >As a follower who loves to play in and explore all possibilities and styles >in tango, I would venture to clarify, at least based on my OWN experience >dancing as you describe, that while the "push" connection is an option, the >more expressive and satisfying one for me could be described more like >"melting" toward my partner. I have Tomas Howlin to thank for insisting very >specifically on practicing/using this very yummy, lovely and specific >element, which is attainable no matter how open or closed the embrace - >applying same to transitions between open and close is also extraordinarily >powerful and makes for VERY compelling connections between partners >(gracias, Tomas!). > >Also, your comment that "...one downside of which is that the follower >doesn't have the opportunity to "play" as much, doesn't have the mechanism >to express her own contribution, I mean, she can a little, certainly, in >some ways, but just not as much as an on-axis follower..." I believe is more >of an individual thing, and perhaps a reflection of skill level. If I have a >great connection to my leader, to the music and to my core, I feel I always >have access to MANY opportunities for adornos, expression and play in the >dance, in close or open frame. > >All the best, > >Deb Sclar >www.danceoftheheart.com > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango >[mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Jay Rabe >Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:00 PM >To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU >Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Being on axis in all styles > > >I have mixed feelings about it all. My current partner, Jodi Syverson, is >excellent about having an erect posture and perfectly maintaining her own >balance. It is unquestionably a joy dancing with her and other women with >that style. On the other hand, there have been some followers that I have >danced with that "push" into me a lot more. This is NOT "hanging" or giving >downward weight, it is more a forward if not upward-directed push that is >very dynamic. If you want to talk energy, it feels like a forceful intention >of directed energy to me, into my chest, really committed, really coming >into me. I used to describe Kirstie, one of my favorite followers that >danced like this, now relocated to somewhere in CA, I believe, as "fitting >me like a glove," the connection is so close. One of the consequences is >that I as leader am much more in control of the dynamics of our dance. I can >do things with the music and get instant response from my follower, much >faster, in a millisecond time-frame, than all but the very best "on-axis" >followers. It's a different dance, one downside of which is that the >follower doesn't have the opportunity to "play" as much, doesn't have the >mechanism to express her own contribution, I mean, she can a little, >certainly, in some ways, but just not as much as an on-axis follower. > >So I guess my point is that, while there are pluses and minuses to each >style, they both have great enjoyment to offer, they're just different. And >as always, it's pretty much the follower that dictates how it will go. I as >leader can choose to dance open or closed, but if I've chosen closed, I sort >of have to take what the follower gives me and accomodate and deal with it. >[Just to ramble a bit more] if she is hanging on me however, I sometimes >will decide to open up just to save my back and shoulders. > >Jay in Portland >www.TangoMoments.com > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- >From: Leonard Kunkel <image10@SWBELL.NET> > >Clint Rauscher said: > >"I dance mostly on-the-body and most of the on-the-body follows put way too >much weight on the leaders. Most of the best on-the-body follows actually >started as off-the-body (open embrace) dancers, because they learned up >front to maintain their own balance." > >This has also been my experience. I could not agree with anything stronger. >The vast majority of on-the-body followers I have danced with have less >sense and control of their own axis. Without the proper training and >exercises practiced on their own or in open embrace they have no concept >that it could be better. It was five years of exercises and dancing before I >myself knew what it was like to be on my own axis. At this point when >partners respect each others balance is the tango opened up an unlimited >amount of movements . Then Improvisation becomes optimal not just to mixing >the movements you already know in different ways but actually creating your >own movements. > >Sincerely, >Leonardo K. > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:10:01 +0100 From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM> Subject: Re: Being on axis in all styles Leonard Kunkel wrote: > Clint Rauscher said: > > "I dance mostly on-the-body and most of the on-the-body follows put way too > much weight on the leaders. Most of the best on-the-body follows actually > started as off-the-body (open embrace) dancers, because they learned up > front to maintain their own balance." > > This has also been my experience. I could not agree with anything > stronger. I could agree with something weaker (or with more nuances), actually. There are three main options: (1) each person on their own axis, open embrace, lots of room (2) each person on their own axis, close (but not closed) embrace (3) both persons sharing a common axis (necessarily closed, at least at the top) They're all different, and very distinct. One thing that bothers me is that some dispute that (2) can exist; others confuse (2) and (3) or think that (3) should always be (2). Despite the fact the dynamics of the three options are entirely different. I agree that the best dancers can do all of these, and that to learn only the last option is dangerous - even if you have a common axis, the other person is no crutch and you have a shared responsibility for maintaining balance. And learning how to maintain yourself over your own axis is a thing that can learn you how to properly nurture a common axis (which is like a child you raise together). It will also teach a follower independence of purpose -- which is necessary to become a really good follower with a more active role in shaping the dance (and in particular, how the rythm of the dance "breathes"). Followers may follow, but they're not "leader appendices", and learning where they stand makes them aware of that fact... Nevertheless, there are followers who only dance (3) that are true masters, so it's not impossible to become a consumate follower without ever having done (1) and (2). But you'll probably (if you're a leader with flaws, as we all are ;) ) experience that they won't just lean on you unless they feel you're ready to do your bit as a leader, too: the embrace, after all, is negotiated in a dialogue. Actually, the very best dancers will alternate between the three styles according to their movement, the music and the inspiration of the moment (and in a social dancing setting, the room on the floor ;) ) even within one dance - there's something magical about feeling your follower's hand sliding around your shoulder when you're going from an open to a closed embrace :] ... -- Alexis Cousein Senior Systems Engineer alexis@sgi.com SGI Brussels If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals. Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:21:30 -0800 From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Being on axis in all styles -----Original Message----- > From: Mallpasso@aol.com [mailto:Mallpasso@aol.com] Interesting description, Deb, re: '"melting towards > my partner.' Can you describe how it's done > or is it a trade secret? ;-) It happens naturally with Tomas Howlin. He's a cutie. ;-) Seriously, I was just thinking when Deb mentioned him, about a workshop I took with Howlin and Winkler. I both led and followed in the course of the workshop, and both of the instructors worked with me during the afternoon. Being in their embrace, or having them in mine, was an extraordinary experience. I felt as if we fit - and I have no idea how they did it. In addition, I would like to say that both of them were very respectful - I can't think of a better way to say it. I felt like they accepted me for the way I dance right now, and simply assumed that in a bit I would dance better - no overtones of how they are extraordinary dancers and I'm a putterer, no hint that anything I'm missing is something they would have expected. Their corrections were made quietly and peacefully and they reinforced instantly any improvements. Marisa Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:26:10 -0500 From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET> Subject: Re: Being on axis in all styles Congratulations Marisa on discovering the power of tango. The power comes from acceptance. Some dancers try to change the other partner by giving instruction that is usually 1) not solicited and 2) usualy incorrect. Acceptance is not trying to change the partner. If possible, you adjust to your partner (without sacrificing frame, axis, posture, nor balance.) Everybody is looking for something different. Some are looking for relationships off the dance floor; some only want to dance with certain dancers because they want to be seen dancing with "stars," or the other person meets personal criteria for appearance. For some, the dance is about "me" instead of "us." I went to Ft. Lauderdale, FL over the weekend and danced with a fantastic dancer from New York. Of course, she travels 1300 miles and I travel 1100 miles. (I'm not going to print her name because I don't want to take a chance of embarassing her.) I danced close embrace. She danced closer embrace!! I didn't know closer embrace existed. She put her right hand on my neck and just pulled me even closer. I thought my heart was going to explode. Figures meant NOTHING!! Just being together, nothing to prove to the other. After each dance, my eyes were closed because I was in a tango trance. When I came out of the trance, she looked at me and asked "Are you OK?" I said N-O-O-O-O!! It's a good thing I pay extra for tango coverage on my health plan. I thought I was going to need a defibrilator. We just melted. I could tell she was better than me, but then it wasn't a competition. It was just two dancers enjoying the music and the moment. I hope I can find her because I'm leaving for New York tomorrow for 5 nights. It can be cold outside. Tango generates its own heat. Michael Ditkoff Hoping for early dismissal and early train to New York tomorrow Marisa wrote: > ..I was just thinking ...about a workshop I took with Howlin and Winkler. Being in their embrace, or having them in > mine, was an extraordinary experience. In addition, I would like to say that both of them were > very respectful I felt like they accepted me for the way I dance > right now, .. no hint that > anything I'm missing is something they would have > expected. > > Marisa Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:19:01 -0700 From: Chas Gale <hotchango@MSN.COM> Subject: Re: Being on axis in all styles >Michael Ditkoff wrote: """....I danced close embrace. She danced closer >embrace!! I didn't know closer embrace existed. She put her right hand on >my neck and just pulled me even closer. I thought my heart was going to >explode... After each dance, my eyes were closed because I was in a tango >trance. When I came out of the trance, she looked at me and asked "Are you >OK?" I said N-O-O-O-O!! It's a good thing I pay extra for tango coverage >on my health plan. I thought I was going to need a defibrilator. We just >melted.... >""" Michael, are you sure it was her right hand? Who was leading? I have had this experience as well. But instead of her right hand, she uses the bony edge of her left forearm on the back of my neck to pull me closer. The feeling that my heart would explode was actually my brain instructing my heart to send more oxygen. The trance was the state we reach just before unconsciousness. We are lucky tango tunes are so short, otherwise a defibrillator, or at least CPR WOULD be needed. You can get to this kind of tango trance even faster with a follower who, in addition to the left forearm neck lock, presses her forehead into your right temple. This combination can induce a trance so powerful you will see colors. When there is no milonga and I need a fix, I just tie a drycleaner bag around my head... Good times, good times... Chas "How many fingers am I holding up." Gale Denver, Colorado, USA https://www.thetangohouse.com/ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:51:23 -0500 From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET> Subject: Re: Being on axis in all styles Chas: My error. Just thinking about it clouded my judgement. It was her left hand. I forgot I have to think reverse images. It was the right side of = my body but her left hand. I guess I'll have to stand in front of the mirror next time when typing to make sure I get it right. I don't know how she pulled me in. But I felt it. O-H did I feel it. Michael 4 hours early release tomorrow!! All aboard Amtrak #176, track 24 ----- Original Message ----- From: Chas Gale To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Being on axis in all styles >Michael Ditkoff wrote: """....I danced close embrace. She danced closer >embrace!! I didn't know closer embrace existed. She put her right hand on >my neck and just = pulled me even closer. I thought my heart was going to >explode... After each dance, my eyes were closed because I was in a tango >trance. When I = came out of the trance, she looked at me and asked "Are you >OK?" I said N-O-O-O-O!! It's a good thing I pay extra for tango coverage >on my health plan. I thought I was going to need a = defibrilator. We just >melted.... >""" Michael, are you sure it was her right hand? Who was leading? I have had this experience as well. But instead of her right hand, she uses the = bony edge of her left forearm on the back of my neck to pull me closer. The feeling that my heart would explode was actually my brain = instructing my heart to send more oxygen. The trance was the state we reach just before unconsciousness. We are lucky tango tunes are so short, otherwise a defibrillator, or at least CPR WOULD be needed. You can get to this kind of tango trance even faster with a follower who, in addition to the left forearm neck lock, presses her forehead = into your right temple. This combination can induce a trance so powerful you will see colors. When there is no milonga and I need a fix, I just = tie a drycleaner bag around my head... Good times, good times... Chas "How many fingers am I holding up." Gale Denver, Colorado, USA https://www.thetangohouse.com/ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 04:49:00 +0000 From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Being on axis in all styles Clint Rauscher said: "I dance mostly on-the-body and most of the on-the-body follows put way too much weight on the leaders. Most of the best on-the-body follows actually started as off-the-body (open embrace) dancers, because they learned up front to maintain their own balance." Leonardo K. agreed strongly: "I could not agree with anything stronger. The vast majority of on-the-body followers I have danced with have less sense and control of their own axis. Without the proper training and exercises practiced on their own or in open embrace they have no concept that it could be better..." First what I agree with strongly, but not terribly so... somewhat strongly: in the style I dance in close embrace both leader and follower should be on there own axis (with a few step exceptions). I couldnt disagree any stronger with the part about the necessity of proper training in the open frame dancing. There is absolutely no need for that. In fact one of the most common problems with the followers trained in the open frame attempting to dance in the close embrace is that their posture is pulled too far back from solar plex and up, which cripples connection, communication with the partner (the grossly exaggerated form of this posture is done by ballroom dancers). There are a few walking exercises to teach dancers to be on their own axis without resorting to the open frame dancing. Cheers, Oleh K. https://TangoSpring.com >From: Leonard Kunkel <image10@SWBELL.NET> >Reply-To: Leonard Kunkel <image10@SWBELL.NET> >To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU >Subject: [TANGO-L] Being on axis in all styles >Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:34:56 -0600 > >Clint Rauscher said: > >"I dance mostly on-the-body and most of the on-the-body follows put way too >much weight on the leaders. Most of the best on-the-body follows actually >started as off-the-body (open embrace) dancers, because they learned up >front to maintain their own balance." > >This has also been my experience. I could not agree with anything stronger. >The vast majority of on-the-body followers I have danced with have less >sense and control of their own axis. Without the proper training and >exercises practiced on their own or in open embrace they have no concept >that it could be better. It was five years of exercises and dancing before >I myself knew what it was like to be on my own axis. At this point when >partners respect each others balance is the tango opened up an unlimited >amount of movements . Then Improvisation becomes optimal not just to mixing >the movements you already know in different ways but actually creating your >own movements. > >Sincerely, >Leonardo K. Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:01:10 +0000 From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Being on axis in all styles Alexis Cousein wrote a lot about necessity of open frame dancing to be a good dancer and a bit about magic of getting in the close embrace: "...there's something magical about feeling your follower's hand sliding around your shoulder when you're going from an open to a closed embrace :] ... " Indeed. It's only when you separate from the close embrace to execute another exceptionally difficult step that you begin to feel like a bummer. Cheers, Oleh K. https://TangoSpring.com >From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM> >Reply-To: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM> >To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU >Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Being on axis in all styles >Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:10:01 +0100 > >Leonard Kunkel wrote: > >>Clint Rauscher said: >> >>"I dance mostly on-the-body and most of the on-the-body follows put way >>too >>much weight on the leaders. Most of the best on-the-body follows actually >>started as off-the-body (open embrace) dancers, because they learned up >>front to maintain their own balance." >> >>This has also been my experience. I could not agree with anything >>stronger. > >I could agree with something weaker (or with more nuances), actually. > >There are three main options: > >(1) each person on their own axis, open embrace, lots of room >(2) each person on their own axis, close (but not closed) embrace >(3) both persons sharing a common axis (necessarily closed, at >least at the top) > >They're all different, and very distinct. One thing that bothers >me is that some dispute that (2) can exist; others confuse >(2) and (3) or think that (3) should always be (2). Despite >the fact the dynamics of the three options are entirely different. > >I agree that the best dancers can do all of these, and that >to learn only the last option is dangerous - even if you have a >common axis, the other person is no crutch and you have a shared >responsibility for maintaining balance. > >And learning how to maintain yourself over your own axis is a >thing that can learn you how to properly nurture a common axis >(which is like a child you raise together). > >It will also teach a follower independence of purpose -- >which is necessary to become a really good follower with >a more active role in shaping the dance (and in particular, >how the rythm of the dance "breathes"). Followers may follow, >but they're not "leader appendices", and learning where they >stand makes them aware of that fact... > >Nevertheless, there are followers who only dance (3) that >are true masters, so it's not impossible to become a consumate >follower without ever having done (1) and (2). But you'll probably >(if you're a leader with flaws, as we all are ;) ) experience that >they won't just lean on you unless they feel you're ready to do >your bit as a leader, too: the embrace, after all, is negotiated >in a dialogue. > >Actually, the very best dancers will alternate between the three styles >according to their movement, the music and the inspiration of the moment >(and in a social dancing setting, the room on the floor ;) ) even within >one dance - there's something magical about feeling your follower's >hand sliding around your shoulder when you're going >from an open to a closed embrace :] ... > > >-- >Alexis Cousein Senior Systems Engineer >alexis@sgi.com SGI Brussels >If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals. Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 01:21:01 -0500 From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM> Subject: Re: Being on axis in all styles Hola Oleh, > First what I agree with strongly, but not terribly so... somewhat strongly: > in the style I dance in close embrace both leader and follower should be on > there own axis (with a few step exceptions). Sure.. absolutely.. there are always exceptions to everything. > I couldnt disagree any stronger with the part about the > necessity of proper > training in the open frame dancing. I could not agree more... It is not a necessity for dancers to learn off-the-body (open frame) in order to have proper training. They could get it from the on-the-body teachers but I don't find that to be the norm. BTW, this is another conversation.. but the reason I use the terms on-the-body and off-the-body instead of open and close embrace is that I feel all tango is close embrace... just different degrees of close. Anyway.. back to what we were discussing. All I was trying to say was that off-the-body "forces" followers to learn to maintain their own axis, while on-the-body dancers "can" get away with putting too much weight on the leader. This is not to say that follows that learn on-the-body first are always going to be heavy. There are some that are very light and they are a joy to dance with and my back is not killing me after a song or two. > fact one of the most common problems with the followers trained > in the open > frame attempting to dance in the close embrace is that their posture is > pulled too far back from solar plex and up, which cripples connection, > communication with the partner My only comment to this would be that they have been poorly trained. The axis and projection should be exactly the same in both styles. Everything should be the same except you move together til your chests are touching and generally her head moves from looking at your left shoulder to over your right shoulder.. actually the head placement is variable depending on height and preference of the follow. Let me state again for the record.. I love both styles and cannot imagine only picking one to dance exclusively.. although there is nothing wrong with anyone choosing to do that. I love the connection and embrace of on-the-body dancing.. and I can do probably 90% of the moves on-the-body that I can do off-the-body... but that 10% is a whole lot of fun... plus when it gets as hot as it does here in Atlanta... believe me.. it feels great to move off-the-body for a few dances to let the air flow. All the best, Clint clint@axialpartners.com Continue to Instructors in NYC ? \| ARTICLE INDEX

3131 Being on axis in all styles