1978  black tinge and sex in tango

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:01:13 -0800
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: black tinge and sex in tango

These are my thougths about the black tinge and sexual/erotic presence in
tango.

1. The black tinge in the tango dance comes from the Candombe influence in
the compadrito's way of walking and dancing. In the walking the Candombe
dancers had
walking steps which looked as if their feet were testing the temperature
of the water. One foot moved slowly and peristetically followed by the
other foot. In the dancing
the Candombe dancers performed cortes, quebradas, and corridas.

2. The sexual an erotic presence in Tango is ingrained in the character of
the compadrito. Legs open were then, at least in the mind of the compdrito,
an unequivocal sign of
passive sexual role and therefore regarded as femenine. The compadrito's
attitude of walking/stepping closing his legs is an assertion of his
masculinity. Tango's
sexual/erotic content in the Tango dance portraits the man (active) and
woman (passive) roles, where the man dances with closing legs, but leads
the woman to open
her legs.

The black tinge of Tango has been avoided to the extent of denying its
association with the origins of Tango. However, there has been people like
Alberto Castillo who had dedicated a life to interpret the black side of
tango in his songs of milonga candombe. He had used "mozo guapo" instead of
compadrito in his songs perhaps because he understood the ill regarded
stauts of the compadrito by the Buenos Aires society.

To ignore the sexual content of tango which is often done in tango shows and
presentations is to buy a half truth of tango, If we ignore the sexual
content of the tango dance we ought to be dancing something else but not the
real tango.

My two cents worth,

Bruno

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:56:00 -0500
From: John Gleeson <jgleeson@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: black tinge and sex in tango

Bruno wrote:
" If we ignore the sexual content of the tango dance we ought to be dancing
something else but not the real tango."

While I don't dispute the sexual element that was a factor in the development
of the Tango, I take exception to this kind of statement. If some people choose
to remember the sexual element in the dance - good for them. If some
people choose to ignore the sexual element and enjoy dancing to the wonderful
music of the tango, sexual or asexual - good for them too.

Why do some people feel they have to tell everybody else what they should
be doing or not doing?

The world is in the sick shape that it is today because of too many people
telling other people how they should, or should not, live.

John G.





----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:01 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L] black tinge and sex in tango

> These are my thougths about the black tinge and sexual/erotic presence in
> tango.
>
> 1. The black tinge in the tango dance comes from the Candombe influence in
> the compadrito's way of walking and dancing. In the walking the Candombe
> dancers had
> walking steps which looked as if their feet were testing the temperature
> of the water. One foot moved slowly and peristetically followed by the
> other foot. In the dancing
> the Candombe dancers performed cortes, quebradas, and corridas.
>
> 2. The sexual an erotic presence in Tango is ingrained in the character of
> the compadrito. Legs open were then, at least in the mind of the compdrito,
> an unequivocal sign of
> passive sexual role and therefore regarded as femenine. The compadrito's
> attitude of walking/stepping closing his legs is an assertion of his
> masculinity. Tango's
> sexual/erotic content in the Tango dance portraits the man (active) and
> woman (passive) roles, where the man dances with closing legs, but leads
> the woman to open
> her legs.
>
> The black tinge of Tango has been avoided to the extent of denying its
> association with the origins of Tango. However, there has been people like
> Alberto Castillo who had dedicated a life to interpret the black side of
> tango in his songs of milonga candombe. He had used "mozo guapo" instead of
> compadrito in his songs perhaps because he understood the ill regarded
> stauts of the compadrito by the Buenos Aires society.
>
> To ignore the sexual content of tango which is often done in tango shows and
> presentations is to buy a half truth of tango, If we ignore the sexual
> content of the tango dance we ought to be dancing something else but not the
> real tango.
>
> My two cents worth,
>
> Bruno
>
>
>

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:55:06 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: black tinge and sex in tango

Bruno (romerob@telusplanet.net) wrote:

> " If we ignore the sexual content of the tango
> dance we ought to be dancing something else but
> not the real tango."

Hmmm. Does that mean if I'm not absolutely aching
with every bone in my body (and perhaps one in particular)
to drag my tango partner into a stall in the lavatory
for a quickie after the tanda, I have no business asking
her to dance in the first place?

And what about while I'm still on the dance floor:
Should I perhaps be lowering the position of my right
hand a foot or two to a more erogenous area for the
lady (er, I mean, woman, we're not talking ballroom
here, this is a whore's dance)?

<*a light bulb goes on*> Ah! Now I suddenly
understand those guys dancing with their left hand
in their pocket!

Huck

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:29:34 -0800
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: black tinge and sex in tango

Ok my two cents worth and experince;

It is people that are sexy, sexual, dark, light or whatever. It is the dance
that is simply a doorway to express it, the dance is just the potential for
someone.

I really did not see any demand in the last statment, it was simply a
statement and observation.

One of the best explinations I heard about the one way the walk was
developed was from El Indio.
He mentiond that the cowboys from the Pampas used to wear open toed boots
and foot wear (I have seen a couple of paintings of these guys and sure
enough).
That when they came to the cities the toes of the shoes were much tighter
and really hurt their toes. Ever try walking around in a bad pair of shoes,
I have found there are elements of this in the walk.

David Hodgson

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 10:56 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] black tinge and sex in tango


Bruno wrote:
" If we ignore the sexual content of the tango dance we ought to be
dancing
something else but not the real tango."

While I don't dispute the sexual element that was a factor in the
development
of the Tango, I take exception to this kind of statement. If some people
choose
to remember the sexual element in the dance - good for them. If some
people choose to ignore the sexual element and enjoy dancing to the
wonderful
music of the tango, sexual or asexual - good for them too.

Why do some people feel they have to tell everybody else what they should
be doing or not doing?

The world is in the sick shape that it is today because of too many people
telling other people how they should, or should not, live.

John G.





----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:01 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L] black tinge and sex in tango

> These are my thougths about the black tinge and sexual/erotic presence in
> tango.
>
> 1. The black tinge in the tango dance comes from the Candombe influence in
> the compadrito's way of walking and dancing. In the walking the Candombe
> dancers had
> walking steps which looked as if their feet were testing the

temperature

> of the water. One foot moved slowly and peristetically followed by the
> other foot. In the dancing
> the Candombe dancers performed cortes, quebradas, and corridas.
>
> 2. The sexual an erotic presence in Tango is ingrained in the character of
> the compadrito. Legs open were then, at least in the mind of the

compdrito,

> an unequivocal sign of
> passive sexual role and therefore regarded as femenine. The

compadrito's

> attitude of walking/stepping closing his legs is an assertion of his
> masculinity. Tango's
> sexual/erotic content in the Tango dance portraits the man (active)

and

> woman (passive) roles, where the man dances with closing legs, but leads
> the woman to open
> her legs.
>
> The black tinge of Tango has been avoided to the extent of denying its
> association with the origins of Tango. However, there has been people like
> Alberto Castillo who had dedicated a life to interpret the black side of
> tango in his songs of milonga candombe. He had used "mozo guapo" instead

of

> compadrito in his songs perhaps because he understood the ill regarded
> stauts of the compadrito by the Buenos Aires society.
>
> To ignore the sexual content of tango which is often done in tango shows

and

> presentations is to buy a half truth of tango, If we ignore the sexual
> content of the tango dance we ought to be dancing something else but not

the

> real tango.
>
> My two cents worth,
>
> Bruno
>
>
>

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:31:28 -0800
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: black tinge and sex in tango

Huck Kennedy wrote:

<Hmmm. Does that mean if I'm not absolutely aching
with every bone in my body (and perhaps one in particular)
to drag my tango partner into a stall in the lavatory
for a quickie after the tanda, I have no business asking
her to dance in the first place?

And what about while I'm still on the dance floor:
Should I perhaps be lowering the position of my right
hand a foot or two to a more erogenous area for the
lady (er, I mean, woman, we're not talking ballroom
here, this is a whore's dance)?

<*a light bulb goes on*> Ah! Now I suddenly
understand those guys dancing with their left hand
in their pocket!

Why is a good idea to keep in mind the sexual/erotic content in Tango?

One of the issues why is important not to ignore the sexual or erotic
content in Tango is lest the man has a feminine approach in dancing with
the woman. For example, it is common to see couples dancing in close embrace
where the man bends forward moving his pelvis away from the woman, while
keeping his chest close to the woman. Another example, is when the man
copies the woman in certain movements and postures -- pulling the pelvis
away from the embrace is a good example.

Regards,

Bruno

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:37:20 -0800
From: Hilliard <hilliard@SHAW.CA>
Subject: Black tinge and sex in tango

Thank you dear Huck and John, dear, dear MEN, for your response to Bruno's black tinge and sex in tango posting. As a married tanguera whose loving husband doesn't dance, I gasped as I read Bruno's descriptions of "opening legs," etc. I thought, "Do you mean to say that all those sacadas that I've received in the past were more than just sacadas?" I wasn't sure I could ever dance another tango again. What a relief to read Huck and John's refutation. And judging from the lack of line-ups at the bathroom door, maybe most people really do like dancing just for the sake of dancing. This isn't to say that people shouldn't have the sexual times of their lives dancing tango, if they mutually want to. Good for them. They're being fully alive and fully human. Bravo. Some of us save this aspect of ourselves for that special person in our lives. Sweet tangos to all, however you dance it. Erika.

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:51:33 -0800
From: robin thomas <niborsamoht@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: black tinge and sex in tango/close embrace,bad technique

For example, it is common to see couples

> dancing in close embrace
> where the man bends forward moving his pelvis away
> from the woman, while
> keeping his chest close to the woman. Another
> example, is when the man
> copies the woman in certain movements and postures
> -- pulling the pelvis
> away from the embrace is a good example.

sorry to go off on a tangent but that kind of close
embrace (in my opinion is really bad technique).
neither the leader or follower should come forward
with just your chest. it should be your whole torso
including the hips otherwise your going to strain the
lower back of the follower. (i think) the hinge should
be at the ankles, not your waist. our hips belong
underneath us not behind us, just as our heads belong
on top of our own bodies and not leaning over our
partners.

elegant,healthy,sensual, and fun, close embraces to
all

robin thomas

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:55:05 -0800
From: markdavis <mark323334@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: black tinge and sex in tango

It appears to me that in discussing the sexual content
in Tango is irrelevant and childish, because
as in any human interaction that involves men and
women some people will see either a
sex opportunity, a sexual content, etc. This happens
in ANY dance, ANY gathering, whether it
is a cocktail party, or a church social, a political
rally or a plain gathering.
The sexual aspect is not in the activity, but in the
minds of some participants no matter where you are,
regardless what you are doing.
There are many people who attend any of the gatherings
I mentioned INCLUDING tango dances, who are primarily
interested in the social interaction, and
specifically in the case of dancing for the enjoyment
of dancing just for the sake of dancing, some because
they may find it rewarding to have learned something
that is considered to be rather difficult; others
because it is fulfilling to realize that you are
learning how to do it better today that you did it
last week, etc. Humans will dance for a million
different reasons and there is NO point in attempting
to categorize the reasons why people dance Tango and
or to find a sexual connotation as the main attraction
of Tango. It would certainly apply to some people but
by far not to be a generalization.

All and everyone of the dances involving men and women
have by nature an opportunity where males and females
alike have a chance of meeting . the same happens in
church as well. it is just human behavior period.
There is nothing unique in this respect that is not
also present in Waltz or square dancing or salsa or
any other dance for that matter.

Finally, race, color, or other attributes have nothing
to do with any of the above anyhow.

Mark

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:41:26 -0000
From: Alex <alejandro.delmonte@NTLWORLD.COM>
Subject: Re: black tinge and sex in tango

Of course tango is a sensual dance but what immediately cought my eye was a
whole different kettle of fish: its melancholy and meditative nature. Why
anybody mentions these? I guess that explains why I dislike tango fireworks
or 'kamasutra tango' --"we've tried all the postures". Exhibitionism is
unsophisticated. To me the best tango is self-effacing.

Alex in London, UK.

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:11:56 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Black tinge and sex in tango

Hilliard wrote:
As a married tanguera whose loving husband doesn't dance, I gasped as I
read Bruno's descriptions of "opening legs," etc. I thought, "Do you mean to
say that all those sacadas that I've received in the past were more than
just sacadas?" I wasn't sure I could ever dance another tango again. What a
relief to read Huck and John's refutation. And judging from the lack of
line-ups at the bathroom door, maybe most people really do like dancing just
for the sake of dancing.

I have also noticed the nonexistent lines at the bathroom door, and the
nonexistent lines of people waiting for each other when it is time to go
home. Most tangueros and tangueras here seem to leave alone, as a matter of
fact.
So, yes, most people just want to dance and playact (or hang out with
friends, listen to music, show off their clothes, or whatever)
However, and here comes my point, IMO it does help to understand what many
of the moves in tango actually mean, and how and under what circumstances
they were created. This isn't just another dance, like swing, waltz or
whatever.
If you watch closely, you will notice that those people who seem to be
unaware of the connotations of certain movements, perform them with a
strange lack of spirit, devoid of emotion, sort of "and now I stop with my
right foot in front of the man's left ankle, now I raise my foot three
inches and place it close to his ankle, before I step over. Have to remember
to perform a round step before I continue into No...."
Tango shows performed with this attitude look strangely sterile and cold.
And yes, the melancholy and meditative nature is definitely there too.
All these things are naturally not incomprehensible elements in other
cultures, but if the culture is very different from the Argentine, yes,
sometimes the dance looks different too.
Having said that, yes, the shows I saw were also performed by Argentines. I
believe, the sterile types had moved over into tango from another genre,
like ballroom maybe

Astrid

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:20:23 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Re: Black tinge and sex in tango

Dear Astrid and Listero/as,

IMO you are right about sterility-tango relation. I did 7 years of competitive ballroom and latin (and some ballet/jazz/contemporary at the =
same time) and I am doing tango now for several years. I was teaching both (I still teach tango).

The difference was quite striking even at the basics. I needed about a year to get use to the feeling of actually having responsibility for the =
lady and how she feels during dancing - in ballroom it is much more like 50-50. This also gave me something I consider important and loveable in =
tango: a sense of initimacy.

It is important, that FEELING and EMOTIONS are important even in ballet (and ballroom as well!), not just in tango. A really good dancer is =
always dancing with strong emotions (of course solo styles and ballroom is extroverted, so do not mix up emotions (inside) and feelings (shown) =
).

However, there is something that is almost completely missing from the other styles: intimacy. And according to both my experiences and my =
studies in psychology, intimacy with non-relatives is something that people (and especially men*) tend to connect to sexual matters. Judging =
from women's responses, they prefer when they feel intimate in tango over musicality, choreography, exactness or any other technical detail. =
(of course there is a connection between the these and the way I create the sense of intimacy, but this is an other story) The only thing that =
precedes (in my experience) intimacy for a women in tango is a sort of security (I cannot define it in one word: the sense, that she is able to =
do anything - even things she never even heard about - with great security, without even wanting it...a sort of - it is happening to her =
rather than lead by the leader.), which greately resembles a sort of "seduction": women tend to prefer when they just fall in love with no =
explanation, no reasons attached (again: in my experience and my opinion. At least: just try to give a scientificly found explanation to =
a women WHY they fell in love...you gonna have a hard time). And these things are sexual in nature again.

*men and intimacy: since men receive (as opposed to women) the "definition" of intimacy from the opposite sex (from their mothers) and =
also, because society (even in a more emancipated one) boys are socialized to suppress their emotions a lot more than girls, the =
peculiar situation appears that while girls "understand" the concept of being close, open, emotional, intimate (asexualy) to a non-relative =
(opposite or same sex), it is very scarce thing between male children. Also, the natural male-male competition limits emotional responses =
between males. In most cases intimacy exists only between mother and son (if any) for males until puberty. All the above is synthesised from =
basic psychology and some social studies, they are not my ideas (if I misinterpreted something, tell me so). IMO For me it is absolutely =
natural to make a two-way connection between sexual interest and intimacy. Thus I try to reach a high level of intimacy with the person I =
am sexually interested in and vice versa: if I reach a high level of intimacy with a person of the opposite sex I get sexually interested in =
her. Of course this has some implicit things as well: I don't reach a high level (or any) of intimacy with males, while intimacy with a women =
always implies that I can accept her as she is (including personality and looks). With this I just wanted to emphasize, that sex and tango =
(for most men) has a link, even if some of us doesn't translate his own responses "sexual". Sexuality is not just what happens in bed. Also: I =
did not mean with this that an exeptional tanda with a lady will have me aroused. A tango does not replace a real connection. But it will =
probably make me interested to investigate further... :)


Best wishes to all,
Aron


> -----Original Message-----
> From: astrid [mailto:astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 3:12 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Black tinge and sex in tango
>
>
> Hilliard wrote:
> As a married tanguera whose loving husband doesn't dance, I
> gasped as I read Bruno's descriptions of "opening legs,"
> etc. I thought, "Do you mean to say that all those sacadas
> that I've received in the past were more than just sacadas?"
> I wasn't sure I could ever dance another tango again. What a
> relief to read Huck and John's refutation. And judging from
> the lack of line-ups at the bathroom door, maybe most people
> really do like dancing just for the sake of dancing.
>
> I have also noticed the nonexistent lines at the bathroom
> door, and the nonexistent lines of people waiting for each
> other when it is time to go home. Most tangueros and
> tangueras here seem to leave alone, as a matter of fact. So,
> yes, most people just want to dance and playact (or hang out
> with friends, listen to music, show off their clothes, or
> whatever) However, and here comes my point, IMO it does help
> to understand what many of the moves in tango actually mean,
> and how and under what circumstances they were created. This
> isn't just another dance, like swing, waltz or whatever. If
> you watch closely, you will notice that those people who
> seem to be unaware of the connotations of certain movements,
> perform them with a strange lack of spirit, devoid of
> emotion, sort of "and now I stop with my right foot in front
> of the man's left ankle, now I raise my foot three inches
> and place it close to his ankle, before I step over. Have to
> remember to perform a round step before I continue into
> No...." Tango shows performed with this attitude look
> strangely sterile and cold. And yes, the melancholy and
> meditative nature is definitely there too. All these things
> are naturally not incomprehensible elements in other
> cultures, but if the culture is very different from the
> Argentine, yes, sometimes the dance looks different too.
> Having said that, yes, the shows I saw were also performed
> by Argentines. I believe, the sterile types had moved over
> into tango from another genre, like ballroom maybe
>
> Astrid
>
> ----------
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to Tango-A
> rather than to Tango-L, since you can indicate the region.
> To subscribe to Tango-A, send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname
> Lastname" to LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> ----------
>