3430 Blacks and tango III
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 16:40:56 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Blacks and tango III
Dear Bruno,
Thank you for your honesty and integrity to acknowledge
that you were at least partially erroneous when you said "tango was the
creation of Black slaves".
My initial answer was that all modern ballroom dances originated in the
American Continent (except for a few, that originated in Europe) by an
interaction between African and European forces.
So we have Jazz, swing, rock &roll, blues from North America, Bolero,
cha-cha, mambo, rumba from Cuba, Salsa (actually a variation of mambo) from
Puerto Rico, Cumbia from Colombia, Samba from Brazil, Tango, milonga, vals
from Argentina. All the other nations of the continent have their own
variations of Ballroom dances.
Black dances such as Candombe were already described by me in detail in
another note. They are done without embrace, women and men dance apart from
each other with little or very primitive choreography or plainly in free
style. I have seen Candombe in Uruguay myself, they still dance the same way
as before to the rhythm of the drums.
If we were to hypothesize that ballroom dances were originated by blacks, do
not you think that they would have been born in Africa rather than in
America?
Africa produced no ballroom dance, they all originated in the American
Continent due to the interaction of the two cultures.
You should not be mislead by the use of the world tango, for it is used, as
Aron says, in reference to places and dances that had nothing to do with our
tango.
The government of Buenos Aires decreed in 1807 that Tangos, their Candombes
and other dances done by blacks are forbidden inside or outside of the city
due to their immorality, and fro preservation of decency. Established a
penalty of one month of public service for those that disobeyed.
There is documentation that the Cabildo of Montevideo (city hall) as early
as 1811 forbade "the tangos and dances of blacks" as they were noisy and
interfered with public order and decorum.
This is a reference to the places were blacks danced and also to their
dances that had nothing to do with our tango.
The word tango was used in Spain, in Mexico and in many countries were
existed slaves before than in Argentina. Slave traders also called "Tango"
the place(both in Africa and in America) were they held the slaves to be
transported or to be sold.
Spain used this word to describe a way of singing similar to flamenco "Tango
Espanol".
PS. In another note I will discuss your sources: Andres Carretero's Book
"Tango Testigo social" and also the web page you kindly provided.
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 12:20:55 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Blacks and tango III + Tip on Quebrada
Hi Sergio:
>PS. In another note I will discuss your sources: Andres Carretero's Book
"Tango Testigo social" and also the web page you kindly provided.<
My 2 cents:
I think we will only be going back and forth trying to prove or disprove
each other based on the information you and I have.
Other comments:
>Black dances such as Candombe were already described by me in detail in
another note. They are done without embrace, women and men dance apart from
each other with little or very primitive choreography or plainly in free
style. I have seen Candombe in Uruguay myself, they still dance the same way
as before to the rhythm of the drums.<
My comments:
What I have read is that the Candombe danced in Uruguay was not he same as
the one danced in Argentina. One of the prominent features of the Candombe
in Argentina was that they used their shoulders. You have to remember that
blacks came from different groups, which eventually band together in what is
called "Naciones" or "Cofradias".
The Candombe in Argentina did not remain a dance with a static choreography,
it absorbed the choreographies of other dances of the times. It has been
reported that by 1860 blacks danced waltz in a close embraced, a style later
called "a la francesa".
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
A simple way to do a Quebrada is:
1. Feet together.
2. Step back with right or left foot.
3. Put weight on the back foot.
4. Keep knees together
5. Raise the tip of the foot a tiny bit of the floor
6. Keep your open as if embracing a woman.
7. Step forward with the back foot and across the foot that was initially in
front.
8. Twist your waist to the left about 15 degrees.
9. Exaggerate the torsion if you like by flexing the knees a bit more.
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:05:56 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Blacks and tango III + Tip on Quebrada
Re:
>A simple way to do a Quebrada is:
>1. Feet together.
>2. Step back with right or left foot.
>3. Put weight on the back foot.
>4. Keep knees together
>5. Raise the tip of the foot a tiny bit of the floor
>6. Keep your open as if embracing a woman.
>7. Step forward with the back foot and across the foot that was initially
>in
>front.
>8. Twist your waist to the left about 15 degrees.
>9. Exaggerate the torsion if you like by flexing the knees a bit more.
---
And what is the follower doing during all this?
And some detailed clarification:
5: lift the tip of which foot? your "front" foot, ie. not the one that you
put weight on in #3?
6: I don't understand the wording on this item...
7: If you've stepped back say with the right in #2, and xferred your weight,
then in order to go forward with this same foot you somewhere have to put
weight back on your L foot, perhaps by doing a rock of weight forward?
8: twisting to the left assumes you've stepped back with the right?
Thanks,
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:57:46 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Blacks and tango III + Tip on Quebrada
My reply on Jay Rabe's on the Quebrada:
A simple way to do a Quebrada (edited with * *) is:
1. Feet together.
2. Step back with right or left foot.
3. Put weight on the back foot.
4. Keep knees together
5. Raise the tip of the *front* foot a tiny bit of the floor
6. Keep your arms *open* as if embracing a woman.
7. Step forward with the back foot and across the foot that was initially
in front.
8. Twist your waist to the left about 15 degrees.
9. Exaggerate the torsion if you like by flexing the knees a bit more.
>And what is the follower doing during all this?<
She mirrors your steps. The closer the embrace is the better. The Quebrada
**ends** with cheeks together. It is a pause in the dance. You can do an
initial Quebrada from step # 4. If you choose not do a Quebrada in step 4,
then the first 4 steps will help you to position your body the one described
in the last steps.
From Vicente Rossi's book, Cosa de Negros:
If you want do a Quebrada using an old choreography the way the blacks
danced ask the woman to put her arm around your neck with her hand draped
(open) over your shoulder. Your right hand is around her waist with your
open hand resting above her tail bone. Cup her right hand with your left
hand and position it to the left side and slightly back of your waist.
>And some detailed clarification<
5: lift the tip of which foot? your "front" foot, ie. not the one that you
put weight on in #3?
Yes, front foot.
>6: I don't understand the wording on this item...<
it is with open arms as if embracing an imaginary woman.
>7: If you've stepped back say with the right in #2, and xferred your
weight, then in order to go forward with this same foot you somewhere have
to put weight back on your L foot, perhaps by doing a rock of weight
forward?
Yes, you step back first to position yourself so when you go forward the
next movement becomes more pronounced, and will bring the woman closer to
you i.e., cheek to cheek.
8: twisting to the left assumes you've stepped back with the right?
Yes, that's right.
Best regards,
Bruno
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 18:56:09 -0400
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: Blacks and tango III
Sergio wrote:
My initial answer was that all modern ballroom dances originated in the
American Continent (except for a few, that originated in Europe) by an
interaction between African and European forces.
I may be wrong, but from everything I've ever learned and studied about the history of ballroom dance, as a genre and a school of dance, not necessarily what has developed in social dance - like swings styles and latin styles - is that Ballroom was developed by the English, not the Americans. There's actually an British dancer, who's name I can't recall right now, who was the first to develop a "Ballroom Dance Syllabus". Apparently he travelled around the world examining different dance styles from various cultures to create the Ballroom dances (which all roots come from some other place than England obviously). And if you examine the dances themselves, you will see combinations of traditional dance styles...for example ballroom samba "steps" are a combination of various Brazilian dance forms. One of the first well-known Ballroom teams, who helped to bring Ballroom to the rest of the world, were the Castles, were from England. I know they were around in the 1910's. So the
British form of Ballroom dancing was developed in the early 1900's, and became a regular part of British culture by the 1920's-30's. The American form started to take hold about this time, in the 1930's, specifically with people like Arthur Murray who helped to popularize it.
Nicole
Miami
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:03:34 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Blacks and tango III
Dear Sergio and Bruno:
Thank you both again for this excellent discussion of
tango history. I think you are both right. The
blacks may have created the original tango, but
without the whites and other colors to popularize it,
and add their own cultural tastes to it (ie: the
bandondeon etc...), the dance would have perhaps been
forgotten altogether. The blacks needed the whites
and the whites needed the blacks to make it all work.
There were just not enough blacks in Argentina to make
the dance popular in the general population without
modifications.
In the US, the same thing happened with rock n roll.
Elvis Presley's manager, "the Colonel", was looking
for a white guy who could sing and dance like the
blacks and add something to that. He discovered Elvis.
Elvis added his culture to what was happening. The
Colonel knew that the blacks were only a small segment
of the US population and they would not "make the
market" for rock n roll. Without Elvis things would
have been different.
I think that is it safe to say that the blacks created
tango, even gave it a name, the Argentines of all
backgrounds added to it, and finally, the French and
Hollywood made it popular worldwide. What do you
think?
PS- I think adding new ideas and cultures to tango is
always great, as long as the original history is not
re-written.
PPS- Interesting that the blacks danced "apart", and
the waltz is danced "close embrace".
PPPS- What it the big deal about the tango dance halls
in Argentina being brothels? In the US and
Argentinian in the 1870's, it was normal to have
brothels in saloons. The US was just as wild as
Argentina.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 Cell
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:
> Dear Bruno,
> Thank you for your honesty and
> integrity to acknowledge
> that you were at least partially erroneous when you
> said "tango was the
> creation of Black slaves".
Derik Rawson
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
https://www.rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 USA Landline Direct to Portable Cell Phone
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