3424 Blacks and tango (long)
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 16:49:04 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Blacks and tango (long)
Dear friends of the list,
I find Jean-Pierre's note very insulting, a
misinterpretation of my intentions . He is trying to make me pass as a
racist which I am not, actually I am the opposite.
I was born and educated in Argentina. I may have seen three or four black
people in my entire life while I was there. One of my aunts married one of
the them, an excellent person and great tango dancer.There was no reason for
us to have any prejudice as most of us had never seen a Black person. That
sort of prejudice is foreign to us. I never heard anyone talking with
disrespect about a black person, quite the opposite, people feel attracted
by rarity. They like what it is uncommon.
This is the case in Argentina.
I think that human beings are just that, humans, it does not matter what
side of the boundary they were born, what the color of the skin is, what
religion or sexual preference they have, if they are poor or rich. To me a
human is a human deserving appreciation and respect.
I read Bruno's note, felt that it was inaccurate and tried to present the
facts as I understood them to be. My presentation gave the black historical
component a great preponderance, I merely was surprised that Bruno said that
tango had been created by slaves.
#1 - I stated that most of the ballroom dances were born by an interaction
of African and European elements.
Tango is not exception. The exceptions I mentioned were Viennese Waltz,
Polka and Mazurca.
I mentioned blacks made and still make great contributions to music, dance
and sports.
#2 - I presented Candombe, a dance of blacks, as one of the three roots of
tango. I stated that tango as a dance was born from that invented by
compadritos as they imitated the candombe done by blacks for fun.
#3 - I presented habanera as one of the three roots of tango, a dance called
"de ida y vuelta" - " a dance that went and came back" meaning that it was
born in Spain, went to Cuba where it was changed then returned to Spain and
finally reached Argentina. I added that in Cuba it probably had African
influences.
#4 - I presented Milonga as a creation of gauchos, caucasian or of mixed
race (Indian and Spaniard).
Brunos stated:
"Many historians agree that Tango was created by blacks, most of them were
slaved or trying to pay out their owners for their freedom."
He also added that the Payadores - originators of the milonga were all
black.
I read many books about Argentine history (I had several years of Argentine
history in school) and about Tango history as well, I never read such a
thing.
***I challenge Bruno and Jean Pierre to give us a bibliography where such
statements are made so that we all can analyze them.
Derik says:
"Dear All, Excellent discussion about the history of
tango. I also heard that tango is not a dance. It is a
place. One does not dance tango. One goes to the
tango. The tango was the place where the whites would
go to watch the blacks dance. Elvis Presley and his
friends did the same thing here in the US and we got
rock n roll by white guys. Derik"
Jean_Pierre I could be wrong but I think that in your ignorance you
misinterpreted this note as well:
Tango was a word of an African language that meant 'corral' , a closed
place, by extension blacks called "tango" to a place of reunion, to a place
where their dances were held. It was later on that by extension the word was
associated with the dance itself. so tango means a place and a dance.
the same occurred with milonga, it was an African word meaning "many words"
. Blacks used that word in reference to the "Payadas" ( a sort of
competition that gauchos had improvising in verse while playing the guitar )
since blacks did not understand they called "milonga" in time the word
replaced "payada" and by extension was applied to the dance that followed
the verse competition and also to the place where this took place. Most of
those meanings are still in use.
Then he draws a parallel between what happened with tango and what occurred
with rock&roll.
I do not feel Derik disagreed with my interpretation quite the opposite.
Dear Jean-Pierre I hope you may do some review of the material presented and
recognize your error in applying to me prejudices that I do not have.
Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 20:02:45 -0700
From: Jean-Pierre Sighe <jpsighe@SIGHES.COM>
Subject: Re: Blacks and tango (long)
No time with the whining!
Let's indulge in some good analytical exercise of your points, Sergio ok? :
Number one : after reading Bruno's posting you wrote in disagreement : >>>
Point #2: Blacks did not create tango. It is true that most of the
ballroomdances appeared due to an interaction between African and
Europeaninfluences.>>>
Let's keep that in mind.
Number two: It is admitted that Blacks had their own places where they
gathered to do their dancing. You don't seem to dispute that. It is also
said that they danced Candombe; It is equally admitted that they called
their places of dancing "Tango". We are told that Whites would go watch them
dance. Question: Is Candombe the ONLY dance these fine Black fellows were
dancing?
For people who enjoy dancing so much, it would be very strange to me that
once they got to Buenos Aires, they all of a sudden lost interest in other
dance-forms. This would be a very peculiar behavior. Black people invent
dance-forms ALL the time.
Number three: The Whites folks, who by now enjoy very much going to the
"Tango" to watch the Blacks dance are beginning to imitate them. They like
it so much that they later call their own dance the SAME name the Blacks
(who are marginalized by the way) have been calling their place of dancing.
At this point, some pages in history that would have shown the logical
progression from the Whites going to the "Tango", to them calling their own
dance "Tango", have mysteriously disappeared. It is now "very difficult to
really" tell how the "Tango" popped up in the Whites halls. Let's remember
that the singers and other musicians are occasionally Black (as reported by
other writers) :)
I'd submit to you, Sir, that there must have been a good resemblance between
what the Blacks were doing ( besides the distinsct Candombe dancing) and
whatever the White folks started doing later...The resemblance ought to have
been vivid for them (the Whites) to call it "Tango".
So, your adamant assertion is disingenuous, to say the least. You even later
try to downplay the number of Blacks in Buenos Aires...you downplay the
obvious influence of the Black culture in the Cuban habanera... You seem
very selective in the historical references that give Black some role in the
making of Tango.
Sir, the sad thing about prejudiced people is that they think they can hide
their problem. Claiming that some aunt of yours married "one of them..." as
you put it, as if to demonstrate that you are not a prejudiced fellow is
just pathetic. Yes, you are definitely one of these prejudiced SOBs out
there who have so much hatred and insecurities in their hearts when it comes
to Black folks, that they cannot stand reading that Blacks have created
something so widely admired by White people.
In the Army of Bonaparte entering Egypt, you would have been among the
soldiers who broke the nose of the sphinx to remove the evidence of the
Black nose it had. Until today people are refusing to admit that the ancient
Egyptians were Black, even after Herodotus (uncontested) visiting Egypt and
other parts of Africa at around 480 and 425 B.C. (when the golden era of
Egypt was over after it had already suffered several invasions) described
Egypt as a Black nation ...If Egypt was a Black nation after the invasions
wouldn't that logically demonstrate that before the invasions the nation was
even more so?
And when you say : >>> I mentioned blacks made and still make great
contributions to music, danceand sports. >>> ,You "forget" to mention the
Science and Technology areas, Sir. May be when you go to the libraries to
pick history books, you avoid opening the ones that would mention these
facts to you. It would be of a great shock to your poor brain, wouldn't it!
What a racist you are!
I propose again that if the truth is too hard for you to take, let's just
declare that "Blacks have NEVER create or even contributed to the creation
of Tango. It was all done by the White folks" That way you can rest at
peace in your prejudiced world. I re-affirm that you are definitely a
prejudiced fellow. You can hardly fool any one. All one has to do is read
you...
Jean-Pierre
-------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 9:49 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Blacks and tango (long)
Dear friends of the list,
I find Jean-Pierre's note very insulting, a
misinterpretation of my intentions . He is trying to make me pass as a
racist which I am not, actually I am the opposite.
I was born and educated in Argentina. I may have seen three or four black
people in my entire life while I was there. One of my aunts married one of
the them, an excellent person and great tango dancer.There was no reason for
us to have any prejudice as most of us had never seen a Black person. That
sort of prejudice is foreign to us. I never heard anyone talking with
disrespect about a black person, quite the opposite, people feel attracted
by rarity. They like what it is uncommon.
This is the case in Argentina.
Keep unwanted email out.
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