5340 Boleo/ contra-boleo
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:27:22 -0500
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Subject: [Tango-L] Boleo/ contra-boleo
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: ipolk@virtuar.com
<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C70215239F@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Igor asked about the difference. I am sure he knows boleos, so I am
posting at the risk of a retort claiming they are both technically
boleos, but here goes:
I think of leading boleos in two ways:
1. by moving my torso and frame "with" the womans pivot, in the
same direction either clockwise (cw) or counterclockwise (ccw), and
stopping or changing my torso direction once her hips pass the fail-safe
point; or
2. "against" (contra) her rotation, ie., start by leading her to
pivot on one foot cw and then after fail safe point generate boleo by
moving my torso and frame counterclockwise (ccw). Or vice versa.
Okay so both of these are boleos. Entonces, maybe what Igor is asking
about is a double boleo, as in leading a left front boleo followed
immediately be a left back boleo, which can be continued indefinitely,
(but practically more than three is overkill). Some people call these
"contra" boleos, even though these could be led either with or against.
But its easier for me, and feels better, to lead multiple boleos as
"against" boleos.
-Martin Nussbaum
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:00:23 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Boleo/ contra-boleo
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
This is a difficult concept, to be sure, but here's my take on it. This
is just my way of conceptualizing and thinking about it. I'm sure there are other valid ways as well.
Let's say we're talking about a follower's left back boleo, meaning she is using her left foot.
I think about it like this: Any boleo requires a change in direction of
rotation (or more precisely a sharp acceleration in rotation). In a
normal boleo you "wind her up" CCW, then rotate her sharply back CW to
generate the kick of the boleo with her free left foot.
In a contra boleo, you don't do the CCW wind-up, you just rotate her
sharply CW (usually by a big step around her). The "change of
direction" is a defacto change to CW rotation from a relatively
stable/standing/stationary position (or it is a rapid acceleration in
CW rotational velocity)
To go further, she doesn't really need to be stationary either, as you
can use any "residual" or default CCW rotational momentum from whatever
previous step to do the contra boleo as well.
J
TangoMoments.com
> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:27:22 -0500
> From: mnussbau@law.nyc.gov
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> CC: ipolk@virtuar.com
> Subject: [Tango-L] Boleo/ contra-boleo
>
> Igor asked about the difference. I am sure he knows boleos, so I am
> posting at the risk of a retort claiming they are both technically
> boleos, but here goes:
> I think of leading boleos in two ways:
> 1. by moving my torso and frame "with" the womans pivot, in the
> same direction either clockwise (cw) or counterclockwise (ccw), and
> stopping or changing my torso direction once her hips pass the fail-safe
> point; or
> 2. "against" (contra) her rotation, ie., start by leading her to
> pivot on one foot cw and then after fail safe point generate boleo by
> moving my torso and frame counterclockwise (ccw). Or vice versa.
>
> Okay so both of these are boleos. Entonces, maybe what Igor is asking
> about is a double boleo, as in leading a left front boleo followed
> immediately be a left back boleo, which can be continued indefinitely,
> (but practically more than three is overkill). Some people call these
> "contra" boleos, even though these could be led either with or against.
> But its easier for me, and feels better, to lead multiple boleos as
> "against" boleos.
>
> -Martin Nussbaum
>
>
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:50:03 -0500
From: "Jacob Eggers" <eggers.pierola@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Boleo/ contra-boleo
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<dfa4cf020712131650m7444e36rc75871457bcba815@mail.gmail.com>
here is my take from a previously private email to igor:
My understanding is that:
both types of boleos start with a follower's pivot and then:
* for contra boleos the leader changes the direction of the follower's pivot
sending the free leg out and up
* for "with" boleos the leader stops the rotation of the upper torso and
allows the momentum of the free leg to continue wrapping around the standing
leg.
The extra contra energy generates centrifugal force and sends the free leg
away from the center of the pivot. Without the contra energy, the leg is not
sent out, but only around.
The mechanics of the knee only allow the free leg to wrap around the
standing leg during the front boleo. For this reason back boleos are best
led contra.
And, in my opinion forward boleos feel best when done without the contra
motion, it keeps the free leg nice and tightly wrapped around the standing
leg. And, it keeps the leg close to the axis in the unwrapping process as
well.
j
On Dec 13, 2007 6:00 PM, Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:
> This is a difficult concept, to be sure, but here's my take on it. This
> is just my way of conceptualizing and thinking about it. I'm sure there
> are other valid ways as well.
>
>
>
>
> Let's say we're talking about a follower's left back boleo, meaning she is
> using her left foot.
>
>
>
> I think about it like this: Any boleo requires a change in direction of
> rotation (or more precisely a sharp acceleration in rotation). In a
> normal boleo you "wind her up" CCW, then rotate her sharply back CW to
> generate the kick of the boleo with her free left foot.
>
>
>
> In a contra boleo, you don't do the CCW wind-up, you just rotate her
> sharply CW (usually by a big step around her). The "change of
> direction" is a defacto change to CW rotation from a relatively
> stable/standing/stationary position (or it is a rapid acceleration in
> CW rotational velocity)
>
>
>
> To go further, she doesn't really need to be stationary either, as you
> can use any "residual" or default CCW rotational momentum from whatever
> previous step to do the contra boleo as well.
>
>
>
> J
>
> TangoMoments.com
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:27:22 -0500
> > From: mnussbau@law.nyc.gov
> > To: tango-l@mit.edu
> > CC: ipolk@virtuar.com
> > Subject: [Tango-L] Boleo/ contra-boleo
> >
> > Igor asked about the difference. I am sure he knows boleos, so I am
> > posting at the risk of a retort claiming they are both technically
> > boleos, but here goes:
> > I think of leading boleos in two ways:
> > 1. by moving my torso and frame "with" the womans pivot, in the
> > same direction either clockwise (cw) or counterclockwise (ccw), and
> > stopping or changing my torso direction once her hips pass the fail-safe
> > point; or
> > 2. "against" (contra) her rotation, ie., start by leading her to
> > pivot on one foot cw and then after fail safe point generate boleo by
> > moving my torso and frame counterclockwise (ccw). Or vice versa.
> >
> > Okay so both of these are boleos. Entonces, maybe what Igor is asking
> > about is a double boleo, as in leading a left front boleo followed
> > immediately be a left back boleo, which can be continued indefinitely,
> > (but practically more than three is overkill). Some people call these
> > "contra" boleos, even though these could be led either with or against.
> > But its easier for me, and feels better, to lead multiple boleos as
> > "against" boleos.
> >
> > -Martin Nussbaum
> >
> >
>
> The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox
> 360 Console.
> https://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/
>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:33:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Boleo/ contra-boleo
To: tango-l@mit.edu
And, one surprising aspect, for the woman, is that if it is led correctly, her foot will wind far enough around to hit you in your thigh! They tend to like the fact that they appear so flexible.
Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote: This is a difficult concept, to be sure, but here's my take on it. This
is just my way of conceptualizing and thinking about it. I'm sure there are other valid ways as well.
Let's say we're talking about a follower's left back boleo, meaning she is using her left foot.
I think about it like this: Any boleo requires a change in direction of
rotation (or more precisely a sharp acceleration in rotation). In a
normal boleo you "wind her up" CCW, then rotate her sharply back CW to
generate the kick of the boleo with her free left foot.
In a contra boleo, you don't do the CCW wind-up, you just rotate her
sharply CW (usually by a big step around her). The "change of
direction" is a defacto change to CW rotation from a relatively
stable/standing/stationary position (or it is a rapid acceleration in
CW rotational velocity)
To go further, she doesn't really need to be stationary either, as you
can use any "residual" or default CCW rotational momentum from whatever
previous step to do the contra boleo as well.
J
TangoMoments.com
> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:27:22 -0500
> From: mnussbau@law.nyc.gov
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> CC: ipolk@virtuar.com
> Subject: [Tango-L] Boleo/ contra-boleo
>
> Igor asked about the difference. I am sure he knows boleos, so I am
> posting at the risk of a retort claiming they are both technically
> boleos, but here goes:
> I think of leading boleos in two ways:
> 1. by moving my torso and frame "with" the womans pivot, in the
> same direction either clockwise (cw) or counterclockwise (ccw), and
> stopping or changing my torso direction once her hips pass the fail-safe
> point; or
> 2. "against" (contra) her rotation, ie., start by leading her to
> pivot on one foot cw and then after fail safe point generate boleo by
> moving my torso and frame counterclockwise (ccw). Or vice versa.
>
> Okay so both of these are boleos. Entonces, maybe what Igor is asking
> about is a double boleo, as in leading a left front boleo followed
> immediately be a left back boleo, which can be continued indefinitely,
> (but practically more than three is overkill). Some people call these
> "contra" boleos, even though these could be led either with or against.
> But its easier for me, and feels better, to lead multiple boleos as
> "against" boleos.
>
> -Martin Nussbaum
>
>
The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console.
https://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 01:01:44 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Boleo/ contra-boleo
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I don't agree that if the woman's leg swings around too far and hits the man's leg, that this demonstrates that the Boleo has been led
correctly. On the contrary, it could easily demonstrate that the man has over-rotated or has injected too much energy into the lead. It
could also demonstrate that the lady is not yet skilled enough to control her Boleo. Either way, there's a problem.
It's important to remember that leading a snappy Boleo doesn't depend on force but on timing the change of direction precisely. And
after the sharp change of direction, it's important to slow the woman down so that the over-rotation described in the previous post
doesn't occur.
Keith, HK
On Fri Dec 14 8:33 , Tango For Her sent:
>And, one surprising aspect, for the woman, is that if it is led correctly, her foot will wind far enough around to hit you in your
thigh! They tend to like the fact that they appear so flexible.
>
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:35:15 -0700
From: <doug@swingfusion.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Boleo/ contra-boleo
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: keith@tangohk.com
keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
>> It's important to remember that leading a snappy Boleo doesn't depend on
>> force but on timing the change of direction precisely. And after the
>> sharp change of direction, it's important to slow the woman down so that
>> the over-rotation described in the previous post doesn't occur.
But change of direction need not be sharp. Can do wonderful, languorous
boleo with (relatively) slow change of direction. Contra-boleo involves no
change of direction. Only a rotational acceleration sufficient to leave
free leg behind. No??
D.
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:24:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Boleo/ contra-boleo
To: tango-l@mit.edu
And, one surprising aspect, for the woman, is that if it is led correctly, her foot will wind far enough around to hit you in your thigh! They tend to like the fact that they appear so flexible.
doug@swingfusion.com wrote: keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
>> It's important to remember that leading a snappy Boleo doesn't depend on
>> force but on timing the change of direction precisely. And after the
>> sharp change of direction, it's important to slow the woman down so that
>> the over-rotation described in the previous post doesn't occur.
But change of direction need not be sharp. Can do wonderful, languorous
boleo with (relatively) slow change of direction. Contra-boleo involves no
change of direction. Only a rotational acceleration sufficient to leave
free leg behind. No??
D.
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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:13:29 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Boleo/ contra-boleo
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Doug,
You're right, but I did say for ... "leading a snappy Boleo" ... not a
languorous one. In that case, it's unlikely that there would be a problem
with the woman's over-rotation, which was the subject of my post.
Keith, HK
On Sat Dec 15 5:35 , sent:
>keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
>
>>> It's important to remember that leading a snappy Boleo doesn't depend on
>>> force but on timing the change of direction precisely. And after the
>>> sharp change of direction, it's important to slow the woman down so that
>>> the over-rotation described in the previous post doesn't occur.
>
>But change of direction need not be sharp. Can do wonderful, languorous
>boleo with (relatively) slow change of direction. Contra-boleo involves no
>change of direction. Only a rotational acceleration sufficient to leave
>free leg behind. No??
>
>D.
>
>
