2412  Breaking Tradition.

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:45:49 -0400
From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Breaking Tradition.

Just wondering what people thought about either of these ideas:

A once/night Sadies Hawkin song where women would ask men to dance instead
of sticking to the Argentinian Tradition?


Wuld any of the women actually ask the men, and would the men be polite and
accept some of the requests? Or would no one like the idea.



There are 10 kinds of people, those that understand Binary and those that
don't.

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:50:52 -0500
From: donnay@DONNAY.NET
Subject: Re: Breaking Tradition.

> A once/night Sadies Hawkin song where women would ask men to
> dance instead of sticking to the Argentinian Tradition?

Are you under the idea that women don't ask men to dance in Argentina? That
eye game works both ways!!

> Wuld any of the women actually ask the men, and would the men
> be polite and accept some of the requests? Or would no one
> like the idea.

I once had a guy tell me that he didn't like to go to milongas too much
because so many women hounded him for dances. Not just one, but would ask
him again and again throughout the night. He wanted more freedom to choose
his dance partners, depending on the music and mood, (and, of course, he
tended to choose the better followers). I understood, although some women
thought him "stuck-up". He was responsible for the interpretation of the
dance, after all. And the leaders should get to enjoy dances, too!

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:14:45 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Breaking Tradition. (??)

A. Coleman wrote:

> > A once/night Sadies Hawkin song where women would ask men to
> > dance instead of sticking to the Argentinian Tradition?

> > Would any of the women actually ask the men, and would the men
> > be polite and accept some of the requests? Or would no one
> > like the idea.

Lois answered:

> I once had a guy tell me that he didn't like to go to milongas too much
> because so many women hounded him for dances.

Breaking tradition? What tradition? In all my life, I have never been forced
to move backwards so much in time as when I took on Argentine tango, and had
to play "the woman's part". Speak, a woman does not think, a woman does not
attempt to do things on her own, a woman has no right to complain, and a
woman sits pretty, shows cleavage, smiles coyly and waits for her knight in
shining armour to show up...
You must understand, that for a woman born in modern Europe, all of this is
very hard to get used to...
Would any of the women actually ask the men? Well, A.C., I do not know what
world you live in, but for all I know, lots of women are doing this already,
without waiting for Sadies Hawkin or anyone else to give them permission.
How the men think about this is another question.
I once asked my partner, why he never greets or talks to any of the women he
does not know personally at milongas. His answer: "I know from experience,
that if I talk to one woman, I have to dance with her, and then she will
introduce me to all her girlfriends, and I will have to dance with them too.
I am trying to avoid this as much as possible."
Now, while not every man may be as paranoid and in demand as my partner, I
would still like to know how other men feel about being asked to dance by
the women. So far, noone has answered the question above, (as to whether the
men would be polite etc.) as I noticed.

Astrid

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:10:24 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Breaking Tradition. (??)

> Breaking tradition? What tradition? In all my life, I have
> never been forced to move backwards so much in time as when I
> took on Argentine tango, and had to play "the woman's part".
> Speak, a woman does not think, a woman does not attempt to do
> things on her own, a woman has no right to complain, and a
> woman sits pretty, shows cleavage, smiles coyly and waits for
> her knight in shining armour to show up...

What?!? I don't know about every community, but in the ones I'm familiar
with, including (and especially) Bs.As., just look around at the best female
dancers. Sit pretty? Not complain? Smile coyly and wait? Not on your life.

This is one of the major misconceptions in tango - I have women tell me "I
don't think I'd like tango - I'm too strong of a women to just be led all
the time." Myself, I find a strength, freedom and power in following tango
that I don't find in other dances, where a man abdicates his responsibility
to lead by making the women learn her half of the pattern. Much of that is
derived from the freedom to not accept dances from leaders who are not
acceptable, for whatever reason the woman chooses.

Lois, Mpls

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 12:26:35 -0400
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: Breaking Tradition. (??)

astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:

>I would still like to know how other men feel about being asked to
>dance by the women.

Not a problem. I believe in equal opportunity. In fact, on the occasions when I go dancing with my wife, I've had women asking her permission to ask me to dance. ;-)

I have occasionally turned down invitations, mostly because I just need a rest. Not for my feet, but so I can cool down and not be sweaty and wet. Very seldom do I turn down an invitation because I did not want to dance with that particular women at the time. In fact, I think I have only done it once.

Personally, I wait for the music and then decide on the follower with whom I want to dance. Ladies, this is something that you should contemplate as well when you are initiating the invitation. The right music makes the experience that much more enjoyable for both.





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Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 11:30:29 -0700
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Breaking Tradition

Mr. Coleman wrote:

"Would any of the women actually ask the men, and
would
the men be polite and
accept some of the requests? Or would no one like the

idea."

They would, and they do, and everybody has a great
time! I have been at several milongas where the
host/hostess made this practice a regular part of the
evening, much to the delight of the women, but most
men seemed flattered by the attention they received.

And Mr. (Ms.?) Donnay wrote:

"I once had a guy tell me that he didn't like to go to

milongas too much
because so many women hounded him for dances. Not just

one, but would ask
him again and again throughout the night. He wanted
more freedom to choose
his dance partners, depending on the music and mood,
(and, of course, he
tended to choose the better followers). I understood,
although some women
thought him "stuck-up". He was responsible for the
interpretation of the
dance, after all. And the leaders should get to enjoy
dances, too!"

There are many very aggressive women on the tango
scene, unfortunately, (maybe the shortage of leaders
is partially to blame for this situation) which I have
observed myself, and I have listened to several men
complain about how crass and vulgar these women can be
in their approach. I've even come to their rescue on
occasion, especially when women in our community who
are notorious for this practice were involved. Nobody
likes to be "hounded" to dance, men or women. These
women should be treated the same as men who act in a
similar fashion. A man can say No just as much as a
woman if he is invited to dance when he doesn't feel
like it. I really don't believe in the tradition that
a man must always accept and only a woman can say No.
Women's Lib works both ways. If they can dish it it
out, they have to be prepared to take it. There is
really no reason for a man to avoid milongas because
he's afraid to be hounded to dance. That's
inexcusable. Of course the leader should enjoy
himself, that is a given. Who wants to dance with a
guy who doesn't really want to dance with you anyway?
I feel sorry for the women who are so desperate, and
have such low self-esteem, that they have to resort to
such crude practices. There are much more effective
ways for getting dances.

Luda


=====

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 15:13:22 -0500
From: Gibson Batch <gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Breaking Tradition. (??)

OK, I'll bite the hook and reply to this one.

As a man, I for one love to be asked to dance by a follower. It happens
often, and always accept or set a future time when we could dance.

I also don't like women who try to lead me or teach me on the floor, but
this has already been discussed recently on Tango-L by others more
experienced than myself.

But I did enjoy being lead in Tango by my follower a few times in class. It
was such a relief not to be thinking-thinking-thinking all the time about 3
things at once while trying to look natural. I could just focus on my
partner and the music. Eyes closed. If was very nice, and very different
from leading.

I get tired of Tango after an hour or so, not from the physical but the
mental. I get a sore head, or jittery, or fatigued, and I sit out.

As for ego....if you take that away from a man, then you take his ability to
Tango. Nothing is more challenging for me than dancing when my ego is
bruised, such as after a particularly bad dance (it is always the man's
fault, you know).

It is a total mind game out there, no? You have to feel like a million
bucks to get out in front of the world and make a potential fool out of
yourself. I think this holds for followers also, but more I think for
leaders.

Zorro
Minneapolis

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:17:20 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Breaking Tradition. (??)

In Argentina what I experienced was this. It was
likely the men would not ask me to dance unless they
had seen me dancing before. Even if I was looking at
them. So it was helpful at first, to have a few male
friends that I could ask to dance. Then once I had
been around the floor I would look at the men and they
would ask. It was difficult for me at first. It was
hard to get the right look . It seemed to me the
Argentinean women were relaxed and laid back and yet
their eyes were very sharp and they didn t miss a
thing when it came to telling which guys were
available, which were looking around and who they
wanted to dance with. I had heard from my male
friends that some of the foreign women were trying too
hard and were looking like puppy dogs, nearly jumping
out of their chairs, their eyes pleading dance with
me, dance with me . Well I didn t want to look like
that. So then I guess the opposite happened, because
I found I wasn t being asked to dance because I was
sitting there not paying attention. One night my male
friend said to me, Rose, what was up with you last
night? A couple of men came and told me that they
wanted to ask you to dance but were afraid because you
looked so unapproachable . Eventually I asked my
teacher about it, she said not to worry that everyone
goes through that, even the Argentinean women. That
the beautiful thing about the cabeceo is how politely
it works and yet there are also misunderstanding that
occur and intercepted glances. What I found was that
when I relaxed and enjoyed myself, I could target the
men I wanted and they would ask me.

Some people say that you can not lie in tango because
your body always tells the truth. I found it to be
the same with the cabeceo, your eyes can hold no
secrets. As much as I tried to fake it, on the nights
that I was tired, in a bad mood, or tense I would get
asked to dance far less often than the nights where I
was happy, relaxed and enjoying myself. It was in my
eyes. And who could blame them, I know that I was a
much more desirable partner when I was happy.

In Portland, it works a little differently. Sometimes
we use the cabeceo and other times we ask each other.
I have been going to the same milongas for several
years so I know most of the people there. There are
certain partners who I seek out when a waltz or a
milonga or Pugliese or D Arienzo etc. etc. comes on.
And since we know one another there is a mutual
delight in acknowledging to this music it had to be
you .

When there are new dancers in town that I have not
met, it will usually happen that one of my girlfriends
will dance with him and if I like the way he dances I
will ask her about him, or if she really likes his
dancing she will say something to me or another one of
our friends have you danced with him yet? He is
divine! etc. etc. and we will look at him and he
will ask us to dance.

If there is someone very new to tango that I want to
dance with I will usually go up to him and ask him
because new men are usually intimidated to ask someone
they don t know who is not a beginner. I have also
had male friends introduce me to new men and I am
happy to dance with them. Beginning men are very
important to me, they are what makes our community
grow. I have a lot of respect for men in tango, you
have to be willing to have your ego bruised and stick
with it. The way that the beginning men are treated
by the women can make all the difference in how
encouraged they are to stick with it and improve their
skills.

But back to asking and being asked. My experience in
Portland is that everyone is pretty friendly with one
another. The women ask the men and the men ask the
women. Sometimes it happens at the same time.
Sometimes you are talking with a guy and thinking that
eventually you would like to dance with him and one of
your girlfriends walks by and he asks her to dance
instead. Sometimes you are talking to one of your
girlfriends and a guy comes over that neither one of
you wants to dance with and so you decide to say,
sorry, but we were just going to dance together!
But it all happens naturally and there really aren t
any rules.

Both ways (the Argentinean way and the Portland way)
have their advantages and their disadvantages. But in
both the women do ask the men so I can not speak to
the question whether there should be a designated time
the women ask the men. The only time I have
experienced anything close is at a birthday dance,
where it is the man s birthday and all the women line
up around him and cut in while he dances one song.


Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR

Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:17:22 -0700
From: Phil Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: Breaking Tradition

Gibson Batch wrote:

>I also don't like women who try to lead me or teach me on the floor, but
>this has already been discussed recently on Tango-L by others more
>experienced than myself.

I know what you mean, Gibson, and I feel the same way about backleading
(unless I ask a woman to do it for instructional purposes. But I love it
when women actually lead me and allow me to assume the role of a follower. I
become a better leader when I improve my following skills.

Sometimes when a woman accepts a dance, I will ask, "Would you like to lead
or follow?" Why? Perhaps it was all that work I did with feminist Dorothy
Jongeward.

In Daniel Trenner's instructional videos, you often see him following and
his partner leading. They frequently exchange roles. But that's so rare!

Phil Seyer
https://www.argentine-tango.com



----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Breaking Tradition. (??)

> OK, I'll bite the hook and reply to this one.
>
> As a man, I for one love to be asked to dance by a follower. It happens
> often, and always accept or set a future time when we could dance.
>
> I also don't like women who try to lead me or teach me on the floor, but
> this has already been discussed recently on Tango-L by others more
> experienced than myself.
>
> But I did enjoy being lead in Tango by my follower a few times in class.

It

> was such a relief not to be thinking-thinking-thinking all the time about

3

> things at once while trying to look natural. I could just focus on my
> partner and the music. Eyes closed. If was very nice, and very different
> from leading.
>
> I get tired of Tango after an hour or so, not from the physical but the
> mental. I get a sore head, or jittery, or fatigued, and I sit out.
>
> As for ego....if you take that away from a man, then you take his ability

to

> Tango. Nothing is more challenging for me than dancing when my ego is
> bruised, such as after a particularly bad dance (it is always the man's
> fault, you know).
>
> It is a total mind game out there, no? You have to feel like a million
> bucks to get out in front of the world and make a potential fool out of
> yourself. I think this holds for followers also, but more I think for
> leaders.
>
> Zorro
> Minneapolis
>
>