5518  Bruno Alfonso post re Chicho's embrace

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:43:54 -0500
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Subject: [Tango-L] Bruno Alfonso post re Chicho's embrace
To: <bafonso@gmail.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C702482ADF@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

Bruno, the embrace used in the Chicho Poema clip is known as a "V"
embrace. It is actually used quite a lot by traditional salon dancers,
as well as more "modern" masters, such as Gustavo. It is much more
versatile than the flat-on, chest on chest embrace, in that transitions
and turns that might require a slight loosening of the embrace- to what
I call a "semi-open" embrace, result in an effect similar to the
breathing of the bandoneon, bellows opening and closing. From the
square on apilado embrace, such changes are more rare, if they occur at
all, because they would be far more abrupt and noticeable, also because
those who dance it really want to keep the apilado throughout the piece.
The v embrace also allows the woman to maintain her separate axis more,
especially if it is opened a little further in a giro. I am sure we
will see a lot of posts disagreeing with this, but I think the v embrace
sued by chicho lets the follower rotate her hips more in a turn, and
take bigger steps which allow for things like sacadas, whereas follower
in apilado tend to turn with hips kept facing more toward leader, which
causes turn steps to look like short back crosses. I may not be
explaining this very well, but you should experiment with different
types of embraces, you may find that you prefer a particular embrace for
some partners but not others, and for some music but not others.

" I very much enjoyed these Chicho's interpretations. Very lyrical and
sensitive to me. I have a naive question regarding his embrace. It is
not a very traditional apilado or at least what I kind of conceive as
a more traditional one, where the partners face each other more
"straight forward". I can see how this one looks more confortable for
certain moves and interpretations. '

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:30:31 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bruno Alfonso post re Chicho's embrace
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

I've noticed that excellent dancers of all styles use all kinds of
embraces:
- apilado to vertical,
- touching to open,
- almost symmetrical to slightly V to extremely V
- light arms to rigid arms.
- always close to variable embrace
- balance between independent axis or locking the axis using a
strong frame.

Each embrace has its benefits or restrictions. But, the embrace is
primarily a stylistic choice.

Certainly, remaining in a very close embrace makes the "no-pivot"
ochos crossing behind a useful technique. Conversely, spiraling and
opening slightly allows clearance for the woman's hips so she can
pivot. To me the woman's technique of doing ochos is the primary
differentiation between open and close embrace: does she have to crank
the pivot, or can she just float the leg.

From what I have noticed, it appears to me that dancers in Buenos
Aires have a MODERATE TENDENCY to use a little more V in the Frame and
a little more tilt to the apilado when compared with foreigners. They
have a STRONG TENDENCY to dance in a very close embrace, whether
always apilado or variable salon embrace.


V-Frame.

Not more versatile, just different.

This is certainly beneficial when one or the other of the partners has
a large stomach, or when the follower is a lot shorter than the
leader. Gustavo's partner is shorter than he is. I also notice that
Gustavo chooses a tango pinta (look) that matches the traditional
salon, even while his technique and training allow non-traditional
elements.

In general, the asymmetry of V-Frame makes a number of things more
difficult. Walking to the right of the follower may be easier, but
walking to the left is harder (requires a bigger twist). It is harder
to do the same thing to left and right

The biggest issue I have with V-Frame is that learning tango in a V
creates an asymmetrical foundation. When I dance with followers who
are locked into a hard V-frame, it feels rigid and hurtful to my back.
The traditional tango embrace is already a bit asymmetrical, so I feel
it is better to start with things as symmetric as possible, and then
use a "slight V" (in my preferred case), as a "pose on top of symmetry".




On Jan 28, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Nussbaum, Martin wrote:

> Bruno, the embrace used in the Chicho Poema clip is known as a "V"
> embrace. It is actually used quite a lot by traditional salon
> dancers,
> as well as more "modern" masters, such as Gustavo. It is much more
> versatile than the flat-on, chest on chest embrace, in that
> transitions
> and turns that might require a slight loosening of the embrace- to
> what
> I call a "semi-open" embrace, result in an effect similar to the
> breathing of the bandoneon, bellows opening and closing. From the
> square on apilado embrace, such changes are more rare, if they occur
> at
> all, because they would be far more abrupt and noticeable, also
> because
> those who dance it really want to keep the apilado throughout the
> piece.
> The v embrace also allows the woman to maintain her separate axis
> more,
> especially if it is opened a little further in a giro. I am sure we
> will see a lot of posts disagreeing with this, but I think the v
> embrace
> sued by chicho lets the follower rotate her hips more in a turn, and
> take bigger steps which allow for things like sacadas, whereas
> follower
> in apilado tend to turn with hips kept facing more toward leader,
> which
> causes turn steps to look like short back crosses. I may not be
> explaining this very well, but you should experiment with different
> types of embraces, you may find that you prefer a particular embrace
> for
> some partners but not others, and for some music but not others.

Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
Denver, CO 80207

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:14:38 -0600
From: Burak Ozkosem <buraktango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bruno Alfonso post re Chicho's embrace
To: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Tom explained the embrace topic very well.
If we look at the biomechanic perspective, we will see that Tango is
right handed dance, inner side of the embrace and outer side of thje
embrace are not symmetrical at all, so one could say that unless you cut
leader's left arm the embrace of tango remains eccentric.

Of course No-arm embrace is perfectly symmetrical.

Burak
Chicago
Tangoeclectique.com
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