5321  Buenos Aires Mystery

Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 16:23:28 EST
From: RoseHolly@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] Buenos Aires Mystery
To: tango-l@mit.edu


Hi everybody, this is my first post, though I've been reading the list for
several months. I've really enjoyed the wealth of information and experience
here...as well as all the drama surrounding it!
I'm a relative newbie (dancing for about 1 ? years) and recently returned

>from my first trip to Buenos Aires. I had a wonderful time, but one thing

happened that mystified me, and I'm hoping you can shed some light.
I had been to a few milongas in town already, danced my little heart out,
and found everything to more or less fit my expectations. Then one night, I went
to Salon Canning. I was with a friend I had met in Buenos Aires, not a local
but a Mexican man who spends a month of every year there working on his
technique, knows a lot of people and is a very good dancer.
My friend had reserved a table, and we were seated at the outer edge, next
to an adorable local couple who'd been married over 50 years and had gone
there to hear a little music. It was around midnight, and the live music hadn't
started yet. The floor was fairly full but not crowded yet. My friend went to
change his shoes and pay his respects to various important people, and other
than chatting with the nice older couple, I was careful not to make eye
contact with anybody. It was my first time there, I didn't know the crowd or the
floor, and I wanted my first tanda to be with my friend.
This is where the mystery began. Within a few minutes of my friend leaving
me at our table, a man tapped me on my shoulder, from behind. When I looked
around he asked me to dance. I was quite taken aback and explained
apologetically (in my bad Spanish) that I was saving my first dance for the gentleman I
had arrived with, at which point this man fell all over himself apologizing
for having asked. In the 10 minutes my friend was gone, this happened twice
more, each time being tapped from behind and verbally invited to dance, and each
time the man was extremely apologetic, even mortified, when I declined
(always by explaining I was saving the first dance for my gentleman friend). What
gives?
I would be tempted to write them off as clueless Americans, but they didn't
appear to be such, which is to say, they were all quite charming and
reserved, well groomed, wearing nice suits, and native Spanish speakers. (No offense
intended to my fellow clueless Americans, but I hope you know what I mean,
and of course you are not all clueless.) One of them used the word ?sorry? in
English but beyond that it was all Porteno-accented Spanish (as far as my
untrained ear could distinguish).
As I had just arrived, these men had no way of knowing whether I could dance
my way out of a paper bag. Is it possible there were some other women there
that these men were hoping to impress, so they were going to take any old
newcomer (me) for a spin just so they could display their wares and move on to
the women they wanted to win dances with?
Up to this point (at the other milongas I'd already visited in town) I'd
been quite charmed by the cabeceo, and felt a little thrill every time I got the
nod. But this was something else entirely, and sort of put me on edge. What
is the proper response (if there is one) when such a thing happens? I'd hate
to step on anyone?s toes (so to speak) but I also don't want to perpetuate bad
manners.
Did they have bad manners? Did I have bad manners? Is it assumed that this
is how one must ask foreigners (me) to dance, who might not know the customs?
Even if that is the case, why would they want to dance with someone who'd
just arrived (me), who might turn out to be a menace on the dance floor? I
tried to discuss it with my kindly table neighbors, but either my Spanish was
insufficient or they did not consider it worthy of comment, as they just rolled
their eyes and waved their hands.
I hope it will be found worthy of comment here, maybe with a little eye
rolling and hand waving thrown in for excitement. Many thanks.
Holly Rose, Berkeley



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(https://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 16:51:44 EST
From: MACFroggy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Buenos Aires Mystery
To: RoseHolly@aol.com, tango-l@mit.edu

Hi Holly,

What you experienced is very common: local men think that foreign women don't
know the codigos (and many don't), and so approach their tables to ask them
to dance. Often these men can't get local women to dance with them. Or they
just hope to profit from a newby's first time at a Buenos Aires milonga.

The proper response is, "no, gracias."
Punto final.

Please don't worry about it. You were absolutely correct by declining. No
explanation necessary.

https://tangocherie.blogspot.com/


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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 19:18:39 -0300 (ART)
From: Maria de los Angeles Olivera <ma_olivera@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Buenos Aires Mystery
To: tango-l@mit.edu

I agree with this explanation. Probably you were invited by men that won't ever be accepted by the "Milongueras" of the place.

Other possibility, if this happened to you around midnight is that those men were students coming from the previous class, which ends up about 11pm, if they are new in Tango world, probably they won't know the "C?digos", (rules of behavior at milongas).

You were right by saying "no thanks", but you could have also suggested them to invite you by the "cabeceo" from a relative distance, this, just in case you'd like to dance with them.

Never mindn Holly, it usually happens at several milongas, and in Buenos Aires not every one is as good as foreing people think.

Warmest regards,

Mar?a Olivera
www.tangosalon.com.ar

MACFroggy@aol.com escribi?:
Hi Holly,

What you experienced is very common: local men think that foreign women don't
know the codigos (and many don't), and so approach their tables to ask them
to dance. Often these men can't get local women to dance with them. Or they
just hope to profit from a newby's first time at a Buenos Aires milonga.

The proper response is, "no, gracias."
Punto final.

Please don't worry about it. You were absolutely correct by declining. No
explanation necessary.

https://tangocherie.blogspot.com/


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out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products.

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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:23:12 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Buenos Aires Mystery
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Holly,

It's highly unlikely that anyone would ask you to dance unless they'd already
seen you dancing. You say you'd already attended a few milongas in BsAs so it's
likely that the men had seen you there. Many men attend many different milongas.
Also, if you were alone at those previous milongas, they probably thought you
were alone at Canning. I'm sure it was simmply a misunderstanding, which is why
the men were mortified when you explained that you were there with a partner.
You should feel flattered that your dancing in previous milongas had been good
enough to warrant invitations in another milonga. Since you hadn't seen these
men dancing, you were correct to politely decline the invitations.

Keith, HK

On Tue Dec 4 16:23 , RoseHolly@aol.com sent:

>
>Hi everybody, this is my first post, though I've been reading the list for
>several months. I've really enjoyed the wealth of information and experience
>here...as well as all the drama surrounding it!
>I'm a relative newbie (dancing for about 1 ? years) and recently returned
>>from my first trip to Buenos Aires. I had a wonderful time, but one thing
>happened that mystified me, and I'm hoping you can shed some light.
>I had been to a few milongas in town already, danced my little heart out,
>and found everything to more or less fit my expectations. Then one night, I went
> to Salon Canning. I was with a friend I had met in Buenos Aires, not a local
>but a Mexican man who spends a month of every year there working on his
>technique, knows a lot of people and is a very good dancer.
>My friend had reserved a table, and we were seated at the outer edge, next
>to an adorable local couple who'd been married over 50 years and had gone
>there to hear a little music. It was around midnight, and the live music hadn't
>started yet. The floor was fairly full but not crowded yet. My friend went to
>change his shoes and pay his respects to various important people, and other
>than chatting with the nice older couple, I was careful not to make eye
>contact with anybody. It was my first time there, I didn't know the crowd or the
>floor, and I wanted my first tanda to be with my friend.
>This is where the mystery began. Within a few minutes of my friend leaving
>me at our table, a man tapped me on my shoulder, from behind. When I looked
>around he asked me to dance. I was quite taken aback and explained
>apologetically (in my bad Spanish) that I was saving my first dance for the gentleman I
>had arrived with, at which point this man fell all over himself apologizing
>for having asked. In the 10 minutes my friend was gone, this happened twice
>more, each time being tapped from behind and verbally invited to dance, and each
>time the man was extremely apologetic, even mortified, when I declined
>(always by explaining I was saving the first dance for my gentleman friend). What
>gives?
>I would be tempted to write them off as clueless Americans, but they didn't
>appear to be such, which is to say, they were all quite charming and
>reserved, well groomed, wearing nice suits, and native Spanish speakers. (No offense
>intended to my fellow clueless Americans, but I hope you know what I mean,
>and of course you are not all clueless.) One of them used the word ?sorry? in
>English but beyond that it was all Porteno-accented Spanish (as far as my
>untrained ear could distinguish).
>As I had just arrived, these men had no way of knowing whether I could dance
>my way out of a paper bag. Is it possible there were some other women there
>that these men were hoping to impress, so they were going to take any old
>newcomer (me) for a spin just so they could display their wares and move on to
>the women they wanted to win dances with?
>Up to this point (at the other milongas I'd already visited in town) I'd
>been quite charmed by the cabeceo, and felt a little thrill every time I got the
>nod. But this was something else entirely, and sort of put me on edge. What
>is the proper response (if there is one) when such a thing happens? I'd hate
>to step on anyone?s toes (so to speak) but I also don't want to perpetuate bad
> manners.
>Did they have bad manners? Did I have bad manners? Is it assumed that this
>is how one must ask foreigners (me) to dance, who might not know the customs?
>Even if that is the case, why would they want to dance with someone who'd
>just arrived (me), who might turn out to be a menace on the dance floor? I
>tried to discuss it with my kindly table neighbors, but either my Spanish was
>insufficient or they did not consider it worthy of comment, as they just rolled
>their eyes and waved their hands.
>I hope it will be found worthy of comment here, maybe with a little eye
>rolling and hand waving thrown in for excitement. Many thanks.
>Holly Rose, Berkeley
>
>
>
>products.
>(https://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007\?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 06:40:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: [Tango-L] Buenos Aires Mystery Tree
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Rose, this is one of the things that could happen, not only in Salon Canning. The eye contact for dancing is not a general guideline, men could tap you in the shoulder from behind, or rather come in front of you and invited to dance.

If you like mysteries, I hope you have noticed there is a tree growing out through a window, two houses nearby salon canning . This tree seems to be left on his own when the owner died ( a priest that have the church in front of this house , also closed)

that is a mystery, how the tree could manage to find the light and grow as big as it is now . It has been used for an advertising spot of soft drink

warm regards
alberto



----- Mensaje original ----
De: "RoseHolly@aol.com" <RoseHolly@aol.com>
Para: tango-l@mit.edu
Enviado: martes 4 de diciembre de 2007, 18:23:28
Asunto: [Tango-L] Buenos Aires Mystery


Hi everybody, this is my first post, though I've been reading the list for
several months. I've really enjoyed the wealth of information and experience
here...as well as all the drama surrounding it!
I'm a relative newbie (dancing for about 1 ? years) and recently returned

>from my first trip to Buenos Aires. I had a wonderful time, but one thing

happened that mystified me, and I'm hoping you can shed some light.
I had been to a few milongas in town already, danced my little heart out,
and found everything to more or less fit my expectations. Then one night, I went
to Salon Canning. I was with a friend I had met in Buenos Aires, not a local
but a Mexican man who spends a month of every year there working on his
technique, knows a lot of people and is a very good dancer.
My friend had reserved a table, and we were seated at the outer edge, next
to an adorable local couple who'd been married over 50 years and had gone
there to hear a little music. It was around midnight, and the live music hadn't
started yet. The floor was fairly full but not crowded yet. My friend went to
change his shoes and pay his respects to various important people, and other
than chatting with the nice older couple, I was careful not to make eye
contact with anybody. It was my first time there, I didn't know the crowd or the
floor, and I wanted my first tanda to be with my friend.
This is where the mystery began. Within a few minutes of my friend leaving
me at our table, a man tapped me on my shoulder, from behind. When I looked
around he asked me to dance. I was quite taken aback and explained
apologetically (in my bad Spanish) that I was saving my first dance for the gentleman I
had arrived with, at which point this man fell all over himself apologizing
for having asked. In the 10 minutes my friend was gone, this happened twice
more, each time being tapped from behind and verbally invited to dance, and each
time the man was extremely apologetic, even mortified, when I declined
(always by explaining I was saving the first dance for my gentleman friend). What
gives?
I would be tempted to write them off as clueless Americans, but they didn't
appear to be such, which is to say, they were all quite charming and
reserved, well groomed, wearing nice suits, and native Spanish speakers. (No offense
intended to my fellow clueless Americans, but I hope you know what I mean,
and of course you are not all clueless.) One of them used the word ?sorry? in
English but beyond that it was all Porteno-accented Spanish (as far as my
untrained ear could distinguish).
As I had just arrived, these men had no way of knowing whether I could dance
my way out of a paper bag. Is it possible there were some other women there
that these men were hoping to impress, so they were going to take any old
newcomer (me) for a spin just so they could display their wares and move on to
the women they wanted to win dances with?
Up to this point (at the other milongas I'd already visited in town) I'd
been quite charmed by the cabeceo, and felt a little thrill every time I got the
nod. But this was something else entirely, and sort of put me on edge. What
is the proper response (if there is one) when such a thing happens? I'd hate
to step on anyone?s toes (so to speak) but I also don't want to perpetuate bad
manners.
Did they have bad manners? Did I have bad manners? Is it assumed that this
is how one must ask foreigners (me) to dance, who might not know the customs?
Even if that is the case, why would they want to dance with someone who'd
just arrived (me), who might turn out to be a menace on the dance floor? I
tried to discuss it with my kindly table neighbors, but either my Spanish was
insufficient or they did not consider it worthy of comment, as they just rolled
their eyes and waved their hands.
I hope it will be found worthy of comment here, maybe with a little eye
rolling and hand waving thrown in for excitement. Many thanks.
Holly Rose, Berkeley



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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 01:59:13 -0300
From: "Janis Kenyon" <Jantango@feedback.net.ar>
Subject: [Tango-L] Buenos Aires Mystery
To: "Tango-L" <Tango-L@MIT.EDU>

RoseHolly@aol.com wrote:
...
<<Then one night, I went to Salon Canning. I was with a friend I had met in
Buenos Aires, not a local but a Mexican man who spends a month of every
year there working on his technique, knows a lot of people and is a very
good dancer. My friend had reserved a table, and we were seated at the outer
edge . . . >>

I will make a guess that you were in Salon Canning on a Tuesday night
when there are many foreigners. You were seated with your friend. In a
traditional milonga, that means you are going to dance only with him.

<<My friend went to change his shoes and pay his respects to various
important people, and other
than chatting with the nice older couple, I was careful not to make eye
contact with anybody. It was my first time there, I didn't know the crowd
or the
floor, and I wanted my first tanda to be with my friend.>>

He left you alone, unguarded. Foreign men change their shoes at a
milonga; portenos do not. It was a dead giveaway that you are a tourist.
That meant you were prey to anyone willing to approach you. Being seated
with a man means you are there to dance with him. Those who don't know or
follow milonga tradition will ask women who are seated with a man.

<<This is where the mystery began. Within a few minutes of my friend
leaving
me at our table, a man tapped me on my shoulder, from behind. When I looked
around he asked me to dance.>>

It's the latest tactic by poor dancers who don't know how to invite a
woman from a distance. I saw it last week and wrote about it on Tango-L.
Tourists come to dance, so they don't mind a tap on the shoulder. It is
better to ignor the men who do this.

<<I was quite taken aback and explained
apologetically (in my bad Spanish) that I was saving my first dance for the
gentleman I
had arrived with, at which point this man fell all over himself apologizing
for having asked.>>

It is possible that he understood that you were with your partner, so he
was apologizing for the intrusion.

<< In the 10 minutes my friend was gone, this happened twice
, each time being tapped from behind and verbally invited to dance, and
each
time the man was extremely apologetic, even mortified, when I declined
(always by explaining I was saving the first dance for my gentleman
friend). What
gives? >>

You were trying to explain why you didn't want to dance. All they
wanted was for you to walk out to the floor. They were wrong for tapping
your shoulder. That isn't how it is done. They are playing a game, hoping
to win most of the time. You surprised them. Most tourists will smile,
stand up, and walk out to the floor to dance with these guys.

<<I would be tempted to write them off as clueless Americans, but they
didn't
appear to be such, which is to say, they were all quite charming and
reserved, well groomed, wearing nice suits, and native Spanish speakers. (No
offense
intended to my fellow clueless Americans, but I hope you know what I mean,
and of course you are not all clueless.) One of them used the word ?sorry?
in
English but beyond that it was all Porteno-accented Spanish (as far as my
untrained ear could distinguish). >>

They were clueless Argentines who haven't learned proper conduct of the
milonga. They have made a point of learning the word sorry, so that they
can get out of the situation quickly. They are being rejected at the table
and don't want to make it obvious to others in the room.


<<As I had just arrived, these men had no way of knowing whether I could
dance
my way out of a paper bag. Is it possible there were some other women there
that these men were hoping to impress, so they were going to take any old
newcomer (me) for a spin just so they could display their wares and move on
to
the women they wanted to win dances with? >>

These men couldn't impress anyone with their dance skills, because
they don't have any. They were taking a chance that you wouldn't notice how
badly they danced. They didn't care whether or not you could dance. It's
just a numbers game for them. They weren't going to win tandas with any
good dancers in the place.

<<Up to this point (at the other milongas I'd already visited in town) I'd
been quite charmed by the cabeceo, and felt a little thrill every time I got
the nod. But this was something else entirely, and sort of put me on edge.
What is the proper response (if there is one) when such a thing happens?
I'd hate to step on anyone?s toes (so to speak) but I also don't want to
perpetuate bad manners. >>

You fit in at other milongas and learned that the cabeceo from the table
is the way it is done. Your response to these shoulder tappers is no
response at all--no turn of the head, no smile, not a word. They get the
message loud and clear without saying anything. You didn't step on anyone's
toes, nor did you give them a chance to step on yours. We Americans are
raised to be good little girls with good manners so we don't hurt anyone's
feelings. The situation happened in Buenos Aires. Ignor the walkers, and
they'll go away.

<<Did they have bad manners? Did I have bad manners? Is it assumed that
this
is how one must ask foreigners (me) to dance, who might not know the
customs? >>

When in Buenos Aires milongas, do as the portenos do. Foreigners
shouldn't be treated any differently. They should make it their business to
learn the customs before they arrive.

<<Even if that is the case, why would they want to dance with someone who'd
just arrived (me), who might turn out to be a menace on the dance floor? I
tried to discuss it with my kindly table neighbors, but either my Spanish
was
insufficient or they did not consider it worthy of comment, as they just
rolled
their eyes and waved their hands. >>

Foreigners are prime targets by those who don't know how to dance. You
stand out in a crowd. They don't give a thought to whether or not you can
dance. They are only interested the next ten minutes with you because
portenas refuse them. They rolled their eyes because they're heard and seen
it all before many times. You weren't the first tourist who had the
experience, and you certainly aren't the last.

I have been teaching first-time visiters the codes and customs of the
milongas for several years. I had to learn them by observing. I have a
friend who has been dancing in BsAs for many years. He still doesn't walk
his partner back to her table after a tanda and dances in the center of the
floor.