4608 The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:53:18 -0600
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
Hello everybody:
I had to meditate a little on the email that was sent out by Brian. There
were a few things in this that raised my eyebrow a little.
I have never really been involved much with the ?Popular culture? and as
some people who know me on the list, this ?political correctness? is not
really a part of my personal lexicon. I am also not forestalling flames
here.
It is not often I comment about something. With this email I do take
exception with the assessment of the past 40 years with the exception of
human AIDS/HIV. The expressions in the world of free-love hippies, Feminism,
Gay culture, (etc) is and always has been around for thousands of years (if
not all of the human experience in one way or another). In many societies
each of these expressions has been recognized as a part of their culture and
way of life. In some, they are embraced and an integral part of the
community. In others, shunned and ostracized.
For the free-love hippy I could look back to the wandering Troubadour (of
the 10th and 12th centuries), a gipsy, Goldmund in the book Narcissus and
Goldmund, in more recent times the Ner-do-well, or a guy from the lost
generation. An artist, musician, writer that was part of the
Dadaist/Surrealist movement. The Bohemians, Beat?s, and back to the Hippies.
This list is huge, and each on the list has its own twist on the theme. For
modern times, think the dead heads really brought this image to a beautiful
expression and currently have to add the burners who participate in burning
man that happens once a year.
Even in our own tango. The images of the good guy and hard worker in the
neighborhood who came from some where else. The guy who only dances Tango
and has to seduce a living from women or by some other means. Or the guy who
keeps the graves clean and lives off the tips from the families of the
deceased (if he makes enough he can go dance). It can get kind of confusing
if your looking for a specific example. Look at all the debate that has
taken place in the time this list has been in existence. I wonder what the
images and myths will end up being when all is said and done.
Concerning the Feminists. Look at the Oracle of Delphi, the priestesses in
the temple of Isis, to mention only two in the ancient world. In the middle
ages who do you think was arranging many of the deals of commerce. In more
modern times, you could look to Indira Gandhi, Madeline Albright, Margret
Thatcher, or even Eva Perone. If you do not think women have not had power
or influence over the political, social or economic aspect of people?s
lives, and that this is a new thing I would have to disagree with you. What
is new in my opinion, and is important. Is how women are, can, and going to
expressed this power, in a balanced way, within the current time we are
living in (which has always been the question for each of us). I for one am
happy to see the progress that has taken place (esp. given the history of
women in the past several centuries). I do not see it stopping any time soon
and know much work still needs to be done. More than likely in a couple of
centuries from now, the same questions will exist. But will be asked in a
different way and have a different spin on an old theme.
The gay culture, with in Tango for example, as long as there has been social
tango dance, there have been places where gay men and women danced with one
another. Has much of the society I live in more or less pushed the gay
culture away, yes it has, but this has gone the other way as well. It is
only a few years ago that what has always been present all along is now
coming to the surface of this so called popular culture. Again I am very
happy to see the progress and acceptance that has been made. I also know
there is much to be accomplished.
With the Nostalgia. Well, will that ever go away, I doubt it. I don?t
believe this fully has to do with ?Ooo, the clearer lines of men being men
and women being women?. That is a nice surface suggestion and does not
really go to the meat and bones of what is happing at least with in Tango.
With Nostalgia there are two way to look at this. One way is in the
romantic: The fantasy of the way things were, that it was an easier and
simpler time, the magic of the dance back then. This is really great stuff
for reflection, fantasy and mind candy. It often, does not seem to go much
deeper.
The other way: Is what was working and what was not, at that time in the
past useful. The core aspects of what a person was doing and how they lived.
This is the stuff that carries weight, because this is the legacy that was
handed to us that works. This is the experience from the Tango dancers of
the past that has the thread of what works in this dance of Tango. This
thread is what we bring into our own lives, into our own dance and what we
share with our partners. It is the same thread that will be passed on.
When Archetypes were mentioned in the email (which the Shamans and others of
like kind have always used). It is mentioned about an archetype being
something you are. This is way off track. If someone approaches an archetype
in this way, then they remain in fantasy land, enjoying the sweetness of
mind candy, and never really getting to the heart of the matter.
Archetypes have always been and always will be a bridge, doorway or
experience that leads to somewhere. This somewhere is in relation to each
person. Can it be part of the expression of how someone is working in the
world, of course. But not of who someone is, this would be too easy of a
label to use.
I really have issue with this idea of ?Gender Polarization?, or even
?Healthy Polarization?. By approaching things in this way, both male and
female have been emasculated into some kind of ?uni-gender? which is
frightening. Approaching the idea in this way (at least with in Tango) not
only has the core elements and energy of the Lead and the Follow been
stripped away, but as well, what keeps this a living dance, will become a
guessing game and not something one can step into, discover and learn what
this dance is, with clarity and intention.
This is even true for a na?ve public.
So thank you Brian for brining the topics up.
Thank you everyone for your time as well.
Now that my eyebrow is back where it belongs. Off to practice and dance.
Take care
David Hodgson
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 4:50 PM
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
Dear list,
Kace wrote a great message in another thread about what several things that
attracted him to tango, and I wanted to respond in part:
>>>
...I'm going to state my own definitions
of what attracted me to Tango in the first place were:
(Numbers 1 through 4 omitted from current commentary)
5. Nostalgia -- tango is a mirror to an earlier, more romantic era. In
the "good old days" gender roles were clearly defined...Tango lets us break
out of our political correctness and return temporarily to a more macho and
sensual age when men and women know how to treat each other with respect.
<<<
Concerns like these are, for my partner Deb and me, at the center of our own
call to tango. In my view, Kace, you are correct in seeing a misplaced
?political correctness? as one of the inhibiting restrictions on our free
expression of our innate masculine and feminine natures (and just to
forestall flames, can we all agree that each of us has some elements of both
masculine and feminine archetypes in our core identities, expressed in
different ways to different degrees, regardless of whether we are
physiologically male or female? If not, those who disagree may want to hit
delete now...). Certainly, hearkening back to an era that was more
gender-polarized along these lines than our current culture is one way to
permit the re-emergence of a healthy distinction in the expression of these
paired archetypes.
>From my perspective, however, I view tango?s focus on what I would call
?gender polarization? to be, not a nostalgic call to the past (which we may
agree had its own problems between the genders), but rather a harbinger of a
new and more richly textured relationship between men and women. The last
forty years in the United States and other Western-European-culture
countries has of course seen lots of gender upheaval (free-love hippies,
feminism, gay culture, AIDS, etc.). In many ways these impacts are not yet
fully assimilated by the popular culture in these countries.
While I understand the easy framing of the male-female spark in tango as
nostalgia in the face of these upheavals, I feel in our own call to tango
(and many others concur in this) a forward-looking cultural developmental
drive to a new progressive synthesis of ?healthy polarization? between the
genders, on the one hand, with (among other things) the social and political
empowerment of women, on the other. This social and political empowerment
is a new and permanent part of the cultural landscape in the aforementioned
countries, and is largely the fruit of the upheavals mentioned before.
With such a new synthesis, in our teaching, in our performing and organizing
for the na?ve public that is drawn to the new dance TV shows, and in our
social tango encounters within our growing tango communities, we all can
gracefully and powerfully exemplify the masculine and feminine archetypes in
their strongly polarized tango expressions. Yet the new synthesis would
provide this tango sweetness within a context that can actively cherish the
forward social progress of the last forty years, and in turn be nourished by
it. Within this new polarization, tango can be a fantastic forum for
romance and flirtation to respectfully and energetically combine in a
celebratory festival of rejoicing in simply being leaders and followers,
pairing off temporarily in public, but nevertheless giving our best to each
other in every magical tango moment. In this emerging culture, the
decisive, reliable macho masculine and the sensually alluring surrendering
feminine are both encouraged to find their full expression in tango, in all
of us, for the increased happiness of all.
We're actively seeking to network with others who respond to the call to
tango in ways that resonate with this vision. Please make contact off-list
in order to keep in touch.
Kace made some other great comments in this thread, and I hope to respond to
them soon.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
303-938-0716
www.danceoftheheart.com
?Building a better world, one tango at a time?
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 00:19:10 -0600
From: "Brian Dunn" <brian@danceoftheheart.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
To: "'David Hodgson'" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>, "'Tango L list'"
Hi, Dave, and thanks for replying!
You wrote:
>>>
I do take exception with the assessment of the past 40 years...The
expressions in the world of free-love hippies, Feminism, Gay culture, (etc)
is and always has been around for thousands of years (if not all of the
human experience in one way or another).
<<<
I heartily agree that the gender-impacting cultural movements I mentioned
had antecendents in other cultures at other times. I thoroughly enjoyed
your references to past cultures, their myths, and previous waves of change
in other times and other places. I mentioned the countries and the era in
question, not in order to cite them as historically unique in this regard,
but because these waves were elements in my own development in the USA and
in Western Europe. I believe Kace hails from South Asia and, for all I
know, may have significantly different cultural reference points for the
last 40 years.
You further wrote:
>>>
The other way: Is what was working and what was not, at that time in the
past useful. The core aspects of what a person was doing and how they lived.
This is the stuff that carries weight, because this is the legacy that was
handed to us that works. This is the experience from the Tango dancers of
the past that has the thread of what works in this dance of Tango.
<<<
I assume you mean "Is what was working...useful TODAY to ME". One hopes
this question is answered with keen self-awareness, personal integrity, and
some artistic discrimination! I imagine the gory details of gender
stereotypes in "original tango" - of, for example, violent tough-guy pimps
cruelly exploiting seductively submissive social-climbing prostitutes - is
"useful" for some of us - that's not the "what works" that floats my boat in
tango. As Luciana Valle once told me, "Tango is a social dance, built on
social relationships, and it will change, it must change as those social
arrangements change around it in a changing society." Take what you need,
and leave the rest in the dustbin of history ASAP!
You further wrote:
>>>
When Archetypes were mentioned in the email. It is mentioned about an
archetype being something you are. This is way off track. If someone
approaches an archetype in this way, then they remain in fantasy land,
enjoying the sweetness of mind candy, and never really getting to the heart
of the matter...
<<<
I freely admit to having merely an educated layman's awareness of
"archetypes", with no formal Jungian training. But a trained Jungian
privately wrote to me saying that she agreed with my usage of the term,
so...there you go ;> .
You further wrote:
>>>
I really have issue with this idea of ?Gender Polarization?, or even
?Healthy Polarization?. By approaching things in this way, both male and
female have been emasculated into some kind of ?uni-gender? which is
frightening."
<<<
*** ALERT -- ALERT -- FUNDAMENTAL MISUNDERSTANDING ***. :0
I thought I was pretty clear about this. I repeatedly spoke of
"polarization" (i.e., "opposite poles"; e.g. positive/negative electrical
charges, north/south magnetic poles, masculine/feminine genders). You seem
to think I mean "depolarization". I am seeking a way for "the decisive,
reliable macho masculine and the sensually alluring surrendering feminine
[to be] both encouraged to find their full expression in tango". There's no
tango spark without positive/negative, no attraction between depolarized
magnets.
>>>
Approaching the idea in this way (at least with in Tango) not
only has the core elements and energy of the Lead and the Follow been
stripped away, but as well, what keeps this a living dance, will become a
guessing game and not something one can step into, discover and learn what
this dance is, with clarity and intention. This is even true for a na?ve
public.
<<<
Dave, being from Colorado, you *know* some of the women I enjoy dancing
with, and you enjoy dancing with them yourself. Ask them if, when I dance
with them, the tango feels depolarized or "emasculated", lacking "clarity
and intention" ;) ;). Beyond the misunderstanding, I believe we agree on
the underlying concept.
Maybe you're troubled by my assertion that both men and women have both
masculine and feminine energies in them. Here's a more detailed assertion,
from David Deida: "80% of males are mostly masculine in their core, 80% of
females are mostly feminine in their core, 10% of males and females are
equally balanced between masculine & feminine, and the remaining 10% are at
their core gender-reversed - yet everyone is somewhere on this continuum,
and almost everyone has at least some trace, however minuscule, of both
masculine and feminine at their core, expressed to different degrees at
different times". Works for me, you're free to disagree, it accounts for
the behavior I see around me.
So...why do people come to tango? Over the last nine years, Deb and I have
taught tango together to thousands of beginners. What seems to attract most
MEN to tango in our gringo-based experience (thanks for the distinction,
Lucia) is the opportunities they perceive in learning this "sexy dance" to
safely and authentically express more of their decisive dependable
"masculine self" more of the time, with "clarity and intention", in the
company of a large number of WOMEN who similarly are seeking to safely and
authentically express more of their radiant adorable "feminine self" more of
the time.
When we teach a new man apilado-style, so often as Deb flows into his arms
in a heart-to-heart apilado embrace, I see this look on his face of "am I
going to get slapped/sued for harassment/beat up for doing this?" Such a
guy has often told himself deep down that if he expresses himself in an
authentically masculine way in public with a relative stranger, he will be
humiliated, disciplined and/or rejected. Analogous issues seem to arise for
new women around the idea of feminine surrender in the dance.
I know I had to work through similar issues of my own when I was called to
tango, called to repolarize my encounters with women by just these same
"magnetic forces".
Our greatest pleasure in teaching tango arises from perceiving and relieving
these knots in people's self-expression, so we can all join on the floor in
public celebration of just being men and women making lovely art together,
giving our gifts completely to each other for a few intense moments until we
say goodbye.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:10:22 -0600
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
This dance of Tango is amazing, hence why I love and a few times have a deep
dislike for it. I do keep dancing.
Brian: ?I mentioned the countries and the era in question, not in order to
cite them as historically unique in this regard, but because these waves
were elements in my own development in the USA and in Western Europe.?
Yes I have to agree with you and that we both grew up in a similar time and
over all culture. I don?t know your life background at all, but doubt our
experiences were even remotely similar. What I do see you expounding upon is
the bigger picture. In this vein, because I grew up in the United States,
specifically Seattle, WA. Does not mean I do not have an understanding, of a
few of the principals with in Bushido, which specifically was developed not
in my culture or the time I am living in, but still carries deep meaning.
This would be true of even some of the codes with in Tango that may or may
not work in BSAS. But I do have a good idea of what works on the dance floor
down there.
Brian: ?I assume you mean "Is what was working...useful TODAY to ME".?
Brian: ?As Luciana Valle once told me, "Tango is a social dance, built on
social relationships, and it will change, it must change as those social
arrangements change around it in a changing society." ?
The comment from Luciana is a good one and very applicable here. However
this is not just what was working, or useful for you today. This is the
stuff that works today, yesterday, and tomorrow, in any place and
circumstance you find you?re self. This is also not just about you, it is
about everybody as well.
Brian: ?I freely admit to having merely an educated layman's awareness of
"archetypes", with no formal Jungian training. But a trained Jungian
privately wrote to me saying that she agreed with my usage of the term,
so...there you go.?
I am not formally trained or even deeply educated in Jungian analysis
either. What I understand about Carl Jung is that he took some concepts that
have been around for a very long time. Added some new names and ways of
looking at them, in a really beautiful and effective way. Then made it
palatable and sale able to the intellectual community. Helping with the
evolution of what we know as modern psychology (for as humans evolve, the
concepts, ideals and explanations change as well). If his work has been
fully embraced by this community or not, I could not say. But do know these
concepts have continued to work very well over the past century. Will the
definition you gave work fully outside of the intellectual or psychological
community,,, one wonders. Hence we are back to Luciana?s quote, and one view
that is true about Tango.
Brian: ?I am seeking a way for "the decisive, reliable macho masculine and
the sensually alluring surrendering feminine [to be] both encouraged to find
their full expression in tango".
How commanding of you.
I was not referring or thinking about ?Depolerazation? at all.
For my personal pallet the terms ?decisive, reliable macho masculine? and
?sensually alluring surrendering feminine? has enough frosting to cause
someone to become diabetic, and is rather assumptive. On this level it
leaves the Lead and Follow only on a male/female level. As well, what is
happening in the dance, stays only below the belt, regardless of gender or
preference. So if this approach is true across the board, how are you going
to teach, what you?re asking someone else to learn, who is straight, gay, or
of a different expression? Regardless of the percentages you cited (Overall
the percentages seem pretty good and would run with them). Is this level
important to develop, understand and know? You bet cha bucko!!!
Yes, we have danced with many of the same Follows. Some like the way I Lead,
and some don?t, just like you. The only difference I am assuming here is
that many Follows I dance with (including the floors of BSAS) often
spontaneously start singing when they have been lead in my embrace. Am I one
to say ?no? to this or the smile at the end of the Tanda.
There is a whole other world that needs to come into play here and now we
get into the ?Masculine? and ?Feminine?. I could point out a few things in a
more direct way, but will not at this time. Since you have been asking some
exceptional questions (I mean this), and I understand only a small bit of
the ?The Great Mystery?. I need to give an answer with a question.
(Boys and Girls; this is directed to Brian, so don?t get any ideas or try
this at home).
When you have a partner in your embrace. Who are you dancing with and where
are you dancing?
On an esoteric level; I believe The Lady is calling for you to ask her to
dance, which will be a private conversation.
You can still make a different choice you know.
However; I do think you will understand and respond to a little more of a
pragmatic suggestion to start off with. Take an intensive weekend massage
course without Deb attending or being present. In the area you live, this
should be very easy to find.
So, my thoughts for the moment.
Good stuff Brian.
Thank you also to the Follows for accepting my Lead.
Take care and Dance well.
David~
PS: For everyone else.
In the immortal words of Hugh Hefner:
?When Dancing with her and she insists on Leading.
Understand just this.
It all depends on where she wants to lead you.?
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Dunn [mailto:brian@danceoftheheart.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:19 AM
To: 'David Hodgson'; 'Tango L list'
Subject: RE: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
Hi, Dave, and thanks for replying!
You wrote:
>>>
I do take exception with the assessment of the past 40 years...The
expressions in the world of free-love hippies, Feminism, Gay culture, (etc)
is and always has been around for thousands of years (if not all of the
human experience in one way or another).
<<<
I heartily agree that the gender-impacting cultural movements I mentioned
had antecendents in other cultures at other times. I thoroughly enjoyed
your references to past cultures, their myths, and previous waves of change
in other times and other places. I mentioned the countries and the era in
question, not in order to cite them as historically unique in this regard,
but because these waves were elements in my own development in the USA and
in Western Europe. I believe Kace hails from South Asia and, for all I
know, may have significantly different cultural reference points for the
last 40 years.
You further wrote:
>>>
The other way: Is what was working and what was not, at that time in the
past useful. The core aspects of what a person was doing and how they lived.
This is the stuff that carries weight, because this is the legacy that was
handed to us that works. This is the experience from the Tango dancers of
the past that has the thread of what works in this dance of Tango.
<<<
I assume you mean "Is what was working...useful TODAY to ME". One hopes
this question is answered with keen self-awareness, personal integrity, and
some artistic discrimination! I imagine the gory details of gender
stereotypes in "original tango" - of, for example, violent tough-guy pimps
cruelly exploiting seductively submissive social-climbing prostitutes - is
"useful" for some of us - that's not the "what works" that floats my boat in
tango. As Luciana Valle once told me, "Tango is a social dance, built on
social relationships, and it will change, it must change as those social
arrangements change around it in a changing society." Take what you need,
and leave the rest in the dustbin of history ASAP!
You further wrote:
>>>
When Archetypes were mentioned in the email. It is mentioned about an
archetype being something you are. This is way off track. If someone
approaches an archetype in this way, then they remain in fantasy land,
enjoying the sweetness of mind candy, and never really getting to the heart
of the matter...
<<<
I freely admit to having merely an educated layman's awareness of
"archetypes", with no formal Jungian training. But a trained Jungian
privately wrote to me saying that she agreed with my usage of the term,
so...there you go ;> .
You further wrote:
>>>
I really have issue with this idea of ?Gender Polarization?, or even
?Healthy Polarization?. By approaching things in this way, both male and
female have been emasculated into some kind of ?uni-gender? which is
frightening."
<<<
*** ALERT -- ALERT -- FUNDAMENTAL MISUNDERSTANDING ***. :0
I thought I was pretty clear about this. I repeatedly spoke of
"polarization" (i.e., "opposite poles"; e.g. positive/negative electrical
charges, north/south magnetic poles, masculine/feminine genders). You seem
to think I mean "depolarization". I am seeking a way for "the decisive,
reliable macho masculine and the sensually alluring surrendering feminine
[to be] both encouraged to find their full expression in tango". There's no
tango spark without positive/negative, no attraction between depolarized
magnets.
>>>
Approaching the idea in this way (at least with in Tango) not
only has the core elements and energy of the Lead and the Follow been
stripped away, but as well, what keeps this a living dance, will become a
guessing game and not something one can step into, discover and learn what
this dance is, with clarity and intention. This is even true for a na?ve
public.
<<<
Dave, being from Colorado, you *know* some of the women I enjoy dancing
with, and you enjoy dancing with them yourself. Ask them if, when I dance
with them, the tango feels depolarized or "emasculated", lacking "clarity
and intention" ;) ;). Beyond the misunderstanding, I believe we agree on
the underlying concept.
Maybe you're troubled by my assertion that both men and women have both
masculine and feminine energies in them. Here's a more detailed assertion,
from David Deida: "80% of males are mostly masculine in their core, 80% of
females are mostly feminine in their core, 10% of males and females are
equally balanced between masculine & feminine, and the remaining 10% are at
their core gender-reversed - yet everyone is somewhere on this continuum,
and almost everyone has at least some trace, however minuscule, of both
masculine and feminine at their core, expressed to different degrees at
different times". Works for me, you're free to disagree, it accounts for
the behavior I see around me.
So...why do people come to tango? Over the last nine years, Deb and I have
taught tango together to thousands of beginners. What seems to attract most
MEN to tango in our gringo-based experience (thanks for the distinction,
Lucia) is the opportunities they perceive in learning this "sexy dance" to
safely and authentically express more of their decisive dependable
"masculine self" more of the time, with "clarity and intention", in the
company of a large number of WOMEN who similarly are seeking to safely and
authentically express more of their radiant adorable "feminine self" more of
the time.
When we teach a new man apilado-style, so often as Deb flows into his arms
in a heart-to-heart apilado embrace, I see this look on his face of "am I
going to get slapped/sued for harassment/beat up for doing this?" Such a
guy has often told himself deep down that if he expresses himself in an
authentically masculine way in public with a relative stranger, he will be
humiliated, disciplined and/or rejected. Analogous issues seem to arise for
new women around the idea of feminine surrender in the dance.
I know I had to work through similar issues of my own when I was called to
tango, called to repolarize my encounters with women by just these same
"magnetic forces".
Our greatest pleasure in teaching tango arises from perceiving and relieving
these knots in people's self-expression, so we can all join on the floor in
public celebration of just being men and women making lovely art together,
giving our gifts completely to each other for a few intense moments until we
say goodbye.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:53:01 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
To: TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
David,
You wrote:
What I understand about Carl Jung is that he took some concepts that
>have been around for a very long time. Added some new names and ways of
>looking at them, in a really beautiful and effective way. Then made it
>palatable and sale able to the intellectual community. Helping with the
>evolution of what we know as modern psychology (for as humans evolve, the
>concepts, ideals and explanations change as well).
Just a tiny correction... Carl Jung, mostly through dream analysis,
but also through some other work, has presented us with a concept of
the collective unconscious. The implications of his work have been
so profound, that one of the most effective, not ot mention
interesting and extremely useful, instruments of assessment (MBPI)
has been based on his typology of personality. This is not to
mention the much more recent, monumental work of Joseph Campbell, as
well as "The Star Wars", which is "the hero's journey" at its core in
Jungian terms. (Where would we be without "The Star Wars"?!)
The codes and traditions of tango are very, very simple. They serve
a practical purpose - they protect people's dignity and emotions, and
provide guidelines of conduct in a social situations that could
potentially be uncomfortable.
Old or not, the codes of conduct have to serve a practical purpose,
or they need to be changed. One example of a situation where the new
codes must emerge is for the milongas where both single dancers and
couples mix. I believe that such milongas exists only outside of
Argentina. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have never
encountered such milongas in Buenos Aires, with an exception of the
artificial milongas created for festivals.
In this case, there seem to be no old codes of behavior that can be
applied. Again, please correct me if I am wrong. And yet clear
codes of conduct are much needed. Common sense can provide some
guidance, but people often do not share much of the common sense, and
there really is nothing like that anyway because there is nothing
common about it, but you know what I mean!
Warmest regards to every one,
Nina
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:27:48 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
To: tango-l@mit.edu
"The codes and traditions of tango are very, very simple. They serve
a practical purpose - they protect people's dignity and emotions, and
provide guidelines of conduct in a social situations that could
potentially be uncomfortable."
Just when I promised myself never to post to Tango-L again....after reading
this particular sentence, I nearly choked on my coffee.
Codes and Traditions of Tango may have INTENDED to protect dignity and
emotions but they are not always adhered to as much as we would like. No
need to explain this here because I'm quite sure everyone has had bad
moments at Milongas. If those said codes and traditions are not adhered to
in a consistent fashion then they are not really traditional, are they?
After all the reading I've done on the subject of Tango - particularly from
personal perspectives - it seems that tango evokes as much anguish and
dejection as it does passion and joy.
As for code of conduct - hmmm....the only code of conduct that I see being
respected is that an embrace is just an embrace, not a suggestion that the
man/woman wants anything more from you than a mutual enjoyment of a tanda.
Asides from that, there are always moments of discomforts in a social
setting such as a milonga.
Dont waste time standing in linetry shopping online. Visit Sympatico / MSN
Shopping today! https://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 19:49:40 -0600
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
To: "'Nina Pesochinsky'" <nina@earthnet.net>, "Tango L list"
Nina:
"Yes. you can have such a partner. But only when you yourself are
able to bring to the experience something equivalent to what you have
requested in such a partner. So what would that be?"
Nina, Thank you very, very much. I will have some thoughts to your first
email tomorrow.
My response I say to her:
We have danced before, was it real or dream, it is of no matter. I know it
was sacred and profane. I remember leading you to take a step. My arm
embracing your form, my hand supporting your balance, my heart listening to
your question and response, your heart beating clearly with the music.
O, insolence I see. I will have you wait, no a little longer,, no a little
longer,, perhaps pause.. a little longer.. Now step here.
Though I have just nodded in clear request, I know there is thin fabric
between you and me. Body and thought that have not acquiesced. All is
offered, open and surrender.
Great depths I have traveled, and I still dance. There is the mystery of who
you are, but will I know how deep this is.
You step through doors I open for you, to find stillness, a voice for even
one moment.
Can you be sure of where I may lead you? As much as I can be sure of your
depths.
But one thing we both know, shared through our heart, gaze, step, heat and
Tango.
I am your Lead, you are my Follow.
Is there a question.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:35 AM
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
Hi, David,
Yes. you can have such a partner. But only when you yourself are
able to bring to the experience something equivalent to what you have
requested in such a partner. So what would that be?
Thank you.
Nina
At 07:58 PM 9/28/2006, you wrote:
>Nina, I liked your email earlier a lot and have a few thoughts and about
>tango in a bit but first.
>
>I like the menu. So Nina, for my platter could I have Morticia Adams (TV
>show), Maggie Gyllenhaal, Laura San Giacomo in one partner with lots of
>resolved life experience, a good dollop of humorous sarcasm, a strong
>underlying Tango expression, clarity of personal expression, and has a
>penchant for speaking Spanish in a smooth sensual way.
>For music Biagi, pugliasi and desarli, with a large sprig of Piazzola and
>small sprigs of Delirium, and Peter Murphy.
>A cabernet from Mendoza that has warmth, a little tannin, lingers nicely,
>with a nice finish of allure.
>Will not ask for a wonderful dance experience, will discover that as we
move
>through the evening.
>Thank you.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
>nina@earthnet.net
>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:03 PM
>To: tango-l@mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
>
>People are free to follow or not to follow the codes, and their choice
>is reflected int he consequences. There is a lot of whining going on
>in all tango communities about the social discomfort, not dancing
>enough, etc. But the bottom line is that tango experience is what you
>make of it. No one is going to bring to anyone on the platter a
>fabulous dance experience, a great milonga, good connection, beautiful
>music, respect, a great dance partner and all those other things that
>that everyone wishes and hopes for. If those great things happen,
>then marvelous and a bit thank you and appreciation are in order. But
>eople just need to decide what they want and go and create it. And
>the tango codes help them to have the same language with others who
>are also there to create their own experience.
>
>Nina
>
>
>Quoting Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>:
>
>
> > Just when I promised myself never to post to Tango-L again....after
> > reading this particular sentence, I nearly choked on my coffee.
> >
> > Codes and Traditions of Tango may have INTENDED to protect dignity and
> > emotions but they are not always adhered to as much as we would like.
> > No need to explain this here because I'm quite sure everyone has had
> > bad moments at Milongas. If those said codes and traditions are not
> > adhered to in a consistent fashion then they are not really
> > traditional, are they? After all the reading I've done on the subject
> > of Tango - particularly from personal perspectives - it seems that
> > tango evokes as much anguish and dejection as it does passion and joy.
> >
> > As for code of conduct - hmmm....the only code of conduct that I see
> > being respected is that an embrace is just an embrace, not a suggestion
> > that the man/woman wants anything more from you than a mutual enjoyment
> > of a tanda. Asides from that, there are always moments of discomforts
> > in a social setting such as a milonga.
> >
> > Don't waste time standing in line-try shopping online. Visit
> > Sympatico / MSN Shopping today! https://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 14:27:44 +1000
From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
<9fb1555a0609292127i38cd0e42jfe2a7258e755552e@mail.gmail.com>
Zzzzzzzzzzzz.......
On 9/30/06, David Hodgson <DHodgson@tangolabyrinth.com> wrote:
>
> Nina:
> "Yes. you can have such a partner. But only when you yourself are
> able to bring to the experience something equivalent to what you have
> requested in such a partner. So what would that be?"
>
>
>
> Nina, Thank you very, very much. I will have some thoughts to your first
> email tomorrow.
>
> My response I say to her:
>
> We have danced before, was it real or dream, it is of no matter. I know it
> was sacred and profane. I remember leading you to take a step. My arm
> embracing your form, my hand supporting your balance, my heart listening
> to
> your question and response, your heart beating clearly with the music.
> O, insolence I see. I will have you wait, no a little longer,, no a little
> longer,, perhaps pause.. a little longer.. Now step here.
> Though I have just nodded in clear request, I know there is thin fabric
> between you and me. Body and thought that have not acquiesced. All is
> offered, open and surrender.
> Great depths I have traveled, and I still dance. There is the mystery of
> who
> you are, but will I know how deep this is.
> You step through doors I open for you, to find stillness, a voice for even
> one moment.
> Can you be sure of where I may lead you? As much as I can be sure of your
> depths.
> But one thing we both know, shared through our heart, gaze, step, heat and
> Tango.
> I am your Lead, you are my Follow.
> Is there a question.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf
> Of
> Nina Pesochinsky
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:35 AM
> To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
>
> Hi, David,
>
> Yes. you can have such a partner. But only when you yourself are
> able to bring to the experience something equivalent to what you have
> requested in such a partner. So what would that be?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Nina
>
> At 07:58 PM 9/28/2006, you wrote:
> >Nina, I liked your email earlier a lot and have a few thoughts and about
> >tango in a bit but first.
> >
> >I like the menu. So Nina, for my platter could I have Morticia Adams (TV
> >show), Maggie Gyllenhaal, Laura San Giacomo in one partner with lots of
> >resolved life experience, a good dollop of humorous sarcasm, a strong
> >underlying Tango expression, clarity of personal expression, and has a
> >penchant for speaking Spanish in a smooth sensual way.
> >For music Biagi, pugliasi and desarli, with a large sprig of Piazzola and
> >small sprigs of Delirium, and Peter Murphy.
> >A cabernet from Mendoza that has warmth, a little tannin, lingers nicely,
> >with a nice finish of allure.
> >Will not ask for a wonderful dance experience, will discover that as we
> move
> >through the evening.
> >Thank you.
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf
> Of
> >nina@earthnet.net
> >Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:03 PM
> >To: tango-l@mit.edu
> >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
> >
> >People are free to follow or not to follow the codes, and their choice
> >is reflected int he consequences. There is a lot of whining going on
> >in all tango communities about the social discomfort, not dancing
> >enough, etc. But the bottom line is that tango experience is what you
> >make of it. No one is going to bring to anyone on the platter a
> >fabulous dance experience, a great milonga, good connection, beautiful
> >music, respect, a great dance partner and all those other things that
> >that everyone wishes and hopes for. If those great things happen,
> >then marvelous and a bit thank you and appreciation are in order. But
> >eople just need to decide what they want and go and create it. And
> >the tango codes help them to have the same language with others who
> >are also there to create their own experience.
> >
> >Nina
> >
> >
> >Quoting Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>:
> >
> >
> > > Just when I promised myself never to post to Tango-L again....after
> > > reading this particular sentence, I nearly choked on my coffee.
> > >
> > > Codes and Traditions of Tango may have INTENDED to protect dignity and
> > > emotions but they are not always adhered to as much as we would like.
> > > No need to explain this here because I'm quite sure everyone has had
> > > bad moments at Milongas. If those said codes and traditions are not
> > > adhered to in a consistent fashion then they are not really
> > > traditional, are they? After all the reading I've done on the subject
> > > of Tango - particularly from personal perspectives - it seems that
> > > tango evokes as much anguish and dejection as it does passion and joy.
> > >
> > > As for code of conduct - hmmm....the only code of conduct that I see
> > > being respected is that an embrace is just an embrace, not a
> suggestion
> > > that the man/woman wants anything more from you than a mutual
> enjoyment
> > > of a tanda. Asides from that, there are always moments of discomforts
> > > in a social setting such as a milonga.
> > >
> > > Don't waste time standing in line-try shopping online. Visit
> > > Sympatico / MSN Shopping today! https://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 02:53:03 -0600
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
To: "'Nina Pesochinsky'" <nina@earthnet.net>, "Tango L list"
Part 2.....
Hey Nina;
Doah (slapping on forehead), I did not mention some very important things I
bring with me.
1. Having a walk in the park with Mat'e. Since all the knowledge of the
universe is in the Mat'e gourd not only is this shared. But you get to make
up all sorts of cool, kooky, knowledge to share.
2. I may not be dancing with exactly the woman I am writing about at
the moment. Even if it appears she has shown up during an evening,
appreciate the gift for what it is.
3. I can hold my own in a kitchen, and was given a Flan recipe. I will
make and want to share, nuff said.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:35 AM
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
Hi, David,
Yes. you can have such a partner. But only when you yourself are
able to bring to the experience something equivalent to what you have
requested in such a partner. So what would that be?
Thank you.
Nina
At 07:58 PM 9/28/2006, you wrote:
>Nina, I liked your email earlier a lot and have a few thoughts and about
>tango in a bit but first.
>
>I like the menu. So Nina, for my platter could I have Morticia Adams (TV
>show), Maggie Gyllenhaal, Laura San Giacomo in one partner with lots of
>resolved life experience, a good dollop of humorous sarcasm, a strong
>underlying Tango expression, clarity of personal expression, and has a
>penchant for speaking Spanish in a smooth sensual way.
>For music Biagi, pugliasi and desarli, with a large sprig of Piazzola and
>small sprigs of Delirium, and Peter Murphy.
>A cabernet from Mendoza that has warmth, a little tannin, lingers nicely,
>with a nice finish of allure.
>Will not ask for a wonderful dance experience, will discover that as we
move
>through the evening.
>Thank you.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
>nina@earthnet.net
>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:03 PM
>To: tango-l@mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
>
>People are free to follow or not to follow the codes, and their choice
>is reflected int he consequences. There is a lot of whining going on
>in all tango communities about the social discomfort, not dancing
>enough, etc. But the bottom line is that tango experience is what you
>make of it. No one is going to bring to anyone on the platter a
>fabulous dance experience, a great milonga, good connection, beautiful
>music, respect, a great dance partner and all those other things that
>that everyone wishes and hopes for. If those great things happen,
>then marvelous and a bit thank you and appreciation are in order. But
>eople just need to decide what they want and go and create it. And
>the tango codes help them to have the same language with others who
>are also there to create their own experience.
>
>Nina
>
>
>Quoting Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>:
>
>
> > Just when I promised myself never to post to Tango-L again....after
> > reading this particular sentence, I nearly choked on my coffee.
> >
> > Codes and Traditions of Tango may have INTENDED to protect dignity and
> > emotions but they are not always adhered to as much as we would like.
> > No need to explain this here because I'm quite sure everyone has had
> > bad moments at Milongas. If those said codes and traditions are not
> > adhered to in a consistent fashion then they are not really
> > traditional, are they? After all the reading I've done on the subject
> > of Tango - particularly from personal perspectives - it seems that
> > tango evokes as much anguish and dejection as it does passion and joy.
> >
> > As for code of conduct - hmmm....the only code of conduct that I see
> > being respected is that an embrace is just an embrace, not a suggestion
> > that the man/woman wants anything more from you than a mutual enjoyment
> > of a tanda. Asides from that, there are always moments of discomforts
> > in a social setting such as a milonga.
> >
> > Don't waste time standing in line-try shopping online. Visit
> > Sympatico / MSN Shopping today! https://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 17:36:41 -0600
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
To: "'Nina Pesochinsky'" <nina@earthnet.net>, "Tango L list"
Ok first, I am going to make a couple of comments then ask that the thread
focus to Tango.
Thank you Nina, and yes I trust your definition of Jung's work. You are
studying this and have a much more in depth knowledge of his work with in
this Psychological discipline than I do.
I believe we are approaching the same thing from totally different avenues.
With in your approach, what Jung brought to the forefront with dream work,
collective conciseness, etc. is amazing. It has helped not only
Psychological fields but other like fields as well. With in these fields
this is cutting edge information and allows these fields to develop
approaches, theory's, teaching methods, and advancements to helping people
that are phenomenal. I believe you could give a much more eloquent
description of what these aspects are and their ramifications.
>From my experience it would be an almost opposite approach. The same thing
happening in Jung's work is the same thing Shamans, medicine men and women,
Yogi's, mystics, etc. have been working with since time immortal. More than
likely if you were to sit down with a competent aboriginal shaman to talk
about dream work (as long as both either can speak the same verbal language
or have a good translator). My guess is you both would have to tailor how
you were speaking about this subject, and would be talking about different
aspects of dreams. But when it comes down to it, would be talking about the
same thing. Then the conversation gets really fun and the laughter, crying
and amazement ensues.
This would be the same type of situation of talking with a Buddhist about
the Bardo states, a Christian mystic about Gnostics, a Rabbi about Qabalah,
a native american (north and south) Medicine man or woman about the
relationship of totem animals. These are just a fraction of examples in the
world.
With the work Joseph Campbell did, absolutely monumental! Not only the
famous interview he did with Bill Moyers as an example. Have you seen this
guy lecture, there are a number of videos out there, and well worth watching
at least a couple. I remember seeing the original Star wars movie when it
first came out and just about any of the people I knew who saw this movie
already knew Luke would make the shot (this is Hollywood you know). What got
our attention was the act of trusting himself, his intuition and the way he
was going to make the shot. Now this is cool stuff!!! Even though our
approaches are different, your current education is different than mine, I
believe we could probably agree on this one point. So given this view, and
the shortest distance between two points factor. It would seem all paths are
pretty much on the same playing field. So it comes down to someone making a
choice for them selves which path they will walk down. Regardless if one
sits in the wilderness with a shaman, sits on a pillow being lead through
zazen meditation, or sits in an office with a Jungian analyst (unless of
course a person is dangerously psychotic, then it is a good thing the choice
will be made for that person, and get that parson meds now). This very thing
would be applicable to the way Nina teaches and the way I teach of which I
am sure we both would have no problem waking the sleeping guy a couple of
emails back. Our approach might be different but believe we have one or two
tools in our teacher's toy box that are similar.
For the codes with in Tango, they are simple. The approach I take is to step
in with my own codes that work very well. Then make a choice if I stand firm
or adjust my own codes to where I find my self and earn my way. I think the
only mixed (single/couple) milonga in BSAS I found was at Gricel on a Friday
night, La Divina and La Marshal. So are the codes new? yes and no. Are the
codes old? well,,, yes and no. If you expect that the codes will be handed
to someone on a silver platter arbitrarily and just because. I am with Nina
on this. However if you want to know if the platter is real or illusion (the
same with the codes). Then you have the hero's journey opening up in front
of you (it only takes one step). To add one quote from Joseph Campbell.
"In the absence of an effective general mythology, each of us has his
private, unrecognized, rudimentary, yet secretly potent pantheon of dream.
The latest incarnation of Oedipus, the continued romance of Beauty and the
Beast, stand this afternoon on the corner of Forty-second Street and Fifth
Avenue, waiting for the traffic light to change.
--Joseph Campbell"
Ahh, Harken. I have Flan to attend to that will be taken to a tango party
this evening.
I would like to ask Nina if she has any thoughts. Then ask the subject be
focused in on Argentine Tango.
But Nina one question, what we have been writing here. Was this all not a
nice dream.
Take care, have nice dances tonight, the Flan smells good.
David Hodgson
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 7:53 PM
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
David,
You wrote:
What I understand about Carl Jung is that he took some concepts that
>have been around for a very long time. Added some new names and ways of
>looking at them, in a really beautiful and effective way. Then made it
>palatable and sale able to the intellectual community. Helping with the
>evolution of what we know as modern psychology (for as humans evolve, the
>concepts, ideals and explanations change as well).
Just a tiny correction... Carl Jung, mostly through dream analysis,
but also through some other work, has presented us with a concept of
the collective unconscious. The implications of his work have been
so profound, that one of the most effective, not ot mention
interesting and extremely useful, instruments of assessment (MBPI)
has been based on his typology of personality. This is not to
mention the much more recent, monumental work of Joseph Campbell, as
well as "The Star Wars", which is "the hero's journey" at its core in
Jungian terms. (Where would we be without "The Star Wars"?!)
The codes and traditions of tango are very, very simple. They serve
a practical purpose - they protect people's dignity and emotions, and
provide guidelines of conduct in a social situations that could
potentially be uncomfortable.
Old or not, the codes of conduct have to serve a practical purpose,
or they need to be changed. One example of a situation where the new
codes must emerge is for the milongas where both single dancers and
couples mix. I believe that such milongas exists only outside of
Argentina. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have never
encountered such milongas in Buenos Aires, with an exception of the
artificial milongas created for festivals.
In this case, there seem to be no old codes of behavior that can be
applied. Again, please correct me if I am wrong. And yet clear
codes of conduct are much needed. Common sense can provide some
guidance, but people often do not share much of the common sense, and
there really is nothing like that anyway because there is nothing
common about it, but you know what I mean!
Warmest regards to every one,
Nina
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 18:59:05 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
To: TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
Hi, David,
Nice little treatise. Kudos! I like everything that Joseph Campbell wrote.
The Jungian psychology may be most useful for the purposes of tango
in terms of the archetypes. If you look at the basic four archetypes
that everyone shares - the child, the saboteur, the prostitute and
the victim.- it can be quite clear, on a case-by-case basis, which
archetype in its shadow or light form is at play at any given moment.
As far as my own approach to tango goes, since David had mentioned
it, all I can do is quote a line from the movie "Raising Arizona",
that 'it is God's own private secret".
I hope that the Flan is good and that all the beauties and the beasts
at the party don't polish it off before I get there. And, yes, it is
all a dream. I hope to wake up dead at the end of it.
Warmest regards to everyone,
Nina
At 05:36 PM 9/30/2006, you wrote:
>Ok first, I am going to make a couple of comments then ask that the thread
>focus to Tango.
>
>Thank you Nina, and yes I trust your definition of Jung's work. You are
>studying this and have a much more in depth knowledge of his work with in
>this Psychological discipline than I do.
>
>I believe we are approaching the same thing from totally different avenues.
>With in your approach, what Jung brought to the forefront with dream work,
>collective conciseness, etc. is amazing. It has helped not only
>Psychological fields but other like fields as well. With in these fields
>this is cutting edge information and allows these fields to develop
>approaches, theory's, teaching methods, and advancements to helping people
>that are phenomenal. I believe you could give a much more eloquent
>description of what these aspects are and their ramifications.
>
> >From my experience it would be an almost opposite approach. The same thing
>happening in Jung's work is the same thing Shamans, medicine men and women,
>Yogi's, mystics, etc. have been working with since time immortal. More than
>likely if you were to sit down with a competent aboriginal shaman to talk
>about dream work (as long as both either can speak the same verbal language
>or have a good translator). My guess is you both would have to tailor how
>you were speaking about this subject, and would be talking about different
>aspects of dreams. But when it comes down to it, would be talking about the
>same thing. Then the conversation gets really fun and the laughter, crying
>and amazement ensues.
>This would be the same type of situation of talking with a Buddhist about
>the Bardo states, a Christian mystic about Gnostics, a Rabbi about Qabalah,
>a native american (north and south) Medicine man or woman about the
>relationship of totem animals. These are just a fraction of examples in the
>world.
>
>With the work Joseph Campbell did, absolutely monumental! Not only the
>famous interview he did with Bill Moyers as an example. Have you seen this
>guy lecture, there are a number of videos out there, and well worth watching
>at least a couple. I remember seeing the original Star wars movie when it
>first came out and just about any of the people I knew who saw this movie
>already knew Luke would make the shot (this is Hollywood you know). What got
>our attention was the act of trusting himself, his intuition and the way he
>was going to make the shot. Now this is cool stuff!!! Even though our
>approaches are different, your current education is different than mine, I
>believe we could probably agree on this one point. So given this view, and
>the shortest distance between two points factor. It would seem all paths are
>pretty much on the same playing field. So it comes down to someone making a
>choice for them selves which path they will walk down. Regardless if one
>sits in the wilderness with a shaman, sits on a pillow being lead through
>zazen meditation, or sits in an office with a Jungian analyst (unless of
>course a person is dangerously psychotic, then it is a good thing the choice
>will be made for that person, and get that parson meds now). This very thing
>would be applicable to the way Nina teaches and the way I teach of which I
>am sure we both would have no problem waking the sleeping guy a couple of
>emails back. Our approach might be different but believe we have one or two
>tools in our teacher's toy box that are similar.
>
>For the codes with in Tango, they are simple. The approach I take is to step
>in with my own codes that work very well. Then make a choice if I stand firm
>or adjust my own codes to where I find my self and earn my way. I think the
>only mixed (single/couple) milonga in BSAS I found was at Gricel on a Friday
>night, La Divina and La Marshal. So are the codes new? yes and no. Are the
>codes old? well,,, yes and no. If you expect that the codes will be handed
>to someone on a silver platter arbitrarily and just because. I am with Nina
>on this. However if you want to know if the platter is real or illusion (the
>same with the codes). Then you have the hero's journey opening up in front
>of you (it only takes one step). To add one quote from Joseph Campbell.
>
>"In the absence of an effective general mythology, each of us has his
>private, unrecognized, rudimentary, yet secretly potent pantheon of dream.
>The latest incarnation of Oedipus, the continued romance of Beauty and the
>Beast, stand this afternoon on the corner of Forty-second Street and Fifth
>Avenue, waiting for the traffic light to change.
>--Joseph Campbell"
>
>Ahh, Harken. I have Flan to attend to that will be taken to a tango party
>this evening.
>I would like to ask Nina if she has any thoughts. Then ask the subject be
>focused in on Argentine Tango.
>But Nina one question, what we have been writing here. Was this all not a
>nice dream.
>Take care, have nice dances tonight, the Flan smells good.
>David Hodgson
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
>Nina Pesochinsky
>Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 7:53 PM
>To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
>
>David,
>
>You wrote:
>
>What I understand about Carl Jung is that he took some concepts that
> >have been around for a very long time. Added some new names and ways of
> >looking at them, in a really beautiful and effective way. Then made it
> >palatable and sale able to the intellectual community. Helping with the
> >evolution of what we know as modern psychology (for as humans evolve, the
> >concepts, ideals and explanations change as well).
>
>
>Just a tiny correction... Carl Jung, mostly through dream analysis,
>but also through some other work, has presented us with a concept of
>the collective unconscious. The implications of his work have been
>so profound, that one of the most effective, not ot mention
>interesting and extremely useful, instruments of assessment (MBPI)
>has been based on his typology of personality. This is not to
>mention the much more recent, monumental work of Joseph Campbell, as
>well as "The Star Wars", which is "the hero's journey" at its core in
>Jungian terms. (Where would we be without "The Star Wars"?!)
>
>The codes and traditions of tango are very, very simple. They serve
>a practical purpose - they protect people's dignity and emotions, and
>provide guidelines of conduct in a social situations that could
>potentially be uncomfortable.
>
>Old or not, the codes of conduct have to serve a practical purpose,
>or they need to be changed. One example of a situation where the new
>codes must emerge is for the milongas where both single dancers and
>couples mix. I believe that such milongas exists only outside of
>Argentina. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have never
>encountered such milongas in Buenos Aires, with an exception of the
>artificial milongas created for festivals.
>
>In this case, there seem to be no old codes of behavior that can be
>applied. Again, please correct me if I am wrong. And yet clear
>codes of conduct are much needed. Common sense can provide some
>guidance, but people often do not share much of the common sense, and
>there really is nothing like that anyway because there is nothing
>common about it, but you know what I mean!
>
>Warmest regards to every one,
>
>Nina
>
>
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 12:33:46 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
To: <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
"The Jungian psychology may be most useful for the purposes of tango
in terms of the archetypes. If you look at the basic four archetypes
that everyone shares - the child, the saboteur, the prostitute and
the victim."
Hm...Nice to know about Mr.Jung's archetypes for tango.
What about a "responsible leader"?
Does someone share it?
Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:15:07 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The call to tango, and "gender polarization"
To: TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
It probably would not be a "responsible" leader, because the word
"responsible" already suggests an empowered archetype. The archetype
is neutral. It has shadow and light forms. If it plays itself out
in a shadow form, then the goal is to move it to the light. That is
what has been called the shadow work in psychology.
Each person has many, many archetypes that can be very unique to that
individual. However, there are some basic archetypes that everyone
has, some of which I had mentioned. I think that a 'responsible
leader" would probably extend beyond the tango experience. It could
be an extension of some heroic archetype, but probably not a knight
or a warrior. On the other hand, it could be either one of those, or
maybe the prince archetype as well, depending whether or not it is
the light or shadow side. What does the knight, warrior, or prince
do? The knight usually is associated with saving the princess, the
warrior's goal is to win (although the enlightened warrior tried to
never draw his sword, and the prince archetype usually never becomes
king, but he could marry the princess. So if one dances to save
the princess, his responsible leader could be springing from the
knight archetype. If the responsible leader focuses on saving the
dance and movements, then it could be the warrior (who usually could
not care less about the princess). If the responsible leader happens
to be a prince archetype, then he will always try to be a king
wihtout ever succeeding (in the shadow).
Anyway, this is fun. I have something new to occupy myself with now
working out archetypes and tango, especially when some milongas bore
me to tears.
Jungian work is much, much more universal (and interesting) than
anything about tango itself. Tango is just one tiny facet of human
experience. When tango seems big and occupies one's life, then that
may be something to look at (and I know this because I have lived the
life of tango for the last 11 years). All I can say, is that it is
best that people own their tango than letting tango own them.
I am sorry, but even though I have many ideas, have fast fingers, and
love the sharing of thoughts and ideas, I am out of time, so you may
not hear from me for a while. I hope that the discussion
continues. Tango is everything and everything is tango. Tango reflects life.
Always with you in the madness of tango,
Nina
At 01:33 PM 10/1/2006, you wrote:
>"The Jungian psychology may be most useful for the purposes of tango
>in terms of the archetypes. If you look at the basic four archetypes
>that everyone shares - the child, the saboteur, the prostitute and
>the victim."
>
>
>Hm...Nice to know about Mr.Jung's archetypes for tango.
>
>What about a "responsible leader"?
>Does someone share it?
>
>Igor Polk
>
>
>
