4869 Can somebody shed some light on the subject
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 22:17:52 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Can somebody shed some light on the subject
To: "Tango L" <Tango-L@Mit.Edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
I came back from the Atlanta Tango Festival today. I enjoyed it. However, I have some questions about cabeceo.
I asked a few people about illumination at milongas in BA. I was told that the lights are completely on. At the milongas I've attended (Washington, DC ,New York, and I'm pretty sure, Miami) the amount of illumination has ranged from twilight to power outage. I don't see how you can use cabeceo with minimal light. A friend of mine at the festival said "Just forget it. Just go and ask." Next milonga, I'm bringing a flare gun and a flashlight.
Now, that brings up another issue. At Atlanta, I couldn't figure out which women wanted to dance when they sit together and talk to each other. I got the impression they didn't want to dance. I probably broke a rule and told a woman at a class I wanted to dance with her at the milonga but couldn't figure out if SHE wanted to dance because she was sitting with other women. She said she told her students not to sit together if they wanted to be asked. That evening she was sitting with her students but I went right up to her with my Count Dracula mesmerizing, hypnotic look. It worked. We danced.
I spoke with the festival promoters about cabeceo. One of them told me that an out-of-town instructor has suggested for years that they teach a class on cabeceo at the festival. I told them I was clueless in figuring out which women want to dance when they sit motionless at a table and don't sweep the room like a radar antenna looking for a partner. I was told that there will be a class at next year's festival. My name for it is "Do you want to dance?" Their name is "How to establish presence on and off the dance floor." I suggest other festivals consider adding a similar class to their schedule. I'm going to push it with the NY Tango Festival committee. Cabeceo works wonderfully on the Staten Island Ferry milonga. One year, I thought the Captain was going to accept a woman's invitation, but he doesn't dance.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Figuratively and literally IN THE DARK
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:13:53 -0400
From: "Fantasia Sorenson" <bichonheels@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Can somebody shed some light on the subject
To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<b0a530950704030713g11c53536qd51e46a7d885d6aa@mail.gmail.com>
On 4/2/07, Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:
>
> I came back from the Atlanta Tango Festival today. I enjoyed it. However,
> I have some questions about cabeceo.
Michael,
One of the private respondants to my last post shared a link with me to a
website called "Tango and Chaos" written by a man named Rick McGarrey.
Incidentally, this ruined me for work the next day. I stayed up all night
and devoured the whole thing! I only got 2 hours sleep. Thanks a lot! ;-)
There's a section in it about the cabeceo. You might find it very
interesting, too.
https://www.tangoandchaos.org/5%20Codes/8Cabaceo.htm#CabTop
As I read it, where the cabeceo is practiced, discriminating women don't
"sweep the room". They focus their attention specifically on those men
they're interested in.
I think the real answer to your question about why the cabeceo doesn't work
is ... nobody really does it here, nor do they want to.
We North Americans aren't really very interested in rules. We always fret
considerably about how this or that rule might restrict our freedoms, so we
flout every rule that anyone mentions just to prove that we can't be
controlled. We aren't really very worried about the loss of any benefit that
this rejection might cause us, just as long as we maintain our independence.
(You might have noticed that this isn't just with tango.) Basically, nobody
practices cabeceo in the U.S. because we don't want to. We don't want to be
told what to do.
I often sit with other girls at milongas and we talk because we don't have
anything else to do while we're sitting and waiting for a dance. Men who
like to dance with me know where to find me, and they do find me when they
want to. Any man who thought he was going to bring the cabeceo to my town
could wag his head all night long like one of those toy dogs with the
bobbing noggin that you sometimes see in the rear of a car. None of us girls
will ever know he's there.
I had so many interesting replies to my "Red Rover" post. Thank you,
everyone! One obvious conclusion from it all is that the way we sit at
milongas here obliterates any practical chance of invitation by cabeceo ever
working. Will North American milongas ever practice Argentine codigos? Let's
just leave that an open question...
Meanwhile, Michael, if you really want to experiment with the cabeceo,
you're going to have to do what I'm doing. Save up your money and your
vacation days and take a trip to South America.
Fan
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:24:49 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Can somebody shed some light on the subject
To: tangomaniac@cavtel.net, Tango-L@Mit.Edu
For better or for worse, not all customs from the milongas in BAires have
been adopted or can be adopted in the good old USA. The cabeceo might well
be one of the customs that does not get fully adopted. Basically, in the USA
the tango scene was initially imported into many cities via second and even
third hand experience. By the time people finally figured out how to even
dance the tango and what music to dance it to, the social customs and local
codes had already been created in an organic way and were well established.
One of the characteristics of the various tango scenes in the US is that
they started small and the people became very familiar with each other. It
is still that way in many places and it's very easy when you know people and
are comfortable with them to just approach them in a natural way and ask
them to dance. Of course, this does not preclude the practice of the
cabeceo. In actuality, it's probably easier to use the cabeceo with people
you already know anyway and they are likely to be receptive.
Personally, I don't think a class on cabeceo is going to do much good. Even
if one could get everyone in the class to put the teaching into effect, it's
not going to work with everybody who did not go tothe class and shows up at
the milonga with their own ingrained habits and sets of social skills. I'm
also a little skeptical about learning "How to establish presence on and off
the dance floor." Who knows, maybe it will work. But I think it will be more
like teaching me how be 25 years old and 6'-2" ;-).... I can go to all the
classes I can and apply myself fully to the learning but I'm dubious of my
chance of success LOL.
Lets not forget another important part of the issue. The bottom line is
whether the people want to dance with you or not. No amount of cabeceo
knowledge and lore is going to work on someone who deliberately avoids
making eye contact with you. Of course Michael I'm not taking about you in
particular. Just using the pronoun in the customary way. OTOH, you bring up
a good point vis-a-vis the level of illumination in the room. I heard from
several women that the lights were too bright at some point. I really did
not mind too much but it seems that some people have a stronger preference
for less light in the dance room at least during the milonga. adequate
lighting would seem to be good because I think it's very important to see
clearly what people are doing and if they are even paying any attention to
you before trying the cabeceo. Actually, it's important to see if they
appear to be busy talking with friends or otherwise engaged before taking a
chance of a verbal invitation. As Nina wrote in her posts, the milongas can
have different flavors and different purposes for different people.
Unfortunately, here in the USA and specially in a tango festival, the
socializing aspect and the "we are here to dance" ideas are both present and
it's awkward to navigate between the two.
Cheers,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
>To: "Tango L" <Tango-L@Mit.Edu>
>CC: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
>Subject: [Tango-L] Can somebody shed some light on the subject
>Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 22:17:52 -0400
>
>I came back from the Atlanta Tango Festival today. I enjoyed it. However, I
>have some questions about cabeceo.
>
>I asked a few people about illumination at milongas in BA. I was told that
>the lights are completely on. At the milongas I've attended (Washington, DC
>,New York, and I'm pretty sure, Miami) the amount of illumination has
>ranged from twilight to power outage. I don't see how you can use cabeceo
>with minimal light. A friend of mine at the festival said "Just forget it.
>Just go and ask." Next milonga, I'm bringing a flare gun and a flashlight.
>
>Now, that brings up another issue. At Atlanta, I couldn't figure out which
>women wanted to dance when they sit together and talk to each other. I got
>the impression they didn't want to dance. I probably broke a rule and told
>a woman at a class I wanted to dance with her at the milonga but couldn't
>figure out if SHE wanted to dance because she was sitting with other women.
>She said she told her students not to sit together if they wanted to be
>asked. That evening she was sitting with her students but I went right up
>to her with my Count Dracula mesmerizing, hypnotic look. It worked. We
>danced.
>
>I spoke with the festival promoters about cabeceo. One of them told me that
>an out-of-town instructor has suggested for years that they teach a class
>on cabeceo at the festival. I told them I was clueless in figuring out
>which women want to dance when they sit motionless at a table and don't
>sweep the room like a radar antenna looking for a partner. I was told that
>there will be a class at next year's festival. My name for it is "Do you
>want to dance?" Their name is "How to establish presence on and off the
>dance floor." I suggest other festivals consider adding a similar class to
>their schedule. I'm going to push it with the NY Tango Festival committee.
>Cabeceo works wonderfully on the Staten Island Ferry milonga. One year, I
>thought the Captain was going to accept a woman's invitation, but he
>doesn't dance.
>
>
>Michael Ditkoff
>Washington, DC
>Figuratively and literally IN THE DARK
>I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
Interest Rates Fall Again! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate new
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Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 08:26:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Can somebody shed some light on the subject
> I think the real answer to your question about why
> the cabeceo doesn't work
> is ... nobody really does it here, nor do they want
> to.
CORRECTION: I have successfully used the cabaceo in
Miami, Atlanta, Portland, Denver for many years. Of
course, you may consider me a 'nobody'.
Nancy
<<Rito es la danza en tu vida
y el tango que tu amas
te quema en su llama>>
de: Bailarina de tango
por: Horacio Sanguinetti
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:38:59 EDT
From: MACFroggy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Can somebody shed some light on the subject
To: tango-l@mit.edu
When I first came down here to BsAs, I was totally surprised at the bright
lighting of the dance floor in the milongas.
And then when the DJ plays a tanda of tropical, the lights go down!
I love it, that it's so different from the U.S.
And that includes the very special cabaceo, which makes me as a woman feel
safe and secure and powerful.
Cherie
https://tangocherie.blogspot.com/
See what's free at https://www.aol.com.
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:47:25 -0400
From: "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Can somebody shed some light on the subject
To: tango-l@mit.edu
It?s an interesting question of whether the chances are better for women to
get asked to dance if they sit alone, together, or in a mixed group, which
is often as not dependent on the fragility of the egos of the males in
attendance. As already noted, in North America women who sit together
frequently form a group and start talking with each other. My experience
>from the milongas in BsAs is that women, even when they are sitting
closely, often have very limited conversation with other women. It?s
simply a cultural difference. If we tried to usher men and women to
opposite sides in N.A., as one person suggested, I think we would also have
to instruct the women to refrain from socializing too much with the other
women! Somehow, I just don?t think imposing this much Argentine cultural
would work very well.
Regarding the cabeceo, it certainly isn?t exclusive to the culture of
Argentine milongas. The nonverbal exchange of ?glances across the room?
can be found in some form at virtually all social gatherings to catch
someone?s attention, to show discrete interest. It just isn?t quite as
institutionalized as it is in the milongas of BsAs.
Much of the interest in doing the cabeceo at N.A. milongas seems related to
our struggle over how ?authentic? our tango must be. Some apparently
believe that it is not enough to try to be ?authentic? in the movements of
the dance, but that we must also attempt to somehow recreate the cultural
environment. We can push this not just to the point of being impractical,
but also to point where it becomes absurb. If we expect the nonverbal
cabeceo to become the standard method of asking someone to dance at a North
American milonga, perhaps we could also begin promoting having our verbal
conversations in Lunfardo, just to be authentic!
To me, the true authentic tango lies in that intimate connection that
occurs between two people on the piso, and that moment can transcend
cultural differences. Certainly it can occur without speaking the same
language as our partner, with the lights high or low, anywhere in the
world. I have asked partners to dance and have been asked, I have nodded
and been nodded at. Neither approach has seemed to have absolutely any
impact on predicting the possibility of that magical moment. How any two
partners meet, how they manage to end up in that intimate embrace, the
depth of her neckline and the height of her heels, all become irrelevant
once the music starts.
When we come to dance the tango, we are preparing to engage in a very
intimate and passionate activity. That is what makes tango special. The
point of all of the codes and the formality of the environment is to
establish a ?safe? zone where we can feel confident to surrender ourselves
to our partner and the music. If we try to force a cultural environment
that doesn?t fit the social dynamics of the group, we risk destroying that
very essential feeling of comfort necessary for finding, in my opinion, the
authentic tango.
W.B.Smith
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Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 11:37:01 -0400
From: "Fantasia Sorenson" <bichonheels@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Can somebody shed some light on the subject
To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<b0a530950704030837s3f9b7569q2764261c43f6f3ee@mail.gmail.com>
On 4/3/07, NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> CORRECTION: I have successfully used the cabaceo in
> Miami, Atlanta, Portland, Denver for many years. Of
> course, you may consider me a 'nobody'.
>
Nancy,
Certainly I would not ever call you or anybody else a "nobody", and I stand
corrected. :-)
Fan
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 09:44:17 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Can somebody shed some light on the subject
To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Fan,
You said that no one in the US practices cabeceo. I completely and
absolutely disagree.
In Denver, it is practiced and learned by the new dancers fairly
early. There is a Memorial Day Milonguero Festival in Denver that is
coming up and the years of this festival have shown that the best of
the best dancers would not even think of inviting or accepting an
invitation any other way.
Personally, regardless of the continent where I dance, I will not
accept an invitation that comes verbally, unless I am with my partner
at a milonga where we sit together or I am chatting with a good friend.
Verbal invitations can often create tense and unpleasant
situations. If a man looks at a woman and she does not respond, no
one sees that he was turned down. If a woman looks at a man she
wants to dance with and he does not respond, no one knows that she
was turned down. This practice allows people to keep their dignity
and have a freedom to say yes or no without the pressure of "not
hurting anybody's feelings". (I hate that expression with a passion!)
And when women come up to the men and verbally ask them to
dance... uh, don't get me started! When they do that, It is an
embarrassment to the sisterhood! These are the women who have not
mastered any of the feminine arts - charm, seduction, persuasion,
etc. I read some place a fine definition of charm - getting a yes
without asking a question. Women who come up and ask a man for a
dance have no dignity. They are willing to sell whatever dignity
they may have had for dances. In my view, no dance and no man is worth it.
But not asking is not a passive experience. You do not sit there
waiting to be collected for a dance. Women do invite, with their
eyes. So you have to look who you want to dance with and who is
available and pay attention to when they become available. Chatting
with girlfriends and paying no attention to the surrounding is not
conducive to positive dance experiences.
I hate crazy American milongas, or any milongas, where there are no
rules of conduct. The behavior of people who do not know how to
behave because they were not informed can be so out-of-line that a
quality dance experience becomes impossible in such places.
I think that it is unjust and unfair to teach people to get into the
Argentine tango embrace and ask them to dance without teaching them
the rules of conduct. The closeness and intimacy of the dance must
be protected and the rules will do that. Cabeceo is one of those
rules. It is graceful and discrete. When I person is turned down
with a cabeceo, it can be done in such a way that will not prevent a
future invitation between these partners. A verbal refusal is pretty
much a guarantee that a person will not ask again.
Investing in learning and practicing the rules can greatly enhance
one's experience of the dance.
Tango is a great place to find and practice what may be missing, such
as proper boundaries, etc., - different things for different people.
The other thing is that Argentine tango as a dance was defined by
these rules and greatly influenced in its development by the conduct
of people and what was acceptable or not and for what reason. some
reasons are universal and do not change with times. I see dignity
and respect in tango as values that do not change and that are still
as powerful and as important as they were decades ago.
Warm regards to all,
Nina
At 08:13 AM 4/3/2007, Fantasia Sorenson wrote:
>On 4/2/07, Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:
> >
> > I came back from the Atlanta Tango Festival today. I enjoyed it. However,
> > I have some questions about cabeceo.
>
>
>
>Michael,
>
>One of the private respondants to my last post shared a link with me to a
>website called "Tango and Chaos" written by a man named Rick McGarrey.
>Incidentally, this ruined me for work the next day. I stayed up all night
>and devoured the whole thing! I only got 2 hours sleep. Thanks a lot! ;-)
>
>There's a section in it about the cabeceo. You might find it very
>interesting, too.
>
>https://www.tangoandchaos.org/5%20Codes/8Cabaceo.htm#CabTop
>
>As I read it, where the cabeceo is practiced, discriminating women don't
>"sweep the room". They focus their attention specifically on those men
>they're interested in.
>
>I think the real answer to your question about why the cabeceo doesn't work
>is ... nobody really does it here, nor do they want to.
>
>We North Americans aren't really very interested in rules. We always fret
>considerably about how this or that rule might restrict our freedoms, so we
>flout every rule that anyone mentions just to prove that we can't be
>controlled. We aren't really very worried about the loss of any benefit that
>this rejection might cause us, just as long as we maintain our independence.
>(You might have noticed that this isn't just with tango.) Basically, nobody
>practices cabeceo in the U.S. because we don't want to. We don't want to be
>told what to do.
>
>I often sit with other girls at milongas and we talk because we don't have
>anything else to do while we're sitting and waiting for a dance. Men who
>like to dance with me know where to find me, and they do find me when they
>want to. Any man who thought he was going to bring the cabeceo to my town
>could wag his head all night long like one of those toy dogs with the
>bobbing noggin that you sometimes see in the rear of a car. None of us girls
>will ever know he's there.
>
>I had so many interesting replies to my "Red Rover" post. Thank you,
>everyone! One obvious conclusion from it all is that the way we sit at
>milongas here obliterates any practical chance of invitation by cabeceo ever
>working. Will North American milongas ever practice Argentine codigos? Let's
>just leave that an open question...
>
>Meanwhile, Michael, if you really want to experiment with the cabeceo,
>you're going to have to do what I'm doing. Save up your money and your
>vacation days and take a trip to South America.
>
>Fan
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:12:42 -0300
From: Robin Tara <rtara@maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Can somebody shed some light on the subject
To: Tango L list <tango-l@mit.edu>
Does anyone remember the guy at Italia Unita who used a laser pointer to
request dances?
Robin
