4820  Canyengue as a musical term rather than a dance

Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:51:49 -0500
From: "Barnes, Bob" <BBarnes@mpr.org>
Subject: [Tango-L] Canyengue as a musical term rather than a dance
style.
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Hi-

Canyengue is a whole can of worms when applied to classical musicians.
Jazz musicians instinctively know how to swing and how much or how
little to add depending on taste. Your example of Sidney Bechet (early
dixieland) and Glen Miller ("In the mood", about 30 years later) is apt.
The earlier music did not have as much swing as the later ones.
Different musicians added different amounts of swing to a phrase. For
instance, check out the difference between Louis Armstrong and Miles
Davis playing "Bye Bye Blackbird". Armstrong's 8ths are very linting
and uneven, where Davis plays much stratighter 8ths. I'm sure dancers
would interpret both of them differently.

In both Tango and Jazz, much of the musicality is what is not written on
the page. If you play the notes exactly as written, it will sound OK,
but will miss some "spark" or "soul". This is where swing or canyengue
comes in. To complicate things further, Tango music is completely
arranged (w/ almost no improv) and Jazz relies heavily on improv with
complicated arrangments occuring only on the "tops and tails" (start and
end) of a tune. In both tango and jazz arrangments, the notes are
usually written "straight" and the players add swing/canyengeu to taste.
The musicians devote years of their live becomeing immersed in the
musica culture and instinctively know what sounds right and what
doesn't.

Now for the big wrench in the works: Classical Musicians. They may are
may not be familiar w/ swing, jazz or tango. The orignal question in
this thread refered to an orchestral piece by Piazzolla. Orchestral
musicians can not be expected to "swing" or "canyengue", so the figures
are generally written out for them. This also makes sure that a section
of 20 violins swings or canyngues togheter. The marking "acanyengado"
would make more sense for a soloist than a section.

Guardia Vieja groups play with less canyengue than, say, late Pugliese
or Troilo. Modern Tango groups (Color Tango, El arranque, Tango Forever
Orchestra) tend to play with a lot of it.

I'm sure someone could write a PhD thesis on the musical concept of
canyengue. Unfortunately, I'm not a musicologist and I need to get back
to work now.

I hope this make some sense.

-Bob
https://www.mandragoratango.com

> Bob, do you actually see "canyengue" this direction written out in

tango sheet music (to the extent that one actually sees any original
scores)?

> Or is it the way the music is labeled after recording, ie, for

listening or for dancing consumption (ie "In the Mood" is IIRC a
"quickstep" on the 78, even though it obviously "swings").

> We had a similar discussion on a lindy hop board about the 'swung

note'.

> All the "jam by myself to early jazz doing choreographed routines of

charleston moves" enthusiasts insist that it is appropriate to play an
entire evening of early Sidney Bechet and still call it "swing night"
even though there will be no music played that has any significant
amount of swung rhythm. Citations to the wiki definition of "swung
note" to no avail.

> So are you saying from your standpoint that canyengue is a rhythm or a

manner of playing associated with a particular era (or perhaps with
certain composers, or orchestras)? Is is possible to play many tango
compositions 'acanyengando,' just as you can 'swing' just about any jazz
song? (obviously one's MMV, some results much better than others)

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:11:44 +0000 (GMT)
From: Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI <arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Canyengue as a musical term rather than a dance
style.
To: "Barnes, Bob" <BBarnes@mpr.org>, tango-l@mit.edu

Hi All,

Canyengue, technically speaking in musical terms,
means slapping the [double] bass, pioneered by
Leopoldo Thompson around 1910:
https://www.elportaldeltango.com.ar/english/orchestras/English/firpoingles.htm
https://www.todotango.com/spanish/creadores/lthompson.asp
It was also popular from around 1920 in jazz, mainly
New Orleans.

Robert Farris Thompson tells us:
"Canyengue in music is like the term duende in
flamenco. Like the term salanc in the folk music of
Catalu?a. Salanc in Catal?n, duende in Spanish, swing
in U.S. jazz parlance, all of the above. Canyengue
means you know how to swing, you've got the flavor,
you're culturally appropriate. And the first
historical notice ? one of the first ? Canaro, the
great orchestra leader, Canaro had a black bassist ? I
call him the Cachao of tango, a big, powerful black
bassist -- and his name was Ruperto [Leopoldo]
Thompson..... And Ruperto was famed for introducing
[percusses] drumming the side of his bass. And also
striking, sometimes drumming, the strings. And he
started the tradition of canyengue, that is, the
drum-izing, or turning melodic instruments into
percussion instruments. And that is canyengue, when
percussion begins to dominate at highly sophisticated
levels, which is one of the definitions of swing, then
you've got canyengue. And if you dance with a kind of
rhythmic flair, you have canyengue."

https://www.afropop.org/multi/interview/ID/86/Robert+Farris+Thompson-2005/

I haven't been able to hear the Piazzolla piece Igor
refers to, but there presumably should be some
bass-slapping on it. If not, Piazolla might be
referring to the "social" meaning of the word, i.e.
"sleazy-like, uncouth". Remember that Piazzolla
constantly went back to the roots of tango, in
reaction to the very polished stuff that was played at
the time.

https://www.planet-tango.com/lyrics/elchoclo.htm
https://www.blackwellassociates.com/tangoterms.html

Cheers,

Andy.

--- "Barnes, Bob" <BBarnes@mpr.org> wrote:

> Hi-
>
> Canyengue is a whole can of worms when applied to
> classical musicians.
> Jazz musicians instinctively know how to swing and
> how much or how
> little to add depending on taste. Your example of
> Sidney Bechet (early
> dixieland) and Glen Miller ("In the mood", about 30
> years later) is apt.
> The earlier music did not have as much swing as the
> later ones.
> Different musicians added different amounts of swing
> to a phrase. For
> instance, check out the difference between Louis
> Armstrong and Miles
> Davis playing "Bye Bye Blackbird". Armstrong's 8ths
> are very linting
> and uneven, where Davis plays much stratighter 8ths.
> I'm sure dancers
> would interpret both of them differently.
>
> In both Tango and Jazz, much of the musicality is
> what is not written on
> the page. If you play the notes exactly as written,
> it will sound OK,
> but will miss some "spark" or "soul". This is where
> swing or canyengue
> comes in. To complicate things further, Tango music
> is completely
> arranged (w/ almost no improv) and Jazz relies
> heavily on improv with
> complicated arrangments occuring only on the "tops
> and tails" (start and
> end) of a tune. In both tango and jazz arrangments,
> the notes are
> usually written "straight" and the players add
> swing/canyengeu to taste.
> The musicians devote years of their live becomeing
> immersed in the
> musica culture and instinctively know what sounds
> right and what
> doesn't.
>
> Now for the big wrench in the works: Classical
> Musicians. They may are
> may not be familiar w/ swing, jazz or tango. The
> orignal question in
> this thread refered to an orchestral piece by
> Piazzolla. Orchestral
> musicians can not be expected to "swing" or
> "canyengue", so the figures
> are generally written out for them. This also makes
> sure that a section
> of 20 violins swings or canyngues togheter. The
> marking "acanyengado"
> would make more sense for a soloist than a section.
>
>
> Guardia Vieja groups play with less canyengue than,
> say, late Pugliese
> or Troilo. Modern Tango groups (Color Tango, El
> arranque, Tango Forever
> Orchestra) tend to play with a lot of it.
>
> I'm sure someone could write a PhD thesis on the
> musical concept of
> canyengue. Unfortunately, I'm not a musicologist
> and I need to get back
> to work now.
>
> I hope this make some sense.
>
> -Bob
> https://www.mandragoratango.com
>

Andrew W. RYSER SZYMA?SKI,
23b All Saints Road,
London, W11 1HE,
07944 128 739.

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 16:24:35 -0400
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Canyengue as a musical term rather than a dance
style.
To: Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI <arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk>, tango-l@mit.edu

Wow! This is some beautiful information :)

Thank you very much!!

Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Canyengue, technically speaking in musical terms,
> means slapping the [double] bass, pioneered by
> Leopoldo Thompson around 1910:
> https://www.elportaldeltango.com.ar/english/orchestras/English/firpoingles.htm
> https://www.todotango.com/spanish/creadores/lthompson.asp
> It was also popular from around 1920 in jazz, mainly
> New Orleans.
>
> Robert Farris Thompson tells us:
> "Canyengue in music is like the term duende in
> flamenco. Like the term salanc in the folk music of
> Catalu?a. Salanc in Catal?n, duende in Spanish, swing
> in U.S. jazz parlance, all of the above. Canyengue
> means you know how to swing, you've got the flavor,
> you're culturally appropriate. And the first
> historical notice ? one of the first ? Canaro, the
> great orchestra leader, Canaro had a black bassist ? I
> call him the Cachao of tango, a big, powerful black
> bassist -- and his name was Ruperto [Leopoldo]
> Thompson..... And Ruperto was famed for introducing
> [percusses] drumming the side of his bass. And also
> striking, sometimes drumming, the strings. And he
> started the tradition of canyengue, that is, the
> drum-izing, or turning melodic instruments into
> percussion instruments. And that is canyengue, when
> percussion begins to dominate at highly sophisticated
> levels, which is one of the definitions of swing, then
> you've got canyengue. And if you dance with a kind of
> rhythmic flair, you have canyengue."
>
> https://www.afropop.org/multi/interview/ID/86/Robert+Farris+Thompson-2005/
>
> I haven't been able to hear the Piazzolla piece Igor
> refers to, but there presumably should be some
> bass-slapping on it. If not, Piazolla might be
> referring to the "social" meaning of the word, i.e.
> "sleazy-like, uncouth". Remember that Piazzolla
> constantly went back to the roots of tango, in
> reaction to the very polished stuff that was played at
> the time.
>
> https://www.planet-tango.com/lyrics/elchoclo.htm
> https://www.blackwellassociates.com/tangoterms.html
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy.
>
> --- "Barnes, Bob" <BBarnes@mpr.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi-
>>
>>Canyengue is a whole can of worms when applied to
>>classical musicians.
>>Jazz musicians instinctively know how to swing and
>>how much or how
>>little to add depending on taste. Your example of
>>Sidney Bechet (early
>>dixieland) and Glen Miller ("In the mood", about 30
>>years later) is apt.
>>The earlier music did not have as much swing as the
>>later ones.
>>Different musicians added different amounts of swing
>>to a phrase. For
>>instance, check out the difference between Louis
>>Armstrong and Miles
>>Davis playing "Bye Bye Blackbird". Armstrong's 8ths
>>are very linting
>>and uneven, where Davis plays much stratighter 8ths.
>> I'm sure dancers
>>would interpret both of them differently.
>>
>>In both Tango and Jazz, much of the musicality is
>>what is not written on
>>the page. If you play the notes exactly as written,
>>it will sound OK,
>>but will miss some "spark" or "soul". This is where
>>swing or canyengue
>>comes in. To complicate things further, Tango music
>>is completely
>>arranged (w/ almost no improv) and Jazz relies
>>heavily on improv with
>>complicated arrangments occuring only on the "tops
>>and tails" (start and
>>end) of a tune. In both tango and jazz arrangments,
>>the notes are
>>usually written "straight" and the players add
>>swing/canyengeu to taste.
>>The musicians devote years of their live becomeing
>>immersed in the
>>musica culture and instinctively know what sounds
>>right and what
>>doesn't.
>>
>>Now for the big wrench in the works: Classical
>>Musicians. They may are
>>may not be familiar w/ swing, jazz or tango. The
>>orignal question in
>>this thread refered to an orchestral piece by
>>Piazzolla. Orchestral
>>musicians can not be expected to "swing" or
>>"canyengue", so the figures
>>are generally written out for them. This also makes
>>sure that a section
>>of 20 violins swings or canyngues togheter. The
>>marking "acanyengado"
>>would make more sense for a soloist than a section.
>>
>>
>>Guardia Vieja groups play with less canyengue than,
>>say, late Pugliese
>>or Troilo. Modern Tango groups (Color Tango, El
>>arranque, Tango Forever
>>Orchestra) tend to play with a lot of it.
>>
>>I'm sure someone could write a PhD thesis on the
>>musical concept of
>>canyengue. Unfortunately, I'm not a musicologist
>>and I need to get back
>>to work now.
>>
>>I hope this make some sense.
>>
>>-Bob
>>https://www.mandragoratango.com
>>
>
>
>
> Andrew W. RYSER SZYMA?SKI,
> 23b All Saints Road,
> London, W11 1HE,
> 07944 128 739.
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
business, technology, entertainment and media law
"practical legal solutions for creative people"
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://www.arborlaw.com

"When grain is made into refined white flour, more than 30
essential nutrients are largely removed. Only four of those
nutrients are added back in a process called "enrichment."
Using this same logic, if a person were robbed of 30 dollars
and the thief then returned 4 dollars to his victim for cab
fare home, then that person should be considered "enriched"
by 4 dollars, not robbed of 26." -- Elmer M. Cranton, M.D.

Updates in business, technology, entertainment and media law

a r b o r l a w -- https://www.arborlaw.com/blog/

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:15:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: [Tango-L] Canyengue as a musical term rather than a dance
style.
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Dear friends , follows some words , will explain below the meaning

Ocili oco muele Suku a sola oluali, wa eca Omolahe ongunga hati ,wosi o tava kokuahe ka ka nyolehe, o ka kuata muele omuenyo kopui.

This is umbundu/quinbundo, one of the 36 dialects that are still spoken in Angola, an african country over the atlantic ocean . Although the official language of the country is portuguese, being an old portuguese colony, later independent.


This words are taken from John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

It is not the purpose of this comment to spread the Godspell into a tango community, but to present the way this dialect is spoken, since in umbundu/quinbundu , ka llenge was the word to design a dance made by local african natives.

There is certain uncertainty in considering the canyengue as special musical term or a tango arrangement of music.


As far as I can found in local books of Buenos Aires, the word ka llengue came to America with the slaves, it changed locally to canyengue, and was used to describe the dances of the afroamerican slaves in America .

There are some books on afro american culture in the basin of Rio de la Plata, written many years ago by an argentine researcher, Ortiz Oderigo, which are being recovered from oblivion , by a local university specialized in alien cultures,m with a department of Afro American cultures.

This research on canyengue meaning, is part of a silent and patient work from this author, Ortiz Oderigo, and is good o spread the news I think


take care
alberto
Mensaje original ----
De: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Para: Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI <arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk>; tango-l@mit.edu
Enviado: jueves 15 de marzo de 2007, 17:24:35
Asunto: Re: [Tango-L] Canyengue as a musical term rather than a dance style.


Wow! This is some beautiful information :)

Thank you very much!!

Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Canyengue, technically speaking in musical terms,
> means slapping the [double] bass, pioneered by
> Leopoldo Thompson around 1910:
> https://www.elportaldeltango.com.ar/english/orchestras/English/firpoingles.htm
> https://www.todotango.com/spanish/creadores/lthompson.asp
> It was also popular from around 1920 in jazz, mainly
> New Orleans.
>
> Robert Farris Thompson tells us:
> "Canyengue in music is like the term duende in
> flamenco. Like the term salanc in the folk music of
> Catalu?a. Salanc in Catal?n, duende in Spanish, swing
> in U.S. jazz parlance, all of the above. Canyengue
> means you know how to swing, you've got the flavor,
> you're culturally appropriate. And the first
> historical notice ? one of the first ? Canaro, the
> great orchestra leader, Canaro had a black bassist ? I
> call him the Cachao of tango, a big, powerful black
> bassist -- and his name was Ruperto [Leopoldo]
> Thompson..... And Ruperto was famed for introducing
> [percusses] drumming the side of his bass. And also
> striking, sometimes drumming, the strings. And he
> started the tradition of canyengue, that is, the
> drum-izing, or turning melodic instruments into
> percussion instruments. And that is canyengue, when
> percussion begins to dominate at highly sophisticated
> levels, which is one of the definitions of swing, then
> you've got canyengue. And if you dance with a kind of
> rhythmic flair, you have canyengue."
>
> https://www.afropop.org/multi/interview/ID/86/Robert+Farris+Thompson-2005/
>
> I haven't been able to hear the Piazzolla piece Igor
> refers to, but there presumably should be some
> bass-slapping on it. If not, Piazolla might be
> referring to the "social" meaning of the word, i.e.
> "sleazy-like, uncouth". Remember that Piazzolla
> constantly went back to the roots of tango, in
> reaction to the very polished stuff that was played at
> the time.
>
> https://www.planet-tango.com/lyrics/elchoclo.htm
> https://www.blackwellassociates.com/tangoterms.html
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy.
>
> --- "Barnes, Bob" <BBarnes@mpr.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi-
>>
>>Canyengue is a whole can of worms when applied to
>>classical musicians.
>>Jazz musicians instinctively know how to swing and
>>how much or how
>>little to add depending on taste. Your example of
>>Sidney Bechet (early
>>dixieland) and Glen Miller ("In the mood", about 30
>>years later) is apt.
>>The earlier music did not have as much swing as the
>>later ones.
>>Different musicians added different amounts of swing
>>to a phrase. For
>>instance, check out the difference between Louis
>>Armstrong and Miles
>>Davis playing "Bye Bye Blackbird". Armstrong's 8ths
>>are very linting
>>and uneven, where Davis plays much stratighter 8ths.
>> I'm sure dancers
>>would interpret both of them differently.
>>
>>In both Tango and Jazz, much of the musicality is
>>what is not written on
>>the page. If you play the notes exactly as written,
>>it will sound OK,
>>but will miss some "spark" or "soul". This is where
>>swing or canyengue
>>comes in. To complicate things further, Tango music
>>is completely
>>arranged (w/ almost no improv) and Jazz relies
>>heavily on improv with
>>complicated arrangments occuring only on the "tops
>>and tails" (start and
>>end) of a tune. In both tango and jazz arrangments,
>>the notes are
>>usually written "straight" and the players add
>>swing/canyengeu to taste.
>>The musicians devote years of their live becomeing
>>immersed in the
>>musica culture and instinctively know what sounds
>>right and what
>>doesn't.
>>
>>Now for the big wrench in the works: Classical
>>Musicians. They may are
>>may not be familiar w/ swing, jazz or tango. The
>>orignal question in
>>this thread refered to an orchestral piece by
>>Piazzolla. Orchestral
>>musicians can not be expected to "swing" or
>>"canyengue", so the figures
>>are generally written out for them. This also makes
>>sure that a section
>>of 20 violins swings or canyngues togheter. The
>>marking "acanyengado"
>>would make more sense for a soloist than a section.
>>
>>
>>Guardia Vieja groups play with less canyengue than,
>>say, late Pugliese
>>or Troilo. Modern Tango groups (Color Tango, El
>>arranque, Tango Forever
>>Orchestra) tend to play with a lot of it.
>>
>>I'm sure someone could write a PhD thesis on the
>>musical concept of
>>canyengue. Unfortunately, I'm not a musicologist
>>and I need to get back
>>to work now.
>>
>>I hope this make some sense.
>>
>>-Bob
>>https://www.mandragoratango.com
>>
>
>
>
> Andrew W. RYSER SZYMA?SKI,
> 23b All Saints Road,
> London, W11 1HE,
> 07944 128 739.
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw Associates PLLC
business, technology, entertainment and media law
"practical legal solutions for creative people"
Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://www.arborlaw.com

"When grain is made into refined white flour, more than 30
essential nutrients are largely removed. Only four of those
nutrients are added back in a process called "enrichment."
Using this same logic, if a person were robbed of 30 dollars
and the thief then returned 4 dollars to his victim for cab
fare home, then that person should be considered "enriched"
by 4 dollars, not robbed of 26." -- Elmer M. Cranton, M.D.

Updates in business, technology, entertainment and media law

a r b o r l a w -- https://www.arborlaw.com/blog/






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