1933  Castilian vs.Spanish

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:45:01 -0500
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Castilian vs.Spanish

Spain has four languages and several dialects.
The languages of Spain are: Castilian (the official one), Catalonian, Basque
and Galician. There are several dialects such as Valencian and others.

Castilian became the language of the Spanish colonies.

Article 3 of the Spanish Constitution states that Castilian is the official
language of Spain. All Spaniards have the duty to know it and the right to
use it.
Castilian, which is spoken in all the national Spanish territory, Equatorial
Guinea, the former Spanish territory of Sahara, Central and South America
(except Brazil and the Guyana) and parts of the Philippines, is the official
and cultural language of some 400 million people the world over. Of these,
nearly 350 million speak it as their mother tongue. These figures make the
official language of the Spanish State the most widely spoken Romance
language, an expressive instrument of a community which embraces two
different worlds and which is spoken by people of different races.
Declared the official language of Spain by Philip VS. in 1714, it is usually
known as Spanish, a name that was already used in the Middle Ages in
Castile, and frequently by the grammarians and authors of the 16th and 17th
centuries.
The Spanish Royal Academy preferred to say Castilian until the 1925 edition
of its Dictionary, when it adopted the name of Spanish. The Real Academia
Espanola located in Madrid, is entrusted with "purifying, clarifying and
giving splendor" to the language, in close contact with other Latin American
academies, and mitigating the problems arising from the use of a language
spoken in such a large geographic expanse. Its members are recruited from
among the most prestigious literary creators and erudites.

It is unique all over the world, it has different intonation depending on
the geographical areas, the same as the English spoken in Alabama or in
Boston. It is a very rich language, some words are in use in some areas of
the world while they may have fallen in disuse in others but all Castilian
speakers understand each other it does not matter where they live.

As Manuel says some countries use native indigenous words to describe
certain foods that are not used in others, some words could have a local
meaning unknown in other areas but this does not cause any language barrier.

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:34:43 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Castilian vs.Spanish

Sergio writes:

> The Spanish Royal Academy preferred to say Castilian until
> the 1925 edition of its Dictionary, when it adopted the name
> of Spanish.

Thanks so much for posting this, Sergio! There's been
a few people on this list in the past who have gotten a bug
up their ass when people have referred to the language as
"Spanish," and it was really getting tiresome.

Huck

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:38:36 -0800
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Castilian vs.Spanish

--- Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU> wrote:

> Thanks so much for posting this, Sergio!
> There's been
> a few people on this list in the past who have
> gotten a bug
> up their ass when people have referred to the
> language as
> "Spanish," and it was really getting tiresome.
>
> Huck

Interestingly, the Argentines say they speak
"castellano" and the folks in Spain speak "espanol".
But we won't get into the implications of that,
either. ;-)

Nancy
Gringa y profesora de espanol/castellano

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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:40:44 -0500
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Castilian vs.Spanish II

We have seen then that the maximum authority of the language the "Spanish
Royal Academy of letters", started to use the name "Spanish" in reference to
Castilian after 1925 for its dictionary.

Argentina never adopted the name "Spanish" it continued to use the term
"Castilian".
We were taught in school that our language's name is Castilian. I never
heard the name "Spanish" in that context until I went to the USA.

Having said that I must agree that the term "Spanish" in this reference is
correct.

When Alberto said that it is difficult to translate from "Argentinean
Castilian" to English, (he will correct me if I am wrong), he is referring
to the fact that many words used in tango are derived from slang (lunfardo).
One has to be conversant with both the Argentinean and the American slangs
in order to make a proper translation under those circumstances.

Let's take for instance : " Parate en la puerta y campanea las minas que
sepan bailar"

In proper English "Stand by the door and look at the ladies that know how to
dance" but it is slang so perhaps a more proper translation could be
"Stand by the door and scope out for the chicks that know how to dance".

It should be clearly understood that the Castilian language is only one,
spoken and written the same way all over the Spanish speaking countries of
the world.

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:06:17 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Castilian vs.Spanish

> Interestingly, the Argentines say they speak
> "castellano" and the folks in Spain speak "espanol".
> But we won't get into the implications of that,
> either. ;-)
>
> Nancy
> Gringa y profesora de espanol/castellano

This is not entirely correct. We have a school for Spanish (??) language in
Tokyo,which is run entirely by teachers born in the Madrid area. The name of
the institution is "Academia Castilla". When I asked the owner, why it is
called like that, he said:"Because that is what we teach. Castilian
language, which is the correct name for the language of Spain."
Speaking of which, in Andalucia I was asked by some foreign tourists:"Do you
understand the way they speak here? The dialect is so strong, I can hardly
follow." I said:"Yes, it is much easier for me than listening to people from
Madrid, because a) I learned my Spanish in Catalonia ('Whoa !', they said),
and b) the Andalucian dialect sounds almost the same as the Argentine to me,
which is what I am used to these days."
It would be interesting to know if the Andalusian dialect (one
characteristic: the swallowing of the s-sounds, esp. at the end of words)
was brought to Argentina along with the zapateo.

Astrid

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:47:22 -0800
From: Catrina Imports <catrinaimports@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Castilian vs.Spanish

I wasn't going to say anything, but as a linguist and
former professor, I just can't bite my tongue any
longer...

When talking about what words mean, it's important to
keep in mind the language being spoken and the context
in which the words are used.

In English, the language common to Spain, Mexico and
Argentina (among other places) is called "Spanish". To
refer to it as "Castilian" invites confusion because
in English we usually use the word "Castilian" to
refer to the dialect spoken in the Castile region of
Spain. When translating a phrase like "el castellano
hablando en Uruguay" we say "the Spanish spoken in
Uruguay".

In Spanish, the same language is called "espan~ol" in
some countries and "castellano" in other countries. In
Mexico the Spanish language is called "espan~ol"; in
Argentina the Spanish language is called "castellano".
The difference here is a regional one, not a question
of correct or incorrect, standard or substandard.

Some Spanish-speakers will argue that the only correct
term is "castellano" and that "espan~ol" is incorrect.
However, professionals and academics in linguistics
and related fields on both sides of the Atlantic don't
take that view seriously.

When using English, the best way to talk about the
language spoken in Argentina is to refer to it as
"Spanish", not "Castilian".

saludos,
Kate





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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:01:39 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Castilian vs.Spanish

After Sergio wrote:

>The languages of Spain are: Castilian (the official one),
>Catalonian, Basque and Galician. There are several dialects
>such as Valencian and others. ...
>Article 3 of the Spanish Constitution states that Castilian
>is the official language of Spain. All Spaniards have the duty
>to know it and the right to use it. ...
>The Spanish Royal Academy preferred to say Castilian until
>the 1925 edition of its Dictionary, when it adopted the name
>of Spanish. ...

>Castilian became the language of the Spanish colonies.

Nancy wrote:

>Interestingly, the Argentines say they speak
>"castellano" and the folks in Spain speak "espanol".
>But we won't get into the implications of that,
>either. ;-)

Astrid replied:

>This is not entirely correct. We have a school for Spanish (??)
>language in Tokyo,which is run entirely by teachers born in the
>Madrid area. The name of the institution is "Academia Castilla".
>When I asked the owner, why it is called like that, he said:
>"Because that is what we teach. Castilian language, which is
>the correct name for the language of Spain."

Then Kate contributed:

>In Spanish, the same language is called "espan~ol" in
>some countries and "castellano" in other countries. In
>Mexico the Spanish language is called "espan~ol"; in
>Argentina the Spanish language is called "castellano".
>The difference here is a regional one, not a question
>of correct or incorrect, standard or substandard.

Fairly clearly, the many Argentines prefer to identify themselves as
speaking castellano. although espan~ol is now correct according to the
Spanish Royal Academy. After all, Argentina is a sovereign nation that
seceded from Spain years ago, and the Argentines may not pay that much
attention to the Royal Academy or even its Argentine counterpart, which
undoubtably excludes lunfardo words. It does strike me a bit strange,
however, to reject first-person observations that Nancy offered about what
Argentines call the Spanish language on the basis of what a Spainard
living in Japan has to say. Japan is not the center of all knowledge.
When it comes to the Spanish language and TANGO, Japan is outpost.

With best wishes for all,
Steve

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:04:52 -0800
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Castilian vs.Spanish

Sergio,
Thank you for your post, very informative.

It brings memories of all those years that I studied Spanish while in
school in Costa Rica.

I've been having very interesting conversations with Alberto (great
guy), he send me a great article from a magazine in Cordoba, see the
post below.

Abrazos

Carlos Rojas



Fuente: Revista Hortencia Nº235 Octubre de 1988 (La página de
Cognigni).

Autor: A. Cognigni

Chaveta atendía su kiosco de praline cercano al área cuando llego su
amigo:

-Chavetón capitalista! Veo que hai iniciado tus actividades
industriales en esta matina gris como esperanza de arquero al que se le
han mandao los back.

-Dejad que los niños vengan al praliné.

-Y cómo anda la empresa?

-He vendido tres bolsita y he manyao siete.

-Tái en défici.

-Sin contá las doce que regalé a tu sorela.

-Anduvo por estos lados la pirula?

-Esato; y quedé como el flaco Zapata que le dicen "El submarino.....".

-Por que?

-Choco con una mina y se hundió.

-E´ que a vó, Chavetita enamorao, un día destos te van a sacá los diente
sin que abrai la bocamanga. Ya tí´í dicho que mi hermanita é una mujer
suela.

-Cómo decí eso de la mujer que te dió el ser!!

-Toi hablando de mi sorela, pirinolo loco; no de mi viejarda; y toy
diciendo lo que debo tá diciendo!. La Pirula é una mujer suela porque
pá ablandala tení que mojala, y mojala bien. Entendé, Chavetita
complicado; los argentinos queremos mango, porque los mango son la
verdá...!

-Y qué me decí del de la zurda!?... Lo que tai diciendo no tiene
cartelito.

-Vó siempre entendé torcido como triciclo de gordo. La pirula tiene la
pureza del puré. De lo que yo te toy hablando, en ramo generale, é de la
realidá de la vida; o acaso vó tai creyendo que el clericó se hace con
aceitunas....?

-Mírá Negrazón impenitente! Yo te conozco al pelésimo, y cuando vó
hablai como hablai, é porque te tai metiendo en camisa de ocho hermano y
entonce te poné esquivador como perro de avenida. Dale nomá; criá
pescado y te van a sacá los ojigins! Si pensarai un intantix que el
cuervo por la boca muere y que lo último que se pierde é la gayina que
cácarea y .....!

-Paráa!! Pará Chavetón loco! Pará el trencito que los manises se te han
quemao! Tai confundido como gayo entre los pato. Diande sacaste todueso?


-Son franela.

-Refrane.

-Esato. Sabía decilos a la tía agüela de un vecino que no hablaba bien
el idioma porque era chueca.

-Y eso que tiene que vé?

-Era chueca en la parola.

-Ahhh... no dominaba el inglé como neus.

-Yes.

-Tequiris! boy; ya me voy para Amboy.

- A mi el inglé me duele cuando corro mucho rajándole a los inspetore.

-No te dejan ladrarte el porvení.

-Justex. Vó laburai y laburai; querí hacé patria pero la patria te
I´hacen hacé a patacón y a todo raje . Mirálo si nó al negro Cara é
Manga de Cajero; trajo la novedá al área, y me lo tuvieron de aquí
parayá como aprendiz de mozo. No lo dejaban tranquilo; señalao como
timbre de usurero y perseguido más que a sapo en cancha é golf.

-Y que vendía el Manga?

-Taba siempre bien parao como obra de vialidá, ofreciendo escupidera con
calcomanía.

-Eso nu é novedá.

-Cómo que no. Si vó era hincha de Taiere te daba una de Belgrano y
viscera verso. Entendí comueralacosa..?

-A buen entendedor no se le juna los dintele. Eran escupideras listas
pa´la agresión.

-Esato. Por eso te digo loquetedigo. Negrazón maledetto. Yo creo en el
laburo honrao, como hacía el Cara é Manga y como lo hacía mi viejo. Cómo
sería de honrao mi viejazo, que una vé encontró unos zapatito que un
pibe del barrio había dejao en la puerta pa´ un sei de enero, y
recordando que yo jamá había pasao de los champione, me los hizo usá y
después los volvió a poné en el mismo umbral. Desto hace muchos años.

-Vos ibai con él cuando los junó...'

-No. Yo taba en las casa. Los devolvío seite meses despué.

-Problemardo de conciencia.!!

Y de media suela y taco.