4721 Chicken Little
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:51:00 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Janis I do not want to disagree with you publicly, but I too live here,
and I am out quite a bit in the milongas, especially now that almost all
my English students are on vacation. I think sounding the bell that
"tango nuevo is taking over" is a little bit like Chicken Little yelling
the sky is falling.
First of all complaining about young dancers moving their hips and
shoulders. So do the old ones. So do the not so young ones. So do the
not so old ones. This is not a new thing. It is an old thing. It is
called bad posture, bad habits. Especially if they came from salsa. If
you don't have a good teacher to correct this, then you continue dancing
this way. I came to tango from salsa. It took me over a year to break
what I call the "salsa hip."
Today when Fernando and I were teaching a student from Canada she moved
her hips and shoulders. It was how she learned to dance in Canada. She
knew it wasn't right when she came here. In our lesson with her we
concentrated on her posture and axis. Where to put her weight. It was
the first time anyone had "correctly" addressed these issues with her.
She and a few of our other students noticed and have commented to us how
many women dance here with their butt sticking out. Another form of bad
posture. I suppose if you didn't know better as one of my students
didn't, you would think this is how they dance in Buenos Aires.
As for the plethora of tango nuevo - it makes money with the
foreigners. Several teachers who were not such great teachers or
dancers and a very small few who were/are have started to teach nuevo.
Big deal. There are still only 5 or 6 practicas for tango nuevo and the
majority draw is foreigners. Who cares? I certainly don't. I continue
to dance my salon style tango. There are plenty of men who dance it and
plenty more people who want to learn.
When I danced salsa I learned to dance on the "1". Shortly before I
started tango dancing on the "2" started to happen. I saw a
demonstration and thought it was really cool. I tried a few classes and
realized that I was going to have to completely learn to dance salsa all
over again. After 12 years of dancing on the "1" I decided it would be
more fun to learn a completely new dance. For me that was tango. (ah
yes, and the rest is history)
Salsa on the "2" became a really hot thing. Now years later, you still
have lots of people who dance on the "1" and people who dance on the
"2". There never was this sort of mass hysteria that the "2" was taking
over the world. "2" dancers never looked their nose down at people
dancing on the "1". You danced one of the other or both. Yes, Yes, I
know tango has this "history." But so what? In the end, it is just a
dance. Why can't people just remember this and enjoy it?
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:04:08 -1200
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
To: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Deby wrote:>
> Salsa on the "2" became a really hot thing.
Salsa begins on "1" and Mambo begins on "2". The figures are
the same but to me, Salsa and Mambo don't sound the same.
Michael
Washington, DC
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:21:25 -0800 (PST)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
To: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Cc: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
Tito Puente says mambo is the music and salsa is the
dance. I guess he ought to know.
--- Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:
> Deby wrote:>
> > Salsa on the "2" became a really hot thing.
>
> Salsa begins on "1" and Mambo begins on "2". The
> figures are
> the same but to me, Salsa and Mambo don't sound the
> same.
>
> Michael
> Washington, DC
>
> I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
>
<<Rito es la danza en tu vida
y el tango que tu amas
te quema en su llama>>
de: Bailarina de tango
por: Horacio Sanguinetti
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(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:15:13 -0700
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
Hola Womans:
I will take a neutral place in this conversation.
You want to learn how to move your hips and butts? Well then, if you can get
past what they is doin' O' what they is wearin' then you might want to watch
any fashion show with runway models.
Any women's see how they is walkin', then ye may unnerstnd's sumthin'
Zorrito~
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 1:51 PM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
Janis I do not want to disagree with you publicly, but I too live here,
and I am out quite a bit in the milongas, especially now that almost all
my English students are on vacation. I think sounding the bell that
"tango nuevo is taking over" is a little bit like Chicken Little yelling
the sky is falling.
First of all complaining about young dancers moving their hips and
shoulders. So do the old ones. So do the not so young ones. So do the
not so old ones. This is not a new thing. It is an old thing. It is
called bad posture, bad habits. Especially if they came from salsa. If
you don't have a good teacher to correct this, then you continue dancing
this way. I came to tango from salsa. It took me over a year to break
what I call the "salsa hip."
Today when Fernando and I were teaching a student from Canada she moved
her hips and shoulders. It was how she learned to dance in Canada. She
knew it wasn't right when she came here. In our lesson with her we
concentrated on her posture and axis. Where to put her weight. It was
the first time anyone had "correctly" addressed these issues with her.
She and a few of our other students noticed and have commented to us how
many women dance here with their butt sticking out. Another form of bad
posture. I suppose if you didn't know better as one of my students
didn't, you would think this is how they dance in Buenos Aires.
As for the plethora of tango nuevo - it makes money with the
foreigners. Several teachers who were not such great teachers or
dancers and a very small few who were/are have started to teach nuevo.
Big deal. There are still only 5 or 6 practicas for tango nuevo and the
majority draw is foreigners. Who cares? I certainly don't. I continue
to dance my salon style tango. There are plenty of men who dance it and
plenty more people who want to learn.
When I danced salsa I learned to dance on the "1". Shortly before I
started tango dancing on the "2" started to happen. I saw a
demonstration and thought it was really cool. I tried a few classes and
realized that I was going to have to completely learn to dance salsa all
over again. After 12 years of dancing on the "1" I decided it would be
more fun to learn a completely new dance. For me that was tango. (ah
yes, and the rest is history)
Salsa on the "2" became a really hot thing. Now years later, you still
have lots of people who dance on the "1" and people who dance on the
"2". There never was this sort of mass hysteria that the "2" was taking
over the world. "2" dancers never looked their nose down at people
dancing on the "1". You danced one of the other or both. Yes, Yes, I
know tango has this "history." But so what? In the end, it is just a
dance. Why can't people just remember this and enjoy it?
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:27:38 -0500
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
To: tango-l@mit.edu
"Hola Womans:
I will take a neutral place in this conversation.
You want to learn how to move your hips and butts? Well then, if you can get
past what they is doin' O' what they is wearin' then you might want to watch
any fashion show with runway models.
Any women's see how they is walkin', then ye may unnerstnd's sumthin'
Zorrito~"
David, so your point is .....???? I have no idea what you're talking about.
Buy, Load, Play. The new Sympatico / MSN Music Store works seamlessly with
Windows Media Player. Just Click PLAY.
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:02:38 -0700
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
Caroline, what I am saying is to stop trying to move ones butt like what is
described in the post I replied to.
This happens in the way one walks and the moving butt is part of what
happens because... Well... The women are built and drawn that way. And have
been since before written history.
Stop trying to force ones butt to over do something and let ones butt do
it's job while one is simply walking.
Look at good runway models to see this.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 7:28 AM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
"Hola Womans:
I will take a neutral place in this conversation.
You want to learn how to move your hips and butts? Well then, if you can get
past what they is doin' O' what they is wearin' then you might want to watch
any fashion show with runway models.
Any women's see how they is walkin', then ye may unnerstnd's sumthin'
Zorrito~"
David, so your point is .....???? I have no idea what you're talking about.
Buy, Load, Play. The new Sympatico / MSN Music Store works seamlessly with
Windows Media Player. Just Click PLAY.
https://musicstore.sympatico.msn.ca/content/viewer.aspx?cid=SMS_Sept192006
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:23:31 -0500
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Ok, I understand you now....I think.
Runway models sashay because it's considered feminine and sexy to do so.
Maybe that's the same reason some women dance that way too.
I had a teacher tell me that I tend to stick my hips out to the side when I
do giros and that I stick my butt out when doing salidas. I wasn't even
aware I was doing that until he pointed it out.
It was a funny coincidence that you mention runway models because my older
sister was a model and a runway teacher for a long time and she was the one
who forced me to change from walking like a tomboy to walking like a woman.
She was embarrassed to be seen with me in public until I changed to a more
feminine walk. My high school yearbooks was filled with compliments about my
walk from the guys. One cannot help but feel encouraged to keep on walking
that way given the positive feedback from both girls and guys.
But because in tango, that is considered improper, I am making the effort to
change a habit that was ingrained into my consciousness for 25 years. It
hasn't been easy but I'm trying. Good thing I have a teacher who gives me a
hard time whenever I move my hips - that helps a great deal.
Anyways, the point is, I am sure many women who move their hips in tango are
unaware they are doing so. And others who are aware are doing it because
they feel it's feminine to do so.
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:16:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Miguel Canals <elpibemc1961@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little (with a limp)
To: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>, Tango L list
--- David Hodgson wrote:
> Hola Womans:
> I will take a neutral place in this conversation.
> You want to learn how to move your hips and butts?
> Well then, .....
No need to "learn" to move your hips when you walk (or
dance.
Cut 1/8 to 1/4 inch off ONE of your high heel shoes,
and you will be swaying like the models on the runway.
Just another trick of the fashion trade. ;-)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:20:15 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
To: "Deby Novitz" <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<4db2592c0701261020s239dbe4mc01277abe687a803@mail.gmail.com>
On 1/25/07, Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com> wrote:
> Janis I do not want to disagree with you publicly, but I too live here,
> and I am out quite a bit in the milongas
Deby, Janis did say "in the festivals and classes", not the milongas.
It sounds pretty much like the situtation here in Paris, where (stuff
sold as) nuevo is all over the dance schools but rarely seen in the
milongas.
One nuevo pupil told me she and her friends don't like milongas
anyway. This less of a problem to their tango life than one might
think, since in Paris classes/practicas outnumber milongas but a large
margin.
A tango life entirely in dance schools... Life Jim, but not as we know it! ;)
Chris
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:21:23 -0800 (PST)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
To: David Hodgson <DHodgson@tangolabyrinth.com>, Tango L list
Oh, but, David, I have a friend who used to dance professionally in musicals. She was often
required to affect the sexy looking, exaggerated hip movement like those runway models
(think "Sweet Charity"). It got to the point that she could barely walk due to problems with
her back. She had to quit dancing, So, the exaggerated hip movement is not very kind to the
human body. And, shall we say, not biomechanically correct.
While taking salsa lessons I learned that the hip motion we associate with that dance
hapens when you step a certain way. Your pelvis drops automatically. Women in the class
asked if they weren't supposed to be wiggling their hips. The answer was no. Your hips will
move correctly if you step correctly.
Just another example of someone observing something, and successfully recreating the
look of the thing, rather than the essence of it.
Never Miss an Email
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:27:34 -0500
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
To: tango-l@mit.edu
"Deby, Janis did say "in the festivals and classes", not the milongas."
Actually Chris
Janis wrote this: "It's the latest fashion in the milongas among the younger
dancers who
purposely swing their butts and move their shoulders up and down. It has
nothing to do with tango."
so one cannot help but presume she is referring to milongas as wel as
classes and festivals.
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:29:02 -0500
From: Robin Tara <rtara@maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
To: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>, David Hodgson
Gee, you guys sure have a lot to say about women's hip movements. What about
your own hips??
> From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:21:23 -0800 (PST)
> To: David Hodgson <DHodgson@tangolabyrinth.com>, Tango L list
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
>
> Oh, but, David, I have a friend who used to dance professionally in musicals.
> She was often
> required to affect the sexy looking, exaggerated hip movement like those
> runway models
> (think "Sweet Charity"). It got to the point that she could barely walk due
> to problems with
> her back. She had to quit dancing, So, the exaggerated hip movement is not
> very kind to the
> human body. And, shall we say, not biomechanically correct.
> While taking salsa lessons I learned that the hip motion we associate with
> that dance
> hapens when you step a certain way. Your pelvis drops automatically. Women
> in the class
> asked if they weren't supposed to be wiggling their hips. The answer was no.
> Your hips will
> move correctly if you step correctly.
> Just another example of someone observing something, and successfully
> recreating the
> look of the thing, rather than the essence of it.
>
>
> Never Miss an Email
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:30:56 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
To: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
I don't want to debate what Janis said or meant. She is a friend. She
has her opinions I have mine. I was commenting more on tango nuevo
taking over and how women are dancing in the milongas. My comments
were a comment to this and nothing more.
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:12:37 -0500
From: Hector Pablo Pereyra <pablo@thezvimigdal.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Write less, have more sex, shake your hips and butts as much as you want
there and when you are done go and dance tango!!!
P.
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 20:34 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
"Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com> wrote
>> "Deby, Janis did say "in the festivals and classes", not the milongas."
>
> Actually Chris
>
> Janis wrote this: "It's the latest fashion in the milongas among the
> younger dancers who purposely swing their butts and move their shoulders
Actually Caroline, my comment re "nuevo is taking over" was to Deby's
comment re "nuevo is taking over" to Janis's comment re "nuevo is taking
over"...
"in the festivals and classes".
Nothing to do with the swinging butts and moving shoulders... in the
milongas.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* [Tango-L] Chicken Little
*From:* "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
*To:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:27:34 -0500
"Deby, Janis did say "in the festivals and classes", not the milongas."
Actually Chris
Janis wrote this: "It's the latest fashion in the milongas among the younger
dancers who
purposely swing their butts and move their shoulders up and down. It has
nothing to do with tango."
so one cannot help but presume she is referring to milongas as wel as
classes and festivals.
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live
Spaces. https://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:41:47 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
Caroline,
You might want to reconsider changing your walk admired by
the guys. I suspect your teacher's walk is influened a lot
by his/her chosen style rather than natural body mechanics,
though it would be bad if you're moving your hips
salsa-style. We've had to work a lot with people to loosen
their hips so that they can move fluidly. David and Tom
are correct in saying that the movement of the hips come
>from a correct walk.
Your other issues concerning posture during giros and
salidas is likely a common misunderstanding that the torso
drives the walk. It doesn't. It is the pelvis and legs
that drive the walk. The torso merely sits on top of the
pelvis.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, I understand you now....I think.
>
> Runway models sashay because it's considered feminine and
> sexy to do so.
> Maybe that's the same reason some women dance that way
> too.
>
> I had a teacher tell me that I tend to stick my hips out
> to the side when I
> do giros and that I stick my butt out when doing salidas.
> I wasn't even
> aware I was doing that until he pointed it out.
>
> It was a funny coincidence that you mention runway models
> because my older
> sister was a model and a runway teacher for a long time
> and she was the one
> who forced me to change from walking like a tomboy to
> walking like a woman.
> She was embarrassed to be seen with me in public until I
> changed to a more
> feminine walk. My high school yearbooks was filled with
> compliments about my
> walk from the guys. One cannot help but feel encouraged
> to keep on walking
> that way given the positive feedback from both girls and
> guys.
>
> But because in tango, that is considered improper, I am
> making the effort to
> change a habit that was ingrained into my consciousness
> for 25 years. It
> hasn't been easy but I'm trying. Good thing I have a
> teacher who gives me a
> hard time whenever I move my hips - that helps a great
> deal.
>
> Anyways, the point is, I am sure many women who move
> their hips in tango are
> unaware they are doing so. And others who are aware are
> doing it because
> they feel it's feminine to do so.
>
>
> Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list
> with Windows Live
> Spaces
>
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:58:20 -0500
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
To: tango-l@mit.edu
"You might want to reconsider changing your walk admired by
the guys. I suspect your teacher's walk is influened a lot
by his/her chosen style rather than natural body mechanics,
though it would be bad if you're moving your hips
salsa-style."
Hi Trini,
this is where I start to wonder who's right, who's wrong? My teacher does
classic tango, and as such, he also talks about moving from the pelvis and
legs such as you have.
I don't know, honestly I don't. I've been told so many different things from
different people, that sometimes I feel utterly lost as to whom I should
listen and pay heed.
But thanks for your suggestion though.
Caroline
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:29:59 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
Yes, Caroline, it can be confusing. But you'll eventually
find a tango that fits you. There's no one "right".
Sometimes, I find it informative to watch the way young
children play and move. Kids often do not have the muscle
inhibitions that adults do, so they move in a way that is
most natural to them. With no or relatively little
influence about what looks good or what is "right" or
little effect from past injuries. They simply "are".
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "You might want to reconsider changing your walk admired
> by
> the guys. I suspect your teacher's walk is influened a
> lot
> by his/her chosen style rather than natural body
> mechanics,
> though it would be bad if you're moving your hips
> salsa-style."
>
> Hi Trini,
>
> this is where I start to wonder who's right, who's wrong?
> My teacher does
> classic tango, and as such, he also talks about moving
> from the pelvis and
> legs such as you have.
>
> I don't know, honestly I don't. I've been told so many
> different things from
> different people, that sometimes I feel utterly lost as
> to whom I should
> listen and pay heed.
>
> But thanks for your suggestion though.
>
> Caroline
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:01:39 -0700
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
To: "'Robin Tara'" <rtara@maine.rr.com>, "Tango L list"
The point I was getting at is that the walk is (Ahem) the meat and bones of
dancing tango. The swaying hips are an accent to expression, attraction,
embellishments plus it can be sexy as hell or an absolutely a turnoff. When
one relies on the hip movements as the basis for their dance they really
lose the point.
As far as the performance example that was mentioned. It does not matter if
one is in a Broadway show, stripper or street walker. If someone in these
professions do not learn to move their hips, then they are more than likely
going to have one less asset to sell (one less asset, more chance of having
to eat mac and cheese dinners), and let's face it sex sells very well.
Robin why do the guys have lots to say.
1: We watch this
2: Most of the men on this list are attracted to the female of the species
and can appreciate what they do not have or can do.
3: Well... they are guys.
And the last thought, I have to say my hips move quite well...
Off to get ready for dance (because a Follow in my embrace is much more
interesting and pleasurable than talking over the binary of email).
Zorrito
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Tara [mailto:rtara@maine.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 11:29 AM
To: steve pastor; David Hodgson; Tango L list
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
Gee, you guys sure have a lot to say about women's hip movements. What about
your own hips??
> From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:21:23 -0800 (PST)
> To: David Hodgson <DHodgson@tangolabyrinth.com>, Tango L list
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicken Little
>
> Oh, but, David, I have a friend who used to dance professionally in
musicals.
> She was often
> required to affect the sexy looking, exaggerated hip movement like those
> runway models
> (think "Sweet Charity"). It got to the point that she could barely walk
due
> to problems with
> her back. She had to quit dancing, So, the exaggerated hip movement is
not
> very kind to the
> human body. And, shall we say, not biomechanically correct.
> While taking salsa lessons I learned that the hip motion we associate
with
> that dance
> hapens when you step a certain way. Your pelvis drops automatically.
Women
> in the class
> asked if they weren't supposed to be wiggling their hips. The answer was
no.
> Your hips will
> move correctly if you step correctly.
> Just another example of someone observing something, and successfully
> recreating the
> look of the thing, rather than the essence of it.
>
>
> Never Miss an Email
