5011 Classic alternative?
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:32:04 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Classic alternative?
I do like to dance tango to good music other than tango.
Unfortunately, this music is not the music played mostly at alternative
milongas.
You said "alternative music" is simplistic. The problem is that so called
"alternative music" for tango does not have style. It is an eclectic mix. It
is a byproduct of pop-music, it is "soap" music. Much of it functions well
creating a good mood, but as the whole it lucks many thing. It is visible
that many authors are trying to lift their music higher in musical
qualities, but since it still stays the part of pop-music these efforts are
bound to fail.
Music at alternative milongas is assembled to satisfy dancing styles of Neo
Tango dancers. Like Homer. It supposed to be slooooww. Since this style of
dancing is very young and just developing, there is no matching musical
tradition, musical trend. So they just pick up pieces here and there which
are more suitable for their dancing.
The best "Non-Tango Tango" ( that is how I prefer to call it) are swing,
foxtrot, salsa, rumba, samba, indian music, anything which is the part of
established musical and dancing tradition. I have found that Disco style
music is great for non-tango too. Especially for those who like ( and are
able to dance) rhythmic driving style of tango - orillero. I have danced to
Cajun music - they watched in amusement asking what we are doing - they
liked it.
It is difficult to preserve dancing skills from generation to generation.
Music is much easier to preserve. That is why all this music: swing, samba,
and so on is easy to dance the right dance to: it is preserving style once
you start dancing to the music. If you are good, sooner or later you will
dance the right dance to it. Because dance is in our body, not in the minds
of teachers. There is no such thing for alternative tango. Alternative Tango
( Neo Tango - the name I prefer to call it, and now you understand why )
does not have matching music style yet. And that is the real problem for
them.
There is a problem with it located beyond musical qualities. Once ( in
Denver ) a DJ started to play a set of great old foxtrots. What could be
better for a milonga ! I invited one young lady. She said "Not to this music
!". I said "Why - it is so perfectly danceable, driving?". "I hate it!!!"
she said.
Igor Polk
PS. Can you tell me why did she say so? I am interested to know, I am an
immigrant: this is beyond my understanding yet.
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:01:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Classic alternative?
Hi Lucia,
Perhaps I had chosen the wrong type of swing music. Do you have a favorite piece?
Trini
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Friday, July 6, 2007 1:10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Classic alternative?
Trini,
I close-tango to swing whenever/wherever I hear it, with immense pleasure...
Lucia
"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> escribi?:
Hi all,
First, if you don't like alternative music for tango, please use your delete key. This thread is not for you.
I've decided I need to work on convincing people here to continue studying traditional music. Although some alternative music (non-Piazzolla) is fun, most of it is not terribly deep or complex. So some folks think they are being musical and they really aren't. I thought one approach would be to point out the enduring quality of the great orchestras that keeps dancers challenged whereas most alternative tangos today only have a lifespan of about 2-3 years, by my estimation. Piazzolla, of course, is the exception. Can anyone think of any alternative tango that we might actually be dancing to in 30 years? I can't.
Trini de Pittsburgh
P.S. I deejayed a milonga last night and decided to play some swing music since it was the Fourth. Even though we had swing dancers, to my surprise, people were still trying to tango to it. A few years ago, everyone would have known that it was swing.
The fish are biting.
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Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 11:42:41 +0930
From: "Pat Petronio" <petronio@adam.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Classic alternative?
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Hi there,
I totally agree with Trini's assessment of the longevity of most alternative
tangos, and also believe that there is a place for some alternative tangos
and music at milongas - for lots of reasons which have been discussed
before.
Having said that, I too, feel that those of us who deejay or teach the
dance, play an important role in educating our fellow dancers to develop a
better understanding & appreciation of the traditional music which has made
this dance endure and become so popular internationally. In my opinion, this
educative role must include fostering the skills which enable dancers to
respond sensitively to the many possibilities offered by those great tango
orchestras. We all know it's a long process, but the journey can be
enjoyable and deeply satisfying.
Have a good weekend.
Pat
Adelaide, South Australia.
>
>
>
> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 14:10:27 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Classic alternative?
>
> Hi all,
>
> First, if you don't like alternative music for tango, please use your
> delete key. This thread is not for you.
>
> I've decided I need to work on convincing people here to continue studying
> traditional music. Although some alternative music (non-Piazzolla) is
> fun, most of it is not terribly deep or complex. So some folks think they
> are being musical and they really aren't. I thought one approach would be
> to point out the enduring quality of the great orchestras that keeps
> dancers challenged whereas most alternative tangos today only have a
> lifespan of about 2-3 years, by my estimation. Piazzolla, of course, is
> the exception. Can anyone think of any alternative tango that we might
> actually be dancing to in 30 years? I can't.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
> P.S. I deejayed a milonga last night and decided to play some swing music
> since it was the Fourth. Even though we had swing dancers, to my
> surprise, people were still trying to tango to it. A few years ago,
> everyone would have known that it was swing.
>
>
>
> The fish are biting.
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 22:45:10 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Classic alternative?
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cff24c340707062045g16c115ben1992d03f5adf9e52@mail.gmail.com>
About 2-3 years ago I experimented with playing non-traditional music for
milongas. I define 'non-traditional' as anything other than 'traditional'
tango for dancing from the 30s, 40s, and early 50s. The term 'alternative',
I believe, is generally applied to non-tango music used for dancing tango,
and I did not use any of that because, as someone with a history of ballroom
dancing, I feel the rhythm of these 'alternative' songs fit other dances
such as foxtrot, rumba, samba, etc. However, an 'alternative' milonga goes
beyond 'alternative' music.
Outside the traditional tango music, there is some Pugliese from the 70s
(Desde el Alma, A Evaristo Carriego) that could be considered 'classic' in
that they have become part of the repertoire of a traditional DJ such that
they can even be heard on rare occasions in Buenos Aires milongas.
Contemporary orchestras such as Color Tango (Pugliese), Gente de Tango (Di
Sarli), Los Reyes del Tango (D'arienzo), and San Souci (Calo) can provide
renditions of classic tangos that are close to classic tango and thus they
don't really classify as 'non-traditional', although they may provide a nice
change of pace. There are some other contemporary orchestras such as Trio
Garufa (US) and Los Cosos de al Lao (Argentina) that provide some danceable
music, usually when doing covers of classic tangos, albeit with their own
style and this may by some guidelines cross over the line into
non-traditional. But I don't think that's what you're referring to.
Certainly Horacio Salgan added some novel interpretations to classic tangos
with jazz influences. I find some tangos and valses by Quinteto Real (e.g.,
A la gran mun~eca, El pollo Ricardo, Gran Hotel Victoria, Romance de barrio,
Palomita blanca) to be quite danceable, although I've also heard complaints
that some people find this music difficult to dance to. I would consider
Salgan 'non-traditional' and having the complexity to make it interesting
enough to keep within a DJ's repertoire of milonga music
Piazzolla has very few tangos that maintain a constant rhythm at a danceable
tempo, yet those few that exist (e.g., Libertango, Zum, Preparense,
Tanguedia I & III) can make a nice contrast in a milonga setting and, of
course, do not cease to be interesting.
Pablo Aslan has created an interesting artistic fusion of tango and jazz,
but very little of it maintains a constant rhythm for dancing.
El Arranque is creating wonderfully new tango music and one may find a few
that are suitable for dancing, but this is not their primary objective.
I do like the Symphonic Tango CD where Pablo Ziegler's quintet plays with a
symphonic orchestra, but only Caminito, El Choclo, and La Cumparsita are
suitable for dancing, although some may find even these challenging.
Tango electronico is the modern genre used most frequently at milongas in
the US. I find almost none of this music inspiring for dancing tango.
However, Otros Aires has some good milongas (Milonga sentimental, Amore que
se baila) that maintain an authentic milonga rhythm. Electrocutango has a
good milonga (Retrolonga) and a good tango (Felino); beyond that is
stretching a bit to call something tango. Carla Pugliese mixes a bit of
electronica without completely deserting traditional tango, and has several
recorded tangos with electronic overlay suitable for dancing (e.g., La vida
y la tempestad, Ostinato, La cumparsita), a mix of grandfather Osvaldo's
style with electronica, but she also has recorded some more traditional
tangos (Gallo ciego, Pata ancha, Pavadita) lacking electronic elements, as
well as some Piazzolla compositions (e.g., Obiivion). In my opinion, Carla
Pugliese represents the only contemporary bridge between the past and the
future of danceable tango, i.e., adding electronic elements that does not
destroy the rhythm and felling of tango. The problem with most 'tango
electronico' (Gotan Project, Carlos Libedisky, Jaime Wilensky, Tanghetto,
Bajo Fondo tango Club, etc.) is that either there is no tango rhythm, or
whatever tango rhythm exists is overwhelmed by a pounding elctronic bass
drum. Tango electronico basically consists of adding tango elements
(sometimes only a bandoneon) to a disco rhythm. It is suitable to dance
hustle and night club 2-step to some tango electronico because it has the
appropriate rhythm. Rarely does dancing tango fit the rhythm well. It just
feels awkward.
The main reasons that as a DJ I stopped using non-traditional tango are that
some dancers complained the music was difficult to connect to, whereas
others used the energy of some of these modern compositions to bring out
their exhibition tango to the fullest extent. Navigational suffered and, of
course, connection with the music evaporated. So I stopped. i didn't want to
facilitate that.
So, to answer your question, Trini, it one wants to go beyond the realm of
traditional tango to find music suitable for dancing tango I would suggest
Salgan, Piazzolla, some Otros Aires, and Carla Pugliese. if they are still
played at milongas 30 years from now, I'll dance to them.
Ron
On 7/5/07, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com > wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> First, if you don't like alternative music for tango, please use your
> delete key. This thread is not for you.
>
> I've decided I need to work on convincing people here to continue studying
> traditional music. Although some alternative music (non-Piazzolla) is fun,
> most of it is not terribly deep or complex. So some folks think they are
> being musical and they really aren't. I thought one approach would be to
> point out the enduring quality of the great orchestras that keeps dancers
> challenged whereas most alternative tangos today only have a lifespan of
> about 2-3 years, by my estimation. Piazzolla, of course, is the
> exception. Can anyone think of any alternative tango that we might actually
> be dancing to in 30 years? I can't.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
> P.S. I deejayed a milonga last night and decided to play some swing music
> since it was the Fourth. Even though we had swing dancers, to my surprise,
> people were still trying to tango to it. A few years ago, everyone would
> have known that it was swing.
>
>
>
>
> The fish are biting.
>
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 21:16:22 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Classic alternative?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600707062116y23da9fl62972ad603b4ca68@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/6/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
[...]
> There is a problem with it located beyond musical qualities. Once ( in
> Denver ) a DJ started to play a set of great old foxtrots. What could be
> better for a milonga ! I invited one young lady. She said "Not to this music
> !". I said "Why - it is so perfectly danceable, driving?". "I hate it!!!"
> she said.
>
> Igor Polk
> PS. Can you tell me why did she say so? I am interested to know, I am an
> immigrant: this is beyond my understanding yet.
Yes. She did not hate the music. She just hated the idea of dancing
tango (*) steps to something that is not tango (*). I don't think
understanding this has anything to do with being an immigrant or not.
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
(*) in this context 'tango' encompasses the tango trinity of dances
and musical forms - tango, vals, and milonga.
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 01:02:13 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Classic alternative?
To: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>, "Tango-L"
<tango-l@mit.edu>
In Minneapolis, there are some tangueros with serious ballroom
dancing backgrounds. One couple in particular automatically
dances swing, rumba, cha-cha, foxtrot or whatever else seems
appropriate to them to a lot of alternative music. I love it
when they do that, because if the DJ wanted them to dance tango
steps to non-traditional music, he shouldn't have asked dancers
to ram a square peg into a round hole.
As a DJ, I could tell stories about some requests I get for
alternative music, but I think I'll pass on that ... I'm trying
to be a good boy. ;)
Christopher
PS. I love what Andres Amarillo posted many months back: "Tango
*is* alternative". It's become my stock answer when I'm not in
the mood to accommodate such requests.
On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 21:16:22 -0700, "Konstantin Zahariev"
<anfractuoso@gmail.com> said:
> On 7/6/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> [...]
> > There is a problem with it located beyond musical qualities. Once ( in
> > Denver ) a DJ started to play a set of great old foxtrots. What could be
> > better for a milonga ! I invited one young lady. She said "Not to this music
> > !". I said "Why - it is so perfectly danceable, driving?". "I hate it!!!"
> > she said.
> >
> > Igor Polk
> > PS. Can you tell me why did she say so? I am interested to know, I am an
> > immigrant: this is beyond my understanding yet.
>
>
> Yes. She did not hate the music. She just hated the idea of dancing
> tango (*) steps to something that is not tango (*). I don't think
> understanding this has anything to do with being an immigrant or not.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Konstantin
> Victoria, Canada
>
> (*) in this context 'tango' encompasses the tango trinity of dances
> and musical forms - tango, vals, and milonga.
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 02:28:35 -0400
From: lgmoseley@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] Classic alternative
To: tango-l@mit.edu
My impression is that people who can hear and dance to the steady rhythms of the classic tangos (up to and including Pugliese and those who adopted the same musical principles) can also dance to more modern pieces. That applies whether the more modern pieces are promoted as Tango or whether they are just popular music to which some people attempt to dance Tango.
However, the reverse is not true. People who regularly dance to the more modern pieces cannot always dance to the classics (although obviously some can).
I think that the difference lies in two realms. The first is that with the classics one has to dance to the rhythm that the orchestra is using. For the alternative pieces, one has, as it were, a rhythm in one's head and one imposes that rhythm on the dance. If one relies on that internal rhythm, it is difficult to transfer the skill to a rhythm which is imposed externally.
The other difference is in the walk - whether one walks on the ball of the foot first or on the heel first. The ball-first dancers (male or female) have rather more time then do the heel-first ones. That? means that the men have a little more time to change direction, swivel, pause or whatever, and ladies have a little more time to react to such changes.
With both classic and alternative music the ball-first dancers have no problems. However, the heel-first dancers have a slight time delay. Rather than their weight transfer taking place on the beat, it arrives slightly late. That, as far as I can see, is because their heel lands on the beat, but the weight has not been fully transferred. There is then a slight delay for the weight to be transferred to the ball. That is what appears to account for the fact that they always seem to be slightly out of time with the music. As usual, irrespective of the direction in which you are moving, the heel acts as a brake.
Of course, you can only be out of time with the music when the music actually has a time! When there is no obvious time, one can continue to move as one wishes - it's just that one is not dancing to the music. Once one has mastered the ball-first, weight-forward way of moving, one can then dance to any? music - old or new.
This phenomenon, of the heel-first dancers being slightly behind the music, first hit me when watching people dancing milonga.
Brazos
Laurie (Laurence)
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Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 00:23:32 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Classic alternative? - Clarification of the
"foxtrot" story
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Sorry, it might be out of order, but, the list is not that formal, so I feel
I can give some clarification, thank you, Konstantin for pointing it out.
It was an alternative milonga. She was dancing to electronic mixes before.
The story was: "Once ( in Denver ) a DJ started to play a set of great old
foxtrots. What could be better for a milonga ! I invited one young lady. She
said "Not to this music !". I said "Why - it is so perfectly danceable,
driving?". "I hate it!!!" she said."
And my question was "Why did she said so?"
Igor.
PS. Why one would want to dance tango steps to foxtrot? Using the level of
artistry obtained in tango a tango dancer can easily invent moves suitable
for such simple ( and pleasant ) dance like foxtrot. Besides, have you tried
to dance milonga to foxtrots of 30s? Try it !
I have met one gentlemen of about 90 years old. I asked him what did he do
when he was young. He was at that time in Ireland. He answered: "I went
dancing 5 nights a week. We danced mostly tango and foxtrot". He was about
20 at that time.
Konstantin wrote:
Yes. She did not hate the music. She just hated the idea of dancing
tango (*) steps to something that is not tango (*).
