4231 Close all the time vs all ranges debate ==> BS
Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 02:08:08 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Close all the time vs all ranges debate ==> BS
Sergio,
It's really pretty simple. No well regarded teacher of
close embrace says that close is the only acceptable
form of social tango, not even Mr. Close Embrace himself,
Robert Hauk. In fact, what he in fact says is that in
Buenos Aires, many old milongueros who came up in the
40's and 50's have mastered several styles, therefore
any debate about "authentic tango" in terms of style
is altogether senseless.
Again, anyone one claiming close-embrace-all-the-time
folk dislike other styles is full of crap. What we
refuse to tolerate is bad tango.
I'm not much given to absolute statements, but for me
the First Law of Tango is "Thou shalt connect"; every
tango disease at the individual or community level can
be diagnosed as a failure to connect at one level or
another.
I believe this debate is really about authentic tango
in terms of connection or the lack thereof. Close
embrace, comes with more connection right out of the
box. This makes it far more accessible to persons
of ordinary physical talent. My personal experience
tells me so, and quite a few others will agree: people
who begin as close embrace dancers have earlier and
more profound chances to experience deep states of
connection.
This is not a knock on open embrace. There isn't one
close-embrace-all-the-time person who doesn't admire
the accomplishment of great open frame salon dancers,
who isn't absolutely ravished and blown away by the
great ones, either on stage or among us on the social
floor: profound connection at 6 or 8 inches is a
beautiful thing to see.
By the same token, people going the open embrace route
and giving it a token effort, show a commitment to bad
tango via disconnection, and all the vices that follow.
I'm quite OK with raw beginners that can't dance, but
if you've danced in open frame for several years and
still don't have beginner level skills like stepping
on the beat, get the wax out of your ears: the voice
of God is telling you to get lots more practice and
private lessons. In the meantime, stop running into
us. And please, our eyeballs need a rest from crappy
ganchos, dips, lead-by-yank and other obscene sights.
In other words, our cry is, "do it right or do something
else."
Christopher
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 01:44:04 -0600
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@Tango777.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Close all the time vs all ranges debate ==> BS
Well, I was talking with someone off list about tango and mentioned to them
"In the way I have seen you dance it seems a nice social style of dance".
The person I was talking with suggested don't put that out to the list.
So here I am holding spoon and putting this out to some potential badgers.
Well, because I am drawn that way.
Hence, I poke badgers with spoons.
Yo, Yo, Yo..
David~
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:08 AM
To: Tango-L
Subject: [Tango-L] Close all the time vs all ranges debate ==> BS
Sergio,
It's really pretty simple. No well regarded teacher of
close embrace says that close is the only acceptable
form of social tango, not even Mr. Close Embrace himself,
Robert Hauk. In fact, what he in fact says is that in
Buenos Aires, many old milongueros who came up in the
40's and 50's have mastered several styles, therefore
any debate about "authentic tango" in terms of style
is altogether senseless.
Again, anyone one claiming close-embrace-all-the-time
folk dislike other styles is full of crap. What we
refuse to tolerate is bad tango.
I'm not much given to absolute statements, but for me
the First Law of Tango is "Thou shalt connect"; every
tango disease at the individual or community level can
be diagnosed as a failure to connect at one level or
another.
I believe this debate is really about authentic tango
in terms of connection or the lack thereof. Close
embrace, comes with more connection right out of the
box. This makes it far more accessible to persons
of ordinary physical talent. My personal experience
tells me so, and quite a few others will agree: people
who begin as close embrace dancers have earlier and
more profound chances to experience deep states of
connection.
This is not a knock on open embrace. There isn't one
close-embrace-all-the-time person who doesn't admire
the accomplishment of great open frame salon dancers,
who isn't absolutely ravished and blown away by the
great ones, either on stage or among us on the social
floor: profound connection at 6 or 8 inches is a
beautiful thing to see.
By the same token, people going the open embrace route
and giving it a token effort, show a commitment to bad
tango via disconnection, and all the vices that follow.
I'm quite OK with raw beginners that can't dance, but
if you've danced in open frame for several years and
still don't have beginner level skills like stepping
on the beat, get the wax out of your ears: the voice
of God is telling you to get lots more practice and
private lessons. In the meantime, stop running into
us. And please, our eyeballs need a rest from crappy
ganchos, dips, lead-by-yank and other obscene sights.
In other words, our cry is, "do it right or do something
else."
Christopher
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 01:29:38 -0700
From: Aurora Nemirow <anemirow@pdx.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Close all the time vs all ranges debate
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I take a class at my university for beginning tango. This is my
second term, and I wanted to share a few observations and ask your
thoughts:
Last term was my first ever tango class and my teacher began with
open embrace. We learned more figures and even got to touch on rad
things like ganchos and boleos. Around the 8th week of class, we
began doing close embrace. The leads in class found it very difficult
(vocally! ;) to do any of the figures they had learned in open, in
close. I think starting in open allowed a bit of "cheating" with
posture, use of arms (as in shoving-me-around-the-floor-with-arms use
of arms), and what my teacher calls duck-walking (cartoon cowboy
walks for those who have not had the pleasure).
This term, we've begun with close embrace. Personally, I'm thrilled
because my friends that continued from last term get to work on all
the things they know in close embrace. BUT, the learning curve is so
different! It seems to take longer for the brand new dancers to
understand the connection in close embrace (and every figure is first
taught in close), but once they get it, they can dance it in open.
One of the leads even mentioned to me that he totally got how the
thing he was doing at the time (the cross maybe? I forget) could
easily be B.S.ed in open. But at our weekly practicas I've danced
with him in open a few times and he, as with all the leads new this
term, can lead it just fine. The thing about beginning with close
embrace is that we have spent more time working on getting the
connection that we have learned very few figures. Its definitely a
trade off.
This all leads me to think that perhaps close embrace is a good way
*to begin* teaching AT. Like Christopher said, it really forces the
dancers to understand what a good connection feels like. For those of
us that are just jumping into the dance, the idea of connection is so
foreign that, I believe, it may be more constructive to shove it
under our noses at first. Only once we understand what it is that is
being asked of us, we can back off and use arms, legs, earlobes for
connection. I know for myself that having begun in open and then
spent this whole term in close, I have a much stronger understanding
of my connection in any embrace.
To me this is similar to many things. For instance, few people could
take an integral without understanding the concept of a tangent line.
What do you think about this? I would love to hear stories about
other beginning classes, or your own experience beginning with one
type of embrace. And what you thought about another kind when you
branched out. Thanks a ton guys!
Aurora @ PDX
p.s. sorry about how long that was - didn't mean to write a novel! Whew!
p.p.s. Tine a while back you asked about people at other
universities? Me! Me! Portland State U. is simply brimming with new
tangueros. Can I hit you up for ideas and such?
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:51:58 -0500
From: "Michael Figart II" <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Close all the time vs all ranges debate
To: "'Aurora Nemirow'" <anemirow@pdx.edu>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Hello Aurora,
And welcome to the wonderful world of Argentine Tango. It really is
wonderful, please don't get a mistaken impression by viewing some of the
"animosity" on this list. I'm looking so forward to seeing all my
friends at the Memorial Day festival in Denver, I had a real blast at
Atlanta festival last month, etc, etc. If it wasn't for tango, my spare
time would probably still be limited to watching TV, playing with my
Labrador, and yardwork.
I'm of the personal opinion that Argentine Tango is best taught first as
a close-embrace dance (for reasons I won't go into here), but I do
believe that it's very possible to teach beginners in the open style
also, if done correctly. Both require stringent attention to developing
VERY basic skills, with much emphasis on connection, and leading mostly
with torso (actually I think we should lead and follow with every fiber
of our being, but the upper torso (read; chest) is the "communication
center" to transmit and receive).
A famous tango expression; "To learn Tango we must first learn to walk".
Teaching figures from the start is a classic way to get off on the wrong
foot. To start off right; Posture, embrace, connection. Axis, balance
(sometimes shared), center, weight, changing weight. Walking, walking
with the music, stopping, walking again. Walking and throwing a few
"quick-quicks". A few weeks of this and maybe time to throw in ocho
cortado to help keep people interested. Then cross-footed walking,
getting in and out of cross feet, cross-footed walking inside, then
outside, your partner. Then some back ochos. Technique, connection,
communication, technique, connection, communication, etc, etc.....You
get my drift.
Any teacher who teaches ganchos inside of 8 wks should be drawn and
quartered, in my opinion, whether teaching open or close.
Forget the figures, concentrate on feeling comfortable in the
frame/embrace, developing the technique, teaching your body how to move
naturally, and also naturally with another body, in this new wonderful
"walk".
Look for teachers who just ooze "natural" in their movements, who seem
to have the music in their hearts, who concentrate on the communication
aspects, and who tell the leaders that their primary goal is to make
their followers happy and secure, and to learn how to interpret the
beautiful music.
Save the figures for later, they may still seem a little difficult at
first, but at least learning them won't induce the bad habits inherent
in the dancers who, from the first, concentrate on looking good, instead
of feeling good.
Best of luck, please email anytime I can help, and I look forward to a
tanda sometime!
Regards to all,
Michael Figart II
Houston TX
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:30 AM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Close all the time vs all ranges debate
I take a class at my university for beginning tango. This is my
second term, and I wanted to share a few observations and ask your
thoughts:
Last term was my first ever tango class and my teacher began with
open embrace. We learned more figures and even got to touch on rad
things like ganchos and boleos. Around the 8th week of class, we
began doing close embrace. The leads in class found it very difficult
(vocally! ;) to do any of the figures they had learned in open, in
close. I think starting in open allowed a bit of "cheating" with
posture, use of arms (as in shoving-me-around-the-floor-with-arms use
of arms), and what my teacher calls duck-walking (cartoon cowboy
walks for those who have not had the pleasure).
This term, we've begun with close embrace. Personally, I'm thrilled
because my friends that continued from last term get to work on all
the things they know in close embrace. BUT, the learning curve is so
different! It seems to take longer for the brand new dancers to
understand the connection in close embrace (and every figure is first
taught in close), but once they get it, they can dance it in open.
One of the leads even mentioned to me that he totally got how the
thing he was doing at the time (the cross maybe? I forget) could
easily be B.S.ed in open. But at our weekly practicas I've danced
with him in open a few times and he, as with all the leads new this
term, can lead it just fine. The thing about beginning with close
embrace is that we have spent more time working on getting the
connection that we have learned very few figures. Its definitely a
trade off.
This all leads me to think that perhaps close embrace is a good way
*to begin* teaching AT. Like Christopher said, it really forces the
dancers to understand what a good connection feels like. For those of
us that are just jumping into the dance, the idea of connection is so
foreign that, I believe, it may be more constructive to shove it
under our noses at first. Only once we understand what it is that is
being asked of us, we can back off and use arms, legs, earlobes for
connection. I know for myself that having begun in open and then
spent this whole term in close, I have a much stronger understanding
of my connection in any embrace.
To me this is similar to many things. For instance, few people could
take an integral without understanding the concept of a tangent line.
What do you think about this? I would love to hear stories about
other beginning classes, or your own experience beginning with one
type of embrace. And what you thought about another kind when you
branched out. Thanks a ton guys!
Aurora @ PDX
p.s. sorry about how long that was - didn't mean to write a novel! Whew!
p.p.s. Tine a while back you asked about people at other
universities? Me! Me! Portland State U. is simply brimming with new
tangueros. Can I hit you up for ideas and such?
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:50:55 EDT
From: Euroking@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Close all the time vs all ranges debate
To: michaelfigart@yahoo.com, anemirow@pdx.edu
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Again we are looking this from our illusion of the central position and our
love of Tango being that central point. As is our desire to be good at it and
make it a mutually gratifying experience. It does not matter the style, it
is this love of Tango that drives us.
The rub is reality. Teachers need students, students need to be infected
with the central point. Some are infected almost immediately, some aren't. Some
come as couples, with one partner 'requiring the other, for the good of the
order, to participate". The both have to enjoy the learning experience to
come back for the second lesson. To some, the thought of trying to learn
something new and perceptively complicated while joined at the chest is
frightening and an invasion of their privacy. Why, culturally, it is an invasion of
their space, it is a commitment to a stranger that makes them uncomfortable,
there are probably many reasons. The point is that it inhibits some.
In addition, to pay money to learn how to walk is a turn off and a bore,
when first you don't have a good understanding of why you need it and two, you
want to go home and think you have learned something.
Hence, some teachers begin with an open embrace, where each student learns
to manage their own axis and each learns the 'basic patterns". As classes
progress, and the teacher lays sufficient ground worked on the cultural
background and the need to walk and be in balance, close embrace is more easily
introduced. I will not discount that the difference in learning curves will cause
problems and if the teacher allows bad habits to develop, the result might
not be to good. But, we have good teachers and unfortunately bad teachers.
The critical part of this approach is that the teacher must always be
providing info and guidance on the basics, the walk, the balance, the importance of
the connection, the need of listening to the music, as well as encouragement
to listen to the music outside of class.
This approach is neither right or wrong, but seems to me when recruiting new
dancers from the general populace, a open embrace approach is better. This
is from experience as I still have not been able to total bridge the gap with
my spouse on the close embrace with strangers routine, but that is another
quest.
A well motivated group could well begin in close embrace and do well. Again
the key is that the client base either as it exists or is desired will or
should dictate the method of teaching in the beginning classes. As students
desire to learn more and progress styles of teaching as well as learning styles
change.
IMHO, just some thoughts,
Bill in Seattle
In a message dated 5/5/2006 8:11:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
michaelfigart@yahoo.com writes:
Hello Aurora,
And welcome to the wonderful world of Argentine Tango. It really is
wonderful, please don't get a mistaken impression by viewing some of the
"animosity" on this list. I'm looking so forward to seeing all my
friends at the Memorial Day festival in Denver, I had a real blast at
Atlanta festival last month, etc, etc. If it wasn't for tango, my spare
time would probably still be limited to watching TV, playing with my
Labrador, and yardwork.
I'm of the personal opinion that Argentine Tango is best taught first as
a close-embrace dance (for reasons I won't go into here), but I do
believe that it's very possible to teach beginners in the open style
also, if done correctly. Both require stringent attention to developing
VERY basic skills, with much emphasis on connection, and leading mostly
with torso (actually I think we should lead and follow with every fiber
of our being, but the upper torso (read; chest) is the "communication
center" to transmit and receive).
A famous tango expression; "To learn Tango we must first learn to walk".
Teaching figures from the start is a classic way to get off on the wrong
foot. To start off right; Posture, embrace, connection. Axis, balance
(sometimes shared), center, weight, changing weight. Walking, walking
with the music, stopping, walking again. Walking and throwing a few
"quick-quicks". A few weeks of this and maybe time to throw in ocho
cortado to help keep people interested. Then cross-footed walking,
getting in and out of cross feet, cross-footed walking inside, then
outside, your partner. Then some back ochos. Technique, connection,
communication, technique, connection, communication, etc, etc.....You
get my drift.
Any teacher who teaches ganchos inside of 8 wks should be drawn and
quartered, in my opinion, whether teaching open or close.
Forget the figures, concentrate on feeling comfortable in the
frame/embrace, developing the technique, teaching your body how to move
naturally, and also naturally with another body, in this new wonderful
"walk".
Look for teachers who just ooze "natural" in their movements, who seem
to have the music in their hearts, who concentrate on the communication
aspects, and who tell the leaders that their primary goal is to make
their followers happy and secure, and to learn how to interpret the
beautiful music.
Save the figures for later, they may still seem a little difficult at
first, but at least learning them won't induce the bad habits inherent
in the dancers who, from the first, concentrate on looking good, instead
of feeling good.
Best of luck, please email anytime I can help, and I look forward to a
tanda sometime!
Regards to all,
Michael Figart II
Houston TX
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:30 AM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Close all the time vs all ranges debate
I take a class at my university for beginning tango. This is my
second term, and I wanted to share a few observations and ask your
thoughts:
Last term was my first ever tango class and my teacher began with
open embrace. We learned more figures and even got to touch on rad
things like ganchos and boleos. Around the 8th week of class, we
began doing close embrace. The leads in class found it very difficult
(vocally! ;) to do any of the figures they had learned in open, in
close. I think starting in open allowed a bit of "cheating" with
posture, use of arms (as in shoving-me-around-the-floor-with-arms use
of arms), and what my teacher calls duck-walking (cartoon cowboy
walks for those who have not had the pleasure).
This term, we've begun with close embrace. Personally, I'm thrilled
because my friends that continued from last term get to work on all
the things they know in close embrace. BUT, the learning curve is so
different! It seems to take longer for the brand new dancers to
understand the connection in close embrace (and every figure is first
taught in close), but once they get it, they can dance it in open.
One of the leads even mentioned to me that he totally got how the
thing he was doing at the time (the cross maybe? I forget) could
easily be B.S.ed in open. But at our weekly practicas I've danced
with him in open a few times and he, as with all the leads new this
term, can lead it just fine. The thing about beginning with close
embrace is that we have spent more time working on getting the
connection that we have learned very few figures. Its definitely a
trade off.
This all leads me to think that perhaps close embrace is a good way
*to begin* teaching AT. Like Christopher said, it really forces the
dancers to understand what a good connection feels like. For those of
us that are just jumping into the dance, the idea of connection is so
foreign that, I believe, it may be more constructive to shove it
under our noses at first. Only once we understand what it is that is
being asked of us, we can back off and use arms, legs, earlobes for
connection. I know for myself that having begun in open and then
spent this whole term in close, I have a much stronger understanding
of my connection in any embrace.
To me this is similar to many things. For instance, few people could
take an integral without understanding the concept of a tangent line.
What do you think about this? I would love to hear stories about
other beginning classes, or your own experience beginning with one
type of embrace. And what you thought about another kind when you
branched out. Thanks a ton guys!
Aurora @ PDX
p.s. sorry about how long that was - didn't mean to write a novel! Whew!
p.p.s. Tine a while back you asked about people at other
universities? Me! Me! Portland State U. is simply brimming with new
tangueros. Can I hit you up for ideas and such?
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L mailing list
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 12:02:16 -0500
From: "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Close all the time vs all ranges debate
To: "Euroking@aol.com" <Euroking@aol.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<183484970605051002x1621015ayec6b2301d200dc22@mail.gmail.com>
Hi Bill,
You make a lot of good points in your post below. I thought I would
share my experiences as a beginner with now one year experience.
My very first exposure to tango was 8 weeks of group instruction in
open embrace. We learned figures like ballroom dancers do. Somehow,
the dance immediately captured my heart and soul, but also, almost
immediately I knew we were learning and doing it wrong. The
instructor would line the ladies up on one side or the room, and teach
them their part, then teach the men their part, then put us together
and with a microphone she would call our each step and we 'danced
tango' all together like a square dance. Immediately I sensed that the
ladies did not need us leaders since they had the instructor with her
microphone. This was confirmed to me after class when I tried to lead
one of the ladies but I put the figures we learned in a different
order and she said, if you are going to change the order, could you
write the steps you want to do on a card and pin it to your shirt and
I will do them with you in the order you want. I knew we were in
trouble.
I went to my first milonga with real tango dancers and found I had no
way at all to move around the room in line of dance. I knew some
figures, but they were all done in one place. I was always in the way
of the other leaders. So I sat down and watched. The couples on the
floor were dancing so beautifully, I knew there was something there
and I was missing it.
Next I went to a few group lessons with a wonderful instructor of
close embrace. I didn't know ahead of time it would be close embrace,
it just happened to be that way. Here I learned to connect with my
partner, to move around the floor, to respect and enjoy the other
dancers. I'm certainly not saying this couldn't have been done just
as well in open embrace, just that my particular experience was with
close embrace all the time. I took some private lessons, and danced
whenever I could in close embrace. I loved it. For six months, I only
danced close embrace because I felt I would be overwhelmed and not do
anything right if I tried to learn two styles at the same time. In
retrospect, I'm not sure if this would have been true, but I believed
it at the time and stuck with close embrace.
Next I moved to a place where it turned out all the instructors all
taught open embrace. So - when in Rome, do as the Romans do. So I
put my whole heart and sole into learning open embrace figures, but
maintaining the connection and actually leading my partners, not the
square dance like tango of my first exposure. This was very
rewarding.
Today, I love both styles, open and close embrace. I choose which to
use based on many factors, my partner, my mood, the music, the floor
(crowded, open, etc). Usually I do any single dance in one style or
the other, but sometimes in a tanda I will switch from open to close
and maybe back to open again. As you point out, some partners
immediately enjoy close embrace, and some perhaps for cultural or
other reasons are more comfortable at least at first in an open
embrace. To me, it is all about I and my partner connecting and if we
connect better in open, fine, and if we connect better in close, that
is fine to. Both ways, the dance can be heavenly.
Well, I really haven't any advice here or points to make, just sharing
my experience as a one year beginner. I certainly would not yet say I
am 'good' at either style, but I have had some wonderful moments in
both styles, and that is about as good as it gets I think.
For me, if the floor is very crowded, or if I have a partner who is
not very experienced in tango, but is willing to dance close embrace,
I can get around the floor without being disruptive to the other
dancers and make a pleasant experience for my partner better in close
embrace than in open. If the floor is more open and other dancers are
less a consideration, and if my partner allows me to lead i.e. is not
an ocho machine as discussed in other posts, I can make a pretty nice
experience for both of us in open embrace. Again, this is me
personally with my experience and should not be taken as a legitimate
comparison of open and close embrace. This dance is different for
each of us and I am just sharing how it works or doesn't work for me.
Have a wonderful tango day.
Ed
On 5/5/06, Euroking@aol.com <Euroking@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Again we are looking this from our illusion of the central position and our
> love of Tango being that central point. As is our desire to be good at it and
> make it a mutually gratifying experience. It does not matter the style, it
> is this love of Tango that drives us.
>
> The rub is reality. Teachers need students, students need to be infected
> with the central point. Some are infected almost immediately, some aren't. Some
> come as couples, with one partner 'requiring the other, for the good of the
> order, to participate". The both have to enjoy the learning experience to
> come back for the second lesson. To some, the thought of trying to learn
> something new and perceptively complicated while joined at the chest is
> frightening and an invasion of their privacy. Why, culturally, it is an invasion of
> their space, it is a commitment to a stranger that makes them uncomfortable,
> there are probably many reasons. The point is that it inhibits some.
>
> In addition, to pay money to learn how to walk is a turn off and a bore,
> when first you don't have a good understanding of why you need it and two, you
> want to go home and think you have learned something.
>
> Hence, some teachers begin with an open embrace, where each student learns
> to manage their own axis and each learns the 'basic patterns". As classes
> progress, and the teacher lays sufficient ground worked on the cultural
> background and the need to walk and be in balance, close embrace is more easily
> introduced. I will not discount that the difference in learning curves will cause
> problems and if the teacher allows bad habits to develop, the result might
> not be to good. But, we have good teachers and unfortunately bad teachers.
>
> The critical part of this approach is that the teacher must always be
> providing info and guidance on the basics, the walk, the balance, the importance of
> the connection, the need of listening to the music, as well as encouragement
> to listen to the music outside of class.
>
> This approach is neither right or wrong, but seems to me when recruiting new
> dancers from the general populace, a open embrace approach is better. This
> is from experience as I still have not been able to total bridge the gap with
> my spouse on the close embrace with strangers routine, but that is another
> quest.
>
> A well motivated group could well begin in close embrace and do well. Again
> the key is that the client base either as it exists or is desired will or
> should dictate the method of teaching in the beginning classes. As students
> desire to learn more and progress styles of teaching as well as learning styles
> change.
>
> IMHO, just some thoughts,
>
> Bill in Seattle
>
> In a message dated 5/5/2006 8:11:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> michaelfigart@yahoo.com writes:
>
> Hello Aurora,
>
> And welcome to the wonderful world of Argentine Tango. It really is
> wonderful, please don't get a mistaken impression by viewing some of the
> "animosity" on this list. I'm looking so forward to seeing all my
> friends at the Memorial Day festival in Denver, I had a real blast at
> Atlanta festival last month, etc, etc. If it wasn't for tango, my spare
> time would probably still be limited to watching TV, playing with my
> Labrador, and yardwork.
>
> I'm of the personal opinion that Argentine Tango is best taught first as
> a close-embrace dance (for reasons I won't go into here), but I do
> believe that it's very possible to teach beginners in the open style
> also, if done correctly. Both require stringent attention to developing
> VERY basic skills, with much emphasis on connection, and leading mostly
> with torso (actually I think we should lead and follow with every fiber
> of our being, but the upper torso (read; chest) is the "communication
> center" to transmit and receive).
>
> A famous tango expression; "To learn Tango we must first learn to walk".
>
> Teaching figures from the start is a classic way to get off on the wrong
> foot. To start off right; Posture, embrace, connection. Axis, balance
> (sometimes shared), center, weight, changing weight. Walking, walking
> with the music, stopping, walking again. Walking and throwing a few
> "quick-quicks". A few weeks of this and maybe time to throw in ocho
> cortado to help keep people interested. Then cross-footed walking,
> getting in and out of cross feet, cross-footed walking inside, then
> outside, your partner. Then some back ochos. Technique, connection,
> communication, technique, connection, communication, etc, etc.....You
> get my drift.
>
> Any teacher who teaches ganchos inside of 8 wks should be drawn and
> quartered, in my opinion, whether teaching open or close.
>
> Forget the figures, concentrate on feeling comfortable in the
> frame/embrace, developing the technique, teaching your body how to move
> naturally, and also naturally with another body, in this new wonderful
> "walk".
>
> Look for teachers who just ooze "natural" in their movements, who seem
> to have the music in their hearts, who concentrate on the communication
> aspects, and who tell the leaders that their primary goal is to make
> their followers happy and secure, and to learn how to interpret the
> beautiful music.
>
> Save the figures for later, they may still seem a little difficult at
> first, but at least learning them won't induce the bad habits inherent
> in the dancers who, from the first, concentrate on looking good, instead
> of feeling good.
>
> Best of luck, please email anytime I can help, and I look forward to a
> tanda sometime!
>
> Regards to all,
>
> Michael Figart II
> Houston TX
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf
> Of Aurora Nemirow
> Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:30 AM
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Close all the time vs all ranges debate
>
> I take a class at my university for beginning tango. This is my
> second term, and I wanted to share a few observations and ask your
> thoughts:
>
> Last term was my first ever tango class and my teacher began with
> open embrace. We learned more figures and even got to touch on rad
> things like ganchos and boleos. Around the 8th week of class, we
> began doing close embrace. The leads in class found it very difficult
> (vocally! ;) to do any of the figures they had learned in open, in
> close. I think starting in open allowed a bit of "cheating" with
> posture, use of arms (as in shoving-me-around-the-floor-with-arms use
> of arms), and what my teacher calls duck-walking (cartoon cowboy
> walks for those who have not had the pleasure).
>
> This term, we've begun with close embrace. Personally, I'm thrilled
> because my friends that continued from last term get to work on all
> the things they know in close embrace. BUT, the learning curve is so
> different! It seems to take longer for the brand new dancers to
> understand the connection in close embrace (and every figure is first
> taught in close), but once they get it, they can dance it in open.
> One of the leads even mentioned to me that he totally got how the
> thing he was doing at the time (the cross maybe? I forget) could
> easily be B.S.ed in open. But at our weekly practicas I've danced
> with him in open a few times and he, as with all the leads new this
> term, can lead it just fine. The thing about beginning with close
> embrace is that we have spent more time working on getting the
> connection that we have learned very few figures. Its definitely a
> trade off.
>
> This all leads me to think that perhaps close embrace is a good way
> *to begin* teaching AT. Like Christopher said, it really forces the
> dancers to understand what a good connection feels like. For those of
> us that are just jumping into the dance, the idea of connection is so
> foreign that, I believe, it may be more constructive to shove it
> under our noses at first. Only once we understand what it is that is
> being asked of us, we can back off and use arms, legs, earlobes for
> connection. I know for myself that having begun in open and then
> spent this whole term in close, I have a much stronger understanding
> of my connection in any embrace.
>
> To me this is similar to many things. For instance, few people could
> take an integral without understanding the concept of a tangent line.
>
> What do you think about this? I would love to hear stories about
> other beginning classes, or your own experience beginning with one
> type of embrace. And what you thought about another kind when you
> branched out. Thanks a ton guys!
>
>
> Aurora @ PDX
>
>
>
> p.s. sorry about how long that was - didn't mean to write a novel! Whew!
>
> p.p.s. Tine a while back you asked about people at other
> universities? Me! Me! Portland State U. is simply brimming with new
> tangueros. Can I hit you up for ideas and such?
> Tango-L mailing list
>
> Tango-L mailing list
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 20:20:52 EDT
From: Euroking@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Close all the time vs all ranges debate
To: doyleed@gmail.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Thanks Ed,
Interesting, it really is the teacher. The major difference with my early
beginning classes was the constant reminder of the importance of the walk,
posture and the connection. Teaching was figures, and separating the lead and
follow did occur, but we (leads) were encouraged to vary our patterns, to
instill with in the follow that they can't or should not anticipate. This
approach help eliminate " If you are going to change the order..." problem. Follows
were told that the lead leads and that they are always right. But as a
consequence of that responsibility we had to ensure the follow looked good. The
point is that leading and following is a shared responsibility, and as I
continue to learn, I find it is the follow that initiates, for me whether we will
dance closed or open. I offer and where she connects is where we will dance.
Exceptions abound but I was taught it was not my position to dictate but to
share. The key is mutual enjoyment not self gratification. I was also told I
am only as good as what my partner feels, and it will change with every
partner.
Again just some thoughts,
Thanks,
Bill in Seattle
In a message dated 5/5/2006 10:02:53 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
doyleed@gmail.com writes:
Hi Bill,
You make a lot of good points in your post below. I thought I would
share my experiences as a beginner with now one year experience.
My very first exposure to tango was 8 weeks of group instruction in
open embrace. We learned figures like ballroom dancers do. Somehow,
the dance immediately captured my heart and soul, but also, almost
immediately I knew we were learning and doing it wrong. The
instructor would line the ladies up on one side or the room, and teach
them their part, then teach the men their part, then put us together
and with a microphone she would call our each step and we 'danced
tango' all together like a square dance. Immediately I sensed that the
ladies did not need us leaders since they had the instructor with her
microphone. This was confirmed to me after class when I tried to lead
one of the ladies but I put the figures we learned in a different
order and she said, if you are going to change the order, could you
write the steps you want to do on a card and pin it to your shirt and
I will do them with you in the order you want. I knew we were in
trouble.
I went to my first milonga with real tango dancers and found I had no
way at all to move around the room in line of dance. I knew some
figures, but they were all done in one place. I was always in the way
of the other leaders. So I sat down and watched. The couples on the
floor were dancing so beautifully, I knew there was something there
and I was missing it.
Next I went to a few group lessons with a wonderful instructor of
close embrace. I didn't know ahead of time it would be close embrace,
it just happened to be that way. Here I learned to connect with my
partner, to move around the floor, to respect and enjoy the other
dancers. I'm certainly not saying this couldn't have been done just
as well in open embrace, just that my particular experience was with
close embrace all the time. I took some private lessons, and danced
whenever I could in close embrace. I loved it. For six months, I only
danced close embrace because I felt I would be overwhelmed and not do
anything right if I tried to learn two styles at the same time. In
retrospect, I'm not sure if this would have been true, but I believed
it at the time and stuck with close embrace.
Next I moved to a place where it turned out all the instructors all
taught open embrace. So - when in Rome, do as the Romans do. So I
put my whole heart and sole into learning open embrace figures, but
maintaining the connection and actually leading my partners, not the
square dance like tango of my first exposure. This was very
rewarding.
Today, I love both styles, open and close embrace. I choose which to
use based on many factors, my partner, my mood, the music, the floor
(crowded, open, etc). Usually I do any single dance in one style or
the other, but sometimes in a tanda I will switch from open to close
and maybe back to open again. As you point out, some partners
immediately enjoy close embrace, and some perhaps for cultural or
other reasons are more comfortable at least at first in an open
embrace. To me, it is all about I and my partner connecting and if we
connect better in open, fine, and if we connect better in close, that
is fine to. Both ways, the dance can be heavenly.
Well, I really haven't any advice here or points to make, just sharing
my experience as a one year beginner. I certainly would not yet say I
am 'good' at either style, but I have had some wonderful moments in
both styles, and that is about as good as it gets I think.
For me, if the floor is very crowded, or if I have a partner who is
not very experienced in tango, but is willing to dance close embrace,
I can get around the floor without being disruptive to the other
dancers and make a pleasant experience for my partner better in close
embrace than in open. If the floor is more open and other dancers are
less a consideration, and if my partner allows me to lead i.e. is not
an ocho machine as discussed in other posts, I can make a pretty nice
experience for both of us in open embrace. Again, this is me
personally with my experience and should not be taken as a legitimate
comparison of open and close embrace. This dance is different for
each of us and I am just sharing how it works or doesn't work for me.
Have a wonderful tango day.
Ed
Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 15:37:49 +0000
From: "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Close all the time vs all ranges debate
To: tango-l@mit.edu
My 2cents on a couple of points ...
Bill wrote:
"Follows were told that the lead leads and that they are always right."
Apologies if I appear to be elevating Trenner to mythical status, but I just
find his philosophy insightful and simpatico with my own. He once said
something like, "If you [leader] are right [in leading a step], and the
follower is wrong [mis-steps], then you [leader] are wrong." Leader and
follower both dance to the same music, sort of. The problem is that there
are multiple "voices" or
"themes" in a composition. I may be dancing to the bandoneon, and my
follower may be hearing the vocals or the strings. It has happened,
especially in milongas, with their faster tempo allowing less response time,
that I will hear a change in the music and will change my step tempo. The
problem usually occurs when switching from traspie to regular time. If my
lead is not clear or quick enough, and the follower doesn't catch the
change, I consider that it was my mistake, not hers.
"...it is the follow that initiates, for me whether we will dance closed or
open."
I agree completely. That's the way I was taught too. Women sometimes are
uncomfortable in close embrace with particular partners, for a variety of
reasons. Since their comfort and enjoyment is indeed (IMO) our (leader's)
purpose, we must honor their preference.
J
www.TangoMoments.com
