4023 Close Embrace All the Time People
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:02:08 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Close Embrace All the Time People
Dear Trini, I understand what you are saying andI I
agree with you 100 percent. In Argentine Tango one
tries to adapt and comunicate... be the best one can
be for a partner, not try to control him or her. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <patangos@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> First, thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts
> on the molinete and bringing up so many different
> aspects. I want to experiment a bit further before
I
> comment on that thread.
>
> But heres an easy thread to which to respond. From
> Derik:
> "My view is that tango is primarily a social dance
and
> one should be able to dance immediately with
'anyone'
> who walks in the room."
>
> As I have explored the different styles and worked
on
> musicality, I have come to really appreciate the
> honesty my dance partners have shared with me. By
> that, I mean, their being authentic to themselves,
to
> their tastes, to their preferences in music and
> movement. When my partners are honest with
themselves
> and with me, we have a more meaningful conversation.
> So a gancho means more than just a gancho its
> becomes a means for intimacy (not sex, but
intimacy).
>
>
> I first noticed this last year when a gentleman who
> greatly preferred salon to milonguero asked me to
> dance at a milonga. Rather than dance salon,
however,
> he danced milonguero style since he knew that was my
> preferred style. I thought it was so sweet of him,
> especially in the 10 years that I have known him, I
> never even knew that he studied any milonguero (he
> lives in another city).
>
> Although I really appreciated his efforts, I
couldn't
> help but feel that he wasn't free to be who he was,
to
> share his own feelings in the dance. Because of
that
> I felt a little trapped myself. We still had an
> enjoyable dance, but I would have liked to have
given
> him a "wow" dance, not just a "nice" dance.
>
> Since then, I have tried harder to help my partner
> dance as true to himself/herself as much as
possible.
> My joy from tango comes from learning about my
partner
> and sharing an honest conversation. Which means
that
> if a persons only way of conversing with me is
> open-embrace, then we dance open. If his/her only
way
> is in close, then we dance close. And who knows, I
> just might learn something.
>
> The converse of that is that if I am not able to
give
> my partner a meaningful dance, then it is better
that
> I dont dance with them. That is simply because I
do
> not want to give them a bad dance and I never want
to
> resent dancing with them.
>
> A few thoughts,
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
most popular social dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
> Just $16.99/mo. or less.
>
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:34:26 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Close Embrace All the Time People
I had a similar experience with a man who only dances salon. He told me he
had never danced close before and doesn't with anyone else. We started out
dancing salon, but drifted into close embrace. Now when he and I dance, we
dance close. It's great.
When I'm in Bs.As, I find some men start out in close, but go into open with
me once they find out I'm a good follower. I think it's like taking the
sports car out onto the open road to see how much you can get out of it.
Lois
Minneapolis
> > I first noticed this last year when a gentleman who
> > greatly preferred salon to milonguero asked me to
> > dance at a milonga. Rather than dance salon,
> however,
> > he danced milonguero style since he knew that was my
> preferred style.
> > I thought it was so sweet of him, especially in the 10 years that I
> > have known him, I never even knew that he studied any milonguero (he
> > lives in another city).
> >
> > Although I really appreciated his efforts, I
> couldn't
> > help but feel that he wasn't free to be who he was,
> to
> > share his own feelings in the dance. Because of
> that
> > I felt a little trapped myself. We still had an
> > enjoyable dance, but I would have liked to have
> given
> > him a "wow" dance, not just a "nice" dance.
> >
> > Since then, I have tried harder to help my partner
> > dance as true to himself/herself as much as
> possible.
> > My joy from tango comes from learning about my
> partner
> > and sharing an honest conversation. Which means
> that
> > if a persons only way of conversing with me is
> > open-embrace, then we dance open. If his/her only
> way
> > is in close, then we dance close. And who knows, I
> > just might learn something.
> >
> > The converse of that is that if I am not able to
> give
> > my partner a meaningful dance, then it is better
> that
> > I dont dance with them. That is simply because I
> do
> > not want to give them a bad dance and I never want
> to
> > resent dancing with them.
> >
> > A few thoughts,
> > Trini de Pittsburgh
> >
> >
> > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> most popular social dance.
> > https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
> > Just $16.99/mo. or less.
> >
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
> Just $16.99/mo. or less.
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
>
--
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Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:44:17 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: "Close Embrace All the Time People are at it again in Missouri and elsewhere"..Truth is that they cannot dance tango with most people in the world..so why would one want to learn this stuff being sold as sex...
Derik Rawson wrote:
>Dear All:
>
>I am really getting tired of hearing people selling
>"close embrace all the time" as sex.
>
And then in his response to Lois Donnay's post, he writes:
>A woman leading the dance is not the same experience
>as a man leading the dance.
>
Who specifically would you say is, 'selling "close embrace
all the time" as sex'? I suspect that the "Swedish bikini
team" approach to marketing tango has yet to be tried.
Maybe that's what they're up to with those scanty costumes
stage dancers wear ...
And if you compare the 2 emails, then you see a pretty big
inconsistency between the two.
I've seen tango described as intimate, but then 2 5-year
olds sitting together on a playground swing are having a
fairly intimate experience too.
I have also heard it said many times that the highest level
tango ever got to was when men danced together on a regular
basis in BsAs. Funny, that we don't see a gigantic rush of
men learning to follow, except among the serious students
of the dance. Gee, I wonder why? Maybe it was the cheapest
sport in town in the way back then.
What I do know for sure is that if tango didn't represent an
opportunity for men and women to interact in a positive way,
and perhaps even to hook up the scene would never have taken
off to begin with, even back in the 1880's.
Sex is such a part of being human (QUICK: don't think of pink
elephants in tutu), any time you have two humans interacting,
sex is a major consideration, regardless of their genders. All
we can do is to be responsible for that part of ourselves and
behave gracefully and considerately in terms of not imposing
ourselves an our values on others.
Christopher
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:18:39 -0800
From: El Mundo del Tango <mail@ELMUNDODELTANGO.COM>
Subject: Re: Close Embrace All the Time People
Correct me if I am wrong . From reading your first paragraph I conclude that
for you "close" and "open"(we should call it "distant", I think) are two
"worlds" or "styles" apart. Seems that for you Salon is "open" and "another
style" is "close". I disagree 1000%.
Authentic social Argentine Salon Tango is danced in both embraces,
constantly transitioning from one to the other, depending on vocabulary,
floor conditions and partner.
Furthermore, the difference between Salon and the so called
"milonguero"(Apilado) is not the distance but rather the angle of the
embrace, the shoulder of the leader over which the follower is looking and
the reliance on one's own axes, as opposed to leaning on each other.
We can dance very much in close embrace and it is still Salon and we need
not learn another "style".
Teaching otherwise leads to confussion, irritation , unnecessary arguements
and quiting, thereby Tango communities shrinking. Not a good idea.
Gabriel
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Close Embrace All the Time People
I had a similar experience with a man who only dances salon. He told me he
had never danced close before and doesn't with anyone else. We started out
dancing salon, but drifted into close embrace. Now when he and I dance, we
dance close. It's great.
When I'm in Bs.As, I find some men start out in close, but go into open with
me once they find out I'm a good follower. I think it's like taking the
sports car out onto the open road to see how much you can get out of it.
Lois
Minneapolis
> > I first noticed this last year when a gentleman who
> > greatly preferred salon to milonguero asked me to
> > dance at a milonga. Rather than dance salon,
> however,
> > he danced milonguero style since he knew that was my
> preferred style.
> > I thought it was so sweet of him, especially in the 10 years that I
> > have known him, I never even knew that he studied any milonguero (he
> > lives in another city).
> >
> > Although I really appreciated his efforts, I
> couldn't
> > help but feel that he wasn't free to be who he was,
> to
> > share his own feelings in the dance. Because of
> that
> > I felt a little trapped myself. We still had an
> > enjoyable dance, but I would have liked to have
> given
> > him a "wow" dance, not just a "nice" dance.
> >
> > Since then, I have tried harder to help my partner
> > dance as true to himself/herself as much as
> possible.
> > My joy from tango comes from learning about my
> partner
> > and sharing an honest conversation. Which means
> that
> > if a persons only way of conversing with me is
> > open-embrace, then we dance open. If his/her only
> way
> > is in close, then we dance close. And who knows, I
> > just might learn something.
> >
> > The converse of that is that if I am not able to
> give
> > my partner a meaningful dance, then it is better
> that
> > I dont dance with them. That is simply because I
> do
> > not want to give them a bad dance and I never want
> to
> > resent dancing with them.
> >
> > A few thoughts,
> > Trini de Pittsburgh
> >
> >
> > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> most popular social dance.
> > https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
> > Just $16.99/mo. or less.
> >
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
> Just $16.99/mo. or less.
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:48:39 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: The "brutes" are not the "open embrace-close embrace people". It is the "close embrace all the time people".The reverse.
Dear Igor:
> As one Russian "brute" to another...
>
> Actually, I do become a "brute" from time to time
> and dance leaning on my partner and shoving her
around
> in the "close embrace all the time" manner, because
> sometimes my "close embrace all the time" follower
> cannot follow my body without a shove. It is fun to
> do sometimes ....lol. My problem is that it gets to
> be boring, because for me it limits the dance.
>
> Overall, I much prefer dancing with a partner who is
> my equal, a partner that is always balanced on their
> own weight and can easily move from close embrace to
> open embrace in one fluid motion. This way, body
> contact, and shoving, is not necessary for the
> follower to follow. It is also less
> 'brutish"...lol.
>
> I agree with what Gabriel said in a recent E-mail to
> this list:
>
> "Furthermore, the difference between Salon and the
> so called "milonguero" (Apilado) is not the distance
> but rather the angle of the embrace, the shoulder of
the leader
> over which the follower is looking and the reliance
> on one's own axes, as opposed to leaning on each
other.
>
> We can dance very much in close embrace and it is
> still Salon and we need not learn another "style".
> Teaching otherwise leads to confussion, irritation ,
> unnecessary arguements and quiting, thereby Tango
> communities shrinking. Not a good idea.
>
> Gabriel"
>
> Anyway, thank you for the comments. Have a great
> day.
>
> Derik
> d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
>
> --- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
> > Dear Sean:
> >
> > Hola!
> >
> > The problem here, is that we are again dealing
> with
> > an
> > "out right lie and fabrication" from Susan Miller
> > and
> > her "brutish" and "controling" little group of
> > so-called "close embrace all the time" dancers.
> If
> > you do not believe me, just click on the link
> below
> > to
> > see a picture of Susana Miller dancing. As you
> will
> > see in the picture, she is absolutely leaning on
> her
> > dance partner. She is not balanced on her own
> > weight
> > as you and her claim. The so called illusion is
> BS.
> > If the man in this picture stepped away from her,
> > she
> > would fall flat on her face.
> >
> >
>
https://www.rawsonweb.com/tango/Design/Assets/Images/wtsusanamiller.gif
> >
> > The fact is that "close embrace all the time"
> > follower
> > has to be pushed around physically by direct
> contact
> > with the leader's body to take a step, and that to
> > me
> > is far more "brutish" than a leader in an an open
> > embrace simply moving his body to indicate where
> the
> > follower might want to go.
> >
> > The fundamental problem with "close embrace all
> the
> > time" followers is that they most of them do not
> > know
> > how to follow a leader unless they are pushed
> > around.
> > They are not shown by the "close embrace all the
> > time"
> > teachers how to follow a leader without body
> > contact.
> >
> > The "brutes" are not the open embrace people. It
> is
> > the reverse.
> >
> > PS- Please read my E-mail to Trini below
> again....
> >
> > Derik
> > d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
> >
> > --- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> > > From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Re: [TANGO-L] Close Embrace All the
> > > Time People
> > > To: patangos@YAHOO.COM, TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> > > CC: d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
> > >
> > > Dear Trini, I understand what you are saying and
> I
> > > agree with you 100 percent. In Argentine Tango
> one
> > > tries to adapt and comunicate... be the best one
> > can
> > > be for a partner, not try to control him or her.
> > > Derik
