5169  communites of all gender leading

Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:47:11 -0400
From: jackie ling wong <jackie.wong@adelphia.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] communites of all gender leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu

daniel trenner lives in northampton ma and his students are
definitely encouraged to switch roles from day one. i also encourage
students locally to switch and experiment. it's easier for both
danny and i because the two of us teach in colleges... amherst, mt
holyoke, bard, williams college... personally, i find that younger
students are more open to switching roles.

i always lead at milongas and have been known to lead at milongas in
buenos aires. porteno y bailerin, la viruta, la marshall and
milongas that la vikinga hosts are generally open to "alternative"
pairing. i heard recently that the milonga that uses the same space
as la marshall on another night, asks a woman who was leading and
another that was wearing sneakers to leave. please note that i'm
passing on information which i didn't witness.

jackie
www.tangopulse.net

Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:11:51 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] communites of all gender leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Encouraging students to switch roles during classes and practice is a good thing because it aids the process of learning Tango. It can
also be entertaining in a Tango Show - especially if the couple are skilful.

Having said that, switching roles in a milonga is a totally different thing and should not be encouraged. I'll come out flat and say it -
In a milonga, unless the couple are gay, I hate to see men dancing with men and women dancing with women. Why? Because it destroys the
whole feeling of the dance and can destroy the feeling and enjoyment of the milonga. We all say that Tango is about 'feeling' as well as
technique and I certainly agree with that. But same-sex dancing is 100% about technique, with absolutely no feeling involved - unless the
couple are gay and, as I've said, in that case I have no objection. La Marshall was very enjoyable.

Another thing - we all rail against showing off in milongas. Don't we all hate that? Or at least we say we do. But let's be clear - most
people who switch roles during a molonga are showing off - pure and simple. The man is showing off that he can follow, the woman is
showing off that she can lead. What they're saying is ... "look at us, look how clever we are". And they do it selfishly, with a complete
disregard for all the other dancers present.

Many people, including Igor in a recent post, have a misconception that there's a tradition in Argentina of men dancing with men. This
just isn't true. Men practice with men, they don't dance together. When I see same-sex dancing in BsAs, I always think the same thing -
"look at the stupid tourists".

Keith, HK




On Thu Sep 13 1:47 , jackie ling wong sent:

>daniel trenner lives in northampton ma and his students are
>definitely encouraged to switch roles from day one. i also encourage
>students locally to switch and experiment. it's easier for both
>danny and i because the two of us teach in colleges... amherst, mt
>holyoke, bard, williams college... personally, i find that younger
>students are more open to switching roles.
>
>i always lead at milongas and have been known to lead at milongas in
>buenos aires. porteno y bailerin, la viruta, la marshall and
>milongas that la vikinga hosts are generally open to "alternative"
>pairing. i heard recently that the milonga that uses the same space
>as la marshall on another night, asks a woman who was leading and
>another that was wearing sneakers to leave. please note that i'm
>passing on information which i didn't witness.
>
>jackie
>www.tangopulse.net
>
>

Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:35:22 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] communites of all gender leading
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Dear Keith of HK,
I did not mention Argentina at all. I said it happened everywhere ( in
jails, at schools, at factory parties) and in all historical periods, with
all dances, but only if there was not enough of the opposite sex to dance
with.

Here is one example I copied from my blog
https://www.virtuar.com/tango/tango_weblog.htm

2006 September 13

Reading a book "Calaveras County Gold Rush Stories" by Edna Buckbee, I have
found the following story happened around 1850 in Angels Camp, about 2 hour
drive from San Francisco now. Angels Camp "had a population of 300 exclusive
of Indians" of gold miners ( you can imagine those folks! )

"At Lake's hotel [a one-story frame building, the only one around], though
there were no women in the camp, a ball was given. The dancers depended for
music on two amateurs, a fiddler and flutist. The fiddler shouted out the
various figures of the quadrille and the merry-making was kept up for
several hours. After each dance had come to an end the fiddler, remembering
the dancers' thirst and the welfare of Mr. Lake's barroom, called out in
tones louder than usual, Promenade all to the bar and treat your partner!
The absence of women in the camp was a difficulty easily conquered for it
was arranged that any man wearing a square patch on the seat of his jeans,
was to be treated as a "lady".. It was a strange sight to see a party of
long-bearded men in heavy boots and flannel shirts going through all the
steps and figures of the dance with so much spirit and often with a great
deal of grace."


Note - they did already know how to dance, and how to dance in both roles !
Doesn't it tell something to you?

I do not think the topic of changing roles deserves much attention. It is
always better to dance than to sit in the corner. Only in our spoiled times
somehow modern people ( under the heavey influence of shameless media )
think of it as something extraordinary. No.


Igor Polk

Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:29:16 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] communites of all gender leading
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600709131029v32ce04e8s956a5116c1d25f6a@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/13/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:

> [...] it happened everywhere ( in
> jails, at schools, at factory parties) and in all historical periods, with
> all dances, but only if there was not enough of the opposite sex to dance
> with.

I think you are right. One other factor that contributed to this
phenomenon, but is sometimes overlooked, is that all music was live -
there was no recorded music. Consequently, dancers depended, in part,
on chance encounters with street musicians or impromptu bands if they
wanted to practice or dance. Hence they had to do it with whomever was
at hand when they happened to be in the vicinity of (live) music.

An eyewitness account describing this in a tango context (as something
normal and out of necessity to use every opportunity to practice) is,
for example, in the memoirs of the police chief (I forget the exact
reference but can provide it if needed).

I suspect that tango was no more men-with-men dance than any other
dance in the 19th century. There is scant photographic evidence from
the late 19th and very early 20th century, and unfortunately the one
series of five photos of men posing (dancing? fooling around? playing
up on what the photographer expected? how would we know?) has been
extrapolated from and interpreted as representative, amplified beyond
any justification, and of course connected back to that enduring
stereotype of tango as 'dirty and exotic'.

With best regards,

Konstantin
Victoria, Canada

Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:16:24 -0500
From: "Lois Donnay" <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] communites of all gender leading
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Keith (HK) - I don't doubt that you believe that this can destroy your
feeling and enjoyment of the milonga, and I truly believe that when you
dance in a milonga, you dance with everyone on the floor, not just your
partner. What happens around you can upset your dance, and therefore your
partner.

But please don't say that a dance with a same-sex partner is "showing
off-pure and simple" or has "absolutely no feeling involved" I have had
wonderful dances when I am led by other women. Women and men ask me, a
woman, to lead them because they like to dance with me. Partly because
women aren't inclined to show off, but just give their partner a good dance.

Of course, this may not be good news for some men, especially those who
don't dance well, or like showing off more than giving the woman a good
dance.

I am reminded of an incident several years ago when a guy asked me why women
liked to dance with me. I said "I'll show you-let's dance." He hesitated, I
encouraged, - he said ok. After the dance he paused for a few moments, then
said "Let's do it again!"

It will be a wonderful day when we can make choices without regard to
society's restraints and judgements. Where would tango be without that?

Sharing a tango with a good friend have absolutely no feeling? What kind of
feelings are you looking for???

Loisa

> Encouraging students to switch roles during classes and practice is a good
> thing because it aids the process of learning Tango. It can
> also be entertaining in a Tango Show - especially if the couple are
> skilful.
>
> Having said that, switching roles in a milonga is a totally different
> thing and should not be encouraged. I'll come out flat and say it -
> In a milonga, unless the couple are gay, I hate to see men dancing with
> men and women dancing with women. Why? Because it destroys the
> whole feeling of the dance and can destroy the feeling and enjoyment of
> the milonga. We all say that Tango is about 'feeling' as well as
> technique and I certainly agree with that. But same-sex dancing is 100%
> about technique, with absolutely no feeling involved - unless the
> couple are gay and, as I've said, in that case I have no objection. La
> Marshall was very enjoyable.
>
> Another thing - we all rail against showing off in milongas. Don't we all
> hate that? Or at least we say we do. But let's be clear - most
> people who switch roles during a molonga are showing off - pure and
> simple. The man is showing off that he can follow, the woman is
> showing off that she can lead. What they're saying is ... "look at us,
> look how clever we are". And they do it selfishly, with a complete
> disregard for all the other dancers present.
>
> Many people, including Igor in a recent post, have a misconception that
> there's a tradition in Argentina of men dancing with men. This
> just isn't true. Men practice with men, they don't dance together. When I
> see same-sex dancing in BsAs, I always think the same thing -
> "look at the stupid tourists".
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
>
>
> On Thu Sep 13 1:47 , jackie ling wong sent:
>
>>daniel trenner lives in northampton ma and his students are
>>definitely encouraged to switch roles from day one. i also encourage
>>students locally to switch and experiment. it's easier for both
>>danny and i because the two of us teach in colleges... amherst, mt
>>holyoke, bard, williams college... personally, i find that younger
>>students are more open to switching roles.
>>
>>i always lead at milongas and have been known to lead at milongas in
>>buenos aires. porteno y bailerin, la viruta, la marshall and
>>milongas that la vikinga hosts are generally open to "alternative"
>>pairing. i heard recently that the milonga that uses the same space
>>as la marshall on another night, asks a woman who was leading and
>>another that was wearing sneakers to leave. please note that i'm
>>passing on information which i didn't witness.
>>
>>jackie
>>www.tangopulse.net
>>
>>
>
>
>
>