4682  Community Expansion Brainwashing

Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:48:59 -0500
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainwashing
To: tango-L@mit.edu

Bravo to Robert for spitting on the unfounded arguments recently put
forward. I have only a few points to add...

(1) If you're talking about community building as a spectator, you had
better be getting your ass on the floor and giving people good dances.
To cast aspersions on teachers, organizers, performers, or even DJs,
without having first shut up and done your part to be a good community
member, is poop.

(2) This home-town crap (tango in BA, bop in NYC) is ludicrous. Tango
and jazz both went abroad to find their first audiences and devotees on
the world stage. Thanks be to the greater aesthetic sensibilities of
Europe for that (and to the erstwhile cheap rents of Paris). Many of the
great jazz musicians (like many in tango) lived in and on Europe. Only
when these arts had risen to glory (and commercial promise) did their
home countries accept them back, and make a big ruckus about national
treasures, which is pure hogwash.

(3) America isn't the country that came up with tango electronica, and
it wasn't Americans living in Paris either. Also, there's more to the
good stuff (as opposed to the crud) than a bass beat and a bandoneon,
which should be readily apparent to anyone with a keen ear for music.

(4) The "BA milonga experience," to the best of my knowledge, consists
of overcrowded floors (which eliminate the possibility of dancing
fantasia, which appears to have been a social form before it was taken
to the stage in the rock n' roll era), of tourists aplenty, and of
inexpensive but good quality beef in large, lean cuts. If anyone wants
to introduce a good, cheap steak to the DC milongas, you have my full
support.

(5) Saying that everyone has to go to Buenos Aires is like saying
everyone in BA has to go to La Viruta. Are these people in advertising?

(6) There continue to be plenty of Argentine dancers living and teaching
in Europe and the US. I wonder how much they want to re-create BA abroad.

(7) I know plenty of musicians who are fine dancers, and it's too early
in the game to decree that they must become mediocre tango musicians.
This type of binary thinking (I hesitate to call it thinking) is really
becoming an epidemic, here and elsewhere. Either/or is for switchboards,
not the alert human mind.

Spatz
DC

Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 15:02:44 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainwashing
To: tango-L@mit.edu

Jake, THANK YOU!

Your post proves exactly the point! Ideas like yours are the ones
that demand a loud and clear voice like Neil's in defense of tango.

Once again, THANK YOU!

Nina


At 01:48 PM 11/28/2006, Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com) wrote:

>Bravo to Robert for spitting on the unfounded arguments recently put
>forward. I have only a few points to add...
>
>(1) If you're talking about community building as a spectator, you had
>better be getting your ass on the floor and giving people good dances.
>To cast aspersions on teachers, organizers, performers, or even DJs,
>without having first shut up and done your part to be a good community
>member, is poop.
>
>(2) This home-town crap (tango in BA, bop in NYC) is ludicrous. Tango
>and jazz both went abroad to find their first audiences and devotees on
>the world stage. Thanks be to the greater aesthetic sensibilities of
>Europe for that (and to the erstwhile cheap rents of Paris). Many of the
>great jazz musicians (like many in tango) lived in and on Europe. Only
>when these arts had risen to glory (and commercial promise) did their
>home countries accept them back, and make a big ruckus about national
>treasures, which is pure hogwash.
>
>(3) America isn't the country that came up with tango electronica, and
>it wasn't Americans living in Paris either. Also, there's more to the
>good stuff (as opposed to the crud) than a bass beat and a bandoneon,
>which should be readily apparent to anyone with a keen ear for music.
>
>(4) The "BA milonga experience," to the best of my knowledge, consists
>of overcrowded floors (which eliminate the possibility of dancing
>fantasia, which appears to have been a social form before it was taken
>to the stage in the rock n' roll era), of tourists aplenty, and of
>inexpensive but good quality beef in large, lean cuts. If anyone wants
>to introduce a good, cheap steak to the DC milongas, you have my full
>support.
>
>(5) Saying that everyone has to go to Buenos Aires is like saying
>everyone in BA has to go to La Viruta. Are these people in advertising?
>
>(6) There continue to be plenty of Argentine dancers living and teaching
>in Europe and the US. I wonder how much they want to re-create BA abroad.
>
>(7) I know plenty of musicians who are fine dancers, and it's too early
>in the game to decree that they must become mediocre tango musicians.
>This type of binary thinking (I hesitate to call it thinking) is really
>becoming an epidemic, here and elsewhere. Either/or is for switchboards,
>not the alert human mind.
>
>Spatz
>DC
>

Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:18:45 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainwashing
To: spatz@tangoDC.com
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com) wrote:

> Bravo to Robert for spitting on the unfounded arguments recently put
> forward. I have only a few points to add...
>
> (1) If you're talking about community building as a spectator, you had
> better be getting your ass on the floor and giving people good dances.
> To cast aspersions on teachers, organizers, performers, or even DJs,
> without having first shut up and done your part to be a good community
> member, is poop.
>

Nice strawman.

> (2) This home-town crap (tango in BA, bop in NYC) is ludicrous. Tango
> and jazz both went abroad to find their first audiences and devotees on
> the world stage. Thanks be to the greater aesthetic sensibilities of
> Europe for that (and to the erstwhile cheap rents of Paris). Many of the
> great jazz musicians (like many in tango) lived in and on Europe. Only
> when these arts had risen to glory (and commercial promise) did their
> home countries accept them back, and make a big ruckus about national
> treasures, which is pure hogwash.
>

Mmmm. Beg to differ here. They left when they had already
mastered their instrument and developed their style. Ben
Webster, Dexter Gordon, you name em. And they left for
more reasons than audiences and cheap rent.

> (3) America isn't the country that came up with tango electronica, and
> it wasn't Americans living in Paris either. Also, there's more to the
> good stuff (as opposed to the crud) than a bass beat and a bandoneon,
> which should be readily apparent to anyone with a keen ear for music.
>

There's not a lot of the good stuff and a lot of crud.

> (4) The "BA milonga experience," to the best of my knowledge, consists
> of overcrowded floors (which eliminate the possibility of dancing
> fantasia, which appears to have been a social form before it was taken
> to the stage in the rock n' roll era), of tourists aplenty, and of
> inexpensive but good quality beef in large, lean cuts. If anyone wants
> to introduce a good, cheap steak to the DC milongas, you have my full
> support.
>

I went in June, July and August. Few tourists, still crowded.
Even at 4 in the morning, none of the locals are dancing
fantasia. Not even Oscar Mandagaran.

Most milongas don't serve food. And the really cheap cuts
are pretty damned chewy and usually overcooked anyway.
But if you must indulge, I recommend vacio if you're being
cheap or try bife de ojo or bife de lomo if you have cash.
Avoid the costada.

> (5) Saying that everyone has to go to Buenos Aires is like saying
> everyone in BA has to go to La Viruta. Are these people in advertising?
>

La Viruta is a young person's place. I would tell people to
avoid that place like the plague.

> (6) There continue to be plenty of Argentine dancers living and teaching
> in Europe and the US. I wonder how much they want to re-create BA abroad.
>

They go abroad because they can't make a living teaching and
dancing in BA and that's all they know how to do. A starring
role at a nightly tango show pays like 800 pesos a month.
These people are doing it for love not money. If it was up to
them, they might never have left.

There are no more than 10 people dancing and teaching full
time in BA. The rest have day jobs.

The best teachers and dancers never leave. They're people
you never heard of. Do they never leave because they're the
best, or do they become the best because they didn't leave?

> (7) I know plenty of musicians who are fine dancers, and it's too early
> in the game to decree that they must become mediocre tango musicians.
> This type of binary thinking (I hesitate to call it thinking) is really
> becoming an epidemic, here and elsewhere. Either/or is for switchboards,
> not the alert human mind.
>

Fine is a Matter of Opinion. Excellence requires years of
*study*. I accept that you study tango, but even people
taking classes, if they don't practice what they get taught
aren't studying.

> Spatz
> DC
>
>