Community Expansion Brainstorming


4679 Community Expansion Brainstorming	ARTICLE INDEX
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 00:57:19 -0500 From: "Jacob Eggers" <eggers@brandeis.edu> Subject: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu> <dfa4cf020611272157o1128ea41oc349919180ad722c@mail.gmail.com> I have observed that musicians, people who migrated from other dance forms, and scientific types are all disproportionately represented in the US tango scene. So, focusing recruiting efforts on people from those areas seems like the most successful method to retain new tango dancers. Targeting each of these groups has special added benefits: Dancers already have many skills that'll transfer to tango, and they also might start recruiting their friends and students if they become tango addicts like the rest of us. Musicians might be inspired to start playing tango music, and if they also dance tango they might even start playing tango music that's danceable. Scientific types--well, I actually don't know of any benefit for recruiting them except maybe that they're generally more affluent and might inject some extra money into the tango community. One way to do recruit these people would be to give out free lesson coupons to people from those three groups. Drop the coupons off at the local salsa club, give them to street musicians, leave them in music stores, leave them at universities.... Since it would be extra effort to control the distribution of those coupons, I would suggest that passing coupons off to others is allowed. That doesn't seem like much of a risk since musicians are generally friends with musicians, dancers with dancers, ... These are just thoughts. I haven't tried any of them, but I would be curious if anyone has done something similar, or would be willing to do an experiment. Mainly, I'd just like to start a general discussion on tango marketing concepts. chau, j Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:48:44 +1100 From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu> <9fb1555a0611272348w44e360f4ge897baa38e5fa0a2@mail.gmail.com> In most tango communities outside of Argentina, great focus is often placed on growing the community. This goal seems to be one of universal appeal and as such, becomes something that occupies both the resources and attention of the community. However, you can grow a community on two ways: You can grow it larger or you can grow it into a better community with higher communal skill. Which one should it be? As I have an occupation that involves a great deal of international travel, I have been able to visit tango communities all over Europe, US and in the Asia Pacific. Among all these, the answer has always been to grow the number of attendees at local practicas and milongas. Little or no emphasis is placed on increasing the quality of the tango experience within the community. Now, when I use the term 'quality' (which of course is subjective), I mean an experience more like the one you will have at a milonga in Buenos Aires. When we speak about quality of a community, the gauge should be: How does this event compare to an event I could attend in Buenos Aires? Numerous factors go into this equation of quality: The venue, the layout of the floor and tables, the lighting, the DJ (meaning the material, how it is played, how the tandas are structured, type and length of cortina), line of dance, conduct of dancers, adherence to tango protocol, etc. The number of people attending and the dance skill level are just two small parts of the picture. Communities in the US seem to focus entirely on increasing the number of attendees at events while just paying lip service to the other elements. It is a great and admirable goal to create a large community where people can dance with each other, but if a community wants to drape itself with the term 'Argentine Tango', then at the very least one should expect that efforts are made to make the dance experience in that community as close as possible to the one you would have in Buenos Aires. If this is not the goal, then why call it 'Argentine'? Convenient interpretations of this word in order to make it 'fit' the local circumstances is, -quite honestly, disrespectful to the originators of this wonderful dance. If embracing the whole of tango, -and not just the dance steps, is somehow not deemed necessary, then the practitioners of this should call it 'American Tango' or something altogether different. Unfortunately, it is much easier to steal legitimacy for whatever it is that you are doing by borrowing established terminology and hoping that the people you seek to impress do not know the difference. The paragraph above may seem a bit off the subject, but it ties into the following: Before the decision as to how to best grow the community is taken, you first have to ask yourself; "What KIND of community do we want this to be?" Do we want to gather as many people as possible in one spot on a Friday night or do we accept the responsibility that comes with calling ourselves Argentine Tango dancers and work to recreate a bit of Buenos Aires right here in our own back yard? The latter does not seem to be the popular option. As a matter of fact, when engaging in proper tango protocol in Denver, one will most likely hear: "Oh, don't worry about it! You're not in Buenos Aires". Comments such as this point to a mentality where quantity, not quality is valued. This behavior is fueled by people who are uninitiated in tango, but nevertheless are billing themselves as teachers of Argentine Tango. The teachers in a community are the foremost proponent of habits, -good or bad. If teachers churn out large amounts of poorly educated students, does this serve the community? If a teacher is afraid of going to Buenos Aires because he thinks the floor is too crowded, what does this say about that teacher? If a teacher doesn't want to go to Buenos Aires because she says she can't get any dances, what does this say about that teacher? Is a 'teacher' who has never even been to a Buenos Aires milonga qualified to teach Argentine Tango? If we get more of these 'teachers' who in turn produces more people that dance like them, we will surely have a larger community, but do we have a better community? One could be tempted to say we would then have a 'diverse' body of people, but diversity is not really what we seek when we join a community that specializes in one single dance form from a very narrowly-defined geographical region. When looking at what motivates students, teachers and promoters in the US today, it becomes clear that unless special attention is given to growing BETTER communities, then this is as good as tango will ever be in the US. The larger a community grows, the less motivated people will be to seek out the roots and foundation of what it is they are dancing. (After all, with a large group, doing something incorrectly becomes easily justifiable by the fact that 'everybody else does it'). Less people will go to Buenos Aires to see how Argentine Tango is danced, and the result is that local communities develop entire sub-genres of the dance. -American Tango. This new dance will naturally draw heavily from the culture in which is was formed as as such will appeal to more of the local population. Voila! -We now have a large community. Growing a large dance community is easy: Give the dancers what they want. Give them something that is easy to learn but is presented as something spectacular and extraordinary. Also, low cover charge, cheap drinks and popular music are time-tested methods of drawing large crowds. Creating a good Argentine Tango community on the other hand, is far more complicated. It must fall upon the few knowledgeable teachers to not only teach steps and combinations, but to initiate the student into the world of tango. Non-profit organizations can make efforts to promote events that are as authentic as possible and support teachers that make an effort to teach in that same spirit. Growing large, or growing better? A community must first grow into the best community it can be before the focus shifts to becoming the largest it can be. After all, who wants to super-size an airline meal? Neil On 11/28/06, Jacob Eggers <eggers@brandeis.edu> wrote: > > I have observed that musicians, people who migrated from other dance > forms, > and scientific types are all disproportionately represented in the US > tango > scene. So, focusing recruiting efforts on people from those areas seems > like > the most successful method to retain new tango dancers. Targeting each of > these groups has special added benefits: > > Dancers already have many skills that'll transfer to tango, and they also > might start recruiting their friends and students if they become tango > addicts like the rest of us. > Musicians might be inspired to start playing tango music, and if they also > dance tango they might even start playing tango music that's danceable. > Scientific types--well, I actually don't know of any benefit for > recruiting > them except maybe that they're generally more affluent and might inject > some > extra money into the tango community. > > One way to do recruit these people would be to give out free lesson > coupons > to people from those three groups. Drop the coupons off at the local salsa > club, give them to street musicians, leave them in music stores, leave > them > at universities.... Since it would be extra effort to control the > distribution of those coupons, I would suggest that passing coupons off to > others is allowed. That doesn't seem like much of a risk since musicians > are > generally friends with musicians, dancers with dancers, ... > > These are just thoughts. I haven't tried any of them, but I would be > curious > if anyone has done something similar, or would be willing to do an > experiment. Mainly, I'd just like to start a general discussion on tango > marketing concepts. > > chau, > j > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:11:29 +0100 From: "Robert Armus" <rarmus@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu> I quit going to Tango because many of the people are too self-righteous for my taste. I am a professional musician and even play Tango sometimes, I live in Paris now and have lived and danced in Buenos Aires, Cordoba, NYC, Amsterdam,Vancouver and Toronto. I started dancing Tango 15 years ago. I hate this "in Buenos Aires they do it like this and that is the only way" BS. Hear me out, it's like saying if a musician in Sweden is trying to play Be-Bop, there is no way they will learn it unless they go to NYC, it's not true. Tango is an art form.... that means be creative ! Learn the rules, then break them ! Bird said "learn it then forget it and just play". Tango communities outside of Argentina are still developing, let them develop in there own way, who knows maybe a new style will begin [sarcasm]God forbid[/sarcasm]. Tango has become an international art form, just like Jazz. Tango began as a mix of cultures... let it continue as such. Can someone here define the word "quality" ? Astor Piazzolla was one of the most profound musician/composers of the 20th century and he called his music Tango but many dancers still think his music is not for dancing or not even Tango !?! Just because someone thinks they dance well or "authentic" Tango doesn't make them a superior human being, so why the superior attitude? I have more to say but will spare you the rant. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming > In most tango communities outside of Argentina, great focus is often > placed > on growing the community. This goal seems to be one of universal appeal > and > as such, becomes something that occupies both the resources and attention > of > the community. > > However, you can grow a community on two ways: You can grow it larger or > you > can grow it into a better community with higher communal skill. Which one > should it be? > As I have an occupation that involves a great deal of international > travel, > I have been able to visit tango communities all over Europe, US and in the > Asia Pacific. Among all these, the answer has always been to grow the > number > of attendees at local practicas and milongas. Little or no emphasis is > placed on increasing the quality of the tango experience within the > community. > > Now, when I use the term 'quality' (which of course is subjective), I mean > an experience more like the one you will have at a milonga in Buenos > Aires. > When we speak about quality of a community, the gauge should be: How does > this event compare to an event I could attend in Buenos Aires? Numerous > factors go into this equation of quality: The venue, the layout of the > floor > and tables, the lighting, the DJ (meaning the material, how it is played, > how the tandas are structured, type and length of cortina), line of dance, > conduct of dancers, adherence to tango protocol, etc. The number of people > attending and the dance skill level are just two small parts of the > picture. > Communities in the US seem to focus entirely on increasing the number of > attendees at events while just paying lip service to the other elements. > > It is a great and admirable goal to create a large community where people > can dance with each other, but if a community wants to drape itself with > the > term 'Argentine Tango', then at the very least one should expect that > efforts are made to make the dance experience in that community as close > as > possible to the one you would have in Buenos Aires. If this is not the > goal, > then why call it 'Argentine'? Convenient interpretations of this word in > order to make it 'fit' the local circumstances is, -quite honestly, > disrespectful to the originators of this wonderful dance. If embracing the > whole of tango, -and not just the dance steps, is somehow not deemed > necessary, then the practitioners of this should call it 'American Tango' > or > something altogether different. Unfortunately, it is much easier to steal > legitimacy for whatever it is that you are doing by borrowing established > terminology and hoping that the people you seek to impress do not know the > difference. > > The paragraph above may seem a bit off the subject, but it ties into the > following: Before the decision as to how to best grow the community is > taken, you first have to ask yourself; "What KIND of community do we want > this to be?" Do we want to gather as many people as possible in one spot > on > a Friday night or do we accept the responsibility that comes with calling > ourselves Argentine Tango dancers and work to recreate a bit of Buenos > Aires > right here in our own back yard? The latter does not seem to be the > popular > option. As a matter of fact, when engaging in proper tango protocol in > Denver, one will most likely hear: "Oh, don't worry about it! You're not > in > Buenos Aires". > > Comments such as this point to a mentality where quantity, not quality is > valued. This behavior is fueled by people who are uninitiated in tango, > but > nevertheless are billing themselves as teachers of Argentine Tango. The > teachers in a community are the foremost proponent of habits, -good or > bad. > If teachers churn out large amounts of poorly educated students, does this > serve the community? If a teacher is afraid of going to Buenos Aires > because > he thinks the floor is too crowded, what does this say about that teacher? > If a teacher doesn't want to go to Buenos Aires because she says she can't > get any dances, what does this say about that teacher? Is a 'teacher' who > has never even been to a Buenos Aires milonga qualified to teach Argentine > Tango? If we get more of these 'teachers' who in turn produces more people > that dance like them, we will surely have a larger community, but do we > have > a better community? One could be tempted to say we would then have a > 'diverse' body of people, but diversity is not really what we seek when we > join a community that specializes in one single dance form from a very > narrowly-defined geographical region. > > When looking at what motivates students, teachers and promoters in the US > today, it becomes clear that unless special attention is given to growing > BETTER communities, then this is as good as tango will ever be in the US. > The larger a community grows, the less motivated people will be to seek > out > the roots and foundation of what it is they are dancing. (After all, with > a > large group, doing something incorrectly becomes easily justifiable by the > fact that 'everybody else does it'). Less people will go to Buenos Aires > to > see how Argentine Tango is danced, and the result is that local > communities > develop entire sub-genres of the dance. -American Tango. This new dance > will > naturally draw heavily from the culture in which is was formed as as such > will appeal to more of the local population. Voila! -We now have a large > community. > > Growing a large dance community is easy: Give the dancers what they want. > Give them something that is easy to learn but is presented as something > spectacular and extraordinary. Also, low cover charge, cheap drinks and > popular music are time-tested methods of drawing large crowds. Creating a > good Argentine Tango community on the other hand, is far more complicated. > It must fall upon the few knowledgeable teachers to not only teach steps > and > combinations, but to initiate the student into the world of tango. > Non-profit organizations can make efforts to promote events that are as > authentic as possible and support teachers that make an effort to teach in > that same spirit. > > Growing large, or growing better? A community must first grow into the > best > community it can be before the focus shifts to becoming the largest it can > be. After all, who wants to super-size an airline meal? > > Neil > > > > > On 11/28/06, Jacob Eggers <eggers@brandeis.edu > <mailto:eggers@brandeis.edu>> wrote: >> >> I have observed that musicians, people who migrated from other dance >> forms, >> and scientific types are all disproportionately represented in the US >> tango >> scene. So, focusing recruiting efforts on people from those areas seems >> like >> the most successful method to retain new tango dancers. Targeting each of >> these groups has special added benefits: >> >> Dancers already have many skills that'll transfer to tango, and they also >> might start recruiting their friends and students if they become tango >> addicts like the rest of us. >> Musicians might be inspired to start playing tango music, and if they >> also >> dance tango they might even start playing tango music that's danceable. >> Scientific types--well, I actually don't know of any benefit for >> recruiting >> them except maybe that they're generally more affluent and might inject >> some >> extra money into the tango community. >> >> One way to do recruit these people would be to give out free lesson >> coupons >> to people from those three groups. Drop the coupons off at the local >> salsa >> club, give them to street musicians, leave them in music stores, leave >> them >> at universities.... Since it would be extra effort to control the >> distribution of those coupons, I would suggest that passing coupons off >> to >> others is allowed. That doesn't seem like much of a risk since musicians >> are >> generally friends with musicians, dancers with dancers, ... >> >> These are just thoughts. I haven't tried any of them, but I would be >> curious >> if anyone has done something similar, or would be willing to do an >> experiment. Mainly, I'd just like to start a general discussion on tango >> marketing concepts. >> >> chau, >> j >> > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:12:14 -0500 From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: tangotangotango@gmail.com, tango-l@mit.edu >From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com> >It is a great and admirable goal to create a large community where people >can dance with each other, but if a community wants to drape itself with >the >term 'Argentine Tango', then at the very least one should expect that >efforts are made to make the dance experience in that community as close as >possible to the one you would have in Buenos Aires. If this is not the >goal, >then why call it 'Argentine'? Convenient interpretations of this word in >order to make it 'fit' the local circumstances is, -quite honestly, >disrespectful to the originators of this wonderful dance. If embracing the >whole of tango, -and not just the dance steps, is somehow not deemed >necessary, then the practitioners of this should call it 'American Tango' >or >something altogether different. Unfortunately, it is much easier to steal >legitimacy for whatever it is that you are doing by borrowing established >terminology and hoping that the people you seek to impress do not know the >difference. > I could not agree with you more. I've noticed over the years that more and more people are purposefully changing the tango to suit their particular tastes or ideas of what tango should be. Too bad they reject what tango really is..... > >Comments such as this point to a mentality where quantity, not quality is >valued. This behavior is fueled by people who are uninitiated in tango, but >nevertheless are billing themselves as teachers of Argentine Tango. The >teachers in a community are the foremost proponent of habits, -good or bad. >If teachers churn out large amounts of poorly educated students, does this >serve the community? If a teacher is afraid of going to Buenos Aires >because >he thinks the floor is too crowded, what does this say about that teacher? >If a teacher doesn't want to go to Buenos Aires because she says she can't >get any dances, what does this say about that teacher? Is a 'teacher' who >has never even been to a Buenos Aires milonga qualified to teach Argentine >Tango? If we get more of these 'teachers' who in turn produces more people >that dance like them, we will surely have a larger community, but do we >have >a better community? One could be tempted to say we would then have a >'diverse' body of people, but diversity is not really what we seek when we >join a community that specializes in one single dance form from a very >narrowly-defined geographical region. > Lets face it, many people get into the "community building" business for purely selfish reasons. For instance, who has not seen the situation in a city which already has 3 or 4 teachers of tango, regular milongas and organized events and suddenly, out of nowhere (it seems) some recent arrival will decide "what we need here is a tango community".... The best way for these people to get more and more followers is usually to pander to the tastes and preconceived ideas of people. Not to instruct and promote the tango as it is... As you say, they don't know tango and if they do know it, they find it too alien or difficult, or too "constraining" of their artistic creativity... Thusly one ends up with the usual number of "agitated molecule" style of dancers performing all sorts of acrobatics or running all over the floor. Also, it's much easier to sell Gotan Project or Bajofondo to people more used to club music than to sell D'Agostino with Vargas. Also, it's much easier to perform pseudo-tango and affect knowledge if one sells and promotes one's own invention rather than to accept and respect the traditional tango. >When looking at what motivates students, teachers and promoters in the US >today, it becomes clear that unless special attention is given to growing >BETTER communities, then this is as good as tango will ever be in the US. >The larger a community grows, the less motivated people will be to seek out >the roots and foundation of what it is they are dancing. (After all, with a >large group, doing something incorrectly becomes easily justifiable by the >fact that 'everybody else does it'). Less people will go to Buenos Aires to >see how Argentine Tango is danced, and the result is that local communities >develop entire sub-genres of the dance. -American Tango. This new dance >will >naturally draw heavily from the culture in which is was formed as as such >will appeal to more of the local population. Voila! -We now have a large >community. > >Growing a large dance community is easy: Give the dancers what they want. >Give them something that is easy to learn but is presented as something >spectacular and extraordinary. Also, low cover charge, cheap drinks and >popular music are time-tested methods of drawing large crowds. Creating a >good Argentine Tango community on the other hand, is far more complicated. >It must fall upon the few knowledgeable teachers to not only teach steps >and >combinations, but to initiate the student into the world of tango. >Non-profit organizations can make efforts to promote events that are as >authentic as possible and support teachers that make an effort to teach in >that same spirit. > >Growing large, or growing better? A community must first grow into the best >community it can be before the focus shifts to becoming the largest it can >be. After all, who wants to super-size an airline meal? > >Neil You are right in much of what you say Neil. Growing a large community of pseudo-tango might be easier than growing a real tango scene, but much less satisfying for those who just want to enjoy Argentine tango as it is. Still, it would be nice to grow larger communities where the traditional tango would be respected, danced and enjoyed. Manuel > View Athletes Collections with Live Search https://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01 Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:08:22 -0600 From: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com> Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu> <cff24c340611280808x3e39755eo28ef79515124b04b@mail.gmail.com> Neil, For the most part, I share your sentiments, certainly as an ideal goal. However, practical issues often intervene and cause us to modify our goals. On 11/28/06, Tango Tango <tangotangotango@gmail.com> wrote: > In most tango communities outside of Argentina, great focus is often placed > on growing the community. This goal seems to be one of universal appeal and > as such, becomes something that occupies both the resources and attention of > the community. > > However, you can grow a community on two ways: You can grow it larger or you > can grow it into a better community with higher communal skill. Which one > should it be? Ideally, we would all like a large skilled tango community. In reality, we need to have a suffiicent number of dancers at milongas and in classes to generate dance energy and social energy. A gathering of 20 highly skilled dancers in even a small club does not have the energy of a milonga. An empty floor does not build navigational skills. Add 20 developing dancers and 20 beginners with at least some basic navigational skills, musicality, and a decent connection (assumes good teaching of basic skills), and we have some good ingredients for a milonga. Why we need to be tolerant of beginners and developing dancers: - They may be coming to tango for a social need but may find tango provides rewards of it own. - Todays' advanced dancers all started as beginners > Now, when I use the term 'quality' (which of course is subjective), I mean > an experience more like the one you will have at a milonga in Buenos Aires. ... > It is a great and admirable goal to create a large community where people > can dance with each other, but if a community wants to drape itself with the > term 'Argentine Tango', then at the very least one should expect that > efforts are made to make the dance experience in that community as close as > possible to the one you would have in Buenos Aires. If this is not the goal, > then why call it 'Argentine'? I will digress and ask that true devotees of the tango culture of Buenos Aires not call their tango 'Argentine' tango. (They don't talk about dancing 'tango argentino' in Buenos Aires.) My first encounter with this terminology was in a ballroom studio, where 'tango' was taught along with 'foxtrot', 'cha-cha', 'swing' et al., and there was a separate class called 'Argentine tango'. Hey, tango was born in Argentina! The tango taught with other ballroom dances is not the original (hardly resembles it at all. probably doesn't deserve to be called 'tango' - another issue). 'Tango' by definition, without modifiers, is what is danced in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Anything else that masquerades as 'tango' needs a modifier - American Ballroom Tango, International Ballroom Tango, Tango for Export and the like. [end of digression] > Convenient interpretations of this word in > order to make it 'fit' the local circumstances is, -quite honestly, > disrespectful to the originators of this wonderful dance. If embracing the > whole of tango, -and not just the dance steps, is somehow not deemed > necessary, then the practitioners of this should call it 'American Tango' or > something altogether different. Unfortunately, it is much easier to steal > legitimacy for whatever it is that you are doing by borrowing established > terminology and hoping that the people you seek to impress do not know the > difference. ... > As a matter of fact, when engaging in proper tango protocol in > Denver, one will most likely hear: "Oh, don't worry about it! You're not in > Buenos Aires". I'm not sure sure it is disrespectful as much as it is due to ignorance. Americans dance stage steps at milongas because the tango revival of the 80s and 90s was fueled by stage performers from Argentina who taught what they knew or, more specifically perhaps, what was requested. The first generation of homegrown American instructors were trained to teach a dumbed down version of tango fantasia. (8-count basic, the sandwich, ganchos, high boleos - rarely seen at Buenos Aires milongas) At least initially I believe this was an honest attempt to transmit the tango culture of Argentina to the US. Upon visiting Buenos Aires for the first time we experienced tango culture shock - they don't dance there like we do!! Only those who have been to Buenos Aires and come back and continue to sell fantasia (or the latest fad - 'nuevo') as social tango are being disrespectful to Argentine culture. Either that, or they believe "When in America, sell what America wants". America wants flashiness. Give Hollywood credit. Or maybe we Puritans just can't hold each other close and share each other's breath - way too threatening! One could even believe that cultural change occurs with the transmission of an art form from one culture to another and that change is legitimate in adapting to the local culture. Of course it is, but then it's name should change to reflect that (as you suggest). > Growing a large dance community is easy: Give the dancers what they want. > Give them something that is easy to learn but is presented as something > spectacular and extraordinary. Also, low cover charge, cheap drinks and > popular music are time-tested methods of drawing large crowds. Free events attract people who don't want to invest. The quality is as good as the price. You can attract a lot of people to tango if you offer something else instead. For example, tango events in a singles bar might attract a lot of people (even more if the event is free), but you will get a lot of people whose primary purpose is hooking up with the opposite sex, no connecting to tango. (Not that hooking up with the opposite sex is bad, but let's at least do it with good tango, as they do in Buenos Aires.) Oh, yes, offer them music they are familar with - electronica - add bandoneons and call it 'tango'. They will love it!! Maybe even gypsy music, new age, jazz, whatever. Tango is what you make it - 'American' tango, that is. You'll have to search far and wide among the 150+ milongas per week in Buenos Aires to find this. Of course, you can find it and claim legitimacy, but this is cultural diffusion in reverse, from America and elsewhere into Argentina. it has not evolved >from tango roots and Argentines know the difference. > Creating a > good Argentine Tango community on the other hand, is far more complicated. > It must fall upon the few knowledgeable teachers to not only teach steps and > combinations, but to initiate the student into the world of tango. Let's teach connection to partner and music, and steps only as navigational possibilities or interpretations of the music. Let's avoid combinations. I haven't seen that much in Buenos Aires. > Non-profit organizations can make efforts to promote events that are as > authentic as possible and support teachers that make an effort to teach in > that same spirit. Yes, that's good. Where profit is not the primary motive, numbers are not as important. A closing note on numbers. A growing tango community has a pyramidal skill structure - a lot of beginners, few at the top. Communities that ignore beginners do not produce tomorrow's experts. Some of these experts will develop slowly at first. Some who rise quickly up the pyramid today may take up skydiving to replace tango tomorrow. The key to building a strong skilled community is good instruction. Good instruction needs to be tolerant of slow learners. (As an instructor, I've found my best dancers are in their 40s, 50s, and 60s, many of whom learned slowly at first.) Anyway, good post, Neil. Ron Tango Society of Central Illinois Urbana IL https://www.centraltango.com Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 10:24:23 -0700 From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: tango-l@mit.edu format="flowed" I will reply to several messages in one. This is just for fun. I refuse to choose my words here and I spit my opinions without justifying any of them for this message. So here it goes: 1. The ranting gives away the cluelessness. To say, like Robert had said, "I hate this "in Buenos Aires they do it like this and that is the only way", one better had mastered the way they do it in BA or just be quiet because these words become nonsense. If you do not know the BA way, you have no clue what is the way, the only way, or some other way. But if you do know the BA way, then you would be quiet about all this naturally because your knowledge would not permit you to dimiss the BA way. 2. I know of only one musician who is an amazing tango dancer. The rest are fakes or struggling. Better stick to music. Trying to be both often creates mediocrity in both. 3. Piazzolla did not like dancers. He did not write for them. Great for musicians, bad for dancers. Piazzolla did not write tango. He did not want to. He fused classical music, tango and jazz. Musicians should know this. 4. Swedish musicians trying to play Be-Bop will not learn it even if they go to NYC. You have to live and breath the culture that produced the music and not just play the notes. If you did not get it with your mother's milk, you might just forget about it (unless you had a very International mother)! This applies to musicians only. Dancers transcend this problem. 5. Tango is an art form to some and a social dance to others. The context must be specified in the discussion. Otherwise, there is a danger of a big fight. 6. Ron said, "The first generation of homegrown American instructors were trained to teach a dumbed down version of tango fantasia. (8-count basic, the sandwich, ganchos, high boleos - rarely seen at Buenos Aires milongas)". NOT TRUE. The first generation of dancers in the US was taught by people like Pablo and Esther Pugliese and Daniel Trenner and the emphasis was on walking in various systems. Basic elements were intoduced so that people could practice movement and dance socially. Pablo and Esther intensely focused on the quality of the embrace. Daniel emphasized the relational aspects of the dance between partners and focused on intense connection. Dancers spent hours, HOURS, doing nothing but connection in movement work. He stressed and promoted the "authentic" way. He encouraged people to go to BsAs and experience it for themselves. This was the EXPERIENTIAL learning - something you cannot do outsied of Argentina. Daniel told stories of famous old dancers in BsAs and taught people to respect what they had brought and created in tango. The first generation of dancers knew what each one of those old dancers had brought to tango that was unique and was that person's mark on the dance. Each one had something special, like his own salida. This was just like the famous orchestras, where each one had their own unique ending. The steps came later with the next generations of dancers and confusion and chaos descended like a dark cloud. I will put something more substantial in another e-mail because the issue of quality has many aspects to it. Kindest regards to all, Nina Quoting Robert Armus <rarmus@hotmail.com>: > I quit going to Tango because many of the people are too self-righteous for > my taste. I am a professional musician and even play Tango sometimes, I live > in Paris now and have lived and danced in Buenos Aires, Cordoba, NYC, > Amsterdam,Vancouver and Toronto. I started dancing Tango 15 years ago. > > I hate this "in Buenos Aires they do it like this and that is the only way" > BS. Hear me out, it's like saying if a musician in Sweden is trying to play > Be-Bop, there is no way they will learn it unless they go to NYC, it's not > true. Tango is an art form.... that means be creative ! Learn the rules, > then break them ! Bird said "learn it then forget it and just play". > > Tango communities outside of Argentina are still developing, let them > develop in there own way, who knows maybe a new style will begin > [sarcasm]God forbid[/sarcasm]. Tango has become an international art form, > just like Jazz. Tango began as a mix of cultures... let it continue as such. > > Can someone here define the word "quality" ? > > Astor Piazzolla was one of the most profound musician/composers of the 20th > century and he called his music Tango but many dancers still think his music > is not for dancing or not even Tango !?! > > Just because someone thinks they dance well or "authentic" Tango doesn't > make them a superior human being, so why the superior attitude? > > I have more to say but will spare you the rant. > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:52:43 +0000 From: "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: tango-l@mit.edu ----Original Message Follows---- Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:52:09 -1200 From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu> Cc: tangomaniac@cavtel.net Reading (in some cases skimming) messages on this topic remind me of high school. What does it take to have a good school. Good administrators, good teachers and good students. I'm just going to concentrate on the students. Some people who go to school are pupils. They just show up and make minimal attempts to learn or have no desire to learn. Their goal is just to pass the tests. Other people are students in the correct use of the word. They actually study. Study includes reading textbooks, completing homework, and engaging in dialogue in class. It's NO different in tango. Some dancers take classes soley to memorize a series of steps. These are the pupils. Then there are others who actually study, as in when I lead X, the woman does X. If she did Y, the first question is what was wrong with the lead. (I've had too many situations where the woman did EXACTLY what I lead, even though it wasn't what I INTENDED. There's a big difference between the two.) The dancers in the community will determine the quality of the community. Steps vs. Understanding. I remember very well when Lucianna Valle came to Washington, DC. Her workshop was called "How to make your dancing beautiful." She said at the beginning of the workshop "Take lessons for 10 years, study very hard, and call me in 10 years. S**, I'm a dance teacher, NOT GOD!" Some people had a look of absolute shock on their face. Others didn't have a clue what she was talking about. Some just nodded in understanding. Daniel Trenner said at Tango Locura in Montreal in 1999(?) "To learn how to dance tango, you have to learn how to dance. To learn how to dance, you have to learn how to move. But some people try to learn how to dance tango without going through dance." My private teacher told me that learning how to dance is like building a house. You need a solid foundation. Dancers decide for themselves how good they want to be. It ranges from "just show me something, anything so I can get out on the floor" to "teach me so I understand tango." Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC It still feels like fall. Going to NY next weekend to celebrate my birthday I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:36:40 -0800 From: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: "Robert Armus" <rarmus@hotmail.com>, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu> <<Astor Piazzolla was one of the most profound musician/composers of the 20th century and he called his music Tango >>> No. He called it "Musica de Buenos Aires"and he would say it was in the ears, not the feet. Further, he disliked dancers and several times expressed his desire for his music NOT to be danced. Yet, very often we hear of bold neophites completely unfamiliar with Tango and Tango culture announce " A tribute to Astor Piazolla" with show dancing to "Adios Nonino", "Libertango,"etc. How can you homage someone by ignoring his wishes...is beyond my comprehension...pero que le vas a hacer!! <<but many dancers still think his music is not for dancing or not even Tango !?!>> Astor would have agreed with them... Gabriel Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 23:12:26 -0800 From: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: "Robert Armus" <rarmus@hotmail.com>, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu> <<If a teacher is afraid of going to Buenos Aires > because > he thinks the floor is too crowded, what does this say about that > teacher?>> Afraid?..I do not know...But some do not care for Buenos Aires because they do not buy into the notion that Tango is meant to be danced with a squarre foot available per couple. Rather they blame those crowded conditions on greedy organizers who want to have 500 people in places that are safely meant for 100, instead of simply raising the cover charge a bit. We all understand that Tango is a social dance mostly to be danced closely and that we should observe navigational rules and objectives but when is the amount of people simply too many people? At some point, closeness and navigational skills must become irrelevant, don't you think? > If a teacher doesn't want to go to Buenos Aires because she says she can't > get any dances, what does this say about that teacher? That she has realized that Milongas are more social than dancing and that Porte?os very often could not care less about dancing skills(which most often they do not themselves posess). They go after the pretty ones, the more ignorant about Tango the better and money is a plus. <<Is a 'teacher' who > has never even been to a Buenos Aires milonga qualified to teach Argentine > Tango>> Are you kidding???.... Is a chef who has never dined out in Milan qualified to discuss Northern Italian Cuisine? Gabriel Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:31:27 -0600 From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@tangobar-productions.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu> On one of his two appearances in San Francisco, Piazzolla gave a lecture that Al and I went to. He said specifically that his music was not for dancing. He did not say it was not tango. He did not reconcile this statement with "Maria de Buenos Aires" or other music he wrote for tango dancers. He did like to "epater la bourgeoisie" as well as being clearly not interested in tango-dance. Many of the folks on this List seem to equate Tango (capital T) with tango-dance exclusively; in fact tango music, in its non-usually-danced-to variations as well as bailable, has an enormously greater appreciation base than tango-dance. I am one of the fuddy-duddies who think that tango is best danced to tango music of the bailable type, which doesn't exclude appreciation of non-dance oriented tango music from Gardel to Piazzolla, electronic, whatever, depending on musical quality. As some make distinctions between Pugliese (early, middle, late??) and D'Arienzo, there are, as well, many degrees of danceablity, as there are many styles of dance, from strict club rythm to salon to fantasia to ballet or contemporary dance form. Tom's comparison to jazz, some written for dancing, some for listening, is right-on, of course. Barbara Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:00:54 -0500 From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: rarmus@hotmail.com, tango-l@mit.edu >From: "Robert Armus" <rarmus@hotmail.com> >To: <tango-l@mit.edu> >Piazzolla was hurt by traditionalists and dancers whom for some reason >dis-credit him from Tango. If you had any idea about club style tango dancing, you'd know the reason why dancers dislike Piazzolla's music for dancing...... Manuel Oh yeah, I also love dulce de leche and find the later Troilo music quite undanceable in my favorite style. All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial! https://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=https://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=https://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail">www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail">https://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=https://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=https://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:22:00 -0500 (EST) From: tango@bostonphotographs.com Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming Before I started tango, I didn't know it's being danced socially. I didn't know anything about it. 95% of the non-tango people I spoke with are in the same boat. I think PUBLIC regular events that are done in high traffic areas where people can see social tango in action would attract more people for the right reasons (as opposed to people taking lessons because the "tango" they've seen in "Dancing with the stars" appeals to them). Even the "Guerilla Milogas" like the one Jacob organized should help. The "Moonlight tango" in Cambridge is one example, but there are only 4 or 5 of these every year and because of the horrible surface, not many expecienced dancers attend. I think it would be awesome if we could establish a weekly event outdoors, like there are in other cities. Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:56:29 -0800 (PST) From: DayLightPix <daylightpix@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: tango-l@mit.edu Boston DOES have outdoor milonga with danceable surface. This summer was the first time we had it. It was a blast. https://www.tangolounge.org/tangointhepark.html We only had three outdoor milongas in 2006 because I was away for most of the summer. We are planning to have it as a regular event in 2007 and beyond. David Liu Boston tangolounge.org --- tango@bostonphotographs.com wrote: > Before I started tango, I didn't know it's being > danced socially. I didn't > know anything about it. 95% of the non-tango people > I spoke with are in > the same boat. > > I think PUBLIC regular events that are done in high > traffic areas where > people can see social tango in action would attract > more people for the > right reasons (as opposed to people taking lessons > because the > "tango" they've seen in "Dancing with > the stars" > appeals to them). Even the "Guerilla > Milogas" like the one Jacob > organized should help. > > The "Moonlight tango" in Cambridge is one > example, but there are > only 4 or 5 of these every year and because of the > horrible surface, not > many expecienced dancers attend. I think it would be > awesome if we could > establish a weekly event outdoors, like there are in > other cities. > > > > Cheap talk? Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 11:22:20 -0300 From: "Janis Kenyon" <Jantango@feedback.net.ar> Subject: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: "Tango-L" <Tango-L@MIT.EDU> Manuel wrote: <You are right in much of what you say Neil. Growing a large community of pseudo-tango might be easier than growing a real tango scene, but much less satisfying for those who just want to enjoy Argentine tango as it is. Still, it would be nice to grow larger communities where the traditional tango would be respected, danced and enjoyed.> Traditional tango dancing isn't respected today by many Argentine teachers, so how can foreign countries assume the responsibility? Ron Weigel wrote: <A gathering of 20 highly skilled dancers in even a small club does not have the energy of a milonga. An empty floor does not build navigational skills. Add 20 developing dancers and 20 beginners with at least some basic navigational skills, musicality, and a decent connection (assumes good teaching of basic skills), and we have some good ingredients for a milonga.> I would rather be dancing where there are 20 highly skilled dancers (Lo de Celia in the afternoon) than on a crowded floor like Nino Bien on a Thursday night that is 50% or more tourists. The milongueros make it a milonga, not the collective energy of the dancers. Essential ingredients for a milonga begin with a good floor, sound system and a DJ who knows how to program the right music. Then add dancers, stir gently and see how it turns out. I find it amusing when people write me prior to their visit to Buenos Aires and categorize themselves as advanced-beginner, intermediate or even advanced dancers when they have no more than five years of tango experience. I watched one of these men recently who claimed he was an advanced dancer of tango. He couldn't walk. They are humbled when they take a private with a milonguero and see how they have a lot more to learn. Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:49:24 -0700 From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming At 07:22 AM 12/2/2006, Janis Kenyon wrote: >I would rather be dancing where there are 20 highly skilled dancers (Lo de >Celia in the afternoon) than on a crowded floor like Nino Bien on a Thursday >night that is 50% or more tourists. Agreed and not agreed, but it is really a personal choice. Skilled dancers are not everything. I can sit for hours, enjoying the music and the people, get up once for an tanda of what to me is an amazing dance experience with a very special dancer (who does not have to be old or Argentine), and then leave feeling that the milonga was worth it. >The milongueros make it a milonga, not >the collective energy of the dancers. This I disagree with. This says that we will no longer have milongas when all the milongueros are gone. New people do not qualify for a term milonguero because they have jobs and lead lives that are focused on other things than passing all of their free time at the milongas. >Essential ingredients for a milonga begin with a good floor, sound system >and a DJ who knows how to program the right music. Then add dancers, stir >gently and see how it turns out. This I disagree with. I believe that the essential ingredient is the VALUES of the people who are present at the milongas. This includes the DJ, the organizer and the dancers. When the system of values between the local dancers and the visitors is vastly different, those who are in greater numbers set the tone of the milonga. I believe that the value systems of Argentine people who dance tango, and I stress "Argentines, who dance tango", and the value systems of North Americans and Europeans are not only different, but often divergent. The tourists come to Buenos Aires for a limited amount of time. They often feel pressured to dance, dance! in order to make the trip worth the effort. This brings anxiety to any event where people who value quantity of dancing are present in great numbers. Personally, I prefer one gorgeous tanda to an evening of mediocre dance and personal experiences. But I dance for almost 12 years and I work in dance professionally, so I feel quite jaded. Beginner dancers need quantity. They need a safe place where they can acquire mileage on their legs and movement. I think that it is also a system of values that effects the issue of communities outside of Argentina being over-focused on growing the size of the community and attracting new people vs. focusing on quality of the dancers. I think that Neil was right when he wrote that the focus on quality is almost non-existent and that people do not try to model their events on the milongas of Buenos Aires. I thought long and hard about this because I have been involved in building a tango community here for almost 11 years. When we were beginning to dance, there was nothing outside of Argentina with an exception of Berlin and maybe a handful of other tango communities around the world. There was nothing in the United States other that the Stanford Tango Week (Thank you, Richard Powers!). Daniel Trenner began to bring tango to different parts of the United States. He truly is the Pied Piper of tango! He brought the dance and the stories. He was originally interested in contact improv, and so the improvisational nature of tango captivated him and he focused on the intense connection that the dance required. People who became captivated by the dance at that time, all wanted to go to Buenos Aires. The milongas of Buenos Aires were an enchanted, magical world. People were hit in their emotions and sensitivities. Those who went to Buenos Aires at that time, came back transformed. We were not the people we were before. I do not believe that this happens now at such a high rate. Back then, the milongas of Buenos Aires had no foreigners. Those of us who danced tango were freaks by all "normal" standards. So when we came to the milongas, we were in a great minority and had no trouble getting lost in the crowd. We saw pure Argentine milongas, that is without the influence of attending foreigners. Tango tourists have changed the feel of the milongas. When there are 50%+ of foreigners in a place like La Ideal or Nino Bien (which I still remember being almost entirely attended by Argentines only many years ago), those people who want to learn about what milongas are like in Buenos Aires will get a distorted picture. I do not believe that events outside of Buenos Aires should be modeled on the events in Buenos Aires that have a high number of foreigners in attendance. Instead, they can find milongas that have almost no foreigners and see what they are like. On another note, if people refuse to embrace the values of the people who created the dance originally, then they will not be able to bring or create that particular quality in both dance and event organizing. People must be able to embrace EMOTIONALLY the values of the culture that created the dance and the music. It would be very interesting to ask an organizer of some very traditional, "non-foreign" milonga in Buenos Aires what he/she is focusing on and trying to achieve. The relationship between men and women is quite different in Argentina than, say, in the United States. This also may add to the difference in the values placed on the dance experience, but this topic is for another discussion. Neil advocated for a shift in values from quantity to quality and he even proposed how this can be done. To that, I would like to add that the knowledge of the people who have been dancing and traveling to Buenos Aires for over a decade is very valuable for that shift and should be shared. When communities are new, the beginner dancers resemble children. They take. They take and they need a lot. Tango is an emotional experience that requires great sensitivities from its practitioners. New dancers need a lot of care and protection. It becomes a part of the responsibility of the teachers to offer them those skills in addition to movement. This is where the codes of behavior become handy. They help to protect the feelings. Beginner dancers to not bring quality. Instead, they need a lot of care. All dance, including tango, is a living art. It is passed >from person to person. It cannot be learned from videos or books. As such, those people who hand the dance to the beginners have a huge responsibility to guide them and help them grow in their own unique way. So Neil is right. The quality of the teachers becomes essential to growing communities that can cultivate not more dancers, but better dancers. There are teachers who sell out for status. There are also dancers who are unable to feel, unable to connect, and so their only refuse is movement. Those who hold the dance sacred keep its flame as they discovered it. The new dancers who want that flame reject fake teachers and seek those who can offer them what they need the most in the continuum of their development. But at the end, it all shakes out. I believe that there is hope in shifting the focus from quantity to quality, as long as those who believe in quality do not give up. Warmest regards to every one of you, Nina Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 14:44:12 -0500 From: Robin Tara <rtara@maine.rr.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming Nina, You took the words right out of my mouth. Thanks. Robin Tara > From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> > Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:49:24 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming > > At 07:22 AM 12/2/2006, Janis Kenyon wrote: > >> I would rather be dancing where there are 20 highly skilled dancers (Lo de >> Celia in the afternoon) than on a crowded floor like Nino Bien on a Thursday >> night that is 50% or more tourists. > > Agreed and not agreed, but it is really a personal choice. Skilled > dancers are not everything. I can sit for hours, enjoying the music > and the people, get up once for an tanda of what to me is an amazing > dance experience with a very special dancer (who does not have to be > old or Argentine), and then leave feeling that the milonga was worth it. > > >> The milongueros make it a milonga, not >> the collective energy of the dancers. > > This I disagree with. This says that we will no longer have milongas > when all the milongueros are gone. New people do not qualify for a > term milonguero because they have jobs and lead lives that are > focused on other things than passing all of their free time at the milongas. > >> Essential ingredients for a milonga begin with a good floor, sound system >> and a DJ who knows how to program the right music. Then add dancers, stir >> gently and see how it turns out. > > This I disagree with. I believe that the essential ingredient is the > VALUES of the people who are present at the milongas. This includes > the DJ, the organizer and the dancers. > > When the system of values between the local dancers and the visitors > is vastly different, those who are in greater numbers set the tone of > the milonga. I believe that the value systems of Argentine people > who dance tango, and I stress "Argentines, who dance tango", and the > value systems of North Americans and Europeans are not only > different, but often divergent. > > The tourists come to Buenos Aires for a limited amount of time. They > often feel pressured to dance, dance! in order to make the trip worth > the effort. This brings anxiety to any event where people who value > quantity of dancing are present in great numbers. > > Personally, I prefer one gorgeous tanda to an evening of mediocre > dance and personal experiences. But I dance for almost 12 years and > I work in dance professionally, so I feel quite jaded. Beginner > dancers need quantity. They need a safe place where they can acquire > mileage on their legs and movement. > > I think that it is also a system of values that effects the issue of > communities outside of Argentina being over-focused on growing the > size of the community and attracting new people vs. focusing on > quality of the dancers. > > I think that Neil was right when he wrote that the focus on quality > is almost non-existent and that people do not try to model their > events on the milongas of Buenos Aires. I thought long and hard > about this because I have been involved in building a tango community > here for almost 11 years. > > When we were beginning to dance, there was nothing outside of > Argentina with an exception of Berlin and maybe a handful of other > tango communities around the world. There was nothing in the United > States other that the Stanford Tango Week (Thank you, Richard > Powers!). Daniel Trenner began to bring tango to different parts of > the United States. He truly is the Pied Piper of tango! He brought > the dance and the stories. He was originally interested in contact > improv, and so the improvisational nature of tango captivated him and > he focused on the intense connection that the dance required. > > People who became captivated by the dance at that time, all wanted to > go to Buenos Aires. The milongas of Buenos Aires were an enchanted, > magical world. People were hit in their emotions and > sensitivities. Those who went to Buenos Aires at that time, came > back transformed. We were not the people we were before. > > I do not believe that this happens now at such a high rate. Back > then, the milongas of Buenos Aires had no foreigners. Those of us > who danced tango were freaks by all "normal" standards. So when we > came to the milongas, we were in a great minority and had no trouble > getting lost in the crowd. > > We saw pure Argentine milongas, that is without the influence of > attending foreigners. Tango tourists have changed the feel of the > milongas. When there are 50%+ of foreigners in a place like La Ideal > or Nino Bien (which I still remember being almost entirely attended > by Argentines only many years ago), those people who want to learn > about what milongas are like in Buenos Aires will get a distorted picture. > > I do not believe that events outside of Buenos Aires should be > modeled on the events in Buenos Aires that have a high number of > foreigners in attendance. Instead, they can find milongas that have > almost no foreigners and see what they are like. > > On another note, if people refuse to embrace the values of the people > who created the dance originally, then they will not be able to bring > or create that particular quality in both dance and event organizing. > > People must be able to embrace EMOTIONALLY the values of the culture > that created the dance and the music. > > It would be very interesting to ask an organizer of some very > traditional, "non-foreign" milonga in Buenos Aires what he/she is > focusing on and trying to achieve. The relationship between men and > women is quite different in Argentina than, say, in the United > States. This also may add to the difference in the values placed on > the dance experience, but this topic is for another discussion. > > Neil advocated for a shift in values from quantity to quality and he > even proposed how this can be done. To that, I would like to add > that the knowledge of the people who have been dancing and traveling > to Buenos Aires for over a decade is very valuable for that shift and > should be shared. > > When communities are new, the beginner dancers resemble > children. They take. They take and they need a lot. Tango is an > emotional experience that requires great sensitivities from its > practitioners. New dancers need a lot of care and protection. It > becomes a part of the responsibility of the teachers to offer them > those skills in addition to movement. This is where the codes of > behavior become handy. They help to protect the feelings. > > Beginner dancers to not bring quality. Instead, they need a lot of > care. All dance, including tango, is a living art. It is passed > from person to person. It cannot be learned from videos or > books. As such, those people who hand the dance to the beginners > have a huge responsibility to guide them and help them grow in their > own unique way. > > So Neil is right. The quality of the teachers becomes essential to > growing communities that can cultivate not more dancers, but better > dancers. There are teachers who sell out for status. There are also > dancers who are unable to feel, unable to connect, and so their only > refuse is movement. Those who hold the dance sacred keep its flame > as they discovered it. The new dancers who want that flame reject > fake teachers and seek those who can offer them what they need the > most in the continuum of their development. But at the end, it all shakes > out. > > I believe that there is hope in shifting the focus from quantity to > quality, as long as those who believe in quality do not give up. > > Warmest regards to every one of you, > > Nina > > > > Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 15:50:11 -0500 From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming >From: "Janis Kenyon" <Jantango@feedback.net.ar> > >Traditional tango dancing isn't respected today by many Argentine teachers, >so how can foreign countries assume the responsibility? > You are right about the disdain for traditional tango dancing by some Argentine teachers. However, that does not absolve the people in the US or other countries of their responsability to respect and preserve the tango dance, music and traditions. Personally, I find it very easy to explain, teach and assert the value of the traditional tango dance to tango music and I do so at every opportunity I have. The problem is that some people in the US and Europe have huge cultural and social arrogance coupled with ignorance. These people justify and promote their agenda of tango destruction and it's supplantment by their own creations. Maybe they are being aided and abetted by some Argentinean teachers or professional dancers, but in reality they operate out of their own volition. Many of these tango supplanters have gone to BAires, often several times and still debase the traditonal tango. One would assume that they had plenty of opportunity to see and learn about what tango is in it's birthplace. Personally, I think these people reject the traditional tango and for whatever reasons, they take the tango name and apply it to their creations. In a way, I understand their position. It's not easy to really get* the tango. It's really something that has very deep cultural, ethnic and language roots. The tango is very alien to these people. They do not understand the sentiments of the songs, the poetry in the lyrics or the culture and time they represent. It's much easier to learn and collect fancy steps and perform them with some more familiar music as a background. Electronic music, remixes with a bandoneon added or even totally alien music with a catchy tune or beat are easier to take than old scratchy, sentimental tangos in an incomprehensible language, which demand adherence to the rhythm in order to dance. There are people in the US and other places who love and respect the traditional, authentic tango. They do all they can to preserve and foment its propagation, but they find themselves at odds with the non-tango "tango" aficionados. There's only so much that can be done and said to educate these folks without alienating them completely. Once this takes place, the pseudo tango takes on a live of its own and the tango community becomes a confused mass of people who don't know what to believe. This promotes the growth of more pseudo tango teachers and organizers and the vicious cycle continues. Manuel MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 15:54:15 -0600 From: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Community Expansion Brainstorming To: "Janis Kenyon" <Jantango@feedback.net.ar> Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu> <cff24c340612021354x13537498jceec06164f843f18@mail.gmail.com> > > Ron Weigel wrote: > <A gathering > of 20 highly skilled dancers in even a small club does not have the > energy of a milonga. An empty floor does not build navigational > skills. Add 20 developing dancers and 20 beginners with at least some > basic navigational skills, musicality, and a decent connection > (assumes good teaching of basic skills), and we have some good > ingredients for a milonga.> On 12/2/06, Janis Kenyon <Jantango@feedback.net.ar> wrote: > > I would rather be dancing where there are 20 highly skilled dancers (Lo de > Celia in the afternoon) than on a crowded floor like Nino Bien on a Thursday > night that is 50% or more tourists. I can understand that. I might also prefer dancing at a milonga with 20 highly skilled dancers only than with those same dancers plus 20 intermediates and 20 beginners. However, the topic here was community expansion. Unless a community has room for beginners, it will not grow. It would be nice to be able to recruit advanced dancers who had never danced tango before, but I don't think they exist. (:->) Every advanced dancer starts as a beginner. ... Yes, yes, beginners should go to practicas first, but I'd like to know if there is any tango community outside Argentina than has that structure. To legislate that in the US would make one appear snobbish, a bad reputation to have when recruiting to a community. > The milongueros make it a milonga, not > the collective energy of the dancers. To some degree. A milonga with 40 or 60 good dancers has more energy and is a more enjoyable milonga that a milonga with 20 good dancers. When I was in Buenos Aires this past May, I went to a Tuesday afternoon milonga at Plaza Bohemia where there were only about 25-30 people, almost all very good dancers, and the DJ was absolutely fantastic. I enjoyed it, but it would have been more enjoyable with twice as many people with the same skill level. Lo de Celia on Sunday has that (and more) and that's what makes it such a great milonga. There were a few dancers with limited skills at Lo de Celia, but for the most part they stayed in the center of the floor and didn't bother the flow much. Ron Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 21:12:44 -0800 From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com> Subject: [Tango-L] Brainstorming To: <tango-l@mit.edu> Ok, I am coming back, since all you the way you are are a part of my community. There is a method of collective thinking called Brainstorming. It is when ideas are spontaneously generated and thought about. The rule number one in this way to invent something good and useful is: NO CRITIC !!! Absolutely forbidden. Critic kills freedom of creativity and imagination. At least in this method. I can elaborate more about it, but it is pretty much enough for now. So far, I can count only two original ideas about tango dancing: "Musician - violin" relationship, ( actually my idea was: "any dancer is a musical instrument", but let us simplify it ). And "Painter - brush" relationship, Offered if I am not mistaken by "Tango For Her" Forgive me if I missed something. The notion of "men and woman have equal rights" is the very fundamental, which no one questions, but it is too trivial. We all know about it ( and, frankly, it does not cover all aspects of tango dancing ) For especially angry ladies I can offer another one: "A singer and his voice". So, what would you say? Igor Polk Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 02:25:36 -0700 From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Brainstorming Ok Igor: I am going to give some suggestions since you have asked and have put this out to the Tango community as a whole. I am talking to you directly and the suggestions I am making are to you directly, if they help others then we together have done a service to this community. Because what you want from this dance does not fall into the either - or/ right or wrong category. What you are asking for in your questions. Is for your dance, your own dance. The way you have been asking the questions is that you want the answers (with in the context of argentine tango), the answers handed to you on a silver platter, with a gold gilded place card saying here is where to find the Cotillion dance you so long for, your fantasies manifest just so, in the way you want them. You know Igor, I would become bored in about 5 min. Because; this is not who I am. I want my tango messy, real, visceral, not safe, not PC, here and now, with a follow, in my embrace, in this world!!! What I create out of this cacophony is elegance, refinement, subtlety, and a respectful go to bloody hell, and that I dance well a follow in bliss who is sharing this beautiful energy and experience with me (I could continue). Because; this is who I am. You have asked for some answers and there have been many at your expense. I have walked in your shoes and have a soft spot in my heart for where you communicate you are. I will pass this on only once. Not only for you to listen, but a few others to whom this may resonate. Sunshine (Igor), this is what you need to do. STOP TAKING LESSONS!!! AND STOP SOCIAL DANCING FOR THREE MONTHS!!! Do not ask or answer one question from this list during this time also. Get up in the morning and walk in around your home. Practice in the line at the bank, grocery store, in elevators (and while waiting), where you work, on the street corners, and while waiting for the light to change. In your frustration, hatred, anger, fear, happiness, joy, while in loneliness and in love, and grumbling under your breath or out loud while telling me to go to hell. Practice in the evening, walking, pauses, and rondes. Because of where you are: what you ask from tango is exactly what you will get back and right now what your getting is intellectual minutia going round and round like a calliope. You have a lot of potential I would like to see you express your potential. But you must take the step into a world you can never figure out by thinking about it. Thinking about it is for a different porpoise. If you want to prove me wrong and tell me to go to hell. Good. Cause the critic you talk about is the one with in your self. Right now it looks like many are tossing lawn darts in your direction while you're spinning around on the calliope. What I teach is not patterns, is not connection, is not conversation. They are a part of what I teach. This is stepping into the dance with what you have at this moment, and what you have to share at this time. With the person in your embrace. For both Lead and Follow. Because this is the path I choose and an honest expression of who I am. Igor: It also does not mean I impose this view upon someone else for who Tango is a nice simple social dance and nothing more. I teach and share with them also, what they ask. This is who they are that that moment in time. Igor: You want answers to the questions you ask. You do this just like it has always been done. Here is a door way. Step through it baby, or do not. It is your choice. Other than that, I am sure there are a few more lawn darts out there with your name on them. I wish you the best and hope you find your way. Because what I would like to see in your dance IS MORE BLOODY COWBELL !!! For everyone else, thank you for a moment of your patience in this email. Now back to the conversation at hand "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" David Hodgson. (PS: Was wondering if I would get the cowbell in there). -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 10:13 PM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: [Tango-L] Brainstorming Ok, I am coming back, since all you the way you are are a part of my community. There is a method of collective thinking called Brainstorming. It is when ideas are spontaneously generated and thought about. The rule number one in this way to invent something good and useful is: NO CRITIC !!! Absolutely forbidden. Critic kills freedom of creativity and imagination. At least in this method. I can elaborate more about it, but it is pretty much enough for now. So far, I can count only two original ideas about tango dancing: "Musician - violin" relationship, ( actually my idea was: "any dancer is a musical instrument", but let us simplify it ). And "Painter - brush" relationship, Offered if I am not mistaken by "Tango For Her" Forgive me if I missed something. The notion of "men and woman have equal rights" is the very fundamental, which no one questions, but it is too trivial. We all know about it ( and, frankly, it does not cover all aspects of tango dancing ) For especially angry ladies I can offer another one: "A singer and his voice". So, what would you say? Igor Polk No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.6/1193 - Release Date: 12/22/2007 2:02 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.6/1193 - Release Date: 12/22/2007 2:02 PM Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 13:07:56 -0500 From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Brainstorming To: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu> Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> Igor: Brainstorming applies to a group working on a common goal, such as an assignment at the office. It doesn't apply to Tango L. For some, it's to impress; for others, to share information. Those looking for answers to all their tango questions should stop because they won't find them here. This is a bulletin board to share information. Even if the answers were posted, it doesn't mean they would be understood. I learned the hard way that understanding and dancing tango well requires maturity and patience. I had NEITHER when I started. My teacher, Joe, would tell me about the wonders of close embrace and I'd say "HUH????" I remember one lesson he said "I can go the whole night without a gancho." That amazed me. (As a sidebar, ganchos seem to have fallen out of favor because I don't see many anymore.) I lament I didn't start tango earlier, but then, I wasn't ready for tango. I had to wait for the right moment to start. I remember the old TV program Kung Fu that starred David Carradine. He was a Shaolin priest, taught philosophy and the martial arts. He asked too many questions and his master would say something like "Ah, Grasshopper. Everything will be revealed to you in time." Many times, I had to take Joe's advice on faith until I could understand the deeper meaning of his explanations. I suggest you take on faith what people tell you. If women don't want to be compared to an object, DON'T do it. Take it on faith unless you want to go through life banging your head against the wall. Michael Washington, DC I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 12:12 AM Subject: [Tango-L] Brainstorming There is a method of collective thinking called Brainstorming. It is when ideas are spontaneously generated and thought about. For especially angry ladies I can offer another one: "A singer and his voice". Igor Polk Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:23:37 -0800 From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Brainstorming To: <tango-l@mit.edu> So far: "baby on a swing" - excellent ! A follower, by Tango for Her. "painter and his brush" - leader and follower, by Tango For Her "musician and violin" - leader and follower, by Igor Polk What else? PS, If you are not interested in this brainstorming, please do not interfere ! Igor Polk Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 15:26:47 +0100 From: desdelasnubes@web.de Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Brainstorming To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>, tango-l@mit.edu > So far: > "baby on a swing" - excellent ! A follower, by Tango for Her. > "painter and his brush" - leader and follower, by Tango For Her > "musician and violin" - leader and follower, by Igor Polk< In your inventory of poetic imagery you seem to have forgotten the broom: > 3. You dance tango rather like a broom than a violin. (by Igor Polk) In case you're not familiar with the tradition of "bailar con la escoba" don't forget to read the manual before dancing with a broom: "Come, old broomstick, you are needed, Take these rags and wrap them round you! Long my orders you have heeded, By my wishes now I've bound you. Have two legs and stand, And a head for you. Run, and in your hand Hold a bucket too." (Sorcerer's apprentice. Goethe. https://www.fln.vcu.edu/goethe/zauber_e3.html [https://www.fln.vcu.edu/goethe/zauber_e3.html]) with thanks to all poets for their valuable contributions and for widening our poetic horizon Annanymous broom Der WEB.DE SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! https://smartsurfer.web.de/?mc0071&distributionid0000000066 [https://smartsurfer.web.de/?mc0071&distributionid0000000066] Continue to Direction: Stationary steps \| ARTICLE INDEX

4679 Community Expansion Brainstorming