916 Competitions
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 13:30:42 -0800
From: Rick FromPdx <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Competitions
If people want to compete & hold competitions, more power to them. We have
small Jack & Jill competitions here at our local swing club, randomly
pairing partners to dance, be judged, etc. For me personally I discovered
for myself:
1. I dance because I love to & to have fun & for my partners to have
a great, safe experience.
2. How do you compared skilled dancers with different styles? (Think
of the Academy Awards, lots of great movies, which is "best"?).
3. Almost everyone dances "better" socially than competively.
4. I hate being judged & its not clear what they heck their criteria is.
This is my my own personal experience...
Rick
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:11:20 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: tango competitions
A question was recently posed to the list:
"Does the tango world really support tango competitions, or [does] tango
just seem like a dance that can't be judged?"
Who can judge a feeling?
But here we go again. Yet another tango championship is being organized
in Buenos Aires. The January 3, 2003 edition of La Nacion announced that
registration is open for the "Primer Campeonato Mundial de Baile de Tango"
(first world championship of tango). It is open to dancers anywhere in the
world who want to compete in either category--tango de escenario (tango for
the stage professionals) or tango salon (for amateurs). The announcement
didn't say who
is organizing it, but if you want information www.festivaldetango.com.ar
The World Tango Festival held October 6-13, 2002, also included the first
world tango competition organized by the Associacion de Maestros, Bailarines
y Coreografos de Tango Argentino (AMBCTA). Any participant could enter.
The only report I read of the festival was published in the Autumn issue of
El Once Tango News (London). Mitsura Akikusa of London reported on the
festival and had this to say about the competition:
"...the entry was poor and judged only by the amount of clapping as the
entrants' nationality was announced."
I read Mitsura's three-page report of the festival. I'm sorry she came so
far and didn't get close to seeing the real tango in Buenos Aires.
Pichi de Buenos Aires
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 02:17:37 +0100
From: Chris Luethen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: tango competitions
On 5 Jan 2003 at 23:11, Janis Kenyon wrote:
> The announcement
> didn't say who
> is organizing it, but if you want information
> www.festivaldetango.com.ar
according to the dutch peridical "La Cadena" [no 84, dec. 2002]
(their website: https://www.lacadena.nl/) the group of maestros is
headed by Juan Carlos & Johana Copes.
christian [rotterdam, NL]
christian@eTanguero.net
https://www.eTanguero.net/
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:24:09 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Re: Tango (and competitions) versus Argentine tango
Dear Mike and Bandito,
Before answering I must stress that I know only a very few (professional) ballroom dancers from the States who's knowledge may be =
considered adequate.
Judging from what you discribe:
You say "upright position" and "leaning back". Upright position is something that will not cause you any harm in tango - considering if you =
want to keep your axis. Leaning back is a major problem in case of ballroom dancing, so I must judge that your "sample" is quite a =
beginner.
Anyway, most people who learn ballroom dancing as a hobby dance maybe 2-3 hours/week (for a year or two)which is far from enough to learn any =
dance. 5-10 years of dancing 2-3 hours every day maybe...
Tango dancers who consider dancing one of their "afterwork" programmes spend usually more time with dancing than ballroom dancers. Also there =
is only one dance to learn (I don't consider vals substantially different, and even milonga is very close - in "ballroom" terms), not to =
mention, that in case of tango you must begin to learn technique at beginners class, while this is definitely not the case if you go to a =
danceschool ballroom course. So comparison to dancers who did a few courses will be misleading.
About competitions:
There is a tango for social situations and there is a tango for show. As in any type of social dance, there is always a theatrical and an =
"authentic" form (that is for social settings).
I agree with Laurie in that there is a history in tango literature on organzied competitions, but I must say that the actual thinking of the =
milongueros included many elements of competition: they always tried to be "the best dancers around".
You can also differentiate between competitions in social tango (at a milonga, among people who know each other) and competitions of =
performance (like a spectator sport: the competition is not l'art pour l'art anymore, but also a performance presented to the (mostly =
non-dancer) spectators).
If there is something which is "alien" from the original forms of tango, then it is not competition, not even a "stage" presentation (it exist AT =
LEAST since the first - documented - presentation of tango in Europe - which was around 1906 if I remember correctly) but pre-learned =
choreography. I believe that the most essential characteristic of tango is improvisation. However, we are only humans and the requirements at a =
stage performance or a competition (especially today) are slightly different then in the slums of late 19th century BsAs, so choreography =
(created to give the impression of being improvised) helps a lot to perform better, so since 1950s it became a part of tango culture. Since =
1983 it is the actual driving force behind the new rennessaince of tango. Most people I know - even those who now despise anything in tango =
that is not enough authentic - learnt about tango from some performance.
Cheers,
Aron
> I agree wholeheartedly. Not to disparage anyone who has a
> good time learning and dancing ballroom, but in my
> experience, those who have tried to "cross over" from
> ballroom to Argentine are the ones that have the most
> trouble. Not only do they have to "unlearn the habits" that
> run so counter to the basic precepts of Argentine Tango, AND
> learn how to walk again, they also have to learn that
> dancing Argentine Tango is not about steps and maneuvers,
> but passion and feeling. Argentine Tango at it's finest is
> when two people can connect at a gut level, with no concerns
> other than the music, and the feelings that are generated by
> the soulful interaction of two bodies in tune with each
> other. When a leader finally understands that every move of
> every inch of his body is there to communicate, and when his
> follower finally comprehends, and responds, to those
> communiqués! It's not just the approach to the dance, the
> posture, or the way of moving; it's the spiritual
> synchronicity that can only be experienced in Argentine
> Tango, where the connection is not just physical, but metaphysical.
>
>
>
> Warm regards to all,
>
>
>
> Michael
>
> Houston, TX
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:15:45 -0800
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: competitions
Laurie writes ... "It ceases to be fun when people try to treat it as an
arty-farty pastime with deep psychological overtones. Loosen up and enjoy."
Jay responds:
> Way to go, Laurie. Right on. :-)
Isn't that the truth. Some people take this dance & themselves way toooo seriously.
Not a pretty sight.
.
The ballroom dancers I know, most of them don't compete. Some do & enjoy it.
It doesn't intefere with having a good time social dancing. They're nice friendly fun
people that love to dance.
.
Regarding milongas, I find the tempo, personally, too fast. Kinda relentless. 1 tanda
an evening is plenty for me, I'd like to see more vals...
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:38:53 +0100
From: Melina Sedo <melinasedo@ONLINEHOME.DE>
Subject: Competitions
Hi all,
I'm no fan of competitions and I would never take part in one - but I don't want to demonize them, as competitions are a part of Tango history also among the "old milongueros" in Argentina.
But here's the recent story of tango-competitions in Germany.
During the last two years the first and second "German Championships Tango Argentino" were organized and they were a real disaster.
In order to understand it, you must know that in Germany there exists a great antagonism inbetween the tango people and the professional dance-schools. Most Tango people detest the other social dances and would never visit a ball or a milonga in a dance school. The ballroom dancers call tango people snobbish fanatics. (Is it the same in USA?)
And: the German championship was organized by a couple who also teaches ballroom and who are members of the german association of ballroom-teachers (ADTV).
But: the two love Tango, visited Buenos Aires frequently and wanted to unite tangodancers with ballroom dancers during this championship. They stressed Tango de Salsn (without ganchos or voleos) during the first rounds, choreography was restricted to the last round. They invited Milongueros like Tete as judges and stressed improvisation. And last not least they invited the best german tango-orchestra to play at the ball. All in all: they tried to please the tango communities.
Well, maybe their aims were not that altruistic as they said, but I think they gave a nice try to overcome the prejudices.
But the tango people didn't trust them: "This is ridiculous. They want to ursurpe Tango and to standardize it. This it how it worked in the 20s. Horror!"
And this is how the championships failed: Almost nobody took part. The first championship only counted 7 couples, the second 4!!!! A third one will not be held.
So don't be afraid of competitions, I'm sure the european and american tango-community won't allow them to spread uncontrolled. ;-)))
Melina
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:00:13 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Re: Competitions
Dear Tangueros,
In Hungary we have maybe few hundred people who ever participated on a tango course and somewhat less than a hundred more-or-less active =
milongueros. Usually there are 3 couples on a "national" competitions, two of them teaching, the third is trained by a ballroom teacher. (note =
that the two couples are the only teachers who do mainly tango teaching for living in the country)
Why are there no competitors? I believe there are several reasons. First and foremost: since there are no competitions (two competition per year, =
one of them is the IDO dances national championship, the other is usually an IDO World Cup), most pupils come for social dancing. =
Competitions are not part of tango culture and people who DO want to compete look for an other discipline. Second, because there is no =
pressure on the pupils (to learn faster - essential when you are competing) they learn through group lessons (courses) once or twice a =
week. You won't be able to train someone to dance in front of public this way. Third, teachers are not pushed to train really good dancers. =
They only need people to attend their classes (even if they are beginners) and to populate the milongas (which again requires only basic =
dancing skills). Since there is no real competition between teachers (I know 8 people - including myself - who teach independently (not =
assistants to an other teacher): two couples teach full-time, and two couples either have a day-time job and/or are into some other dance as =
well) this is not likely to change.
In other countries I guess the competition is pretty much eliminated by the "argentine-effect": there are a few Argentines who dominate the =
market by living there or making regular visits and the "natives" are usually unable to fight either the knowledge or the "authenticity" of =
these teachers, so they remain second line.
In ballroom, "average" teachers (not the stars) recognized that real money is in dance schools and not in training couples for competition. =
They need the competitors for two reasons: two act as "advertisement" and to populate the competitions, so there will be a goal for the =
beginners.
You must consider that ballroom has a history in the US and Europe, while tango nearly immediately after its arrival became part of =
ballroom, so what we call Argentine Tango today exists only for 20 years on the Northern hemisphere. The (argentine) teachers brought their =
"socialize, don't show-off" mentality (see: Martha E. Saviglano: Tango - the political economy of passion) with tango. We do not know anymore if =
this mentality is tango, but we do know that it is the mentality of those argentines who brought it here - which, for me, is at least =
suspiscious. Recent Argentine history is definitely not a nice one, it is obvious that these people inject their "national dance" with their =
view on life. But people, way of life and Argentina was different around the turn of the century. I cannot believe that everything remained as it =
was...
Best wishes,
Aron ECSEDY
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Melina Sedo [mailto:melinasedo@ONLINEHOME.DE]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:39 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Competitions
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm no fan of competitions and I would never take part in
> one - but I don't want to demonize them, as competitions are
> a part of Tango history also among the "old milongueros" in
> Argentina.
>
> But here's the recent story of tango-competitions in Germany.
>
> During the last two years the first and second "German
> Championships Tango Argentino" were organized and they were
> a real disaster. In order to understand it, you must know
> that in Germany there exists a great antagonism inbetween
> the tango people and the professional dance-schools. Most
> Tango people detest the other social dances and would never
> visit a ball or a milonga in a dance school. The ballroom
> dancers call tango people snobbish fanatics. (Is it the same in USA?)
> And: the German championship was organized by a couple who
> also teaches ballroom and who are members of the german
> association of ballroom-teachers (ADTV).
> But: the two love Tango, visited Buenos Aires frequently and
> wanted to unite tangodancers with ballroom dancers during
> this championship. They stressed Tango de Salsn (without
> ganchos or voleos) during the first rounds, choreography was
> restricted to the last round. They invited Milongueros like
> Tete as judges and stressed improvisation. And last not
> least they invited the best german tango-orchestra to play
> at the ball. All in all: they tried to please the tango
> communities. Well, maybe their aims were not that altruistic
> as they said, but I think they gave a nice try to overcome
> the prejudices. But the tango people didn't trust them:
> "This is ridiculous. They want to ursurpe Tango and to
> standardize it. This it how it worked in the 20s. Horror!"
>
> And this is how the championships failed: Almost nobody took
> part. The first championship only counted 7 couples, the
> second 4!!!! A third one will not be held.
>
> So don't be afraid of competitions, I'm sure the european
> and american tango-community won't allow them to spread
> uncontrolled. ;-)))
>
> Melina
>
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:13:18 +0200
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: finally: tango competitions at home
I never thought about this but
"thanks" to microsoft: let them compete at home!
check it out at
https://www.binacraft.com/com_040908/game_040908/eng/xtango_eng.html
Christian (still wondering)
.
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 17:25:14 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Competitions
To: tango-l@mit.edu
If you ask the people who dance here about the competitions, most ignore
them. They have no interest. In this years Campeonato the organizers
were desperate to find couples to compete. In previous years there were
as many as 60 couples competing in a milonga. This year at one milonga
I was at there were 5. At every milonga I attended during the
competitions the organizor begged me to dance, she or he would find me a
partner. No thanks.
Those of you who write that competitions have been around in Buenos
Aires for years are correct. But not in the commercialistic,
sensationalistic manner it is done today. There was no international
advertising. There were no special glossy magazines devoted to it. No
costume changes, no hours and hours of private lessons and choreographed
routines. Tango businesses did not elbow and vie and pay for booth
space. Special t-shirts were not printed.
Tango competitions were done in the neighborhood milongas as
entertainment. People danced traditional tango. I can assure you there
were no flying boleos. People liked to demonstrate their skills for
their friends. It was nothing more than that. It was done for fun. It
was not the serious shark like competition that it has become.
I for one do not like these competitions. They are in my opinon helping
to destroy traditional tango. What passes as salon tango in these
competitons is not salon tango. If you have to talk about boleos, you
are not talking about salon. The competitions are not judged fairly.
They are judged on aspects completely unrelated to what it is being
danced.
Tango is a social dance. It is supposed to be improvisational. It is
supposed to convey the feelings of the music through dance. These
commercialistic competitons push this social art form in the same
direction as ballroom. What a shame. What is next? Learning to dance
with a rose in your teeth while people film you and post it on the internet?
On Saturday I was at El Beso. I ran into an old friend. He was one of
the first people I met in 2000 when I came here. I was shocked to hear
the anti-foreigner sentiment coming from his mouth. This is a guy that
loved to have the foreigners in the milongas and to visit. He used to
say it made him proud that people would come here to his country to
dance his dance. Now he is talking about people ruining "our family."
Taking over "our places", not respecting "our culture." He blames the
foreigners for the rising prices. How sad if this were to turn into a
backlash. I have met so many fine people from all over the world.
Unfortunately it is always a few who do not understand and ruin it for
the rest of us.
As for Janis. Probably it is best she answer on her own. We talked
about this. This year she does not have the desire to stand in line
forever to get a ticket for this event. She has covered it in the past
because she thought people who could not come here might be interested
in her perspectives of the event. Believe me, she does not support this
commercial format.
