3510 Conflict in tango styles, where, when, why?
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:57:38 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Conflict in tango styles, where, when, why?
I think the same as Oleh and El Turco that there is no conflict what so ever
:))).
We all agree that there are different tango styles that should be cultivated
and practiced the problem is *the where and the when*.
Canyengue was the oldest form of dancing, was done by our grand parents it
almost entirely disappeared, it is trying to resuscitate again.
Salon Style or Social tango includes, in chronological order:
"Tango liso" : it is an elegantly walked tango devoid of any embellishments.
Most people did not even do any ochos. The embrace had some" light" (space)
between the partners (the bodies did not touch).
Then we had the "Tango of the 40s." (Traditional tango) which added to the
tango liso, turns, sacadas, ganchos, boleos, amagues, enrosques, barridas,
paradas, etc. This style has an open embrace, a close embrace and an elastic
embrace that allows the dancers to modify their closeness according to their
choreographic needs.
Then we had "Tango of the 50s." ( Apilado, club, confiteria, milonguero are
different names that refer to the same style) A style adjusted to crowded
milongas with little available space, characterized by rhythmic walks, some
turns, the ocho milonguero (also called cortado) .
It has a close embrace that limits the possibility of performing
embellishments other than low boleos or a few sacadas.
Then we have tango fantasia, it adds to the tango of the forties prolonged
dramatic pauses with embellishments by both partners, the embrace is
frequently broken with separation of the dancers.
Some people will distinguish this style from "Tango show" in the sense that
this last one adds jumps, lifts and elements borrowed from ballet or modern
dances.
Finally we have "Nuevo Tango" which leads with counter rotation, it has
movements of opposition, frequent hooks and heel sacadas, it adds a
'Surprise factor", It has an open elastic embrace.
There are other very individualized styles such as "Tango elegante" of
Orlando Paiva, the Pulpo Sbrez style with his continuous flowing ganchos,
etc.
So these styles are "our tango" they are here to stay, to change, to evolve,
to disappear, all of them in their unique richness. They are to be
cultivated and practiced according to the personal choice of the dancer.
The problem is "where and when". The milongas have a strict code that
limits the variety to two styles: Tango of the 40s. and of the 50s. This
means mostly traditional salon in open, close or elastic embrace in Villa
Urquiza and other few places or traditional salon close embrace or
milonguero style in the rest of the city of buenos Aires. No ganchos and
very few embellishments.
Fantasia, Show, Nuevo were born and developed at the *practicas* they mostly
belong there and also on stage or for exhibition. Practicas have a very
relaxed code that allows experimentation and discovery. There are some
milongas or areas of general milongas dedicated to other styles such as
Nuevo tango.
I personally welcome any style at the milongas as long as the dancers follow
the codes, dance to the music, follow la ronda, do not interfere with the
other couples, adjusting to the place, the atmosphere, the music and most of
all to the available space.
It is important for the leader to adjust to the style of the lady and not to
try to impose a different one that she may be uncomfortable with.
Finally some people mix styles while dancing, this per se could have some
aesthetic problems, but again it is a question of personal preference. Some
people would advise to dance a whole tango on the same style from the
beginning to the end.
What do you think?
Have a very good day, Sergio.
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:44:19 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <CRojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Conflict in tango styles, where, when, why?
I don't think the style is the problem, in my observations the problem
arises when a dancer is more concern about executing the step/sequence than
paying attention to their partner, line of dancing and/or other couples.
I've seen open frame dancers doing "fantasia" steps while managing the space
available and respecting others, I have also seen "apilado" dancers do the
opposite, I've observed this problem in BA and USA. However, I must say
that most problematic dancers I've seen are "tango nuevo" dancers.
In addition, besides the leader sins of not respecting the space available
and couples around them, followers are often a problem when they execute
extended steps such as boleos, experienced followers usually are aware of
their environment and will over ride a bad lead (meaning they will refuse to
do a step or will do a little one instead).
We all do mistakes at some point, and sometimes we ran into others (even the
best milongueros in BA do it), but when we have a repeater offender, I think
we should pull them to the side and ask them to be more careful.
Carlos Rojas
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 7:58 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Conflict in tango styles, where, when, why?
I think the same as Oleh and El Turco that there is no conflict what so ever
:))).
We all agree that there are different tango styles that should be cultivated
and practiced the problem is *the where and the when*.
Canyengue was the oldest form of dancing, was done by our grand parents it
almost entirely disappeared, it is trying to resuscitate again.
Salon Style or Social tango includes, in chronological order:
"Tango liso" : it is an elegantly walked tango devoid of any embellishments.
Most people did not even do any ochos. The embrace had some" light" (space)
between the partners (the bodies did not touch).
Then we had the "Tango of the 40s." (Traditional tango) which added to the
tango liso, turns, sacadas, ganchos, boleos, amagues, enrosques, barridas,
paradas, etc. This style has an open embrace, a close embrace and an elastic
embrace that allows the dancers to modify their closeness according to their
choreographic needs.
Then we had "Tango of the 50s." ( Apilado, club, confiteria, milonguero are
different names that refer to the same style) A style adjusted to crowded
milongas with little available space, characterized by rhythmic walks, some
turns, the ocho milonguero (also called cortado) .
It has a close embrace that limits the possibility of performing
embellishments other than low boleos or a few sacadas.
Then we have tango fantasia, it adds to the tango of the forties prolonged
dramatic pauses with embellishments by both partners, the embrace is
frequently broken with separation of the dancers.
Some people will distinguish this style from "Tango show" in the sense that
this last one adds jumps, lifts and elements borrowed from ballet or modern
dances.
Finally we have "Nuevo Tango" which leads with counter rotation, it has
movements of opposition, frequent hooks and heel sacadas, it adds a
'Surprise factor", It has an open elastic embrace.
There are other very individualized styles such as "Tango elegante" of
Orlando Paiva, the Pulpo Sbrez style with his continuous flowing ganchos,
etc.
So these styles are "our tango" they are here to stay, to change, to evolve,
to disappear, all of them in their unique richness. They are to be
cultivated and practiced according to the personal choice of the dancer.
The problem is "where and when". The milongas have a strict code that
limits the variety to two styles: Tango of the 40s. and of the 50s. This
means mostly traditional salon in open, close or elastic embrace in Villa
Urquiza and other few places or traditional salon close embrace or
milonguero style in the rest of the city of buenos Aires. No ganchos and
very few embellishments.
Fantasia, Show, Nuevo were born and developed at the *practicas* they mostly
belong there and also on stage or for exhibition. Practicas have a very
relaxed code that allows experimentation and discovery. There are some
milongas or areas of general milongas dedicated to other styles such as
Nuevo tango.
I personally welcome any style at the milongas as long as the dancers follow
the codes, dance to the music, follow la ronda, do not interfere with the
other couples, adjusting to the place, the atmosphere, the music and most of
all to the available space.
It is important for the leader to adjust to the style of the lady and not to
try to impose a different one that she may be uncomfortable with.
Finally some people mix styles while dancing, this per se could have some
aesthetic problems, but again it is a question of personal preference. Some
people would advise to dance a whole tango on the same style from the
beginning to the end.
What do you think?
Have a very good day, Sergio.
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:49:27 -0400
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: Conflict in tango styles, where, when, why?
I agree with Carlos, it isn't about style...it's all about navigation.
You can dance any style you like, but if you don't know how to navigate on the floor, it's going to cause problems.
And to me, navigation is one of the hardest thing in dance to learn...it just takes lots of practice and patience. Only recently did I start trying to lead in tango, and I've lead often in ballroom, and I admit, navigating is hard! Trying to focus on your partner, the music, and everyone else around you takes time to learn. And then of course, if you are new to leading, your still trying to perfect the technical side to leading your partner to do whatever you want her to do. And unfortunately, most people don't INSTINCTIVELY FEEL what they are doing enough and are THINKING too hard about what they are trying to execute, so it's not going to come out natural.
I compare it to driving. When we all first got our drivers license, it was terrifying to go on the highway for the first time. And even though many of us do get more comfortable, a lot of drivers out there still aren't aware enough of what is going on around them, so accidents occur way too often every day. Then add radios, fast food and cell phones and people trying to multitask while driving and it just gets harder! And then you have the drivers who are reckless, or discourteous, or don't know how to use turn signals, and road rage...and it all just gets really hard to navigate on the highway too. I should know, I live in Miami...we have some of the worst drivers in the states. It's like a really packed dance floor.
I think Argentinian's have much more experience navigating on a crowded dance floor, because I've heard how crazy the driving is there. :)
My 2 cents, worth only a penny. :)_
Nicole
Miami
going to BsAs for the first time in October!!! YEAH!!!
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:12:23 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Conflict in tango styles, where, when, why?
Carlos Rojas wrote:
>I don't think the style is the problem, in my observations the problem
>arises when a dancer is more concern about executing the step/sequence
than
>paying attention to their partner, line of dancing and/or other couples.
Nicole adds:
>I agree with Carlos, it isn't about style...it's all about navigation.
I find myself thinking that style affects navigation.
As I see it, good navigation is fostered by respect for others,
recognition that following the line of dance is good convention, and an
ability to improvise. The ability to improvise is what is lacking in
those who dance tango as step patterns. Improvisation comes through an
understanding of tango that allows one to see it as small elements that
relate to each other, but improvisation is enhanced by a command of a
greater variety of elements. In that sense, style shouldn't matter, but
it seems to.
A room crowded full of either salon- or milonguero-style dancers seems to
work reasonably well. Put them together, however, and a few problems may
emerge. To the milonguero-style dancers, the salon dancers may seem to
zip around a bit, and to the salon-style dancers, the milonguero-style
dancers may seem to plod along. The salon dancers may have a few more
navigational options at their command, but they may also be more tied to
the step patterns that were likely part of their learning.
Fantasia was developed in practicas (as Sergio points out), and it is most
suitable for dancing when space is not a consideration. The primary
problem with dancing fantasia at a milonga is that the choreographed
step/sequence mentality of the form does not lend itself to the
improvisation necessary for navigation. At a milonga where most people
are dancing salon, however, dancers who have good navigational skills may
be able to use occasional elements of fantasia without too much problem.
It depends on the element and how crowded the floor is.
Nuevo also was developed in practicas (as Sergio points out), but its
original purpose was to develop a comprehensive system for understanding
the structural elements underlying the already existing styles of tango.
As such, nuevo offers the potential command of a great variety of
elements. The variety of options may entice nuevo dancers to zip and
boing around the dance floor or to at least create a wider lane than those
dancing salon or milonguero. Consequently, some nuevo dancers could annoy
the more dogged salon- and milonguero-style dancers--even though the
potential compatibility is strong (as is evidenced by those who now claim
to dance nuevo milonguero). Compatibality really owes to how much command
over tango the nuevo dancers have and how much importance they place on
adhering to the line of dance. It also helps if other dancers are willing
to accept somewhat wider lanes and can adjust to occasional pauses in the
flow of traffic.
I also find myself thinking that how tango is taught affects
navigation--particularly for beginners.
Those who are taught tango as small elements at the beginning seem to
start dancing with better improvisational/navigation skills. Those who
are taught tango as a system develop their improvisational/navigational
skills as their command of the system improves. Those who are taught
tango as step patterns are left to their own devices to develop
improvisational/navigational skills.
Here I think the initial advantage is to milonguero-style instruction:
Milonguero-style tango is typically taught and danced as small elements.
Nuevo-style tango is taught as a system. Salon-style tango is typically
taught as step patterns, but it can be taught either as small elements or
through a system. Fantasia is typically taught and danced as complex step
patterns, but it can be approached through a system.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:16:26 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Conflict in tango styles, where, when, why?
I agree with most of what Stephen Brown wrote, except:
"The salon dancers may have a few more navigational
options at their command, but they may also be more
tied to the step patterns that were likely part of
their learning."
First, every style has step-pattern dancers. That is
just the way that most beginners dance. To me, the
ability to improvise is first sign that a student is
moving beyond the beginner phase. There might be more
step-pattern dancers among (open embrace) salon
dancers because the open embrace allows the
step-patterns to be completed without learning good
technique. So many open salon dancers remain beginners
for years and years. That's OK too. They seem happy to
just keep collecting patterns, without learning
improvisation.
Second, I think it's a myth that salon dancers have
more navigational options. Any navigational option
available to a salon dancer has a milonguero
equivalent, but there are many milonguero options that
are not known to salon dancers. The most obvious is
the milonguero's ability to execute complete turns in
just the space that he and his partner already occupy.
Hence the idea that a salon dancer could "take" a
space that belongs to a milonguero dancer is absurd.
(Unless we're talking about ramming into other
couples, which is just plain rude ;-) And even if we
are, most salon dancers arent grounded enough to
budge an experienced milonguero, even at ramming
speed. But please, dont try this at home.)
The fact that people accept the legend that the salon
style evolved into the milonguero style in response to
the crowded conditions of downtown milongas is proof
that the style has more navigational flexibility, even
if the legend is bunk.
Sean
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:13:44 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Conflict in tango styles, where, when, why?
In disagreeing with my view that salon dancers may have a few more
navigational options at their command, but they may also be more tied to
the step patterns that were likely part of their learning,
Sean writes:
>First, every style has step-pattern dancers. That is
>just the way that most beginners dance. To me, the
>ability to improvise is first sign that a student is
>moving beyond the beginner phase. There might be more
>step-pattern dancers among (open embrace) salon
>dancers because the open embrace allows the
>step-patterns to be completed without learning good
>technique. So many open salon dancers remain beginners
>for years and years.
I agree with many elements of Sean's comments, but it is my observation
that there are fewer step-pattern dancers among those who learn
milonguero-style tango. Because milonguero-style tango is more typically
taught in small elements, the number milonguero-style dancers who move
beyond the beginning phase in navigational skills is higher. As Sean
points out, salon-style dancers can remain beginners at navigation for
many years. That is, they remain tied to the step patterns that were
likely part of their learning.
>Second, I think it's a myth that salon dancers have
>more navigational options.
I agree in principle with Sean, but let me clarify. I am thinking of
average dancers rather than those who have mastered either style.
Instruction in salon-style tango typically relies on combinations of steps
that work well together, and the dancers who want to master the style must
work to understand the indivudal elements. Instruction in
milonguero-style tango typically relies on small elements, the dancers who
want to master the style must develop their own sense of what combinations
of steps work well together. The consequence is that the average
salon-style dancer (who doesn't have full mastery) is more willing to dart
about and take holes on the dance floor as they appear--whether those
holes are straight ahead or on a diagonal. The average milonguero-style
dancer (who doesn't have full mastery) is likely to stay stictly in the
lane and be non-plussed at the idea of having to adjust to a salon- or
nuevo-style dancer who just darted into his lane.
With best regards,
Steve
