3922 The Contrarian view about bad Argentine dancers
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:25:42 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: The Contrarian view about bad Argentine dancers
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
escribis:
> In Argentina the number of such people [who do not
dance well] is more
> reduced because the ones that
> were not "blessed" by nature do not dance.
A few respondents chose to cast doubts on Sergio's
atatement, saying that they have seen many natives
dancing bad Tango in Argentina.
While agreeing with these observations, one has to
understand that this is seeing the Argentine Tango
scene through tourist eyes. A traveller's view is
different, he/she understands underneath visible
cultural manifestions.
Seeing with a traveller's eyes one understands that
Tango in Argentina has become the means to get a Visa
to somewhere, to become a minor celebrity, to become a
"Professor" of dance, to improve his/her life, maybe
even marry a well-to-do young foreign woman or man.
The attraction of the above breaks down the old
inhibitions, and explains the spectacle of many bad
Argentine dancers, desperate to make a buck.
Lucia
As an aside it is interesting to note that a few days
ago the UNESCO has adopted a plan to combat what is
termed "the homogenizing effect of cultural
globalization".
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:51:54 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: The Contrarian view about bad Argentine dancers
Lucia says: "In Argentina the number of such people [who do not
dance well] is more
>reduced because the ones that
>were not "blessed" by nature do not dance.
A few respondents chose to cast doubts on Sergio's
atatement, saying that they have seen many natives
dancing bad Tango in Argentina."....
Dear Lucia (I agree with the concepts of your answer) I am really tired of
arguing about stupid, irrelevant trivialities but to tell you the truth, I
have been dancing in many places in the world, ballroom, country-western,
and tango; I can assure you that most people in the American Continent south
of the Rio Grande dance socially "on the beat" and a great number of people
to the north of such river have no idea of where the beat is.
You can see just by following this discussion on how to teach rhythm in
tango, by the proposed selection of the music to teach it, by the
absurdities of talking about phrases ( a concept of ballroom tango that does
not apply to the Argentine form), by stating that the beat is not important,
etc, etc, etc, that even those that teach tango do not understand the
musicality of our tango and much less of the milonga which is the easiest to
learn. In this regard I have to agree with el Sr. Saenz and with Janis,
dancing with the old milongueros could do a lot of good, but not because
they are dancing the wrong style but because they are dancing without
musicality.
IMO most people can dance on the beat at the most in about three lessons if
they are taught properly.
I have explained about a million times what the different styles are, I
recently went dancing to New York where they were all dancing Salon Close
Embrace and when I asked them what style do you dance many of them answered
"Milonguero". :))
Somewhat tired of arguing with the ignorant, ignorant of his own ignorance.
Sergio
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 04:00:08 -1200
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: The Contrarian view about bad Argentine dancers
Sergio wrote:
> >
> Dear Lucia
>
> You can see just by following this discussion on how to
> teach rhythm in tango, by the proposed selection of the
> music to teach it, by the absurdities of talking about
> phrases ( a concept of ballroom tango that does not apply
> to the Argentine form),
Sergio
>
I think Sergio is using the word "phrase" incorrectly. A
phrase is a collection of measures of music. In vals, there
are 16 measures to the phrase. How can you tell the end of a
phrase. It "sounds" like a period in a sentence. There is a
finality. The best (not the only one) example I can think of
comes at the end of Pugliese tangos where you hear a strong
or light "boom." You can tell the music is over. Tango,
vals, and milongas all have phrases. I think Sergio is
referring to the cadence, whether a step is a quick or slow.
In that context, he is correct. American (sometimes called
ballroom) tango is slow, slow, quick, quick, slow. However,
I've taken classes from Omar Vega and Susanna Miller where
they taught a specific cadence of slow, quick, quick, slow.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Flows with the music, not with a cadence
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:11:48 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: The Contrarian view about bad Argentine dancers
On Oct 26, 2005, at 8:51 AM, Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> ...
> You can see just by following this discussion on how to teach
> rhythm in
> tango, by the proposed selection of the music to teach it, by the
> absurdities of talking about phrases ( a concept of ballroom tango
> that does
> not apply to the Argentine form), by stating that the beat is not
> important,
> etc, etc, etc, that even those that teach tango do not understand the
> musicality of our tango and much less of the milonga which is the
> easiest to
> learn.
> ...
> Somewhat tired of arguing with the ignorant, ignorant of his own
> ignorance.
>
I don't agree with Sergio's assertion that talking about the phrasing
of tango music is absurd.
It may be that he hasn't studied music and doesn't understand the
concept.
Or perhaps he is an intuitive dancer and just doesn't understand
analytically how to the relate the concept of musical phrase to his
dancing or to tango dancing in general.
Interpreting the phrasing is the foundation of my dancing and my
teaching. Showing the beginner guys how to step on the beat AND move
with the phrasing of the music, enables them to understand the music.
Also, it makes their movements FEEL right, like they maybe know what
they are doing, which leads to confidence and sticking around longer.
Interpreting the phrasing is also the basis of the follower's musical
interpretation!
Obviously, tango music is phrased (once it is pointed out).
The basic structure of tango is 4+4 walking beats to a phrase.
The specific quality that makes tango TANGO (and not foxtrot or
march, for example ), is the suspension and surge expressed by the
orchestra at the initiation of each phrase.
For the non-musician, the easiest way of explaining the idea of the
musical phrase is to listen to the singer. Listen for the end of the
vocal line; the place where the singer stops for a breath. Waltzes in
particular are very lyrical in nature, very regular, and are perhaps
the easiest music to notice these "commas" or "periods".
Dancing to or interpreting the phrase means changing your movement
energy to correspond to the way the music is phrased. This can be
done in many ways: speed, vocabulary choice, momentum, size, pressure
with partner, resolution, pausing, lifting, breathing, etc.
There are two non-phrased kinds of dancers:
(1) One who ignores the phrase of the music like a robot. Walking
endlessly on one foot after the other, like someone who speaks in a
monotone.
(2) Someone who uses resolutions, dramatic pauses or other movements
at the wrong moment in the phrase.
In the infamous 8CB (con temido paso atras), the end of the phrase
might correspond to the resolution, i.e. a moment of rest prior to
surging forward again. But, slavishly memorizing the 8CB is an easy
way to teach NON-musicality.
Yes, tango dancing is relatively free-form and adaptable. You don't
HAVE to hit the end of the phrase. It's forgivable if you miss the
end of a minor phrase. Whereas if you miss the end of the Song, you
just aren't listening to the music. But, when you express the
phrasing, you are more likely to get the comment, "You really hear
the music".
Second, some expressive tango music would be better interpreted by
following the dramatic MELODY line, rather than trying to count to
the phrase. Try walking 4+4=8 to Pugliese's "La Mariposa", and you
will see the problem. You can find the phrase (with careful
listening), but you would want your rhythmic play and movements to
follow the pulse of the Butterfly, not the underlying musical phrase.
The nice thing about Pugliese is that even when he changes tempos, or
goes wood-shedding on occasion, he comes back to the musical phrase,
which is one sense in which The Big P, never left the dancers behind.
I was once merely an intuitive dancer, (with perhaps some moderate
musicality ability). Then I discovered the concept of phrasing. Maybe
I'm a little slow, or maybe I had old habits to overcome, but It took
me two years of counting, and then I felt I really made sense of the
phrasing, and I felt like I gained control over it, not guessing or
"just feeling the music".
Yes, I still go intuitive, but it now has a foundation of understanding.
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:30:01 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: The Contrarian view about bad Argentine dancers
I do not say anything useful in this message, so you can skip it..
Only to members of the current discussion.
I believe what Sergio wanted to say, is that if there were many many people
dancing, teachers did not really have to waste their valuable time as well
as time of other students teaching things which have nothing to do with
tango itself:
sense of rhythm, ability to understand music, ability to move legs and so
on.
These things one has to be born with ( as a good chunk of the people are )
or taught at school.
Those who were not able to - did not dance and this was it.
If they really wanted to dance, and if they were able to do it financially -
they hired special teachers, who would work with them, or used help of their
relatives and friends. I would imagine that in past these were rather
exceptional cases.
That is the problem of modern tango - we are so short on interest, that
tango teachers have to deal a lot with personal problems which have nothing
to do with the dance itself.
No, no, no. Even worse. Those who were able to did not use teacher's
services. They just danced!
Teachers always taught those who mostly were unable to do it themselves. So
the topic is right on target here.
I have a very unpleasant even revolutionary point of view that that was one
of 3 reasons the ballroom dancing was developed - dancing for those who did
not have natural skills for dancing.
Answering a possible question did I ever meet such natural dancers, I firmly
say yes.
They could be natural or already accomplished dancers and athletes ( real
ones ).
They usually do not stay in tango - once stepping on the dance floor they
immediately dance better than most dancers around. They are bored with
everyone else learning how to "understand musical phrases", hand clapping,
and annoying figure repetitions. Taking such classes as well as private
classes they perceive as humiliation. Modern tango dancers and gurus ( not
everyone ) might see them as freaks. These people feel they are not welcome.
So they leave.
Tango was developed by those people. History gave them a chance once.
Igor.
PS. My philosophy is that everyone should dance and can dance well and very
well. With dedication and teacher's help. But at the same time I want to
appreciate and understand those who are talented.
Question:
Tine, and some others gave some interesting advice how to attract and deal
with such people. I wonder, if they already come to the class, are there
more ways to convince them to stay and progress. Can I use some arguments?
How to talk to them, what to show?
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:21:12 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: The Contrarian view about bad Argentine dancers
Igor Polk wrote:
>I have a very unpleasant even revolutionary point of view that that was one
>of 3 reasons the ballroom dancing was developed - dancing for those who did
>not have natural skills for dancing.
>
Ballroom dancing's primary reason for existence was to make Vernon and
Irene Castle rich and famous. However, there are enough people with at
least some aptitude for dancing (even in Great Britain) that I'm reluctant
to agree that they needed to reach people with no such aptitude.
>Answering a possible question did I ever meet such natural dancers, I firmly
>say yes.
>
I've met several women with years (decades, actually) of modern dance or
ballet training who learn the physical skills of tango incredibly fast ...
they can do overturned back ochos as soon as you verbalize the concept
without ever having seen one done.
>They could be natural or already accomplished dancers and athletes ( real
>ones ).
>They usually do not stay in tango - once stepping on the dance floor they
>immediately dance better than most dancers around. They are bored with
>everyone else learning how to "understand musical phrases", hand clapping,
>and annoying figure repetitions.
>
You are missing the inner experience of tango as a variable in all of
this. Mental skills have equal importance to physical skills, and
maybe they are even more essential. All of the "natural dancers" I
have met still need to learn how to drop into tango trance. They can
only do that when they don't have to put conscious attention on their
dancing, though. That takes them a long while.
Perhaps what you call natural dancers just fake it really well, appearing
on the outside to dance tango while their inner experience is completely
divorced from the tango gestalt many longtimers eventually cultivate.
In the end "natural dancers" are most likely surpassed surpassed by the
dancers who practice obsessively, while the "natural dancers" who feel
like they're competent already, experience no reward from practice, so
they dance at whatever level they started at for the rest of their
[presumably short] tango careers.
>Taking such classes as well as private classes they perceive as humiliation.
>
This is a mind read. Unless you have a valid statistical sample of such
dancers, each of whom has verbalized the same thought to you?
>Modern tango dancers and gurus ( not
>everyone ) might see them as freaks. These people feel they are not welcome.
>So they leave.
>
You're right about one thing ... there is a certain breed of person,
who feels threatened by more competent persons and attempts to impose
the equality of the axe and chainsaw upon everyone about them.
I can only say that you're on shaky grounds in implying that that every
tango dancer or guru does that.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:22:38 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: The Contrarian view about bad Argentine dancers
> Dancing to or interpreting the phrase means changing your movement
> energy to correspond to the way the music is phrased. This can be
> done in many ways: speed, vocabulary choice, momentum, size, pressure
> with partner, resolution, pausing, lifting, breathing, etc.
Precisely. Great job of putting this concept into words, Tom.
>
> There are two non-phrased kinds of dancers:
> (1) One who ignores the phrase of the music like a robot. Walking
> endlessly on one foot after the other, like someone who speaks in a
> monotone.
My friend calls this type of leader a "sleeping pill". Or, as Tine said, she
can think of her shopping list during that. I usually desperately hope for
the music to end, so that I can get out of there.
> (2) Someone who uses resolutions, dramatic pauses or other movements
> at the wrong moment in the phrase.
I always feel like these men are "wasting the music". When a song comes on
that I really love, I studiously avoid dancing with these kind of men.
>
> Yes, tango dancing is relatively free-form and adaptable. You don't
> HAVE to hit the end of the phrase. It's forgivable if you miss the
> end of a minor phrase. Whereas if you miss the end of the Song, you
> just aren't listening to the music.
Typical symptom: the music has already stopped, and the man is still
walking, completing the rest of the figure he had in mind (while ignoring
the music). I even had a man fall over me in my second year of learning
tango, at the time, when I was proudly practising this dramatic stage type
finish I had just learned, proudly threw my leg back into a long back step,
posed there with the last beat of the music- and there comes the man falling
over me while still he is in the middle of a walk. Early sins. I don't do
that anymore. Now I just stop slowly and gently, or keep walking with the
man, look at him, raise one eyebrow, smile questioningly, and then he starts
giggling in embarrassment because at last he starts listening and realises
that the music is long over... fortunately there are not too many of this
type, but we have a few. Especially in the practica.
It took
> me two years of counting, and then I felt I really made sense of the
> phrasing, and I felt like I gained control over it,
I never counted, I just listened carefully and danced, listened and
danced... until my mind figured it out.
not guessing or
> "just feeling the music".
Yes. "Feeling the music" is nice too, and part of it, but *feeling only*
does not get you very far. There is no way around the nitty gritty of almost
endless practise, just like when you learn to play a musical instrument. In
this case, the instrument is your body, and the music can play on it if you
let it.
There is one boy in our practica, maybe 18 or so, a bit of a nerdy type, who
comes to tango with his mother. His mother is a great dancer. Recently he
has been rapidly getting better, and now he really interpretes the music,
and has developed a great lead, in spite of his small, thin body. Last time
he asked me to dance, after the week before I had asked him to dance with me
to a song I knew he liked and was good at. We put a great valse on the floor
together. Afterwards I talked to him for the first time (Japanese are not
chatty people and less so around foreigners), and asked him if he listens to
music a lot at home."Yes", he said, "all the time". "This is a good thing,
that you listen to that.", I told him. It really shows in his dancing, and
makes all the difference to those who don't.
Astrid
>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:37:40 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: The Contrarian view about bad Argentine dancers
Tom Stermitz wrote:
>It's forgivable if you miss the end of a minor phrase.
>Whereas if you miss the end of the Song, you
>just aren't listening to the music.
If you dance in a collaborative manner with a somewhat unfamiliar or
infrequent partner, the possibility of missing the end of the song
increases because the leader and the follower can have different and
possibly incompatible ideas about how to end the song. It usually makes
for a good laugh.
With best regards,
Steve
