Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s)


4617 Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s)	ARTICLE INDEX
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:49:09 -0500 From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: Dani Iannarelli <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Dani Iannarelli wrote: > Hello all, > > With regard to the 'refresh' button for the milonga dance floor :-) .ie > cortinas :-) > > Just wondering what members would consider the optimum length? > However long it takes for people to clear the floor. No more, no less. Big floor, lots of people with difficult egress, you might need as much as 90 seconds. Tiny floor, small crowd, easy to get on/off the floor, 10-15 seconds. Christopher Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 19:57:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>, white95r@hotmail.com, spatz@tangoDC.com Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Hi Christopher, Jake, Manuel... everybody I think your suggestion is favourable with me, Christopher. Assess the length required on a 'need-to-effect' basis. I was considering what you both suggest, Jake and Manuel. Trouble is that with longer 'set' lengths, there is always the invariable numpty who feels they have to get up and dance to the cortina... nothing more annoying. What do you think? Dani ----- Original Message ---- Sent: Thursday, 5 October, 2006 8:49:09 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) Dani Iannarelli wrote: > Hello all, > > With regard to the 'refresh' button for the milonga dance floor :-) .ie > cortinas :-) > > Just wondering what members would consider the optimum length? > However long it takes for people to clear the floor. No more, no less. Big floor, lots of people with difficult egress, you might need as much as 90 seconds. Tiny floor, small crowd, easy to get on/off the floor, 10-15 seconds. Christopher Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:16:47 -0400 From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: tango-L@mit.edu Hi Dani (and Neil), Well, I look at it like this... Not everyone is going to clear the floor, since people sometimes dance more than a tanda together. So it's not my job as a DJ to _force_ them off. It's my job to mark the change between tandas. That's how I (and others) deal with the context we've got. To dictate a different manner of conduct, when it doesn't really matter all that much, is simply rude. After all, some of us aren't acting out of ignorance: we're adapting to the conditions at hand. As for people who dance to the cortinas... Well, if the DJ plays salsa or swing or whatever, who really cares? People come to dance, and even if they annoy me a little, it's hardly worth condemning them for the way they have fun. Honestly, I pay more attention to picking out my socks. Another matter, however, are the cortinas played before or after alternative sets... These can get genuinely confusing. Some DJs, I notice, don't even play a cortina before an alternative set-- a breaking of the pattern that just throws people off. After an alternative set, the cortina, I think, should be markedly NOT dance music, so that dancers understand what's going on. But for that matter, alternative sets also need to be selected with a bit of care... I once heard a DJ play an obscure Piazzolla number at a very well-attended milonga, and my partner and I were the only ones who started dancing to it. Everyone else just stood around confused. Reacting to the crowd, as he should have, the DJ faded it out after 45 seconds, pretended it was a cortina, and played a traditional tanda. I wanted to dance to the song, sure; but he acted appropriately, and clarified matters for the other 80 or so people present-- which is every DJ's primary function, once they've got their tandas and cortinas worked out. The crowd at hand comes first. Everything else comes third. Jake Spatz DC Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ wrote: > Hi Christopher, Jake, Manuel... everybody > > I think your suggestion is favourable with me, Christopher. Assess the > length required on a 'need-to-effect' basis. > > I was considering what you both suggest, Jake and Manuel. Trouble is > that with longer 'set' lengths, there is always the invariable numpty > who feels they have to get up and dance to the cortina... nothing more > annoying. > > What do you think? > > Dani > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Christopher L. Everett <ceverett@ceverett.com> > To: Dani Iannarelli <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> > Sent: Thursday, 5 October, 2006 8:49:09 PM > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) > > Dani Iannarelli wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > With regard to the 'refresh' button for the milonga dance floor :-) .ie > > cortinas :-) > > > > Just wondering what members would consider the optimum length? > > > However long it takes for people to clear the floor. No > more, no less. Big floor, lots of people with difficult egress, > you might need as much as 90 seconds. Tiny floor, small > crowd, easy to get on/off the floor, 10-15 seconds. > > Christopher > Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 15:35:32 -0500 From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu> Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ wrote: > Hi Christopher, Jake, Manuel... everybody > > I think your suggestion is favourable with me, Christopher. Assess the > length required on a 'need-to-effect' basis. > > I was considering what you both suggest, Jake and Manuel. Trouble is > that with longer 'set' lengths, there is always the invariable numpty > who feels they have to get up and dance to the cortina... nothing more > annoying. Happens even in Buenos Aires. Seen it with my own eyes. Play something absolutely undanceable. Opening chords of Beethoven's 5th or something like that. I gave up on Piazzola and electrotango for cortinas for that same reason. Christopher > > What do you think? > > Dani > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Christopher L. Everett <ceverett@ceverett.com> > To: Dani Iannarelli <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> > Sent: Thursday, 5 October, 2006 8:49:09 PM > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) > > Dani Iannarelli wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > With regard to the 'refresh' button for the milonga dance floor :-) .ie > > cortinas :-) > > > > Just wondering what members would consider the optimum length? > > > However long it takes for people to clear the floor. No > more, no less. Big floor, lots of people with difficult egress, > you might need as much as 90 seconds. Tiny floor, small > crowd, easy to get on/off the floor, 10-15 seconds. > > Christopher > Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 15:09:17 -0600 From: nina@earthnet.net Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: tango-L@mit.edu format="flowed" Hi, Jake and everyone, There are may people at the milongas who are just beginning to learn why things are done a certain way in tango. People who are too new to grasp the intimate nature of the dance may not naturally be inclined to follow any kind of codes of behavior because they have not learned it or its purpose. If a DJ goes along with such ignorance, he or she fosters an environment that I consider to be bastardization of tango, People have to get off the dance floor after one set. In tango, if they do not, usually it is the woman's reputation that will be at stake. It is like leaving a milonga with a man, especially if the lady has arrived alone. Of course, people who do not care about their reputation, may not care aout such things, but anyone who cares about the "longeity" of their popularity in a tango community, will definitely care about how they are perceived. The music is there for the dancers. Longer cortinas have a purpose - they allow dancers to choose appropriately their next partner. Considering that it is a man's responsibility to walk the lady to her table after a tanda, a longer cortina is essential. The reason that a man walks a lady to her table is because she is often disoriented after dancing. This has always been a custom and every custom has a reason behind it. Does the current generation of dancers and DJs does not know this? Alternative music does nto count as real tandas and can be viewed as long cortinas. It would be nice if an ending of a strange, long cortina was marked somehow. The DJ's work is fundamental. A DJ who not only knows the music, but who spins with sensitivity and care creates a space for dancers and their feelings. A real DJ is not someone who provides background music for whatever people want to do. To DJ well is an art. In regular nighclubs, DJs are valued and paid accordingly for what they create in terms of energy and flow - when people take a break and when they cannot keep themselves from dancing. In tango, it seems that there is a much more amateur approach to this very important job and anyone who is willing can appear as a DJ. That is too bad. Warmest regards to all, Nina P.S. I never believed in conspiracies until I realized that there is an attempt by some people to replace the authentic music of Argentine tango with "alternative". Quoting "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>: > Hi Dani (and Neil), > > Well, I look at it like this... Not everyone is going to clear the > floor, since people sometimes dance more than a tanda together. So it's > not my job as a DJ to _force_ them off. It's my job to mark the change > between tandas. That's how I (and others) deal with the context we've > got. To dictate a different manner of conduct, when it doesn't really > matter all that much, is simply rude. After all, some of us aren't > acting out of ignorance: we're adapting to the conditions at hand. > > As for people who dance to the cortinas... Well, if the DJ plays salsa > or swing or whatever, who really cares? People come to dance, and even > if they annoy me a little, it's hardly worth condemning them for the way > they have fun. Honestly, I pay more attention to picking out my socks. > > Another matter, however, are the cortinas played before or after > alternative sets... These can get genuinely confusing. Some DJs, I > notice, don't even play a cortina before an alternative set-- a breaking > of the pattern that just throws people off. After an alternative set, > the cortina, I think, should be markedly NOT dance music, so that > dancers understand what's going on. > > But for that matter, alternative sets also need to be selected with a > bit of care... I once heard a DJ play an obscure Piazzolla number at a > very well-attended milonga, and my partner and I were the only ones who > started dancing to it. Everyone else just stood around confused. > Reacting to the crowd, as he should have, the DJ faded it out after 45 > seconds, pretended it was a cortina, and played a traditional tanda. I > wanted to dance to the song, sure; but he acted appropriately, and > clarified matters for the other 80 or so people present-- which is every > DJ's primary function, once they've got their tandas and cortinas worked > out. > > The crowd at hand comes first. Everything else comes third. > > Jake Spatz > DC > > > Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ wrote: >> Hi Christopher, Jake, Manuel... everybody >> >> I think your suggestion is favourable with me, Christopher. Assess the >> length required on a 'need-to-effect' basis. >> >> I was considering what you both suggest, Jake and Manuel. Trouble is >> that with longer 'set' lengths, there is always the invariable numpty >> who feels they have to get up and dance to the cortina... nothing more >> annoying. >> >> What do you think? >> >> Dani >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Christopher L. Everett <ceverett@ceverett.com> >> To: Dani Iannarelli <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> >> Sent: Thursday, 5 October, 2006 8:49:09 PM >> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) >> >> Dani Iannarelli wrote: >> > Hello all, >> > >> > With regard to the 'refresh' button for the milonga dance floor :-) .ie >> > cortinas :-) >> > >> > Just wondering what members would consider the optimum length? >> > >> However long it takes for people to clear the floor. No >> more, no less. Big floor, lots of people with difficult egress, >> you might need as much as 90 seconds. Tiny floor, small >> crowd, easy to get on/off the floor, 10-15 seconds. >> >> Christopher >> > Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 17:20:55 -0400 From: "Jacob Eggers" <eggers@brandeis.edu> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu> <dfa4cf020610051420v6cb49ad6m9250d4a87854cdf7@mail.gmail.com> The united states isn't buenos aires. I don't know much about buenos aires, but the US has a huge variety of dancers. Everyone dances differently and for different reasons. I think that a dj here has the opportunity to create virtually any environment that s/he desires. (If it people like the environment, then the dj will be sucessful, if not then the dj will quickly fade into history.) There are a few ideas about cortinas that I've thought about while dancing: Cortina Length: I often like to dance multiple tandas with my favorite followers, so cortinas longer than 30-40secs hurt my mood/momentum. However, if a dj wants to play cortinas > 60sec, I have no problem with it, but I probably wouldn't frequent those milongas. Danceable Cortinas: I dislike dancing to cortinas, but some djs will use very danceable songs as cortinas. Songs that other djs will use in a tanda. Cortinas should, in my opinion, be undanceable to even the most alternative person in the room. (Actually, I know of one dj that would occasionally play an entire danceable alternative song as a cortina. It gives the traditional dancers a chance to rest their legs for a couple of minutes, and gives the alternative crowd a moment of happiness.) Cortina moods: One last pet peev, cortinas are sometimes picked too haphazardly. Please pick nice songs that fit the mood at the moment. Often a dj will play a loud jarring cortina in between a couple of beautiful lyrical pieces. That can be disruptive to an otherwise very nice night. Picking cortinas to fit or alter the mood can be a valuable tool to an intelligent dj. I also like the idea of always playing the same cortina before announcements. Chau, j On 10/5/06, Christopher L. Everett <ceverett@ceverett.com> wrote: > Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ wrote: > > Hi Christopher, Jake, Manuel... everybody > > > > I think your suggestion is favourable with me, Christopher. Assess the > > length required on a 'need-to-effect' basis. > > > > I was considering what you both suggest, Jake and Manuel. Trouble is > > that with longer 'set' lengths, there is always the invariable numpty > > who feels they have to get up and dance to the cortina... nothing more > > annoying. > Happens even in Buenos Aires. Seen it with my own eyes. > > Play something absolutely undanceable. Opening chords of Beethoven's > 5th or something like that. > > I gave up on Piazzola and electrotango for cortinas for that same reason. > > Christopher > > > > What do you think? > > > > Dani > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Christopher L. Everett <ceverett@ceverett.com> > > To: Dani Iannarelli <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> > > Sent: Thursday, 5 October, 2006 8:49:09 PM > > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) > > > > Dani Iannarelli wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > > > With regard to the 'refresh' button for the milonga dance floor :-) .ie > > > cortinas :-) > > > > > > Just wondering what members would consider the optimum length? > > > > > However long it takes for people to clear the floor. No > > more, no less. Big floor, lots of people with difficult egress, > > you might need as much as 90 seconds. Tiny floor, small > > crowd, easy to get on/off the floor, 10-15 seconds. > > > > Christopher > > > > Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 17:54:41 -0400 From: "Jacob Eggers" <eggers@brandeis.edu> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: tango-L@mit.edu <dfa4cf020610051454s7731ff38g414b7ef9717ec514@mail.gmail.com> > There are may people at the milongas who are just beginning to learn > why things are done a certain way in tango. People who are too new to > grasp the intimate nature of the dance may not naturally be inclined > to follow any kind of codes of behavior because they have not learned > it or its purpose. If a DJ goes along with such ignorance, he or she > fosters an environment that I consider to be bastardization of tango, Spanish is a bastardized latin. Tango is also bastardized. It wasn't born from thin air, but evolved from previously existing dances. It is still evolving. A beautiful thing about tango is that everyone who learns the dance adds a little piece of themselves to it. I would find the night a little less interesting if every follower danced with the same style and tradition. > People have to get off the dance floor after one set. In tango, if > they do not, usually it is the woman's reputation that will be at > stake. It is like leaving a milonga with a man, especially if the > lady has arrived alone. Of course, people who do not care about their > reputation, may not care aout such things, but anyone who cares about > the "longeity" of their popularity in a tango community, will > definitely care about how they are perceived. In the united states, that is not always the case. In many circles it is very common and socially acceptable for people to dance multiple tandas. Many of the most respected instructors in the US dance multiple tandas. They derive their reputation from their unique style and quality of dance rather than a foolish consistency in adhering a foreign tradition. However, traditions often exist for a reason which is not always readilly apperent. There is also a distinct beauty about following some traditions. So, I wouldn't say we should ignore tradition all together, but just let it evolve a little. > The music is there for the dancers. Longer cortinas have a purpose - > they allow dancers to choose appropriately their next partner. > Considering that it is a man's responsibility to walk the lady to her > table after a tanda, a longer cortina is essential. The reason that a > man walks a lady to her table is because she is often disoriented > after dancing. This has always been a custom and every custom has a > reason behind it. Does the current generation of dancers and DJs does > not know this? Walking back to the table is a tradition that I like and wish I practiced more often. However, I have seen it taken too far. I've heard a follower complain about being grabbed by the arm and forceably led back to the chair where she was picked up. Tradition should be adaptable. > The DJ's work is fundamental. A DJ who not only knows the music, but > who spins with sensitivity and care creates a space for dancers and > their feelings. A real DJ is not someone who provides background > music for whatever people want to do. To DJ well is an art. In > regular nighclubs, DJs are valued and paid accordingly for what they > create in terms of energy and flow - when people take a break and when > they cannot keep themselves from dancing. In tango, it seems that > there is a much more amateur approach to this very important job and > anyone who is willing can appear as a DJ. That is too bad. much agreed. > Nina > P.S. I never believed in conspiracies until I realized that there is > an attempt by some people to replace the authentic music of Argentine > tango with "alternative". I'd say suppliment rather than replace. Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 22:56 +0100 (BST) From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com Nina wrote > People have to get off the dance floor after one set. In tango, if > they do not, usually it is the woman's reputation that will be at > stake. ... every custom has a reason behind it. Does the current > generation of dancers and DJs does not know this? Hmm... well, the London milonga at which I DJ has about twice as many people as seats. So if I were to succeed in clearing the floor, I guess the dancers would have to sit two deep on each chair. Now I wonder what that would do to lady's reputation? ;) > Alternative music does nto count as real tandas and can be viewed as > long cortinas. It would be nice if an ending of a strange, long > cortina was marked somehow. I find D'Arienzo or Biagi works a treat. ;) Chris Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 22:10:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: Jacob Eggers <eggers@brandeis.edu>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu> I tend to agree with you entirely, Jacob. Although I agree to an extent and totally understand the sense behind Jake's suggestion, I personally feel that some sort of consistency in length is preferable. I do realise, though, that consideration should be given to other factors such as the principle of adhering to the traditional purpose of the cortina (to which Nina gave an excellent insight) and also Jake's and Manuel's 'clearing the floor and getting everyone settled for the next onslaught (a bit like the 'refresh' button on computer programs). Although I also agree about using pretty much a piece of music that is entirely different from tango, one of my favourite pieces that I've adapted for use as a cortina is Fred Astaire's "Change Partners". Okay, so it is I suppose tango-danceable (I am very much a 'purist' though), using it as an example the lyric is so very apt: [END OF TANDA] "Must you dance, every dance With the same fortunate man? You have danced with him since the music began, Won't you change partners and dance with me? Must you dance, quite so close With your lips touching his face? Can't you see I'm longing to be in his place, Won't you change partners and dance with me?" [= 50 seconds] [NEXT TANDA] [END OF TANDA] "Ask him to sit this one out, and while you're alone I'll tell the waiter to tell him he's wanted on the telephone... You've been locked, in his arms Ever since Heaven knows when...! Won't you change partners and then... You may never have to change partners again. [refrain]" [= 40 seconds] [NEXT TANDA] [END OF TANDA] "[refrain] Won't you change partners and dance with me? [refrain] Won't you change partners and dance with me?" [refrain] [= 50 seconds] "[refrain] You've been locked, in his arms Ever since Heaven knows when...! Won't you change partners and then... You may never want to change partners again" [= 45 seconds] NEXT TANDA By chopping up the same song into consecutive sections, I feel it gives a sort of sense and continuation... perhaps, in fact, for a series of similar-style tandas (eg. tangos, milongas, vals) before changing the cortina for the next set of tandas. Now, I realise that my ideas might come across as a bit overly romantic and perhaps unworkable for many people but I think it's all to do with the application and intent taking into consideration, of course, all the suggestions already offered by Jake, Manuel, Nina, Jacob etc. I also like to use some real hard blues/jump-blues/swing such as Louis Jordan, Roy Brown, Bullmoose Jackson, Sippie Wallace, Amos Milburn etc etc etc. Another question, do any of you have strong opinions about the length of the actual tandas? For example, how many song in each tanda? Do you think it depends on the style of songs therein? The time-length of the songs and therefore the ultimate length of the tanda itself? Should all tandas be pretty much the same length? What about the proportion of tango tandas vs milonga tandas vs vals tandas vs. nuevo tandas...? Regards Dani ?El Zorro de Tango? JJJ Website: https://www.tango-la-dolce-vita.eu Online photogalleries: https://www.flickr.com/photos/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:35:38 -0700 From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: <spatz@tangoDC.com> Cc: tango-l@mit.edu I like what Jake says. In any way, even annoyingly long courtina time is mostly not enough to select a partner and invite each other. Sometimes - may be, but often - not. Imagine you want to have a sip of wine in-between, go to a restroom? Or chat a little? So, then you have to wait a whole tanda to start dancing? While other ladies are waiting? Hmmm.. not for me. So more often than not, one have to stay with a partner to continue their 4 dances. To separate just because it is a courtina - sorry, I never do it. For example, dancing a milonga or vals with a new partner, I like to continue and finish with at least one tango. Courtina music should definitely break the current tanda style, tempo, and gradually prepare for the next one. I do not like when courtinas are danceable. Often, especially at alternative events they are more calling me for a dance than the music itself. If people in the dancing room have other purpose to gather than just dancing, that is another matter. Long curtinas are pretty appropriate. You are free! You DO NOT HAVE TO separate if it is a courtina ! Nonsense! It is pretty rare when courtinas work very well. It has to be a very high class of tango party there. Like in Portland, or Broadway Studios.. Collective meditation. Courtinas there are like breath of fresh air before the jump to the next meditation cycle. Courtinas are the part of the whole dancing pulse, they connect tandas together, serving as a thread for the event. Tanda - high, courtina - relief. It is a part of the dance, it mixes everything: legs, senses, surroundings, dresses, faces.. It has its own rhythm: antirhythm. And then tango music starts and from the chaos new dance is born. Magic! That what courtinas are for.. Igor. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi Dani (and Neil), Well, I look at it like this... Not everyone is going to clear the floor, since people sometimes dance more than a tanda together. So it's not my job as a DJ to _force_ them off. It's my job to mark the change between tandas. That's how I (and others) deal with the context we've got. To dictate a different manner of conduct, when it doesn't really matter all that much, is simply rude. After all, some of us aren't acting out of ignorance: we're adapting to the conditions at hand. As for people who dance to the cortinas... Well, if the DJ plays salsa or swing or whatever, who really cares? People come to dance, and even if they annoy me a little, it's hardly worth condemning them for the way they have fun. Honestly, I pay more attention to picking out my socks. Another matter, however, are the cortinas played before or after alternative sets... These can get genuinely confusing. Some DJs, I notice, don't even play a cortina before an alternative set-- a breaking of the pattern that just throws people off. After an alternative set, the cortina, I think, should be markedly NOT dance music, so that dancers understand what's going on. But for that matter, alternative sets also need to be selected with a bit of care... I once heard a DJ play an obscure Piazzolla number at a very well-attended milonga, and my partner and I were the only ones who started dancing to it. Everyone else just stood around confused. Reacting to the crowd, as he should have, the DJ faded it out after 45 seconds, pretended it was a cortina, and played a traditional tanda. I wanted to dance to the song, sure; but he acted appropriately, and clarified matters for the other 80 or so people present-- which is every DJ's primary function, once they've got their tandas and cortinas worked out. The crowd at hand comes first. Everything else comes third. Jake Spatz DC Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 17:18:26 -0600 From: "Brian Dunn" <brian@danceoftheheart.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: "'Tango-L'" <tango-l@mit.edu> Dear list, I like* the function of the cortina as Neil and Nina describe it. I've frequently observed the events they describe in Buenos Aires milongas, and appreciate the shared cultural context and social cohesion among the attendees that contributes to this phenomenon. I especially enjoy the longer cortinas in Buenos Aires, particularly with tandas of rhythmic tangos or milongas, because, combined with the tradition of not starting to dance in the first few bars of songs in mid-tanda, I get more "catch my breath" time between songs - this lowers my frequency-of-shirt-changes ;). I can very much appreciate Nina's emphasis on trying to pass along the best of tango traditions in new social contexts. But Nina, you must know that in the diverse United States tango scene, the idea that a woman's rep would suffer by staying with a partner across tanda boundaries is at best considered quaint and at worst laughable. Yet of course it makes sense in the culture of classic BsAs milongas. When you attend one, of course it's useful to understand the codes in effect at that milonga. The same is true for attending milongas in the USA. When in Rome, right? Otherwise, social communication breaks down, and everybody just gets confused everywhere. But returning to the original question: how long? We've been offering milongas in Boulder for five years, and Neil's rigid timeframe of 1.5 minutes per cortina doesn't seem appropriate, for one or more of the following reasons, among others not listed: - Most people aren't sitting at tables, but are sitting right next to the floor already - most people aren't drinking wine - most people aren't wearing glasses - most leaders on the floor, at least, pretty much already know where their next partners are. Who knows, maybe next year will be different - we're still working on getting people to enjoy using the cabeceo! Personally, here in Colorado I try to lead by example as a social dancer, following cortinas fairly strictly - but as a tango DJ, I provide cortinas for the paying customers to use as they see fit, and adjust their length dynamically: > I think your suggestion is favourable with me, Christopher. Assess the > length required on a 'need-to-effect' basis. I agree about the "need-to-effect" - but the effect I look for is when people stop leaving the floor. At our milongas, usually from 10 to 30 percent of the couples will stay together at a Cortina, depending on time of night, music in the previous set (almost everyone changes after an energetic milonga set) or expected music in the next set (while we often honor requests, we post projected playlists at our milongas so people know what's coming up, more or less). When the couples remaining on the floor show no sign of transitioning to new partners (i.e., they're standing together waiting for the music to start again), that cortina has had as much effect as it will have with that group of tango customers at that point, and any further "browbeating" by drawing out the cortina, as a spank-from-the-DJ or something, is likely to be interpreted as unnecessarily didactic, no fun, inappropriately parental, and otherwise not contributing to an atmosphere to which our patrons would want to return. So, ramp down the volume, hit "next" and continue. Who knows, maybe next year will be different... It's probably worth mentioning that our cortina tracks are all about one minute in length, including pre-engineered fade-out at the end, and I've never needed to go beyond for this above-described transition to occur. If, as a host/DJ, I get momentarily distracted from strict attention to this transition effect, I can also rest assured that, in our experience, everyone could tolerate up to one minute without ill effect. All the best, Brian Dunn Dance of the Heart Boulder, Colorado USA www.danceoftheheart.com "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time" Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 20:13:36 -0500 From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: brian@danceoftheheart.com Cc: 'Tango-L' <tango-l@mit.edu> Brian Dunn wrote: > Dear list, > > I like the function of the cortina as Neil and Nina describe it. I've > frequently observed the events they describe in Buenos Aires milongas, and > appreciate the shared cultural context and social cohesion among the > attendees that contributes to this phenomenon. I especially enjoy the longer > cortinas in Buenos Aires, particularly with tandas of rhythmic tangos or > milongas, because, combined with the tradition of not starting to dance in > the first few bars of songs in mid-tanda, I get more "catch my breath" time > between songs - this lowers my frequency-of-shirt-changes ;). > > I can very much appreciate Nina's emphasis on trying to pass along the best > of tango traditions in new social contexts. But Nina, you must know that in > the diverse United States tango scene, the idea that a woman's rep would > suffer by staying with a partner across tanda boundaries is at best > considered quaint and at worst laughable. Yet of course it makes sense in > the culture of classic BsAs milongas. When you attend one, of course it's > useful to understand the codes in effect at that milonga. The same is true > for attending milongas in the USA. When in Rome, right? Otherwise, social > communication breaks down, and everybody just gets confused everywhere. > There is one really good reason to force/push/kick people to partner changes at cortinas, which will be valid across all cultures: the notion that great partners are something we might want to share with others. It doesn't usually get my goat, but a couple of times at festivals, a tanda of Di Sarli/Rufino or another fave comes on and I'm looking for a particular partner, and she's been glues to the same person for an hour. Maybe she wants to be there. Maybe she doesn't know how to say no. Maybe I shouldn't get annoyed at at all. But if its great, that greatness ought ot get around a bit, I think. This is after all a social dance. > <snippage> >> I think your suggestion is favourable with me, Christopher. Assess the >> length required on a 'need-to-effect' basis. >> > I agree about the "need-to-effect" - but the effect I look for is when > people stop leaving the floor. At our milongas, usually from 10 to 30 > percent of the couples will stay together at a Cortina, depending on time of > night, music in the previous set (almost everyone changes after an energetic > milonga set) or expected music in the next set (while we often honor > requests, we post projected playlists at our milongas so people know what's > coming up, more or less). > Actually, this is what I do too. The additional browbeating just distracts from the primary purpose, which is to have fun. Brian, my best to Deb. Over and out. Christopher Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 20:01:12 -0600 From: nina@earthnet.net Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) format="flowed" Quoting Brian Dunn <brian@danceoftheheart.com>: > But Nina, you must know that in > the diverse United States tango scene, the idea that a woman's rep would > suffer by staying with a partner across tanda boundaries is at best > considered quaint and at worst laughable. Hi, Brian and everyone, It always makes me laugh when men comment on two things - the questions of reputation of women and the follower's technique in tango. Considering that most men do not hear much of the gossip that is being passed around (and do not dance walking mostly backwards in 4" heels), anything that they say cannot really be taken very seriously. Brian, everyone notices at the milongas in BsAs and in the United States pretty much everything - who dances with whom, who does not dance with whom, who was turned down, who is upset, who danced how many tandas with whom, who has a cold and sneazed 30 minues earlier, etc. As remarkable as this sounds, even to me who is writing aout this, it is true. I am astounded every time I hear rumors from people, or observations that I may not have noticed myself. Basically, if people do not want to be gossiped about, they will watch their actions now just as they did decades ago in a more traditional settings of BsAs milongas. We want to fantasize about being more free, more independent, etc, but it remains a fantasy. On the other hand, like Oscar Wilde once said "It is better to be talked about than not talked about." So go figure! Warm regards, Nina Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 01:23:12 -0600 From: "Brian Dunn" <brian@danceoftheheart.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: "'Tango-L'" <tango-l@mit.edu> Dear list, Nina, you wrote: >>> Considering that most men do not hear much of the gossip that is being passed around... <<< I won't argue with "most men don't" - But some of us at least have quite reputable and reliable sources, you might be surprised ;>. As far as follower's technique goes, generally I am grateful to be able to refer those seeking answers for such questions to my lovely partner. ;> ;> >>> Brian, everyone notices at the milongas in BsAs and in the United States pretty much everything... <<< Agreed! It's one thing that makes milongas fun - the social buzz of the scene, the heightened-adrenalin state of watching and being watched. But in the experience of my sources, including my expatriate single female long-time-BsAs-resident friends, the consequences of the behavior in question are very different in BsAs and the USA. You may not like it, but misrepresenting the situation won't help your cause. >>> People have to get off the dance floor after one set. In tango, if they do not, usually it is the woman's reputation that will be at stake. It is like leaving a milonga with a man, especially if the lady has arrived alone. <<< Pity this poor fallen tanguera, this pathetic trollop who shamelessly destroys her virtuous good name throughout the tightly knit USA tango community by foolishly remaining out on the pista in full view during a cortina with the same partner - but wait, here's the good news! Since, as you say, everyone notices everything, everyone at this milonga in the USA noticed that she and her partner didn't start dancing until the last song of the previous tanda, and understands that they stuck out the cortina because they want to enjoy a decent amount of dancing with each other. Whew! ;> ;> ;> All the best, Brian Dunn Dance of the Heart Boulder, Colorado USA www.danceoftheheart.com "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time" Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 06:43:08 -0600 From: nina@earthnet.net Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) format="flowed" Hello, again, everyone, Brian wrote > Pity this poor fallen tanguera, this pathetic trollop who shamelessly > destroys her virtuous good name throughout the tightly knit USA tango > community by foolishly remaining out on the pista in full view during a > cortina with the same partner - but wait, here's the good news! > > Since, as you say, everyone notices everything, everyone at this milonga in > the USA noticed that she and her partner didn't start dancing until the last > song of the previous tanda, and understands that they stuck out the cortina > because they want to enjoy a decent amount of dancing with each other. Some people behave badly. They just do. It is disrespectful to ask a woman to dance for the last song. Usually, men who do that are doing charity and will use cortina as an excuse to stop dancing with that partner. In Buesno Aires, there are other customs that are followed by the women - never accept an invidation after the first tango of a tanda, never accept an invitation from ayone who comes up from behind ans verbally invites to dance, etc., but one has to live in BsAs to learn these subtleties. There is a really strong reason for each one of these. Of course, each person is free to follow them or not, but they are alwso responsible for the consequences. I am writing fromt he experience because I broke every one of the customs at some point while living in BsAs. What I advocate for is that the professionals in the world of tango, i.e. teachers, organizers and DJs do not condone such bad behaviors by having no backbone to doing well what they are supposed to be doing in their professinal roles. To say that people have a differenct dance experience in the US and therefore can throw away the customs that promote respect, is a lame excuse that leads to poor quality of tango events. The respectful customs of tango will not stand up for themselves. But, on the other hand, maybe I am in the minority expecting respect in tango. I once was in Boudler, Colorado at a book store. A man opened a door for me and I thanked him. He said that recently a woman was rude to him because he openend a dor for her and told him that she could do it herself. Its like the ancient saying goes "People get the government that they deserve", people get the tango experience that they deserve. Warmest regards to all, Nina Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 14:02 +0100 (BST) From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com Nina wrote > What I advocate for is that the professionals in the world of tango, > i.e. teachers, organizers and DJs do not condone such bad behaviors by > having no backbone to doing well what they are supposed to be doing in > their professinal roles. > But, on the other hand, maybe I am in the minority expecting respect > in tango. You are surely in the minority in expecting respect for the idea that dancers should look to tango workers as custodians of standards of behaviour. If that should start to happen, god help social tango. Chris Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 11:05:47 -0600 From: nina@earthnet.net Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: tango-l@mit.edu format="flowed" Chris wrote: > You are surely in the minority in expecting respect for the idea that > dancers should look to tango workers as custodians of standards of > behaviour. If that should start to happen, god help social tango. Anyone can choose to be ignorant. That is why the milongas organized by people with low standards reek of ignorance. DJs who cannot figure out why dancers need cortinas, dancers who do not care what music they dance to, since it is background noise and is all the same, women who are desperate enough to accept a man's invitation after one or two tangos of a tanda had passed, etc. - all reek of poor boundaries and lack of respect for pretty much everything a partner dance requires, incuding ones own self. Teachers, organizers, and DJs are expected to know more than others about their work. Personally, I am tired of the tango slobs, social dancers, professional, DJs, etc. Warm regards to all, Nina Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 17:35:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: nina@earthnet.net, tango-l@mit.edu I endorse Nina's acute insight. I see this all the time. People turning up at milongas in torn jeans, trainers, scruffy t-shirts, trying to dance to anything that's playing regardless of whether or not it's tango. Sailing across the centre of the dancefloor, teaching on the social dancefloor (this REALLY gets me!), nodding acknowledgement of friends arriving/leaving during what's supposed to be an intimate, connected, focused engagement with the current dancing partner ("yeah, speak to you later. I'm dancing just now, Don't go away until I speak with you. Cheers")... etc etc etc. Grrrrr.... Regards Dani Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:35:31 +0200 From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: nina@earthnet.net Cc: tango-l@mit.edu nina@earthnet.net wrote: > We want to fantasize about being more > free, more independent, etc, but it remains a fantasy. No, it isn't. Stop caring about gossip and you're on the path to freedom. I'll proclaim it loud and clear: I don't play traditional tandas. I mix orchestras. I know what I'm doing, and very often I do things just to wrongfoot people's expectations, just to challenge them. People will change partners at natural borders ,which there will always be (unless you're stupid as a DJ), or they won't (and as I and others in this thread have observed, some partners will cling like leeches to good dancers regardless of whether there are tandas or not). My attitude had always been that there's room for something different, and if some people think there isn't, then they are free to walk. I don't do that because of my big ego (even though it towers above the ego of many), but because there are* people who find some conventions stifling, especially if things like tandas start to act like crutches on the unimaginative DJs who play safe for an entire evening, boring their audience to death (unfortunately, from what people tell me, there is little comfort in the fact that this torture is inflicted in a culturally correct way). Note that I'm not saying that you can't be a decent DJ if you use tandas, just that there are other ways to structure an evening -- and I'll confess, I find it actually more hard work to play a sparkling set with tandas, cortinas and the use of exactly one orchestra and period per tanda - my hats off to those who can (with ease). Oh, people who walk are also free to gossip about me - there's no law against it. People who just read my heretical take on tandas and don't know me at all are also free to gossip - I don't care. I am what I am, and I'm not forcing the entire world to hug me, nor even to respect my choices (though the latter would be the Christian thing to do, of course). Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:48:42 +0200 From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) nina@earthnet.net wrote: > To say that people have a different dance > experience in the US and therefore can throw away the customs that > promote respect, There is more than one way to promote respect. Courtesy exists in many cultures, and I sincerely prefer it to any form of codified politeness. Yes, we can "throw away" customs - if there's something else that take their place. Social conventions aren't the same in Europe, the US, and BsAs, so the effects of one particular set of customs on an audience isn't the same - I routinely observe people acting exceptionally rude even in a setting that observes traditional customs, and they aren't punished for it (whereas social control in BsAs would soon make minced meat out of them). Perhaps there are alternatives to be developed that are better embedded in the local social context. In Belgium, the more loosely flowing milongas tend to be the more friendly ones as well - where people actually enjoy themselves and appreciate the fun other dancers can have; the atmosphere is the result of genuine respect rather than codified social conduct. It is those milongas that try to follow the form (but not the soul) of BsAs milongas in which you tend to see the most conniving, gossiping and back-stabbing. And then there are a couple of milongas (not coincidentally, usually organised by Argentines) that manage to give the best of both worlds. Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:53:14 +0200 From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) Cc: tango-l@mit.edu nina@earthnet.net wrote: > Anyone can choose to be ignorant. Anyone can also be well aware of conventions and choose to go on another path. Those that do aren't necessarily ignorant. Thinking that anyone who doesn't follow your conventions is necessarily ignorant, heretical, or doesn't deserve to mingle with you, is an exercise in ethnocentricity. Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:00:07 +0200 From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ wrote: > People turning up at milongas in torn jeans, trainers, scruffy t-shirts, As far as I'm concerned, they're free to do so. But then, I don't see it as inconsiderate in my social setting, given they're hardly preventing anyone from dancing (or even dressing more smartly). > trying to dance to anything that's playing regardless of whether or not it's > tango. So WHAT? There is no law against looking stupid, is there? It's another matter if they can't navigate their way around the dancefloor when there is* a crowd, but if anyone wants to dance to a cortina, it's their business, isn't it? > Sailing across the centre of the dancefloor, Rude. > teaching on the social dancefloor (this REALLY gets me!), Rude. > nodding acknowledgement of friends arriving/leaving Terribly inconsiderate to their dancing partner, and an utter lack of respect. Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:48:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>, nina@earthnet.net Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Huge misdirected ego indeed! It is laughingly obvious that you cannot force the world do anything - then why do you believe that "the world" should be interested in your proclamations?? It is equally obvious that you try doing some "forcing" on the unfortunate dancers at your milongas.. Sincerely, Lucia Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> escribi?: nina@earthnet.net wrote: > We want to fantasize about being more > free, more independent, etc, but it remains a fantasy. No, it isn't. Stop caring about gossip and you're on the path to freedom. I'll proclaim it loud and clear: I don't play traditional tandas. I mix orchestras. I know what I'm doing, and very often I do things just to wrongfoot people's expectations, just to challenge them. People will change partners at natural borders ,which there will always be (unless you're stupid as a DJ), or they won't (and as I and others in this thread have observed, some partners will cling like leeches to good dancers regardless of whether there are tandas or not). My attitude had always been that there's room for something different, and if some people think there isn't, then they are free to walk. I don't do that because of my big ego (even though it towers above the ego of many), but because there are people who find some conventions stifling, especially if things like tandas start to act like crutches on the unimaginative DJs who play safe for an entire evening, boring their audience to death (unfortunately, from what people tell me, there is little comfort in the fact that this torture is inflicted in a culturally correct way). Note that I'm not saying that you can't be a decent DJ if you use tandas, just that there are other ways to structure an evening -- and I'll confess, I find it actually more hard work to play a sparkling set with tandas, cortinas and the use of exactly one orchestra and period per tanda - my hats off to those who can (with ease). Oh, people who walk are also free to gossip about me - there's no law against it. People who just read my heretical take on tandas and don't know me at all are also free to gossip - I don't care. I am what I am, and I'm not forcing the entire world to hug me, nor even to respect my choices (though the latter would be the Christian thing to do, of course). Pregunt?. Respond?. Descubr?. Todo lo que quer?as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, est? en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). Probalo ya! Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:29 +0200 From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Lucia wrote: > Huge misdirected ego indeed! > > It is laughingly obvious that you cannot force the world do anything Quite. I only express my point of view. > It is equally obvious that you try doing some "forcing" on the > unfortunate dancers at your milongas.. No, it isn't, and you're presuming too much if you're saying they were unfortunate. I don't think you have attented a milonga at which I ever was a DJ, nor read the minds of those that were present, so I'll let those that have been there be the judge, rather than you ;). If you have trouble believing the whole world may not be wired the way you are -- unless the poor bereft souls don't dance tango -- then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:11:23 -0400 From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: al@sgi.com, nina@earthnet.net Cc: tango-l@mit.edu >I'll proclaim it loud and clear: I don't play traditional tandas. >I mix orchestras. I know what I'm doing, and very often I do things >just to wrongfoot people's expectations, just to challenge them. Thanks for the heads up Alexis. I will add your milongas to my "stay away from" list :-) >My attitude had always been that there's room for something different, >and if some people think there isn't, then they are free to walk. Sadly, with the proliferation of "new", "improved", 'evolved", etc. non-tango dance events, some poor folks have nowhere to walk to..... >I don't do that because of my big ego (even though it towers above the >ego of many), but because there are people who find some conventions >stifling, especially if things like tandas start to act like crutches >on the unimaginative DJs who play safe for an entire evening, >boring their audience to death (unfortunately, from what people tell >me, there is little comfort in the fact that this torture is >inflicted in a culturally correct way). The only torture I suffer is at milongas where the music is nondanceable, tandas are non existent and the DJ's sorry attempts at individuality, creativity, uniqueness or cleverness result in pathetic, unbearable periods of time. The use of tandas and traditional dance music are not crutches any more than the use of the proper, high quality ingredients in the preparation of a classical food recipe. Inflicting pain and suffering on tango lovers from the DJ booth is inexcusable. Doubly so if it's done from a narcisistic, egocentric, arrogant self delusion. Please spare me the BS. There is way too much crap being perpetrated under the Argentine tango name these days. Sadly, even some Argentineans are participating in the sell out of the tango. Shame on them and shame on everybody who's bent on the destruction of the classic Argentine tango. Manuel Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:35:03 +0200 From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) Cc: tango-l@mit.edu WHITE 95 R wrote: > The use of tandas and traditional dance > music are not crutches any more than the use of the proper, high quality > ingredients in the preparation of a classical food recipe. The high quality ingredients, of course, are the music, not the cortinas. Oh, in case you missed it, I wasn't implying that tandas were necessarily crutches - but they sometimes are (if the DJ is bad). It's not because a bad DJ is playing with tandas of one orchestra and period, never plays anything that isn't from the 20s and 30s, always plays orchestral music just to be safe, and is using cortinas that he suddenly becomes a good one - colouring between the lines is neither a sufficient nor, in my opinion, a necessary condition for being a good DJ. I'm advocating for tolerance and diversity, not trying to force-feed my personal way of DJing on all and sundry. > > Inflicting pain and suffering on tango lovers from the DJ booth is > inexcusable. I don't. I'm actively trying to be in tune with my audience, despite the lack of cortinas and that my tandas are composed of more than one song or more than one orchestra. Sometimes I am a bit mischievous (and you can be mischievous with traditional music just as well), but I don't think that wrongfooting people or surprising them is always necessarily torturing them. As I said, you haven't attended a milonga at which I was a DJ, so you're presuming too much. As being in tune with an audience is hard work, I force myself to use set lists as little as possible, and to improvise as much as possible. I am at heart a dancer (which cannot be said of all the DJs), so I'm usually aware of things -- if I'm not aching to dance instead of DJing, I'm not doing a great job. [Fortunately for "all" of you, I like dancing so much that I only DJ on invitation these days.] For the record, I do use tandas (I find it horrible when you don't know whether the next song would be a vlas, tango or milonga), I do mark the end of a tanda with a short pause (5 seconds) and I do use traditional music (though I won't, as some do, consider tangos by the great orchestras played at the end of the forties heretical), but most of my tandas have a beginning, an end, and evolve in between these (and sometimes blend in with the next tanda, one tanda ending on a tango by one orchestra and a tanda of valses starting with one from the same orchestra), so they are stubbornly idiosyncratic. When I do use a cortina (if people want them, I'll give them what they want), I: -use always the same throughout the evening (that usually makes it eminently clear it's a cortina, which in Belgium is rather hard) -keep it short, because long ones would kill a milonga where I live, and that's because people change partners within a tanda without blinking (fortunately, navigating to the outside before they do so). Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:48:32 +0200 From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Alexis Cousein wrote: > I don't. I'm actively trying to be in tune with my audience, despite > the lack of cortinas and that my tandas are composed of more > than one song or more than one orchestra. Lest someone think tandas can be composed of one song, I meant to write, of course, "composed of songs by more than one orchestra". Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:50:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Comments in-line Lucia :-> Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> escribi?: > It is equally obvious that you try doing some "forcing" on the > unfortunate dancers at your milongas.. No, it isn't, and you're presuming too much if you're saying they were unfortunate. I don't think you have attented a milonga at which I ever was a DJ, nor read the minds of those that were present, so I'll let those that have been there be the judge, rather than you ;). >> Language, written or not, is the vehicle to convey thoughts. You went to some length in your mailings to convey the type of music and the atmosphere at you milongas: > torn jeans, trainers, scruffy t-shirts > trying to dance to anything that's playing regardless of whether or not it's > tango. > very often I do things just to wrongfoot people's expectations > [if] people think there isn't, then they are free to walk. >> Quite clear, and enough, wouldn't you agree?? If you have trouble believing the whole world may not be wired the way you are -- unless the poor bereft souls don't dance tango -- then we'll just have to agree to disagree. >> I'd rather think that you are the hard-wired. You just told us that people should dance your music or hit the road, isn't it ? Pregunt?. Respond?. Descubr?. Todo lo que quer?as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, est? en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). Probalo ya! Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:03:04 +0200 From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Lucia wrote: >> You went to some length in your mailings to convey the type of music >> and the atmosphere at you milongas: > >> torn jeans, trainers, scruffy t-shirts >> trying to dance to anything that's playing regardless of whether or not it's > > tango. Again, you're presuming too much. I do dress up, and so do most people I know, but I do insist that it's their own affair. I don't play undanceable music, but if someone else dances to anything including a cortina, it's his affair. Accepting someone else has another viewpoint is not embracing it. >> very often I do things just to wrongfoot people's expectations >> [if] people think there isn't, then they are free to walk. > > Quite clear, and enough, wouldn't you agree?? No. As I said, wrongfooting people's expectations doesn't mean you have to torture them. Surprising them is quite enough. > I'd rather think that you are the hard-wired. You just told us that > people should dance your music or hit the road, isn't it ? No, I didn't. First of all, it's not "my music" - the music is that of the interpreters and the composers. Secondly, I do want to play music they'll dance to (that's the function of a DJ, after all), but I'll resist any attempts at being forced into the mould of conformity (as far as DJ style is concerned) by a vocal minority just by arguments of second-hand authority. If people are obviously dancing and enjoying themselves, frankly, I don't care if I'm a heretic. But yes, individual people should either dance to the music I select or hit the road - I'm not going to chain them to a chair if they're not enjoying themselves. Which doesn't mean there's no interaction at all; if a significant minority disagrees with what I'm playing and it isn't offset by others having more fun than a barrel of monkeys, it's time to change (which is easy, given I usually have no set list). Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:14:20 -0600 From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) format="flowed" Manuel wrote: > Inflicting pain and suffering on tango lovers from the DJ booth is > inexcusable. Doubly so if it's done from a narcisistic, egocentric, > arrogant self delusion. Please spare me the BS. There is way too much > crap being perpetrated under the Argentine tango name these days. > Sadly, even some Argentineans are participating in the sell out of the > tango. Shame on them and shame on everybody who's bent on the > destruction of the classic Argentine tango. Hello, Lucia, Manuel, and everyone, Thank you for your e-mails! I am with you and I am grateful for your clear, loud voices. I have come to a conclusion that we need the tango slobs. All of them - DJs, teachers, etc. We need them in tango communities as a filter. Dancers know the difference and are able to choose. Even the rank beginners! We also need them to help certain essence of tango to emerge through contrast. People feel it at their core when the music is good. But the good music will not be appreciated if it is always taken for granted. So we need events with bad music to know the difference. Warmest regards, Nina Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:36:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Panchenko <apanchenko@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) So while we have tango snobs and the tango slobs duking it out..... I guess we shall just relax, dance and enjoy. ----- Original Message ---- From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:14:20 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) Manuel wrote: > Inflicting pain and suffering on tango lovers from the DJ booth is > inexcusable. Doubly so if it's done from a narcisistic, egocentric, > arrogant self delusion. Please spare me the BS. There is way too much > crap being perpetrated under the Argentine tango name these days. > Sadly, even some Argentineans are participating in the sell out of the > tango. Shame on them and shame on everybody who's bent on the > destruction of the classic Argentine tango. Hello, Lucia, Manuel, and everyone, Thank you for your e-mails! I am with you and I am grateful for your clear, loud voices. I have come to a conclusion that we need the tango slobs. All of them - DJs, teachers, etc. We need them in tango communities as a filter. Dancers know the difference and are able to choose. Even the rank beginners! We also need them to help certain essence of tango to emerge through contrast. People feel it at their core when the music is good. But the good music will not be appreciated if it is always taken for granted. So we need events with bad music to know the difference. Warmest regards, Nina Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:25:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) Hi Nina, This reminds me of my old-standing gripe with the good museums, and albums and monographs for that matter. As all of them contain great art to the exclusion of mediocre or poor, the lack of comparison opportunity contributes to excellence being lost on non-specialist viewers. Lucia Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> escribi?: Manuel wrote: > Inflicting pain and suffering on tango lovers from the DJ booth is > inexcusable. Doubly so if it's done from a narcisistic, egocentric, > arrogant self delusion. Please spare me the BS. There is way too much > crap being perpetrated under the Argentine tango name these days. > Sadly, even some Argentineans are participating in the sell out of the > tango. Shame on them and shame on everybody who's bent on the > destruction of the classic Argentine tango. Hello, Lucia, Manuel, and everyone, Thank you for your e-mails! I am with you and I am grateful for your clear, loud voices. I have come to a conclusion that we need the tango slobs. All of them - DJs, teachers, etc. We need them in tango communities as a filter. Dancers know the difference and are able to choose. Even the rank beginners! We also need them to help certain essence of tango to emerge through contrast. People feel it at their core when the music is good. But the good music will not be appreciated if it is always taken for granted. So we need events with bad music to know the difference. Warmest regards, Nina Pregunt?. Respond?. Descubr?. Todo lo que quer?as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, est? en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). Probalo ya! Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:41:07 -0400 From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s)https://by114fd.bay114.hotm >From: Alex Panchenko <apanchenko@sbcglobal.net> >So while we have tango snobs and the tango slobs duking it out..... > >I guess we shall just relax, dance and enjoy. Alex, I don't think that a love for the authentic danceable tango music makes one a snob. Anyway, I have a question fgor you. What kind of music and athmosphere does it take for you to "just relax, dance and enjoy"? Sincerely, Manuel Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:03:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Panchenko <apanchenko@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s Manuel, I do not have an exact rule for relaxing and enjoying. I know that I can relax, dance and enjoy without requiring a specific order of music in a tanda or length of a cortina. At the same time, I respect the opposite point of view as much as my own. To explain the use of the term 'snob', I would like to point out the phonetic likeness of 'snob' and 'slob'. The comparison seemed fit for the situation since one of the terms was already brought up. Respectfully. Alex ----- Original Message ---- From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 12:41:07 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s)https://by114fd.bay114.hotm >From: Alex Panchenko <apanchenko@sbcglobal.net> >So while we have tango snobs and the tango slobs duking it out..... > >I guess we shall just relax, dance and enjoy. Alex, I don't think that a love for the authentic danceable tango music makes one a snob. Anyway, I have a question fgor you. What kind of music and athmosphere does it take for you to "just relax, dance and enjoy"? Sincerely, Manuel Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:28:33 -0600 From: "Brian Dunn" <brian@danceoftheheart.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: "'Lucia'" <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>, "'Nina Pesochinsky'" Lucia, you wrote: >>> This reminds me of my old-standing gripe with the good museums, and albums and monographs for that matter. As all of them contain great art to the exclusion of mediocre or poor, the lack of comparison opportunity contributes to excellence being lost on non-specialist viewers. <<< The publisher of the New York Times said, "People pay us for what we don't print" - i.e., they pay us for acting as a filter. It sounds like you're looking for an art/museum analog of books I've seen like "Web Pages That Suck" - a collection of prevalent yet arguably bad web design practices, as expressed in publicly accessible web pages so everyone can see for themselves at minimum expense to the author. Such books then present the desired practices by counterexample. Nina, you wrote: >>> I have come to a conclusion that we need the tango slobs. All of them - DJs, teachers, etc. We need them in tango communities as a filter. Dancers know the difference and are able to choose. Even the rank beginners! We also need them to help certain essence of tango to emerge through contrast. People feel it at their core when the music is good. <<< The Tango-DJ analog to the NYTimes publisher's statement would be "people pay us for what we don't play." Nina is thus right on the money - events and DJs with demonstrably bad music will simply wither away, never even gaining a foothold. Therefore, any events/DJs/teachers that demonstrate a track record of sustainable and/or growing popularity must by definition be exonerated from the designation of slobhood. The market speaks - as Nina puts it so eloquently, "even rank beginners can tell...they feel it at their core when the music is good"! But there's another side to Nina's point: what if no one is holding up the "Good" sufficiently high into view so that the contrast can become evident? In that case, perhaps even the discerning rank beginners might get confused, without a clear standard of comparison. A passionately devoted longtime tango DJ from Bremen was in Buenos Aires to collect old cassettes from Zival's and elsewhere, and also to participate in a Gustavo & Giselle seminario. Not being first & foremost a dancer, he lamented the situation in his community in Bremen, which he said was declining in size. "We need people who dance in an inspiring fashion to the great old music - people need to see an example, something to aspire to." So there's something for partisans to sink their teeth into. Every time you dance, you are teaching those who watch you - so "put all the meat on the grill!" when your favorite music is on. For our part, we love to show the video of Gustavo & Giselle dancing in LA in 2003 to Di Sarli's "Don Juan" to people who think that dancing to "old music" is boring. ;) All the best, Brian Dunn Dance of the Heart Boulder, Colorado USA www.danceoftheheart.com "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time" Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:37:02 -0600 From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: tango-l@mit.edu format="flowed" Brian wrote: > Therefore, any events/DJs/teachers that demonstrate a > track record of sustainable and/or growing popularity must by definition be > exonerated from the designation of slobhood. The market speaks - as Nina > puts it so eloquently, "even rank beginners can tell...they feel it at their > core when the music is good" Popularity needs to be carefully assessed. Is the event popular with good dancers or does it attract only the beginners who do not yet know much or dancers who are eternal beginners due to their "slobbery"? There are events to which dancers of quality would not show up. Such an event might be financially successful through its popularity with dancers who do not know any better, but completely snobbed by the dancers that bring the quality of dancing that Brian is talking about to the event. People who seek quality of an experience will not settle for mediocrity. It becomes an issue of values, experience and trade offs - does one want to go to a milonga populated by people who do not dance well, with DJ music that is annoying at best or should one go to the theatre or a movie instead? It is all about what one is willing to sell out. Many years ago, a great dancer told me that there is no reason to dance every tanda. If one dances twice or three times, or even only once during an evening, but with an incredible partner (increidble for this person - after all, what may be an apple of my eye is apple sauce to someone else!) and to the perfect for that moment music, then being at the milonga for hours was worth it. Warmest regards to all, Nina Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:59:10 +0200 From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s To: Alex Panchenko <apanchenko@sbcglobal.net> Cc: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu Alex Panchenko wrote: > Alex, I don't think that a love for the authentic danceable tango music > makes one a snob. If I recall, I didn't advocate not using old music (if you're trying to refer to the exchanges I participated in). It's forcing me to play it in a particular order cast in stone I object to. In a tango tanda, I reserve the right to play three d'Arienzo from old 20s to the end of the 40s just to show how much he himself evolved, and complement it with another (good) track from another orchestra from the later period -- sometimes from an orchestra not too dissimilar, and sometimes slightly contrasting. Or I'll start with rythmical tangos but slowly evolve to more lyrical ones just before I'll start playing vals - or just before a tanda of milongas instead, just to wrongfoot people when they take me for granted, starting with milongas that are also more lyrical and slower so that it doesn't jar too much. And yes, if I blend in a tanda with the next one, I feel that (with social customs being what they are here), more than 5 seconds pause between the tangos and the valses (or milongas) would break the spell, so I might not play a cortina. To some, that's all heresy. If there's more than one orchestra in a tanda, if the track recordings are separated by more than two years, or even if a track sounds better than the other ones in a tanda, if not all of them have exactly the same pulse, if there's no cortina, or if they even hear a hint of a singer (in particular -God forbid- a female singer), they're astonished that, not only I do not get incinerated on the spot by the True Tango gods, but people (the ruffians!) are actually continuing to dance, depriving them of the justification to nag incessantly for me to play (just) Biaggi or 20s d'Arienzo for the next tanda, even though they just had two tandas of music in similar style. Just in case you missed "to some" above, if an audience collectively wants a certain kind of music, that's what they'll get - but they might have to ask someone else to DJ next time around, as I don't like to be fenced in. BTW, talking about "old music", I don't know what you mean by that - some interpret this extremely restrictively. I vehemently disagree that music of the late 40s is unfit to dance on, and also insist that I shouldn't ban all tracks that happen to have a singer singing on it, just because some tango fascists will insist it's "confusing" to dancers just because they're too thick to interpret music with more melodic lines. I'll also reserve the right to play 1955 Paris "Bando" and "Preparense" even though they're played by the Antichrist aka Piazolla. So there. I might even (at the end of the evening, when the mood is more mellow), play one rendition of "Oblivion" just to chase the bad spirits away, but that usually doesn't work - at three o'clock in the morning, even some staunch traditionalists tend to grab a favourite partner to glue themselves to while dancing on that track ;). Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 13:05:59 -0700 From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s) To: <tango-l@mit.edu> Nina wrote: "Many years ago, a great dancer told me that there is no reason to dance every tanda. If one dances twice or three times, or even only once during an evening, but with an incredible partner (incredible for this person - after all, what may be an apple of my eye is apple sauce to someone else!) and to the perfect for that moment music, then being at the milonga for hours was worth it." Does it mean that one SHOULD NOT DANCE every tanda? Igor Polk. Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:14:17 +0200 From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s Cc: Alex Panchenko <apanchenko@sbcglobal.net>, WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu Alexis Cousein wrote: > Alex Panchenko wrote [no he didn't]: >> Alex, I don't think that a love for the authentic danceable tango music >> makes one a snob. Of course, it isn't Alex who wrote this - I nuked the wrong attribution line. Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:07:59 -0400 From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s >Manuel, > >I do not have an exact rule for relaxing and enjoying. I know that I can >relax, dance and enjoy without requiring a specific order of music in a >tanda or length of a cortina. At the same time, I respect the opposite >point of view as much as my own. Fair enough, I don't expect an exact rule specially since I don't have one either (-; My question should have been more along the lines of your predilection. Do you prefer conventional, let's say, classic tango dancing to tango music such as Darienzo with Echague or D'Agostino with Vargas or perhaps dancing a freer, less structured style of dance to music such as Narcotango, Gotan, or Greek, Turkish or other ethnic genres..... Perhaps you are in the middle and you don't really care one way or another. Perhaps you enjoy everything..... I'm curious, I really don't understand the appeal of non-tango music for tango-like dance. I guess I'm a bit of a purist. I like tango music, the traditional kind like they play in the milongas of BAires and I enjoy dancing tango in a traditional way to the rhythm of the music. I feel the same way about other genres of music and dance that I enjoy. I no more wish to dance tango to some French song that I want to dance Salsa to the Gypsy Kings or Swing to classic rock. > >To explain the use of the term 'snob', I would like to point out the >phonetic likeness of 'snob' and 'slob'. The comparison seemed fit for the >situation since one of the terms was already brought up. OK, no big deal. I just don't care to see a discussion degenerate into name calling or facile labeling. Sincerely, Manuel Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:46:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s To: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Alexis, In your message you provided more pointers to your musical taste. From what I gather, I find it interesting, and not bad at all, although regarding the dancing selection, we differ. My comments in-line. Lucia Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> escribi?:> In a tango tanda, I reserve the right to play three d'Arienzo from old 20s to the end of the 40s just to show how much he himself evolved, Is this dancers or a listening club that you play to? dancers couldn't care less about D'Arienzo's evolution. Spare yourself the effort ;-) > Or I'll start with rythmical tangos but slowly evolve to more lyrical ones just before I'll start playing vals - Matter of opinion, but most dancers yearn for change of style at the end of a tanda. The "introduction" that you play waters down both the current tanda and the surprise of the following one. > To some, that's all heresy. If there's more than one orchestra in a tanda, if the track recordings are separated by more than two years,[snip] For many, if they like a particular song, would like to never end. Playing four of the same, more or less, is good. Dancers do not conduct comparative musical studies when dancing; some DJs do while playing... > or if they even hear a hint of a singer (in particular -God forbid- a female singer), they're astonished that, not only I do not get incinerated on the spot by the True Tango gods, These are False Gods!!! The majority of vocal tangos are the best ever composed and recorded. Instrumental Tangos may have a mor pronounced rhythm, but where is the warmth and the musical line of the vocal ones?? > [True Gods] nag incessantly for me to play (just) Biaggi or 20s d'Arienzo for the next tanda, even though they just had two tandas of music in similar style. False Gods, again!! > I vehemently disagree that music of the late 40s is unfit to dance on, and also insist that I shouldn't ban all tracks that happen to have a singer singing on it, just because some tango fascists will insist it's "confusing" to dancers just because they're too thick to interpret music with more melodic lines. Wholeheartedly agree with you... > I'll also reserve the right to play 1955 Paris "Bando" and "Preparense" eventhough they're played by the Antichrist aka Piazolla. So there. Although Preparense is not dancing music, and IMO shouldn't be played for that purpose, it is great music, and so are some Piazzola early tangos. Pregunt?. Respond?. Descubr?. Todo lo que quer?as saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, est? en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). Probalo ya! Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 21:28:58 +0200 From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s To: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar> Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Lucia wrote: > Alexis, > dancers couldn't care less about D'Arienzo's evolution. It introduces subtle changes in interpretation when you dance these. It keeps dancers on their toes, and it helps to engage them. At least I like sets like that, and my musical taste behind the mixing panels betrays my preferences when I'm on the other side. > The "introduction" that you play waters down both the current tanda > and the surprise of the following one. I like to have constant (but small) surprises - if only because if they're confined to changes across a tanda, I won't be experiencing them with the same dancing partner. My preference only, of course. And as I said, across tandas, you never know whether a transition I have "pre-announced" actually happens the way you expect it to - you might be wrong. Even I frequently don't know that much in advance. > For many, if they like a particular song, would like to never end. For others, having four songs that are exact clones (or close to exact clones) makes it less interesting - after all, if you have a partner for one tanda, it's not entirely uninteresting to see how the symbiosis works or doesn't depending on the song - and how you can make it work more and more... Sure, some people will "select the partner according to the tanda" and don't need to explore this because they know exactly with wihch partner they want to dance music with attributes X Y Z. Let's just say that they also tend to select partners like they like their tandas - without too much sense for adventure, and largely with a restricted set of partners they like. I don't like to cater only for them, not even when they think they (and the partners they deem worthy of a dance) are the pick of the crop and all the others are worthless peons. Note I don't just randomly put bits and pieces together, or even follow my own line of exploration rigidly - I ALWAYS listen to the next track while a track is playing, to get a feel of whether the transition jars or not, and if it jars, I toss the next track or try to find something which will fit in between - when I'm dancing at a milonga, I really hate DJs who press buttons on their laptops filled with MP3s without even bothering to listen to what the next song will be. It's not because a second tango happens to be played by the same orchestra and is from the same period as a first one that they're fit to be played in succession, and nothing will substitute for an astute listening ear. Orthodoxy is no substitute for hard work or skill. > The majority of vocal tangos are the best ever composed and recorded. I agree. Here we have some DJs who have stripped the body of tango of so much flesh to arrive at the tangolitically correct set that, yes, they consider vocal tangos for dancing a heresy (one would start to wonder how those singers in BsAs were earning their living ;) ). They are, around these parts, usually the most vocal proponents of the "one tanda, one orchestra, one period" orthodoxy, which (given I'm a contrarian) makes me want to rebel a bit. False gods indeed, but you'll often see that worshippers of false gods tend to think their idols are True ;). > but where is the warmth and the musical line of the vocal ones?? 'zactly. Vocal tangos are more challenging, but also more rewarding. If some can't stand the heat, they should get out of the kitchen (i.e. not dance vocal tangos), but I really hate it when they try to force their own limited musical set onto all the others present. Doesn't mean that all the vocal tangos are perfect - I find playing more than two or three d'Agostino/Vargas is (in my opinion only, of course) dangerous at the best of times, unless you want to put people asleep. > Although Preparense is not dancing music, and IMO shouldn't be played for that purpose, Well, I disagree (and I'm always glad when they play it when I'm dancing). But that's not a matter for much reasoned debate, as it's a matter of taste. Certainly, I'm not prepared to lump those tangos into the "really not dancing music" Piazollas. Continue to Essay on lyrics at TangoDC.com \| ARTICLE INDEX

4617 Cortinas (not the old car from the '70s)