5062 Dance Flaming: not an isolated phenomenon
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:59:55 -0400
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Dance Flaming: not an isolated phenomenon
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Enjoy! :)
Flamenco Purists Bemoan Blending of Dance Styles
Wall Street Journal
July 18, 2007 6:26pm
Flamenco is gaining in popularity around the world, but as the
centuries-old dance form gains new fans, some adherents to tradition
worry that quality is taking a hit. The tug-of-war between flamenco
purists and innovators is similar to conflicts that have dogged other
forms of art through the ages. In flamenco?s case, reports Graham Keeley
of Britain?s Independent, the fight is complicated by questions over the
dance?s origins, and disputes over who deserves credit for which
innovations.
Flamenco first appeared as an entertainment among gypsies in Spain
around 1760, deriving its flamboyant dance moves and narrative songs
>from Indian, Latin American and Arabic roots. Dancers and musician
drawing on flamenco can sell out large spaces in Japan and the United
Kingdom.
The flamenco singer Jos? de la Tomasa has criticized flamenco?s
world-famous stars such as Joaqu?n Cort?s for sacrificing the art?s
roots by adding in moves from other dance styles. To traditionalists,
Introducing ballet or jazz steps into flamenco is viewed as merely a
marketing ploy. ?In Andalusia, we don?t give flamenco the importance it
deserves, not just as a first-rate cultural asset but as a potential
source of revenue. But I don?t think we should let ourselves be guided
by purely monetary considerations,? says Rafael Infante, an adviser to
the Seville Flamenco Biennale.
Flamenco modernizers claim they are enriching the form rather than
destroying it. Tina Panadero, director of the Flamenco Museum in Seville
and the niece of a well-known flamenco innovator, says the dispute is
ironic, given the dance?s multicultural heritage. ?What people don?t
realize is that there is no definition of flamenco. It has only been
around for about 150 years, and is always changing.? ? Robin Moroney
Byline: Graham Keely, The Independent
Permalink:
https://blogs.wsj.com/informedreader/2007/07/18/flamenco-purists-bemoan-blending-of-dance-styles
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
"legal solutions for 21st century businesses"
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:44:46 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Dance Flaming: not an isolated phenomenon
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Thank you, Carol!
This is really beautiful. I am glad that have
the time these couple of days to hang out on the
list here and read everything. Usually I don't
have such luxury. So I am writing a huge post,
hopefully not too difficult to read.
Some flamenco purists, as well as tango purists,
love making other tango and flamenco purists hate
them. The criticism usually comes from the people who cannot do the same work.
This is not flaming. This criticism and
different perception is much needed. It is not
one way or another. It is both. It is a part of
the bigger whole. It is a much needed
scrutiny. These things must be voiced and this
article has done it very well. It is all about
awareness. This is NOT flaming.
Maybe the idea of flaming is not well understood anymore.
About the dances, the trick for this fusion is to
stay pure, and these flamenco dancers manage to
do it beautifully! It is very, very difficult to
tell the new story while keeping the dance in its
pure form. But it is not impossible. If you can
see some of these videos, they are
incredible. Even if you do not know much about
flamenco, you will understand what this is.
Amaury discovered our web site slightly
prematurely and I was not prepared to talk about
TangOl? Compa??a de Danza. The web site is not
completely done, has some errors, and we are
still working on it. But I might as well talk a
little about it now and about the fusion of AT
and flamenco that we are working with right now.
First, we are Argentine tango dancers (Gregory
and I). Natalia and Mark are flamenco dancers,
musicians and singers. Neither I nor Gregory
will even become flamenco dancers like Natalia,
and Natalia may never become a tango dancer (but
I have hopes). We are very conscious and careful
about protecting the authenticity of our own
dance forms. This is very important. When
artists create on the edge of reason (according
to others), they are risking being perceived as
traitors. That is traitors to what they had put
forward as their identity. The public feels
deceived. But the real thing is that artists,
and particularly dancers, have such a fierce
loyalty to their dance that it is unchangeable
because they become who they are through the art
of their dance. They are INSEPARABLE. One dies
without the other. The love and the passion
always remains with the original dance form. It is at the cellular level.
Second, no fusion ever works as a social dance
form. NONE. The fusion is for art and
performance only. It is very important to keep
this distinction in mind. What Joaqu?n Cort?s
does most other flamenco dancers cannot do and
would not want to do. This needs to be seen and
absorbed and, most of all, enjoyed. it is meant to move people.
What I have discovered is that when the two
different dance forms are fused, the people who
are doing the work need to have expertise in one
form and have other people working with them who
are experts in the other dance form. This is
essential. People who dance only one form and
then fuse it with something they may know a
little bit, usually do not succeed and risk
destroying the authenticity and the expressive value of their work.
There is a big difference in dancing between
flamenco and tango. Flamenco remained a living
dance, where its meaning (not its form) has been
changing with the times. The complexity of
compass remained the same. Flamenco begins with
the singer, who is followed by the dancer. The
musicians follow the dancer and his or her change
in compass. It is very, very complicated and
difficult. In flamenco, women now incorporate
movements that were originally danced by the
men. It is very exciting because the purists are
able to recognize the artistry that it requires and the expression.
Flamenco is very complicated. It is not a social
dance, and yet it is. It is danced when a group
of people gets together. And it evolves and
changes then. But it is not the same way a
social dance as tango is. So for any fusion, in
terms of tango, there needs to be a clear
understanding that the fusion is not to be danced socially.
In tango, nothing new that in any way would
resemble the changes in flamenco has happened in
years, more accurately, since the music
Piazzolla. Tango followed a different
history. Because tango follows the music and not
the dancer or singer, it changes with the music, when the music changes.
Joaqu?n Cort?s is such an amazing flamenco dancer
that anything that he does is justified by his
phenomenal mastery of the pure, authentic form of
the dance. Has anyone ever seen him
dance? There are videos on www.youtube.com.
The only comparison that I can make in tango is
Pablo Pugliese fusing tango and modern
dance. Pablo is a master of Argentine
tango. What he does with the fusion is
gorgeous. And there is no corruption of the
tango because no one else can do what he is
doing. But Pablo does not teach the fusion and does not dance it socially.
In the last several decades, on the outskirts of
the cities in Spain, flamenco has been
changing. The gypsies and others have been
singing about things that are current, such as
AIDS and drugs. It is as if flamenco tells the
current story of the people and the singers,
musicians and dancers are the story tellers.
Tango does not tell new stories. The new tangos
are rarely composed. There are no new tango
lyrics, at least none that I know of. The
closest lyrics that come to tango are the lyrics
of Rock Nacional in Argentina. They are
beautiful and they tell the current stories, such
as the songs of Silvina Carre.
I feel a bit envious of the flamenco dancers for
having many, many videos of their great dancers,
going back decades. We have nothing like that in
tango. We have some, but it is so very little by
comparison to the huge quantity of flamenco video
recordings. And not only of the dancers and musicians, but also the singers.
Sometimes I wish that the musicians and song
writers of the Rock Nacional genre would join
tango, but that probably is impossible, since one
maybe a direct opposing response to the other.
Again, thank you Carol for posting a great news story!
Warmest regards to all,
Nina
At 09:59 AM 7/19/2007, Carol Shepherd wrote:
>Enjoy! :)
>
>
>Flamenco Purists Bemoan Blending of Dance Styles
>
>
>Wall Street Journal
>July 18, 2007 6:26pm
>
>Flamenco is gaining in popularity around the world, but as the
>centuries-old dance form gains new fans, some adherents to tradition
>worry that quality is taking a hit. The tug-of-war between flamenco
>purists and innovators is similar to conflicts that have dogged other
>forms of art through the ages. In flamenco?s case, reports Graham Keeley
>of Britain?s Independent, the fight is complicated by questions over the
>dance?s origins, and disputes over who deserves credit for which
>innovations.
>
>Flamenco first appeared as an entertainment among gypsies in Spain
>around 1760, deriving its flamboyant dance moves and narrative songs
>>from Indian, Latin American and Arabic roots. Dancers and musician
>drawing on flamenco can sell out large spaces in Japan and the United
>Kingdom.
>
>The flamenco singer Jos? de la Tomasa has criticized flamenco?s
>world-famous stars such as Joaqu?n Cort?s for sacrificing the art?s
>roots by adding in moves from other dance styles. To traditionalists,
>Introducing ballet or jazz steps into flamenco is viewed as merely a
>marketing ploy. ?In Andalusia, we don?t give flamenco the importance it
>deserves, not just as a first-rate cultural asset but as a potential
>source of revenue. But I don?t think we should let ourselves be guided
>by purely monetary considerations,? says Rafael Infante, an adviser to
>the Seville Flamenco Biennale.
>
>Flamenco modernizers claim they are enriching the form rather than
>destroying it. Tina Panadero, director of the Flamenco Museum in Seville
>and the niece of a well-known flamenco innovator, says the dispute is
>ironic, given the dance?s multicultural heritage. ?What people don?t
>realize is that there is no definition of flamenco. It has only been
>around for about 150 years, and is always changing.? ? Robin Moroney
>
>Byline: Graham Keely, The Independent
>
>Permalink:
>https://blogs.wsj.com/informedreader/2007/07/18/flamenco-purists-bemoan-blending-of-dance-styles
>
>--
>Carol Ruth Shepherd
>Arborlaw PLC
>Ann Arbor MI USA
>734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
>https://arborlaw.com
>
>"legal solutions for 21st century businesses"
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:51:15 -0300
From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dance Flaming: not an isolated phenomenon
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<9fb1555a0707190951k44192c4aw5ec693d873ffaa50@mail.gmail.com>
"Flamenco modernizers claim they are enriching the form rather than
destroying it."
It's all about trying to justify one's quest for profit by stealing
legitimacy for what you do by calling it something it isn't.
-Kinda like musicians seeking money from tourists are 'enriching' tango by
adding a simple drum beat to sampled pieces of authentic tango.
-Kinda like aboriginals sitting in Sydney harbor are 'enriching' their
culture by playing their didgeridoos to a simple drum beat.
-Kinda like Peruvian musicians in Europe and the US are 'enriching' their
musical heritage by playing their reed flutes to a simple drum beat.
Both musicians and dancers seek to maximise their income. The easiest way to
do that is to cater to the general audience, -those who are not yet
initiated in the culture. They are easy pickin's. By serving them some
Flamenco Lite or McTango, the consumer sees something they recognise and is
more willing to purchase the product.
The 'artist' will always claim to be 'taking it further' although they know
better than anyone else that they are lying. If someone wanted to create
something new, then why do they see a need to use an already established
name like Flamenco or Tango? You have a new dance or a new music, why not a
new name?
Neil
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 16:23:39 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dance Flaming: not an isolated phenomenon
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Neil,
I disagree. :)
The musicians that you describe do what you
describe. But the motivations that you ascribe to them are incorrect.
There is no way, and I mean NO WAY that one can
reasonably put in the same comparison Joaqu?n
Cort?s and the street musicians. Joaqu?n Cort?s
is a dancer of incredible talent, beauty and
understanding of the dance. This is someone
incredibly accomplished. Joaqu?n Cort?s does not
need to do anything to have more money. This
dancer has been celebrated all over the world for years.
The closest comparison would be to say that when
Michail Baryshnikov danced his heartbeat (which I
was lucky to see in Teatro Colon), he was trying
to do it for profit. There is no logic to this.
Perhaps the definition of art is what is not
clear. Art means different things to different
people. To me, an artist, any artist, never
cares what others think. Joaqu?n Cort?s is such
an artist and so is Baryshnikov. To be an
artist, to me means to push ones self beyond
one's own known abilities. That is transformative
work. It is demanding, and the results have no guarantees.
But, art is more than that. The people that you
described, such as the Peruvian musicians, are
doing something else, no less meaningful. Music
belongs to humanity. They make music the way
they can. I have seen Andinos play in NY. And
they ask for money from people who like what they
do. Those who do not like, do not have to pay.
Personally, I am grateful to these people because
with their effort they are often much more
accessible than the artists whose work is seen only by the elite.
When I was very young and unsophisticated, I was
in NY, hanging around the subway stations for the
pure joy of public transportation. This was the
place where I heard for the first time
Andinos. I knew that their music may not have
been good from the purist's perspective. But to
me they were incredible. It was the
feeling. They LOVED their music. I still have
the tape that I bought from them. I later
discovered many wonderful things from that
genre. For this reason, I never begrudge any money to the street musicians.
And in regard to tango, the people who dance in
the streets of BsAs also bring something of
value. Anyone who is doing something is bringing
something of value. For example, there is a
woman in San Telmo on Dorrego who dances
alone. She is dressed in trashy outfits and, if
I were to guess, is sometimes intoxicated (gosh,
I hope that she is not a mother of someone on
this list!). She has been there for years. If
she were gone tomorrow, and I was walking and not
seeing her, I would miss her. She tried to do
something with tango. There was something.
OK, I am exaggerating. This is what happens when
I am left alone for hours in front of my computer.
But my point is that art is difficult to
define. I once had a vicious food fight in a
restaurant in Santa Fe, NM because one woman was
claiming a cut and dry definition of art and I
insisted that even a Hallmark card can be art to someone.
I can only speak from my own experience and my
view of tango as an art form. On a social level,
it is not art. If you try to dance art socially,
either its soul or yours will die.
An artist cannot be owing anything to other
people, such as a social dance partner. An
artist belongs to his or her art. This is the
beauty of tango. One and the same person can
pursue it both socially and as an art form.
I hope that I get rescued from my computer soon.
My warmest regards to everyone,
Nina
At 10:51 AM 7/19/2007, Tango Tango wrote:
>"Flamenco modernizers claim they are enriching the form rather than
>destroying it."
>
>It's all about trying to justify one's quest for profit by stealing
>legitimacy for what you do by calling it something it isn't.
>
>-Kinda like musicians seeking money from tourists are 'enriching' tango by
>adding a simple drum beat to sampled pieces of authentic tango.
>
>-Kinda like aboriginals sitting in Sydney harbor are 'enriching' their
>culture by playing their didgeridoos to a simple drum beat.
>
>-Kinda like Peruvian musicians in Europe and the US are 'enriching' their
>musical heritage by playing their reed flutes to a simple drum beat.
>
>Both musicians and dancers seek to maximise their income. The easiest way to
>do that is to cater to the general audience, -those who are not yet
>initiated in the culture. They are easy pickin's. By serving them some
>Flamenco Lite or McTango, the consumer sees something they recognise and is
>more willing to purchase the product.
>
>The 'artist' will always claim to be 'taking it further' although they know
>better than anyone else that they are lying. If someone wanted to create
>something new, then why do they see a need to use an already established
>name like Flamenco or Tango? You have a new dance or a new music, why not a
>new name?
>
>Neil
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:55:18 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dance Flaming: not an isolated phenomenon
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Nina said:
" But my point is that art is difficult to
Define...
I can only speak from my own experience and my
view of tango as an art form. On a social level,
it is not art. "
Igor:
Art belongs to what you create wholeheartedly, with all your soul. In
general sense it is Creation.
Art is a specific part of Creation. Other things, which are part of the
Creation include scientific work, managerial work, and growing vegetables,
and household work, anything. They all could all be Creation. Or not. It
means they all can be done with the same level of inspiration. Or not.
Usually, Art is distinguished from them by the filed: Painting, Dancing, and
so on. What people usually consider to be an Art.
But one can talk about Scientific art, or Art of Electronics... In this
sense, the art differs from technology in the way that it and the result of
it are so complex so it is done by intuition. Not because it can not be
learned and researched, but because it is too complex, unique.
Art requires certain level of perfection. If it is not perfect enough - it
is not art. That is reflected in feelings: what is not perfect - requires
some extra effort to do, to work with - it does not feel good, therefore it
is not art. It is an attempt to make art.
In another way, there are 2 definitions of art. First, art as the way of
creation, when the creator experience heavenly pleasure, and second: the
result of it, product, which is often on sale. I believe the first one is
the true one. It seems to me, you too. The second one - it is just something
to pay money for.
In this sense, any social dance done with heart, creatively, intuitively,
with enjoyment is art. That is one of the advantages of Tango. It allows
people experience the joy of creation with the simple means, and enjoy the
artistism of it if it feels well. Tango dancing as difficult as it is, is
not difficult in comparison to most other artistic activities.
Igor Polk
PS, The tricky question is "What is the painting on my wall - isn't it art
then?".
Answer: it depends on the way you are looking at it.
There is the Art of Enjoying Painting. Or not...
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 11:23:22 -0700
From: flame@2xtreme.net
Subject: [Tango-L] Nina - Dance Flaming: not an isolated phenomenon
To: tango-l@mit.edu
On 20 Jul 2007 at 6:20, tango-l-request@mit.edu wrote:
> I once had a vicious food fight in a
> restaurant in Santa Fe, NM because one woman was
> claiming a cut and dry definition of art and I
> insisted that even a Hallmark card can be art to someone.
This is intriguing! Please describe the fight in detail! Did other patrons get
involved? What sort of food was used as your weapons? Did anyone require
medical help?
