5247 Dancing with old guys
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:58:15 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Jake wrote:
I must ask you, in all innocence... What's your opinion of the men who
are now 45-63, and who (presumably) will soon be 65-83?
Chance in hell?
Deby responds:
My former partner is 63, I think. He dances incredibly. There are many
fine dancers in this age group. There are many who are older that are
disasters. There is one young man I dance with who is I think 32. He
has been dancing I think 2 years or so. Technically he has a way to
go. But the soul he puts into his dance is wonderful. He really feels
the music. It is not how old you are, or how long you have been
dancing. Never.
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:30:09 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
To: tango-l@mit.edu
This is very simple - older men have more experience with women. In
every way. They know better what to do with women in dance and in
life. And how to do it.
Men who have mastered the art of romance (because for women,
seduction begins with romance), dance even better when they are older
because they have more experience with that too.
For those who want to dance tango well in spite of their younger age,
I recommend reading very carefully Edmond Rostand's "Cyrano de
Bergerac". Or at least seeing the movie with Gerard Depardieu... It
has everything in it.
Cyrano was terribly vain. He never showed up for Roxanne in life
because of his vanily and fear of rejection. He thought that she
loved beauty and youth. He could not see that she loved him.
Tango is the dance of Cyranos. Young age and beautiful looks only go
so far. But can a man romance the woman? The older men know things.
Nina
At 06:58 PM 10/16/2007, Deby Novitz wrote:
>Jake wrote:
>
>I must ask you, in all innocence... What's your opinion of the men who
>are now 45-63, and who (presumably) will soon be 65-83?
>Chance in hell?
>
>Deby responds:
>
>My former partner is 63, I think. He dances incredibly. There are many
>fine dancers in this age group. There are many who are older that are
>disasters. There is one young man I dance with who is I think 32. He
>has been dancing I think 2 years or so. Technically he has a way to
>go. But the soul he puts into his dance is wonderful. He really feels
>the music. It is not how old you are, or how long you have been
>dancing. Never.
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:25:42 +1000
From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
To: "Nina Pesochinsky" <nina@earthnet.net>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<9fb1555a0710162025o129a0f94o836eb952d1283fa9@mail.gmail.com>
-That may be true, but what young men lack in experience we make up
for in stamina.
Neil
On 10/17/07, Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
> This is very simple - older men have more experience with women. In
> every way. They know better what to do with women in dance and in
> life. And how to do it.
>
> Men who have mastered the art of romance (because for women,
> seduction begins with romance), dance even better when they are older
> because they have more experience with that too.
>
> For those who want to dance tango well in spite of their younger age,
> I recommend reading very carefully Edmond Rostand's "Cyrano de
> Bergerac". Or at least seeing the movie with Gerard Depardieu... It
> has everything in it.
>
> Cyrano was terribly vain. He never showed up for Roxanne in life
> because of his vanily and fear of rejection. He thought that she
> loved beauty and youth. He could not see that she loved him.
>
> Tango is the dance of Cyranos. Young age and beautiful looks only go
> so far. But can a man romance the woman? The older men know things.
>
> Nina
>
>
> At 06:58 PM 10/16/2007, Deby Novitz wrote:
> >Jake wrote:
> >
> >I must ask you, in all innocence... What's your opinion of the men who
> >are now 45-63, and who (presumably) will soon be 65-83?
> >Chance in hell?
> >
> >Deby responds:
> >
> >My former partner is 63, I think. He dances incredibly. There are many
> >fine dancers in this age group. There are many who are older that are
> >disasters. There is one young man I dance with who is I think 32. He
> >has been dancing I think 2 years or so. Technically he has a way to
> >go. But the soul he puts into his dance is wonderful. He really feels
> >the music. It is not how old you are, or how long you have been
> >dancing. Never.
>
>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:46:03 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys/ Cyrano de Bergerac (???)
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>, "Nina Pesochinsky" <nina@earthnet.net>
> This is very simple - older men have more experience with women. In
> every way. They know better what to do with women in dance and in
> life. And how to do it.
I think that at least for Japan, this is very true. Maybe we can compare
observations, girls:
here the young men (23-32 or so) are often shy, tense and slightly distant
and withdrawn when they dance (not the Argentines, the Japanese) and they
have sort of a slightly sterile shallow quality to them in their dance. The
older men, over 40, who have been married for years, are often very
comfortable and relaxed with women, don't worry about what impression they
make and what is going to happen to them if they connect to the woman (!,
this may actually the worst problem of the young ones, it scares them I
think !) but are more confident and openly sensuous. You can feel the
difference in the way their embrace feels, strong, steady and warm. The
older ones also at times have that sense of humour that typically develops
in people over fourty who have become more comfortable with who they are and
accepting of what they are in life.
>
> Men who have mastered the art of romance (because for women,
> seduction begins with romance), dance even better when they are older
> because they have more experience with that too.
Yes, probably true, self confidence comes with mastery and experience.
>
> For those who want to dance tango well in spite of their younger age,
> I recommend reading very carefully Edmond Rostand's "Cyrano de
> Bergerac". Or at least seeing the movie with Gerard Depardieu... It
> has everything in it.
> Cyrano was terribly vain. He never showed up for Roxanne in life
> because of his vanily and fear of rejection. He thought that she
> loved beauty and youth. He could not see that she loved him.
??? I may be wrong here because I only saw the movie and in French at that,
but in my version:
Cyrano was not incredibly vain but rather, incredibly ugly (Depardieu, yes,
probably worse in the novel) but he was a great poet. His young friend was
handsome but not much of a talker. So they showed up together to romance a
girl, the young guy showing himself under her window, and Cyrano hiding
behind the bushes and doing the talking and the love letter writing too.
>
> Tango is the dance of Cyranos. Young age and beautiful looks only go
> so far. But can a man romance the woman? The older men know things.
Well, I don't know about that. Maybe you can elaborate a bit on this, Nina,
what you mean buy this Cyrano comparison. For one thing, most older men are
not as ugly as Cyrano. It is true, while we dance we don't see his face,
most of the time. And he is talking with his body. (Cyrano never did
that...) At the same time it is hard to forget who we are dancing with, we
can smell him, we can feel his skin and it all feels different from a young
man. But an interesting comparison still. And it says a lot about what
happens if you only go for the packaging, not for the contents. You may end
up with a nice looking empty box...
Astrid
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:28:32 +1000
From: Roger <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
To: tango-l@mit.edu
< -That may be true, but what young men lack in experience we make up
< for in stamina.
< Neil
Well, that should be a big hit with those women who not only want an inferior dance, but one
that feels like it is never ever going to finish?
rde
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:25:36 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
To: "Roger" <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
>< -That may be true, but what young men lack in experience we make up
> < for in stamina.
>
> < Neil
>
> Well, that should be a big hit with those women who not only want an
> inferior dance, but one
> that feels like it is never ever going to finish?
>
> rde
lol. Very candid, Roger. This is the big mistake many young men make about
their ideas on how to please a woman. "All it takes is bragging about one's
stamina.", they seem to think. Remember, Eve was created after Adam, as a
step up refined version.
If we wanted stamina only we would be doing a different dance.
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:50:16 -0300 (ART)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
To: Tango Tango <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Hello: dancing well, like all endeavors in the Arts, is an expression of talent. It has nothing to do with age.
This "inconvenient truth" is challenged by the un-talented, with resounding financial success.
Lucia
Tango Tango <tangotangotango@gmail.com> escribi?: -That may be true, but what young men lack in experience we make up
for in stamina.
Neil
PS Do young men also lack in syntactic skills? ;->
Segu? de cerca a la Selecci?n Argentina de Rugby
en el Mundial de Francia 2007.
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:07:59 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Well... if this is so, then I feel really bad for most people in tango :)
Nina
At 07:50 AM 10/17/2007, Lucia wrote:
>Hello: dancing well, like all endeavors in the
>Arts, is an expression of talent. It has nothing to do with age.
>
> This "inconvenient truth" is challenged by
> the un-talented, with resounding financial success.
>
> Lucia
>
>Tango Tango <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
>escribi?: -That may be true, but what young men lack in experience we make up
>for in stamina.
>
>Neil
>
>PS Do young men also lack in syntactic skills? ;->
>
>
>
>
>Segu? de cerca a la Selecci?n Argentina de Rugby
>en el Mundial de Francia 2007.
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:08:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys/ Cyrano de Bergerac (???)
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cyrano just had a big nose, which he thought made him ugly.
He wasn't grotesque.
I won't speak for Nina, but my interpretation of Cyrano is
that he romanced the woman from afar by appealing to her
mind. For many women, nothing is sexier. I find that this
is the same difference between the men who are good flirts
and bad flirts. The bad flirts tend to be more physical
and direct, so they're distasteful to be around. The good
flirts charm with their wit.
I haven't seen the more recent version, but there's the old
black & white version that I enjoyed. The name of the
famous actor in it escapes me.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:
> Well, I don't know about that. Maybe you can elaborate a
> bit on this, Nina,
> what you mean buy this Cyrano comparison. For one thing,
> most older men are
> not as ugly as Cyrano. It is true, while we dance we
> don't see his face,
> most of the time. And he is talking with his body.
> (Cyrano never did
> that...) At the same time it is hard to forget who we are
> dancing with, we
> can smell him, we can feel his skin and it all feels
> different from a young
> man. But an interesting comparison still. And it says a
> lot about what
> happens if you only go for the packaging, not for the
> contents. You may end
> up with a nice looking empty box...
>
> Astrid
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:14:22 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Alright then... Be talented, or else! :)
Nina
At 07:50 AM 10/17/2007, Lucia wrote:
>Hello: dancing well, like all endeavors in the
>Arts, is an expression of talent. It has nothing to do with age.
>
> This "inconvenient truth" is challenged by
> the un-talented, with resounding financial success.
>
> Lucia
>
>Tango Tango <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
>escribi?: -That may be true, but what young men lack in experience we make up
>for in stamina.
>
>Neil
>
>PS Do young men also lack in syntactic skills? ;->
>
>
>
>
>Segu? de cerca a la Selecci?n Argentina de Rugby
>en el Mundial de Francia 2007.
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:32:21 +1000
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0151416B07@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
The great thing about tango is that it is a dance of the people. I don't think you need talent. In my opinion you do need to:
1. embrace with seriousness and tenderness,
2. be inventive and creative in the framework of the music, and
3. dance with passion (in other words commit some emotion to it rather than just walking through a routine).
If you do those things then in my opinion, it doesn't matter if you are an absolute beginner who only knows how to walk or a trained classical dancer that can execute 12 pivots on the spot. Either way you are going to be having a beautiful dance.
Victor Bennetts
-----Original Message-----
From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Nina Pesochinsky
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2007 12:14 AM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
Alright then... Be talented, or else! :)
Nina
At 07:50 AM 10/17/2007, Lucia wrote:
>Hello: dancing well, like all endeavors in the
>Arts, is an expression of talent. It has nothing to do with age.
>
> This "inconvenient truth" is challenged by
> the un-talented, with resounding financial success.
>
> Lucia
>
>Tango Tango <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
>escribi?: -That may be true, but what young men lack in experience we make up
>for in stamina.
>
>Neil
>
>PS Do young men also lack in syntactic skills? ;->
>
>
>
>
>Segu? de cerca a la Selecci?n Argentina de Rugby
>en el Mundial de Francia 2007.
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:49:29 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
To: Victor Bennetts <victor_bennetts@infosys.com>, "tango-l@mit.edu"
<tango-l@mit.edu>
> From: Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com
>
> The great thing about tango is that it is a dance of the people. I don't think you need talent. In my opinion you do need to:
> 1. embrace with seriousness and tenderness,
> 2. be inventive and creative in the framework of the music, and
> 3. dance with passion (in other words commit some emotion to it rather than just walking through a routine).
> If you do those things then in my opinion, it doesn't matter if you are an absolute beginner who only knows how to walk or a trained classical dancer that can execute 12 pivots on the spot. Either way you are going to be having a beautiful dance.
>
> Victor Bennetts
Dear Victor,
You are right about the 3 items you list, but although I hate to be the bearer of bad news, I must tell you that there is a huge difference between a talented, experienced dancer and even the most "passionate" beginner. And yes, it does matter..... Nothing wrong with feelings and passion, but you simply cannot dismiss and devalue skill, musicality and experience.
Cheers,
Manuel
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:16:09 +1000
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0151416B0A@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
Cool, I agree. I didn't say there wasn't a difference. Obviously I am not saying that after three years I am going to be executing steps as smoothly as a milonguero who has been doing it for thirty years plus. My contention is just that experienced and less experienced dancers can both have 'great' dances as long as they are applying themselves to the things that are really important. There are plenty of experienced dancers out there (including milongueros) who dance badly probably for all sorts of different reasons. I am not sure about the talent side of things, because that is really a subjective assessment and I am not even sure if the list I gave is complete or the right list for everyone. It is just my list that works for me.
Victor Bennetts
-----Original Message-----
From: WHITE 95 R [mailto:white95r@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2007 1:49 PM
To: Victor Bennetts; tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: RE: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
> From: Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com
>
> The great thing about tango is that it is a dance of the people. I don't think you need talent. In my opinion you do need to:
> 1. embrace with seriousness and tenderness,
> 2. be inventive and creative in the framework of the music, and
> 3. dance with passion (in other words commit some emotion to it rather than just walking through a routine).
> If you do those things then in my opinion, it doesn't matter if you are an absolute beginner who only knows how to walk or a trained classical dancer that can execute 12 pivots on the spot. Either way you are going to be having a beautiful dance.
>
> Victor Bennetts
Dear Victor,
You are right about the 3 items you list, but although I hate to be the bearer of bad news, I must tell you that there is a huge difference between a talented, experienced dancer and even the most "passionate" beginner. And yes, it does matter..... Nothing wrong with feelings and passion, but you simply cannot dismiss and devalue skill, musicality and experience.
Cheers,
Manuel
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