Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers


1439 Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers	ARTICLE INDEX
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:45:35 -0700 From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Sham or incompetent teachers One needs to be suspicious of any teacher who exhibits any of the following. However, one needs to look at and think deeply about the overall picture and not rush to judgment. After all, it isn't fair to incorrectly evaluate a legitimate, good and dedicated teacher. And one may be passing up a very fine learning opportunity. This list won't help the poor hapless vulnerable and total beginner because in all likelihood, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to have read it. But one can warn and guide any beginners one may encounter. Also, one can give the beginner a copy of this list. Teachers can view this list as a way of checking themselves. They shouldn't construe any part of what I say as meaning they are necessarily sham or incompetent teachers. However, if any part applies to them, they need to take it as a helpful hint. It's the responsibility of every teacher to improve both their dancing and their teaching skills. Doing so improves ones service to their students and to the wider Tango community. Obviously, most truly sham teachers are going to continue shamming. I just hope some will have a pang of conscience that will lead them to change their ways. I have attempted to create an exhaustive list but if I have left anything out, please let me know. All helpful comments and critiques are welcome and requests for clarifications will be honored. 1)Money seems to be a teacher's paramount concern. It's certainly ok for a teacher to make money but it shouldn't be his chief concern. Their chief concern needs to be the welfare of their students and the wider Tango community. It becomes a concern to other Tango dancers when they end-up dancing with a poorly trained person. Beginners are one thing; poorly trained dancers are another. 2)A teacher doesn't concentrate on basics with a beginner. As a student advances, he will often need to be reminded or helped from time to time with relevant basics. A teacher needs to be willing to do this regardless of the class level. I have already mentioned elsewhere in this posting a type of class structure that will accommodate this. 3)A teacher is unwilling to correct a student. The teacher may be afraid to lose a student due to too many needed corrections. 4)A teacher teaches a beginner figures other then Salidas, Crosses and Ochos. These figures are used as a way to convey basics to a student so it may be possible to use additional figures to convey needed basics. 5)A teacher who teaches a lot of flashy, fancy and/or sexy figures is probably attempting to hook or keep students. Latter on as a dancer becomes more advanced, such figures are a lot of fun. 6)The teacher doesn't dance well or is not smooth or doesn't dance elegantly or doesn't give a lady time to complete a figure or doesn't insert strategic pauses to give a lady time to do adornments. 7)A teacher doesn't seem to have sufficient dedication to Tango. A truly dedicated teacher has enough interest in Tango to go beyond the actual dance itself. Almost everything about Tango needs to be of interest to the teacher. Things such as the music, Tango personalities, Tango history, etc. A teacher can convey such info to the student in bits and snippets. 8)A teacher needs to tell students (even beginners) about Tango-L, Tango-A and other Tango related websites. He should have bibliographies of books, videos and CD's (or at least he can refer students to sources or others who have) 9)A teacher doesn't name techniques, figures and steps that are being taught. (Terms and names are best given in Spanish because a foreign language is freer of the non-tango related connotations and associations then ones own native language has.) If a teacher doesn't know the names of what he is teaching, one needs to wonder how much the teacher actually knows. If a teacher knows but won't give names of what he is teaching, the teacher is probably attempting to control how rapidly a student is learning with the intent of keeping the student in the teacher's classes as long as possible. If a student doesn't have a name for something, it is difficult for him to think about. One needs a language and its words to think about anything. Not being able to think about something is a severe handicap to learning. This is called illiteracy. Words gives a student the ability to discuss a technique, figure or step in as few words a possible. A word conveys a complex sets of ideas efficiently. Discussions with others helps a student to understand and learn a new technique, figure or step better. A student can use the words to record efficient notes. 10)A teacher doesn't convey any sort of mental structure to the student. A structure is a way a student can think about Tango and its techniques, movements, steps and figures. A good structure aids the student in his quest toward tango. A teacher needs to structure the class and what he teaches along the lines of the mental structure he is attempting to convey. Because Tango is essentially an improvisational dance, it doesn't have structure in the same way as Ballroom. The mental structure is only mental and is not applied to the actual dance itself. The intent of a structure is to help a student to think and learn in as clear and efficient manner as possible. A beginner often depends on the mental structure as a sort of a crutch. As the beginner progresses, the need for the crutch gradually drops away. Later on, the mental structure can be used as a way a student can analyze and choreograph their own figures. An integral part of any mental structure are words and names of things. Much of what I have already said in regards to words and names also applies to mental structures. A mental structure relates techniques, movements, steps and figures according to their similarities, differences and according to ease of learning. Easy simple things, that may be found as part of more complex and harder figures, are taught early. When the more complex and harder figures are taught, the student will find them easier to learn because much of it has already been learned. Any structure a teacher develops can be conveyed in a gradual fashion and not all at once. 11)A teacher doesn't encourage note taking. 12)A student remains in the class without much improvement while the teacher attempts to convince him he is improving. A student can measure their own progress at practicas and milongas and the response of other dancers with whom they dance. A dancer can test their lead/follow abilities by dancing with people less advanced then himself such as beginners. 13)A lot of what is being taught is not being retained by a student. Exception: In the case of a student being in a class over their head, it would be the responsibility of the teacher to direct the student to a class and teacher that can better help the student. Another thing the teacher can do is to structure the class so that each student is learning at their own particular level. Students at about the same level can be taught as a subgroup within the class. With this method, a single class can accommodate students of several different levels at the same time. The class can be on-going without beginning or end. Teachers can accept new students at any time without regard to the student's dance ability. To make such a structure work, the teacher needs to be willing to give each student more one-on-one attention. Sort of like giving private lessons in a group setting. 14)A teacher seems to make a lot of mistakes either in what he is teaching or how he is teaching. 15)A teacher seems make a lot of excuses for shortcomings. 16)A teacher seems to have more explanation then results. 17)A teacher seems to be defensive with questions whose answers may reveal the incompetence or fraud. 18)A teacher deliberately teaches incorrectly with the intent of handicapping the student. A sham teacher wants to keep the student dependent on the teacher so he continues with the teacher. I think this is the worse kind of teacher and I hope it is rare even among sham teachers. 19)A teacher deliberately withholds information from the student with the intent of either handicapping the student or in an attempt to keep the student from finding out the teachers fraudulence. 20)Any uncivility or discourtesy on the part of the teacher. This includes snapping at a student or any impatience. A teacher needs to be a paragon of patience. 21)A teacher who is unwilling to repeat or review prior material as often as is needed. I have already mentioned elsewhere in this posting a type of class structure that will accommodate this. Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 22:20:23 +0100 From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM> writes: [...] > I have attempted to create an exhaustive list but if I have left > anything out, please let me know. All helpful comments and critiques > are welcome and requests for clarifications will be honored. You didn't mention (or barely mentioned) social dancing. Good tango teachers ought to dance socially, and ought to emphasize the necessity of dancing socially, including dancing at events run by competing teachers. Similarly, good teachers will (in places where this happens) keep an eye on which teachers are visiting and recommend the good ones. [...] > 9)A teacher doesn't name techniques, figures and steps that are > being taught. (Terms and names are best given in Spanish because a > foreign language is freer of the non-tango related connotations and > associations then ones own native language has.) If a teacher > doesn't know the names of what he is teaching, one needs to wonder > how much the teacher actually knows. On the other hand, one shouldn't rely too much on names. Many things just don't seem to have names, and some have a variety of names. (One teacher explained that all figures have a name: they're all called "this one", as in "have you seen this one?".) [...] Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:35:35 +0200 From: andy Ungureanu <andy.ungureanu@T-ONLINE.DE> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Tango Guy wrote: > Sham or incompetent teachers > One needs to be suspicious of any teacher who exhibits any of the following. I am a not a teacher and I don't need to defend myself. But I am very suspicious about those hints. The person expected by "tango guy" is some sort of a God, perfect in Tango, dance, music and history, big in psychology, body training, teaching methods, doesn't care about money and so on. I learned with different teachers, some of them widely accepted as top teachers, but none of them has the chance to fulfill all these criteria. I agree that there are a lot of lousy teachers out there, but also company leaders, politicians, lawyers, doctors, engineers etc, who should better change their jobs. Tango students are grown up people who should stop to blame the teacher for their lack of success. They should open their eyes and use their brains to judge if the teacher is good for them or not. Beginners are not yet able the judge the quality, but they are able to recognize if they want to dance like this particular teacher (or his experienced students) or not. After six months they should be able to know if the classes are worth the money or not. Later they will work with different teachers and stay with the one(s) they like. It's a free market. Andy Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:16:42 -0700 From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Bruce Stephens wrote: >You didn't mention (or barely mentioned) social dancing. Good tango >teachers ought to dance socially, and ought to emphasize the necessity >of dancing socially, including dancing at events run by competing >teachers. >Similarly, good teachers will (in places where this happens) keep an >eye on which teachers are visiting and recommend the good ones. Both of these are indeed good ones. Thanks Bruce Stephens also wrote: >On the other hand, one shouldn't rely too much on names. Many things >just don't seem to have names, and some have a variety of names. (One >teacher explained that all figures have a name: they're all called >"this one", as in "have you seen this one?".) I don't recall any but one teacher mentioning very many names. My current teacher thinks that everything has a name (or at least a descriptive designation in Spanish such as Ocho Atras con Giros-which means "8 back with turns") However, if something doesn't have a name, or there are a variety of names for the same thing, I'm not sure if that is very much of a problem. I'm sure one can adjust. I'm not sure how one CAN rely too much on names or if a teacher ever has. Warm Regards Tango Guy Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:36:12 -0700 From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Andy; This is what I actually wrote:One needs to be suspicious of any teacher who exhibits any of the following. However, one needs to look at and think deeply about the overall picture and not rush to judgment. After all, it isn't fair to incorrectly evaluate a legitimate, good and dedicated teacher. And one may be passing up a very fine learning opportunity. You really need to quote everything I actually said. There is nothing in the list which says a teacher needs to be perfect or superhuman. Yes it is a free market and no one that I know of is trying to limit that market. Least of all myself. This is a list that should help anyone to avoid sham or incompetent teachers NOT a list of rules that need to be enforced nor should it be construed as a list of reasons that students can use to blame teachers for their lack of success. I have the feeling you didn't read my email very well nor thought about it very thoroughly. You seem to have read things into it that wern't there and I didn't say. Tango Guy Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 01:02:19 +0100 From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM> writes: [...] > I don't recall any but one teacher mentioning very many names. My > current teacher thinks that everything has a name (or at least a > descriptive designation in Spanish such as Ocho Atras con > Giros-which means "8 back with turns") However, if something doesn't > have a name, or there are a variety of names for the same thing, I'm > not sure if that is very much of a problem. I'm sure one can adjust. > > I'm not sure how one CAN rely too much on names or if a teacher ever has. I guess I see only a limited value in naming things. If I were to be suspicious, it would be of teachers who feel the need to name too many things (especially steps) rather than those who name too few things. Clearly it's valuable to know some names: giro, secada, ocho, boleo, gancho, salida. (And a few others, which temporarily escape me.) I'm much less sure about giving names (which students might try to remember, even if they're purely descriptive to Spanish speakers) to steps. Naming things seems like the sort of thing that ballroom teachers would want to do: so they can write down routines and syllabuses and things. Maybe names help some students learn, though. Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 22:36:45 -0400 From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Tango Guy: How long have you been dancing tango? Do you teach tango? You're extremely modest suggesting that "your" list be distributed to beginners so they are not taken in by incompetent teachers and that teachers can use "your" list to check themselves out. I'll be sure to pass on your list to promoters in Washington, DC where I live to ensure they evaluate tango masters using your criteria before they sponsor them. I'm not going to rebut every item on your list but I'll say I have an excellent teacher even though he's never referred me to Tango L because he doesn't have a computer. Furthermore, the quality and desires of the student are not mentioned in your post. Some students want the "flash and splash" and teachers try to accomodate their wishes, even though are doomed because the student doesn't have the skill level to pull it off. Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC 4 more weeks until the New York tango festival where I can see how the teachers match up to Tango Guy's list of sham and incompetent teachers Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:48:52 -0600 From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers I've been learning West Coast Swing. It is great to be a beginner again, but with the wisdom and body skill of already knowing one dance. It is like being a teenager again with all the wisdom of being an adult. Of course, now that I'm knowledgeable enough to know what questions to ask, I have a much better chance at finding a good teacher. You can learn things from negative comments, but most people try to take the high road and say something nice about everybody. The best recommendations are something like the following: "She is tough, but the guys who study with her have the best fundamentals." "He is awesome with fancy vocabulary, but wait until you have your basics down." "For best musicality (or expression, or sultry, or whatever) , work with her." "You want to perform, then use X. You want to social dance, then Y is a good choice." These kinds of comments inform in a positive way. I don't think our local offerings in tango always offer such variety while retaining quality, but maybe that is the next wave. Having pursued excellence in ONE dance, I would always recommend that beginners focus on fundamentals and music rather than vocabulary. I think many would agree with that. Perhaps teachers are afraid that if they don't offer fancy steps they will lose students. That fear shows a lack of imagination. You can be entertaining while also teaching good fundamentals. -- Tom Stermitz https://www.tango.org/ stermitz@tango.org 303-388-2560 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 18:10:06 +0900 From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers > 7)A teacher doesn't seem to have sufficient dedication to Tango. A truly dedicated teacher has enough interest in Tango to go beyond the actual dance itself. Almost everything about Tango needs to be of interest to the teacher. Things such as the music, Tango personalities, Tango history, etc. A teacher can convey such info to the student in bits and snippets. > > 8)A teacher needs to tell students (even beginners) about Tango-L, Tango-A and other Tango related websites. He should have bibliographies of books, videos and CD's (or at least he can refer students to sources or others who have) > > 9)A teacher doesn't name techniques, figures and steps that are being taught. (Terms and names are best given in Spanish because a foreign language is freer of the non-tango related connotations and associations then ones own native language has.) > If a teacher doesn't know the names of what he is teaching, one needs to wonder how much the teacher actually knows. > If a teacher knows but won't give names of what he is teaching, the teacher is probably attempting to control how rapidly a student is learning with the intent of keeping the student in the teacher's classes as long as possible. > 11)A teacher doesn't encourage note taking. > > 13)A lot of what is being taught is not being retained by a student.> > 21)A teacher who is unwilling to repeat or review prior material as often as is needed. I have already mentioned elsewhere in this posting a type of class structure that will accommodate this. > I would like to change the name of this thread to "Detecting sham and incompetent students" I am a teacher myself, even though it is not tango I teach, and I can tell you the kind of students that seriously wear down my patience: 7) A student who comes to class but shows no interest whatsoever into the background of what I am teaching. He never spends any of his free time going to the library trying to read up on things out of a deeper interest. At the same time, he blames me for not spoon feeding him any kind of information he is too lazy to study alone, and blames me if class time is not enough time to cover the all the necessary self study. 8) A student who asks me about every little thing that he could easily find out by himself if he tried. He keeps trying to burn up my energy instead of his own. 9) A student who gets all hung up on technicalities instead of trying to master the material itself without constantly theorising about it. 11) A student who is constantly bent over his notes when he should be communicating and be with what's going on in class instead. 13) A student whose brain functions like a strainer because he never reviews the material on his own and practises in his free time. 21) A student who always comes unprepared and then expects me to do his reviewing and memorising with him, because he does not want to do his homework by himself in his free time. Now, you tango teachers out there, do you and I have anything in common inthe way we see our students ? Astrid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:04:38 -0500 From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers I find it perfectly natural to want to be able to sort through all the people who are offering to teach Argentine tango. Beginners are particularly interested in sorting through the teachers. People who want to see their community grow should also be interested in seeing that the beginners in a community are able to sort through the teachers. It is very likely that someone who is trying to learn Argentine tango for the first time will take classes from only one instructor. If the student doesn't find it to be a satisfactory experience, or doesn't learn enough to become welcome at milongas, they may drop out. Of course, the student's own willingness and ability to learn, compatibility with the instructor and the degree to which the community welcomes newcomers at milongas are all factors that have nothing to do with the quality of the instruction per se. The issue of the quality of instruction arises, however, when people offer Argentine tango classes with little knowledge of the dance or little knowledge how to teach Argentine tango. As was discussed in a recent thread, some Argentine tango communities must contend with ballroom teachers who pretend to teach Argentine tango, but have little actual experience in Argentine tango itself. They may be watching a video (maybe not even a good one), and then teaching a few step patterns. Of course, there are other types of incompetent instructors. I know of a touring couple who taught week-long workshops with 70-100 students, nearly all of whom quit when they attended a milonga and discovered what they had been taught only vaguely resembled the way people danced at milongas. In addition, not everyone who is a good dancer makes a good teacher of beginning dancers. I know of some excellent dancers who teach and through about a hundred beginners a year and produced less than a handful of dancers who have joined the Argentine tango community. The questions that I would ask local teachers who teach Argentine tango are: What first attracted you to Argentine tango? How did you learn Argentine tango yourself? How many people have you taught Argentine tango in the past year? How many of them have continued dancing Argentine tango? What do you emphasize in teaching beginners--a good grounding in basic movements, fundamentals, steps and patterns, refining the quality of movement, musicality, understanding the structure of the dance, the connection between partners, having fun, etc.? What music do you use to teach your Argentine tango classes? What is your favorite tango orhestra? What do you like best about the music of that orchestra? Do you dance at the local milongas? Which ones? How frequently? Do you teach any other dance(s) in addition to Argentine tango? Which ones? How transferrable do you find the skills between these dances? With best regards, Steve Stephen Brown Tango Argentino de Tejas https://www.tejastango.com/ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:42:51 -0500 From: donnayn <donnayn@DONNAY.NET> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Another good question to add to the list: Have you been to Argentina? This weeds out the people who have watched a video or taken a 6 week series and start teaching. I still believe a trip to Bs.As. is necessary for anyone who is truly serious about Argentine tango. I've seen the positive change in quite a few dancers, and certainly saw the change in me. Lois Donnay Minneapolis Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:21:16 -0700 From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Lois; Good addition!! I just hope that not all teachers get weeded out by my list! donnayn <donnayn@DONNAY.NET> wrote:Another good question to add to the list: Have you been to Argentina? This weeds out the people who have watched a video or taken a 6 week series and start teaching. I still believe a trip to Bs.As. is necessary for anyone who is truly serious about Argentine tango. I've seen the positive change in quite a few dancers, and certainly saw the change in me. Lois Donnay Minneapolis Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:29:00 +0100 From: Guy Williams <guyzen@FREEUK.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers I've started teaching tango this year and found your comments interesting and thought provoking I respond as follows <1)Money seems to be a teacher's paramount concern. > my comment is that respect and money sometimes go together. You offer something free or cheap and people feel free to turn up or not at whim. = If they are paying you then they their attitude changes toward the teacher. The more you charge the better you must be! <10)A teacher doesn't convey any sort of mental structure to the student.> No. I can't agree with this. I plan a stucture that I use to teach but students don't need to understand this. I endeavour to teach them things = that they will absorb physically not mentally. Too much thinking is a hindrance to dancing. Students need to FEEL what their partner is doing. = I don't teach the salida because I learnt without it and many beginners get hooked into recognising a patttern of steps where there is none(eg a = follower will put in a cross where none is led). The salida is a tool to teach but not a prerequisite. I see the salida as a coathanger on = which new and different things can be hung. I think improvisation is hard to teach as it requires the ability to listen and interpret the music and this is a very hard skill to convey. = I do it intuitively but I don't know if its possible to teach that inuition to someone else. Just 51% attention to the music thatz all I = ask. <11)A teacher doesn't encourage note taking.> If you need to make notes that's fine by me but I want the student to absorb the lesson not write = an essay. <20)Any uncivility or discourtesy on the part of the teacher. This includes snapping at a student or any impatience. A teacher needs to be = a paragon of patience.> I'm no saint, sometimes I get frustrated with someone's lack of progress and I blow. Other points: A good teacher should know his limits: There are things I don't know and there are things I can dance that I can't teach, so I'm honest about it. I think the student should take responsibility for what they learn. They are adults. I endeavour to bring the qualities that I have to teaching; These include humour; years of Tai Chi and Qi Qong which have some interesting = applications for developing a kineasthetic sense; flexibility - striking a balance beween a plan and adapting to people's needs; persistence - I = won't give up on someone because they're finding it difficult. Break throughs can happen overnight after weeks of practice. Guy Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:34:51 -0500 From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Another opinion: As a teacher (but no longer actively teaching tango), I do not subscribe to TangoGuy's over-ambitious list of criteria. It's not that simple, and yet it's simpler.... First of all, a tango teacher should be a completely genuine person. They should not be insecure, afraid of criticism or appear to hide behind a title or an external image or persona. Like, they should not need on-line pseudonyms. Building confidence in students is not easy - especially if the teacher lacks self confidence. Being honest with students starts with being honest with oneself. ...and especially when the 'news' is bad (whatever it may be in life), honesty is an obvious sign of basic respect. All of the elements of respect can take a while to evaluate, but they should all be there. Insecure teachers and students: they deserve each other! My second thought is perhaps a more personal recommendation. When you see teachers dance you should be struck first by the FEELING. Look for people who express their feelings. When they dance simply, do they express feelings that you also might like to explore? That's important! Does a parada seem breathless? Rather than thinking 'those were some slashin' boleos!', do they make you wonder 'where did THAT energy come from (and where is it going)?' Are their bodies talking to each other, especially when the musical energy is lower? Those are the teachers who are less likely to waste your time. Typical example: There is a local teacher whom I consider sub-optimal and whenever I see that person dance, no matter the partner, the obvious feeling is of anger, dominance, and insecurity, which comes through despite the poor technique. In fact, this dancer expresses their emotion better than most, which is unfortunate! The proud title "Teacher of Classy Argentine Tango" hides NO personal shortcomings and has resulted in mild ridicule. Yet, notwithstanding issues of technique, the personal issues that limit this teacher are right up front in their dancing, for all to see. Bottom line for the criteria list: It's art. Go with your feelings. Frank - Mpls. Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:47:15 +0100 From: Guy Williams <guyzen@FREEUK.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Lois Donnay wrote <Another good question to add to the list: Have you been to Argentina? This weeds out the people who have watched a video or taken a 6 week series and start teaching. I still believe a trip to Bs.As. is necessary for anyone who is truly serious about Argentine tango. I've seen the positive change in quite a few dancers, and certainly saw the change in me.> In an ideal world; but I hate travelling to the extent its verging on phobia, but I've had a one good Argentinian teacher ( a case of Mohammed = and the mountain) and a couple of lousy ones (plus good teachers from England, Germany Nederlands ) so I can't agree. Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:06:16 -0400 From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers While I agree with most of these tests, I strongly disagree with #11)A teacher doesn't encourage note taking. I and many other people think note taking is the way to become a BAD tango dancer. I am a very logical, literate person and when it comes to math, language, and most book type knowledge I think note taking is the best way to get it into your brain. But dancing is NOT book learning. It is a feeling, an emotion, made physical by the movement of your body. There is NO note system that comes close to being able to represent the truth about what your body should be doing. Sometimes it doesn't even come through on video, scribles can in no way help you. When some one takes notes, what they are doing is memorizing a specific figure, and ignoring the important stuff: the sense of balance, the timing, the momentum, the feel if your partner's arms, and yes - even the whisp of excitement as the followers breasts brush the leacers arms during a turn. Scribles let you learn the figure, but forget how to dance. Maybe I am wrong, maybe this can help you, but I know lots of real live good tango teachers that will agree with me. There are good tango teachers that will discourage you from taking notes. Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:41:31 GMT From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers I don't agree with A Coleman at all on note taking. I take plenty of notes during my private lessons and at workshops -- and it has helped me immensely. First, I can't remember everything that is said and illustrated. Tango is a dance of nuances and I have to write down what I'm doing wrong. "Keep the right hand firm against the woman's back so that she will stay close to you. Otherwise, for a displacement, you're going to have reach very far." "For back sacada, compress the right knee before pivoting so that you can extend the left foot cleanly between the woman's legs." Writing down the instructions forces me to think about what I'm writing. I've had too many situations where I forgot everything from a 90 minute workshop with 30 minutes after the workshop's conclusion. I also need to write down what I want the woman to do, not just write down my own steps. I remember returning from a tango weekend and I showed my teacher what I wrote down for my steps. He said "Hum. What are you trying to get the woman to do?" $1000 in hotel, tuition, and plane tickets down the drain because I only concentrated on myself, not my partner, A VERY BIG MISTAKE! I don't have to dance the follower's part but I HAVE TO KNOW WHAT I WANT HER TO DO! I'm fortunate that an friend of mine who worked for Amtrak gave me a conductor's pouch. I wear it around my waist. One of the pockets holds pens and a steno pad so I can quickly take notes. If something doesn't make sense, I ask the teacher to repeat. It's a definite sign I didn't understand what was said. Without notes, I could learn the figure wrong because I missed something. I'm taking the pouch, steno pad, pens, and notes at the upcoming NY Tango Festival. I won't be able to do everything that is taught but with some notes, my private teacher can help figure out how to execute the figures. Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC Looking forward to fireworks and tango in NY next week --- A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: I and many other people think note taking is the way to become a BAD tango dancer. _ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:51:41 -0700 From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Astrid; You make a good point regarding many students. I can imagine the teaching/learning process is as difficult and frustrating for teachers as well as for students. I think that a thread called "Detecting Sham and Incompetent Students" would be a nice counter-balance to mine. Your posting would be a good start. Perhaps you could create and post a list similar to mine and see what reaction is created. Warm Regards Tango Guy astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote: > 7)A teacher doesn't seem to have sufficient dedication to Tango. A truly dedicated teacher has enough interest in Tango to go beyond the actual dance itself. Almost everything about Tango needs to be of interest to the teacher. Things such as the music, Tango personalities, Tango history, etc. A teacher can convey such info to the student in bits and snippets. > > 8)A teacher needs to tell students (even beginners) about Tango-L, Tango-A and other Tango related websites. He should have bibliographies of books, videos and CD's (or at least he can refer students to sources or others who have) > > 9)A teacher doesn't name techniques, figures and steps that are being taught. (Terms and names are best given in Spanish because a foreign language is freer of the non-tango related connotations and associations then ones own native language has.) > If a teacher doesn't know the names of what he is teaching, one needs to wonder how much the teacher actually knows. > If a teacher knows but won't give names of what he is teaching, the teacher is probably attempting to control how rapidly a student is learning with the intent of keeping the student in the teacher's classes as long as possible. > 11)A teacher doesn't encourage note taking. > > 13)A lot of what is being taught is not being retained by a student.> > 21)A teacher who is unwilling to repeat or review prior material as often as is needed. I have already mentioned elsewhere in this posting a type of class structure that will accommodate this. > I would like to change the name of this thread to "Detecting sham and incompetent students" I am a teacher myself, even though it is not tango I teach, and I can tell you the kind of students that seriously wear down my patience: 7) A student who comes to class but shows no interest whatsoever into the background of what I am teaching. He never spends any of his free time going to the library trying to read up on things out of a deeper interest. At the same time, he blames me for not spoon feeding him any kind of information he is too lazy to study alone, and blames me if class time is not enough time to cover the all the necessary self study. 8) A student who asks me about every little thing that he could easily find out by himself if he tried. He keeps trying to burn up my energy instead of his own. 9) A student who gets all hung up on technicalities instead of trying to master the material itself without constantly theorising about it. 11) A student who is constantly bent over his notes when he should be communicating and be with what's going on in class instead. 13) A student whose brain functions like a strainer because he never reviews the material on his own and practises in his free time. 21) A student who always comes unprepared and then expects me to do his reviewing and memorising with him, because he does not want to do his homework by himself in his free time. Now, you tango teachers out there, do you and I have anything in common inthe way we see our students ? Astrid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:25:57 +0200 From: andy Ungureanu <andy.ungureanu@T-ONLINE.DE> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Tango Guy wrote: > You really need to quote everything I actually said. quoting whole mails is a very bad habit and against the list rules, even if there is nobody to control it for the moment. > I have the feeling you didn't read my email very well nor thought about it very thoroughly. You seem to have read things into it that wern't there and I didn't say. Yes, I have read things you did not write, but you should have written. I read the same thing as Michael Dittkoff or Astrid! I read that you are not a teacher, at least not a very experienced one, and that you are frustrated about some bad experiences. I read that you are trying to teach the teachers how to teach and behave. You are trying to explain to students how to recognize bad teachers. And my opinion to all this is that nobody will improve substantially their dance quality and teaching skills by reading any hints published in Tango-L. The students will loose their time with lengthy investigations and interrogations about the teachers vita. Instead of that, they should just look at the "products" of the teacher, to his advanced students, and decide if the teacher is able or not. Everything else the student needs, is his own work. The only criterium for me, after 8 years of tango, is how the teacher is dancing. If he is nice guy, if he knows all the singers by their names and when they recorded with Troilo for which company, if he has names for his steps is absolutely irelevant. Andy Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:55:57 -0700 From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers I know it is different for leaders, but my criteria for studying with someone is how they feel. Someone else already mentioned this, and I agree. I know even before the enbrace whether they have something to share with me. I recently has this experience with Komala Vos, I saw her she gave me a hug, I felt her energy all the way down to my toes and we just held each other, swaying slightly experiencing that exchange of energy. That was all it took and I learned something extremly valuable through that experience. When I studied with Graciela Gonzalez she had me place my hand on her abdomen while she did some adornments. She had told me that the adorments must come from my ovaries. I couldn't quite understand what that meant, I felt her, I felt where that feeling came from in her. I asked her more about it and she said simply, you have to find it for yourself, your experiences, the ways that you have loved. It wasn't until some time later when I was laying in bed making out with my boyfriend and while kissing him, unconsciously my legs had begun to move in a way that had I been standing up would have been the adornos. These and more experiences have led me to understand what it is I am seeking from a teacher. Not only someone who is grounded in technique, clear and articulate. But someone who can open up ways in which I can attain a greater understanding for myself. Regards, Rose Portland, OR Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:24:07 -0700 From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Yours are some interesting thoughts. Thanks. I like to think Tango is 50% technique and 50% heart and soul. You seem to express that idea well and in a way I would never have thought of. It seems many teachers teach the technique part but not the heart and soul part. Perhaps your approach to teacher choosing could supersede my list. Are there any other teacher around who teach the heart and soul part? Warm Regards Tango Guy Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM> wrote: I know it is different for leaders, but my criteria for studying with someone is how they feel. Someone else already mentioned this, and I agree. I know even before the enbrace whether they have something to share with me. I recently has this experience with Komala Vos, I saw her she gave me a hug, I felt her energy all the way down to my toes and we just held each other, swaying slightly experiencing that exchange of energy. That was all it took and I learned something extremly valuable through that experience. When I studied with Graciela Gonzalez she had me place my hand on her abdomen while she did some adornments. She had told me that the adorments must come from my ovaries. I couldn't quite understand what that meant, I felt her, I felt where that feeling came from in her. I asked her more about it and she said simply, you have to find it for yourself, your experiences, the ways that you have loved. It wasn't until some time later when I was laying in bed making out with my boyfriend and while kissing him, unconsciously my legs had begun to move in a way that had I been standing up would have been the adornos. These and more experiences have led me to understand what it is I am seeking from a teacher. Not only someone who is grounded in technique, clear and articulate. But someone who can open up ways in which I can attain a greater understanding for myself. Regards, Rose Portland, OR Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:15:04 GMT From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Tango Guy: You missed Razor Girl's message completely!! Her teacher said you have to learn that part (heart and soul) ON YOUR OWN. NOBODY can teach you how to be warm and passionate. People can teach you how to relax e.g. yoga, exercise; so that can you relax but nobody can teach you how to warm. You discover that on your own because it comes from inside. You write so fast you don't read!!! Michael Washington, DC I'd rather be dancing argentine tango --- Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM> wrote: Are there any other teacher around who teach the heart and soul part? Warm Regards Tango Guy Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM> wrote: I asked her more about it and she said simply,you have to find it for yourself, your experiences, the ways that you have loved. It wasn't until some time later when I was laying in bed making out with my boyfriend and while kissing him, unconsciously my legs had begun to move in a way that had I been standing up would have been the adornos. Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:45:15 -0500 From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers WAIT! WAIT! I never meant to say that a teacher from Argentina is better! Actually, this can be the hardest lesson for beginning students - just being born in Argentina doesn't make a good teacher! I've seen incredibly good teachers from the U.S. or Europe passed up for people from Argentina who were marginal. I actually think it's possible that the language barrier may make learning more difficult for some students. Perhaps the economy also can make Argentine teachers a little more desperate to hold on to students. I'd rather have a person who understands both my culture and Argentina, who can bridge that gap and explain tango in a way I can understand. What I DID mean to say is that someone who is serious enough about tango to travel there is less likely to be someone that learned from videotapes in order to capitalize on the "tango craze" It can be ADDED TO the criteria list already mentioned. That trip can give the person that "feel" that other writers have mentioned, in a way that no other experience can. Of course, there are people who have gone to Bs.As. without it ever opening their eyes. Lois from Mpls > -----Original Message----- > From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango > [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Guy Williams > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 12:47 PM > To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers > > > Lois Donnay wrote > <Another good question to add to the list: Have you been to Argentina? > This weeds out the people who have watched a video or taken a 6 week > series and start teaching. > > I still believe a trip to Bs.As. is necessary for anyone who is truly > serious about Argentine tango. I've seen the positive change > in quite a > few dancers, and certainly saw the change in me.> > > In an ideal world; but I hate travelling to the extent its > verging on phobia, but I've had a one good Argentinian > teacher ( a case of Mohammed and the mountain) > and a couple of lousy ones (plus good teachers from England, > Germany Nederlands ) so I can't agree. Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 15:39:43 -0800 From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers > Of course, there are people who have gone to Bs.As. without it ever > opening their eyes. And there are some very fine dancers who have been dancing tango for several years and have never been to Bs As. I know enough people who have gone to Bs As and who are still very much "Pata Dura" that I've dismissed this entirely as being a condition for a good or advanced dancer. And I'll add to the discussion that dancing and teaching are two very different things. Teaching (anything) is a skill that has to be developed and requires training and hard work to become proficient at. This is a skill above and beyond the ability to dance well. Becoming a good dancer is necessary first, but then you must learn how to teach. It is also possible for someone to be a better teacher than a dancer, i.e. their students become better dancers than the teachers themselves. And that's my major point, which has been mentioned already but deserves more emphasis. The mark of a good instructor is on their students. Go see how someone's students dance before you decide on an instructor. That's the only measurable outcome of a dance instructor. If their students aren't dancing in a way that appeals to you (which is a decision each prospective student needs to make on their own), go look somewhere else for an instructor. It's that simple. There's no need for a checklist. Finally, there are enough good instructors out there that we need not focus so acutely on the bad ones. Dan Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:44:58 -0600 From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers ><10)A teacher doesn't convey any sort of mental structure to the student.> >No. I can't agree with this. I plan a stucture that I use to teach >but students don't need to understand this. I endeavour to teach >them things that they will absorb physically not mentally. Too much >thinking is a hindrance to dancing. Students need to FEEL what their >partner is doing. I don't teach the salida because I learnt without >it and many beginners get hooked into recognising a patttern of >steps where there is none(eg a follower will put in a cross where >none is led). The salida is a tool to teach but not a prerequisite. >I see the salida as a coathanger on which new and different things >can be hung. > >I think improvisation is hard to teach as it requires the ability to >listen and interpret the music and this is a very hard skill to >convey. I do it intuitively but I don't know if its possible to >teach that inuition to someone else. Just 51% attention to the music >thatz all I ask. Three things. (1) As a teacher, you are INEVITABLY providing a mental structure, whether good or bad, complete or incomplete. As a teacher you are NECESSARILY providing the student a solution to the question of: What does it mean to "do tango"? For example: - Are you teaching social tango or performance tango (completely separate mental structures). - Is improvisational tango a set of figures that you split up, or is it a set of smaller elements that you assemble. - Does social tango consist of improvised figures in the middle of the floor or is it an improvised, line-of-dance "walk around the room". I've seen teachers and students who are quite dedicated to each one of these concepts...all of which are valid concepts of tango. Your choice of method, will have consequences for your students when they go out in the community....or to Buenos Aires. (2) It may be easier to teach someone a memorized pattern, but improvisation is NOT hard to teach. It requires thinking through your methodology. One way is to teach them how to split up and reassemble larger figures. Another way is to teach smaller elements and how to swap between them. Perhaps the more common method is based on splitting up longer sequences, but I find it easier to communicate improvisation based on smaller elements, because giving someone a longer pattern feeds into their analytical thinking, not their intuitive side. I feel it is easier to assemble small pieces. (3) As a SOCIAL dance teacher, I want to instill a mental structure of tango "the way it is danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires", meaning that for me tango is line of dance, improvised and rhythmic. My basic "mental structure of tango" is the following: - Tango is a rhythmic, walk of the woman led by the leader around the line of dance. - Tango is a LANGUAGE of movement - It is built by assembling smaller elements (vocabulary). - The basic phrasing (sentences) follows the 4+4=8 count phrasing of tango music. - The basic rhythms are primarily S-S-S-S and QQ-S steps - The feeling, embrace & connection are key aspects of tango. Even a beginner can dance grasp these concepts and be dancing tango the first day....improving with time, of course. -- Tom Stermitz https://www.tango.org/ stermitz@tango.org 303-388-2560 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:26:25 -0700 From: Leopoldo Betrico <iwanttotango@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Thank you Dan, for a very nice post. I strongly agree with your point about a trip to BsAs (or anywhere else in the world). It's definitely not a requisite for being a good dancer/dance teacher. And I too agree with the distinct difference between being a good dancer and a good teacher. I'd like to add a few more points... Different people dance for different reasons. Some people seek exercise, some connections, some performance, for some - a way to meet people, etc. Just keep in mind different people take up tango for different reasons. On top of this, different people learn in a different manner, and respond differently to how information is disseminate. Some are more technical & logical, while others prefer to feel, while others really need to see, etc. So, I don't believe that there is one perfect teacher for everyone. Every student will connect differently with different teachers. That being said, I believe that a good teacher should try to connect with their students and how the students process information. But inevitably, there's no one "true" teacher for everybody. I believe we currently have many solid teachers who teach in different ways. My last point would be that it's also the responsibility of the student to find out which instructors they respond best too. Tango is still very small (all over the world) as compared to other dances (salsa, etc). A student should try classes with as many teachers as possible, and then pick the few that they best relate to. If everyone does this, it will naturally weed out the so called "bad or sham" teachers. I don't think a list is necessary or definite. Just good judgement. Too often, in the modern society, people take information without thinking about it. People read the news and watch TV, then regurgitate it as if the information was sent from God. One should actively evaluate where the information is coming from and if it's feasible & makes sense. Same with tango classes. When a teacher teaches, does what he/she say makes sense to you. Can you relate to it? If not, ask questions. Does subsequent answers clarify things? If every student actively use their heads in classes, and every beginner tries a class with all the teachers, it will naturally get rid of those that most cannot relate to. (There just isn't enough new dancers coming in everyday to fully employ a car salesman). Best to all, Leopoldo Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:28:37 +0100 From: Guy Williams <guyzen@FREEUK.COM> Subject: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Mental Structure; Listening and Improvisation. <10)A teacher doesn't convey any sort of mental structure to the student. A structure is a way a student can think about Tango and its = techniques, movements, steps and figures. A good structure aids the student in his quest toward tango. A teacher needs to structure the = class and what he teaches along the lines of the mental structure he is attempting to convey.> 1. We are absorbed in many daily activities which require thinking. Dance is about hearing the music and moving in response to what you = hear. My aim is unload mental activity and feel things in a physical way, and feel things in an emotional way. The music has a structure but = you don't have to understand it to hear it and be moved. It has notes, keys, different instruments playing different times and melodies. You = can hear a violin playing staccato and know how it makes you feel you want to move without anyone telling you or whether you know what the = word staccato means. 2. Improvisation: One provides the basic steps available and the underlying 4/8 beat of tango music, but then its a matter of listening = and being inspired to move. 3. Listening to the music: I've only been to one tango class where the focus was to listening to the music and I don't think it was terribly = successful. I hypothesize that listening to music is a right brain activity and you get the left brain to think about it and it doesn't = engage and it was too alien an experience for us. If anyone wants to try a listening exercise try Captain Beefheart < Sheriff of Hong Kong> on = the CD <Doc at the Radar Station> and listen to what each instrument is doing in turn. It may sound cacophonous but it was all composed by Van = Vliegt there's no jamming by the musicians. I'm experimenting in my classes to try and get people to focus on hearing changes in the music, and getting them to suggest what step = movement might be appropriate. But I find it difficult to convey what I do instinctively and intuitively. I have to deconstruct what I'm doing = before I can even begin to express it in words and I'm not sure that I want to this - its too personal. 4. The structure is in the music: you have to hear it that's all. Guy Williams Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:44:59 -0400 From: "Gulden Ozen (Hall lab, postdoc)" <ozeng@NEURO.DUKE.EDU> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Dan, You have said it simply and perfectly. Having been to BsAs as well as being from BsAs are not the determining factors for a good teacher. A good teacher's students would be at the milongas and practicas, dancing and practicing with everyone not only with their classmates and this should provide the opportunity to the newcomer to ask those dancers about their teachers and their learning experience. Gulden Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:32:05 +0900 From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Tango guy wrote: "Detecting Sham and Incompetent Students" would be a nice counter-balance to mine. Your posting would be a good start. Perhaps you could create and post a list similar to mine and see what reaction is created. Ok, I'll try and humour you. Actually, my posting was meant to encourage self study and self examination, and having to spell everything out (IMO) unnecessarily, is exactly what I find so tiring, but I'll try. Let's see, what do "incompetent vs. competent" students that I teach have in common with tango students: 1) Their motive for studying partly determines their eventual success or failure (meaning: giving up and quitting or making little progress). Unhelpful motives to study are: because everybody/somebody else studies it because it is the "in" thing right now because they want to show off the fact that they are studying it because somebody made them (worst scenario: this somebody else, e.g. partner or parents, also pays their tuition) Helpful motives are: a genuine interest in the subject matter wanting to freshen up something they enjoyed doing in the past a thirst for development and growth, and a distaste for being stagnant trying to stay young and healthy by being active and keeping their brain cells working 2) attitude in class facilitates the learning process or slows it down Unproductive attitudes are: expecting to be entertained without contributing much effort getting bored quickly before trying to get into the depth of the matter shrinking from any kind of challenge that could make them confront their own inabilities trying to grab all the attention without leaving space for others (these students may actually learn a lot, but may find themselves in class by themselves eventually) trying to solve everything by the same familiar approach, and insisting on their old ways even against the teacher's advice quitting class upon being criticised by the teacher, or any kind of failure (saving ego over progress) forgetting formerly learned things upon being taught new stuff, instead of trying to mentally connect it to the new trying to learn in the "monkey way": by mindless copying, mechanical memorising, and accumulating information without sorting through it (though sadly, for some people this seems to be the best they can manage to do) trying to "outsmart" the teacher Productive attitudes are: being open to new ideas without immediately superimposing previously learned different patterns healthy curiosity experiencing failure with a sense of humour a certain tenacity when it comes to overcoming difficult patches; this can be powered by anger, patience, careful analysis and retracing one's steps, or a love of studying this trying to find and correct their own mistakes, then ask for help or confirmation not being embarrassed to ask questions or to ask for clarifications the joy of learning as such expressing expectations and making requests instead of acting silently resentful and complaining behind the teacher's back One more very important point is the ability of self assessment: the student has to be able to judge with a reasonable degree of accuracy his own level of learning There are those who grossly overestimate themselves, and choose classes that are way above their ability. This does not help them at all. There are those who hit a wall, because they are lacking certain fundamental without further progress is impossible. They have to be willing to go one or several levels down to cover the gaps in their learning, otherwise they will end up being able to nothing right. And then there are those, who shrink from any kind of challenge,or are just lazy, and perpetually stay in the low levels,going in circles. I have also had an elderly student who got addicted to his one time success: he would go to Vienna university every summer, enroll in the same course, write the same kind of essay on the same kind of topic at the end of the course, and try to win the same price again as he did the first time. It actually worked a couple of times...Reminds me of those dance teachers who dance the same choreo to the same music every time they give a demo performance somewhere, and relish the applause each time. Until the guest are so bored that they stop coming to their milongas. Or those milonga goers who have a lot of fans who get dazzled by their flashy steps,but a friend is whispering into my ear while I am watching:"He is always dancing the same thing !" Hope, this helps Astrid Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:21:43 -0400 From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Going to Bs As (Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers) Some say that going to Bs As should not need to be a prerequisite to being a good tango teacher. I disagree most emphatically. While there are people who go to Bs As and never go to milongas or open their eyes, I think that going to BAires is the single most important thing that an aspiring tango dancer can do. If one never goes to BAires, one will never "really" know what tango is all about. I would suppose that visits to certain part of Europe and select few places in the USA at special moments could give one the general feel of the tango as it should be danced to experience it in it's totality and in it's authenticity. A visit to BAires by a relative beginner or intermediate (or even advanced) level dancer can be an eye opening experience. I know from my personal experience that the few years of lessons in the USA, even by travelling Argentinean teachers, will not prepare the student for the reality of the tango scene and the milongas in BAires. After my first visit to BAires, I realized that I knew very little of dancing Argentine tango as it is done in the place where it originated from and where it is still danced in the traditional and wonderfully authentic way. Will all due respect to all parties, I don't see how anyone can really pretend to teach Argentine tango if they themselves do not know how it is done in the milongas of Buenos Aires... The "only" sure way to know this is to go there and experience it first hand. Now, I will not say that a teacher is a sham or is no good or cannot teach if he or she has not gone to Buenos Aires, but I will say that the possibility of he or she teaching actual tango the way it is danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires is remote at best. They might well teach effectively and with skill and diligence, and teach what they know and what they've been taught. But unless they were lucky enough to be taught by a teacher that really knows how the tango should be danced (rhythmically, effortlessly, with the music, with your partner, in the crowded floor) they probably do not know themselves. I've had the good luck and privilege of traveling around a good bit. I've gone to tango events in lots of places in the US and the world. While I've enjoyed myself and met many wonderful people, I've seen innumerable cases of people dancing what they thought was Argentine tango, but in reality had only the barest of similarities to the dance I love so much. Many do not know the most basic way to dance around the floor and do not understand or seem to care much about the rhythm. Many places do not have or know about the music of tango and what or when to play it. Lamentably, there is a lot of misinformation floating around. Lots of people who do not know much about tango will turn to forums such a this one. In their efforts to learn and in their admirable desire they look and read hither and yon... They choose and believe what sounds right and make sense to them. Alas, much of what's posted here is plain wrong or just flights of fancy or idle speculation. This leads folks to believe for instance that any music is suitable for dancing tango, or that tango consists of a bunch of steps done with a partner while some music plays! Of course, it's very hard to learn tango in this way. It's the blind leading the blind... I'm sure there is no evil intent or intentional fraud. Many sincere and honest folk will commit these acts of "tango battery" through sheer ignorance.... Of course, if you are one of the lucky ones who has a teacher who knows and has been to BAires, this does not apply to you. This message is not for those who already know but for those who are reading and trying to learn and decide about tango, and it's teachers. I'm sure somebody will read this to try to make sense of all the stuff they read about tango. I hope they will believe me when I tell them that there is no surer substitute for knowing tango than to go and drink from the fountain. By all means go to BAires, or at least please travel around to the more established tango communities in the USA or the world and see how it's done. Don't be discouraged and do not worry. What you'll see is what happens to everybody else. You'll be shaken and confused. All the steps you learned and practiced are likely to be almost useless in the milongas. This is where you learn about the music, now you'll see why the better DJs insist on playing the Golden Era music. You'll see and understand why the harmonica of Hugo Diaz is never heard at a milonga. Ditto the Piazzolla compositions, Thelonious Monk, or old time fiddle music (except as cortinas). OK, I'm off the soap box. I just want to get some of this off my chest. The tango deserves respect, treating it with respect means learning it. To learn it well, the teacher must know it, to know it they should go to Buenos Aires. Manuel visit our webpage www.tango-rio.com Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:44:22 -0700 From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM> Subject: Re: Going to Bs As (Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers) I agree with Manuel -- Al and I went to BA for the first time in early 1987, after less than a year of lessons in the US and it was a revelation. We had learned from several stage dancers from Tango Argentino, from Nora and Raul Dinzelbacher (Nora for many years now does and teaches social tango, but when she and her husband first came to San Francisco they were professional tango/folk dancers with no social experience), and from Jorge and Rosa Ledesma, great milongueros from Quilmes. Quilmes has (or had?} its own style, much more open and showy than that of Buenos Aires. Especially in regards to non-Argentine teachers, I think that (with exceptions, to whom, apoloqies) it would be very difficult to teach authentic tango without having visited the source. I know several quite fine instructors here who have not been to Argentina who teach, and dance, very well but still lack the flavor of the original. Even the best teachers who come here are all very different from each other and have a great deal to share, but cannot really communicate what happens on the dance floor. When we got to BsAs nothing we had learned prepared us for the reality of dancing at the milongas there. We took some lessons, but even these didn't register properly until we were directed to a big dance in Villa Urquiza where we found about 300 of the best milongueros in the world (not an exaggeration). We were about 50 years old at the time, and were the youngest people in the room. They maybe weren't milongueros by some definitions as mostly they were in couples, and far from the center of town. But as a group they were certainly the best social dancers we have seen to date. The only available footage of these dancers, and of course it loses much of the sponteneity, is the scene in Tango Bar. Many people go to Buenos Aires either with groups or with preconceived notions about what is social tango; this can really get in the way of what one sees. What we saw in clubs in the Center of the city in 1987 were mostly singles dancing very closely doing nothing much except walking and back ochos (No ochos cortados or turns). In Villa Urquiza the style was close to not-so-close depending on the movements, with much more intricate and subtle footwork than in the center at the singles clubs, done with the utmost elegance and exquisite musical interpretation. Until it closed (in about 1993??) I thought of the Friday milonga at Centro Akarense as heaven on earth. As younger dancers took up tango they would go to Akarense too; it attracted the very best. The places that carry on that tradition now are Sunderland and Sin Rumbo, also in Villa Urquiza, although neither can quite compare for quality and ambience. Probably most tango tourists never even see this type of tango, never leave the city center. So to really get the flavor of tango it's necessary to explore various barrios (Mataderos is another good one - Glorias Argentinas for example). Go with an open mind. Also try to go without an agenda, not to impress or to become a 'professional', but do try to learn as much as possible about the customs and culture of the milongas, such as eye contact, arriving without your regular partner if you have one, dancing out the tanda without saying 'Thank you' too soon, etc. Then, as Manuel points out, > Don't be discouraged and do not worry. What you'll see is what happens to > everybody else. You'll be shaken and confused. All the steps you learned and > practiced are likely to be almost useless in the milongas. This is where you > learn about the music, now you'll see why the better DJs insist on playing > the Golden Era music. You'll see and understand why the harmonica of Hugo > Diaz is never heard at a milonga. Ditto the Piazzolla compositions, > Thelonious Monk, or old time fiddle music (except as cortinas). you will not hear Hugo Diaz, no Salgan, much less hip-hop, Greek music or even concert variety Pugliese or early '30s Canaro for radio, at these dances. There are also dances which are more avant-garde, Catedral etc., and you can make up your own mind, but please at least try to acquaint yourself with traditional tango and don't believe everything your tour group leader tells you and/or everything you read on the Tango-L. You can believe me and Manuel, though if you want :-) Abrazos, Barbara Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 11:13:30 -0700 From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers Guy wrote, among other things: "A good teacher should know his limits: There are things I don't know and there are things I can dance that I can't teach, so I'm honest about it." That should be engraved in stone somewhere!!! So many teachers do just that, though!!! They try to teach something they themselves don't do, and do stuff on the dance floor that they can't teach. With absolutely no awareness of the dychotomy. Or not enough professional integrity to cop to it if they are. Confusing as all getout. Sooooo, not susrprisingly, the poor student winds up having either a nervous breakdown, or becoming downright schizophrenic. Somewhere down the line. And Frank wrote: "Being honest with students starts with being honest with oneself. ...and especially when the 'news' is bad..." Oh, Frank, you big kidder, now you know very well that would eliminate 99%! And Leopold wrote: ".... The teacher of a group class should be able to identify as soon as possible each kind of learner and be prepared to handle each different teaching situation accordingly..." Perhaps in a perfect world, but not in this one. Oh, your point is well taken. It's just that it's so extravagantly idealistic. Personally, I love it. But such teachers are few and far between as, I'm sure, you're aware. Actually, I've been fortunate enough to find one exactly like that. Restores your faith in the human race somehow. Luda ===== Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:05:04 -0700 From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM> Subject: Re: Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers > This thread seems pointed at people like me who haven't been to Buenos > Aires, regardless of the desire to do so, but have been literally drafted > into the role of instructor. Dear Ed, I would never have guessed that you haven't been to Mecca! Your dancing is about as authentic as anyone I know, and I expect your teaching is also. The teachers who I thing could benefit from a trip are especially those who collect hundreds of fancy steps without realizing that good dancers of AT seldom do more than one or two unique combinations in any 3-minute tango, they never go from one combination to another but do mostly walking and back ochos in between -- Actually my argument is with the types, including dj's, teachers and laity, that want to take the Argentine out of Argentine tango by playing music that would never be heard at a milonga in BA ( I can handle one Hugo Diaz but that's about all), by doing all kinds of lifts, drops, twirls etc. And some of these types are Argentines (there are probably a dozen of them in BA too). And the close embrace fanatics who go to the Paris of the South but never leave the city center and believe whatever their tour guide tells them. Just going to Argentina doesn't guarantee a genuine tango experience. I got this reply from a friend regarding my post, and with his permission am forwarding the exchange to the list: > This thread seems pointed at people like me who haven't been to Buenos > Aires, regardless of the desire to do so, but have been literally drafted > into the role of instructor. Dear Ed, I would never have guessed that you haven't been to Mecca! Your dancing is about as authentic as anyone I know, and I expect your teaching is also. The teachers who I think could benefit from a trip are especially those who collect hundreds of fancy steps without realizing that good dancers of AT seldom do more than one or two unique combinations in any 3-minute tango, they never go from one combination to another but do mostly walking and back ochos in between -- Actually my argument is with the types, including dj's, teachers and laity, that want to take the Argentine out of Argentine tango by playing music that would never be heard at a milonga in BA ( I can handle one Hugo Diaz but that's about all), by doing all kinds of lifts, drops, twirls etc. And some of these types are Argentines (there are probably a dozen of them in BA too). And the close embrace fanatics who go to the Paris of the South but never leave the city center and believe whatever their tour guide tells them. Just going to Argentina doesn't guarantee a genuine tango experience. Best to all, Barbara Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:04:01 -0700 From: Leopoldo Betrico <iwanttotango@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Going to Bs As (Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers) This is a response to Barbara Garvey's post about the requirement of going to BsAs before teaching: Just a little background: I love to travel, and it makes me especially happy that there are opportunities to dance tango all over the world (certain places getting better by the years). I'm even lucky enough to be employed abroad :) Barbara, with all due respect, tango in San Francisco in 1987 is a tremendously different scene than tango in San Francisco in 2003. Tango in BsAs in 1987 is also a different tango scene than it is now in 2003. There are much more younger people getting into tango down here. I have friends in San Francisco and Portland (in the US), so I get some chances to travel there to see friends and dance some. I don't believe that Tango is an exclusive property of Argentina, or to be more specific, BsAs. I've danced in Paris, Brussels, the Netherlands, San Francisco, Portland, etc, and have danced with people who cared and felt what tango (means to them) and some similarities to people in BsAs. I've talked and discussed many topics with teachers abroad (some of whom are better than the teachers back in BsAs). I would love (love, love, love) for people to come to BsAs to visit and experience the city & the culture & and the tango life. But NOT on the basis that it will make them a better tango teacher. Or on the basis that they will find true tango, etc, etc, etc. I would prefer that people came because they were interested in the history of tango, live music, our culture, and meeting the people of BsAs. A true genuine interest. Those who seek to find the "feeling" of tango, or what it means to them will find it regardless of whether they come to BsAs or not. There are many thriving communities in Europe, and recently some are starting to take a nice shape in the US. I believe that there is a certain critical mass (or population) within the community that is necessary to foster and exchange the love of tango, which will eventually produce tango musicians, which will eventually produce their own little tango history. So, if you live or dance in a small tango community, then it's definitely much tougher to experience this. Which is why I completely respect Manuel's post. So, if one is from a small tango community then one must travel to gain a deeper experience. Where to go? Well, anywhere that has a strong community. But if you're also GENUINELY interested in it's history, our history, great live music, the people, etc., and it's not cost prohibitive, then why not kill two birds with one stone and come to BsAs. But if you live in Europe and you're a train ride from nice communities there, got a small wallet, then you have your options. To summarize my points: - If you live in a small tango community, then the chances of you experiencing the so called "deep" tango feeling is likely minimal. But the more important matter is that you open yourself always when you dance so that you can experience anything that comes your way. - It is possible to be a good tango teacher without having been to BsAs. But this is not to encourage people from not travelling. Travelling is good, it frees the mind. The statement is merely to open other people minds (most of whom think that they get their tango badge the moment they step off the plane in Aeropuerto Ezeiza). - The thriving communities abroad, keep thriving, and keep teaching :) - And if you're truly intersted in BsAs culture, people, and our live music, then please come. But don't call us the mecca. Call us home :) Best, Leopoldo Continue to New Diego y Carolina Interview \| ARTICLE INDEX

1439 Detecting sham and incompetent Teachers