4105  Dialogue between a milonguero and a tanguero

Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 03:13:18 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Dialogue between a milonguero and a tanguero

A new tango magazine recently has been launched in Buenos Aires.
ArgenTango, published in Castellano and English, is edited by Gabriel Srur
and published by Editorial Blur. editorialblur@hotmail.com


Dialogue between a Milonguero and a Tanguero by Marcelo Castelo

To begin it would be useful to define in some way who is who, nevertheless
it is very difficult to categorize to the population or to polarize it in
"milonguero and tanguero." Despite one brief and generalized description of
the two antagonistic behaviors in the tango, it will help in understanding
the following dialogue.

Milonguero: a person with a great passion for the dance. Whenever he can, he
escapes to a milonga. Generally, he is not very affected by the singers or
other artistic manifestations of tango except the dance. He considers tango
can only be felt through the dance.

Tanguero: a person who always gets into any fact related to tango. He
listens to tango all day long, but he does not dance it. Generally, he has
more knowledge of the music and history of tango than the milonguero. His
main interest is the tango song.

Now, let us imagine an afternoon in some cafe of Buenos Aires where the
clients are playing cards, billiards, and talking about politics. Oscar the
"tanguero" sings some tango of Manzi or Discepelo while reading the
newspaper. Pocho the "milonguero" enters and starts talking to his friend,
saying:

Pocho: What's up Oscar? You are always singing. When will you learn to
dance?
Oscar: Why?
Pocho: What do you mean, why? If you truly want to feel tango, you have to
learn to dance.
Oscar: Don't be stupid. You dance only because that is the only way you
pick up a girl.
Pocho: Look, girls get close to me because of my elegance, but I have never
seen you with anyone.
Oscar: Of course, I do not need to show off. I don't need to dance, a chat
is enough. Besides, how can you speak about tango, if you do not even know
what the compas of 2X4 means?
Pocho: I do not need to know because I feel tango with my soul, not with my
brain.
Oscar: How can you feel if you don't know the lyrics or why they were
written. If you miss the poetry, the feeling does not exist.
Pocho: Noooo, you have no idea what you are talking about. Nowadays, music
without words is nothing.
Oscar: I didn't say that, but without poetry, a tango is certainly
incomplete.
Pocho: And without dancing it, the feeling is incomplete as well.
Oscar: Then Gardel, Troilo, D'Arienzo or Pugliese did not feel tango
because they did not dance. Stop saying silly things. Don't you realize
that tango can exist without dancers, but you cannot dance without music.
Pocho: Look how little you know. For your information, the decay of the
tango began with the singers, who turned the milonga into something boring
and you could not dance.
Oscar: The one that knows nothing is you. Singers were hated by envious
idiots like you, because in the milongas the girls died for them.
Pocho: Stop saying silly things, tango is known all over the world thanks to
the dance.
Oscar: Sure, you are going to say that Gardel is a stranger to me and who
did nothing for tango.
Pocho: Look, before Gardel, tango was known by the dance and after him it
grew thanks to the dance.
Oscar: Maybe, but when one speaks about tango, the first things that comes
to mind is Gardel, a singer.
Pocho: Do you know the trouble with tangueros like you? They think they
know everything but they do not know the main thing--dance. They talk, but
they do not feel.
Oscar: You think you are the owners of tango and the only thing you can feel
when you are dancing is foot pain.
Marito, another client in the cafe, decides to take part in the discussion.
Marito: Look guys, in reality tango is made by people. Each one
contributes in his own way--the poets, the musicians, the singers, the
tangueros, and the milongueros. If anyone of them were missing, tango would
be incomplete. It is like a car race--the driver is useless without a car,
and the car with the driver. They could not run the race without
spectators. As Pancho Ibanez said, "everything has to do with everything."
The other day, my tango professor...
In unison, Pocho and Oscar interrupted him...What? Tango professor?
Pocho: You heard that Oscarcito...Look boy, tango is not learned with a
professor, they just teach you steps without feelings. They turn you into a
robot while they rob you of your money.
Oscar: Let it go, Pocho. Do you know how much it will take to make him
understand you? Besides, how can he speak if he did not live it, never
breathed tango with the great orchestras or Duran and Sosa. Ask your
professor if he has ever danced to Di Sarli or D'Arienzo live. Then maybe we
can sit and talk.
Pocho: In addition, they teach you to jump and do acrobatics, but about
maintaining the embrace, walking or following the beat, nothing.
Oscar: Yes, yes, you are right. Now they dance with that invention of
Electronic Tango! Now, you ask them who were the singers, the name of the
author of some tango or some Lunfardo word, and they have no idea.
Pocho: Let it go, Oscar. This guy is too green to know what we are talking
about.
Oscar: You are right, my brother. Jorge, bring me two glasses of wine and
a chocolate for the kid.
Pocho and Oscar: Hah, hah, hah...

Maybe this is fiction or perhaps reality, but one thing is certain--that
portenos use the cafe tables to argue the everlasting duality of
antagonists-friends, as well as radicals v. Peronists, Boca v. River, or
Ford v. Chevrolet. The figure of tanguero versus milonguero forms part of
the colorful porteno landscape and of course, the tango. Let us hope that
the new generations know how to interpret this duality and add some new
personality. Why not?

Note: The reproduction in total or in part of any of the articles, sections
or graphic material in this magazine is permitted siting the source.
ArgenTango Ano 1 Numero 1 2006 Editorial Blur editorialblur@hotmail.com
Buenos Aires, Argentina.

Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:26:32 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Dialogue between a milonguero and a tanguero

A difference between a tanguero and a milonguero?

It looks like a difference between a newspaper expert in water sports and a
swimmer who actually swims in Hawaii waters.

Between a magazine editor writing about math, and a mathematician who proves
theorems and solves the problems.

Between a tourist enjoying the world sitting in front of his TV and a London
street walker.

...

Troilo, D'Arienzo or Pugliese did not have to dance Tango.
They PLAYED tango, they watched people who dance to moves of their fingers!

There were Tango Gods!

Igor Polk

Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 21:04:46 -0600
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Dialogue between a milonguero and a tanguero

This is kind of long, but how about a thoughtful and informed (?how
great would that be?) dialogue (or multi-logue?) about the terms
milonguero and tanguero. In the first place most people who aren't
experienced in tango think of dancers as tangueros; no one outside of
the culture has any idea what a milonguero is.

Question #1: I don't see why the term tanguero should exclude dancers
who are also interested in any or all aspects of tango in a more
intellectual sense -- the music, lyrics, history, Gardel, politics, etc.
Can't a person be a milonguero and a tanguero?

Question #2: Then there is the thorny question of who is a milonguero. I
was told by a number of people during our first visits to Bs As in the
'80s and early '90s that anyone who danced at milongas frequently, for
whom this was a major part of his/her life, was a milonguero. No further
description, such as a certain style of dancing, of lifestyle, or
milonga venue, was mentioned. Of course this was before the close
embrace style of tango was identified, invented, labeled, taught,
promoted, whatever, as the "milonguero" style. People who danced in
close embrace in clubs in the center of the city, usually without their
wives, were called milongueros, as were also dancers who went with their
wives to clubs or social centers in more residential neighborhoods and
favored a more open or open-and-closed style. There was of course a
consciousness that in the past the term milonguero, especially in the
feminine gender, had implied a questionable reputation, but that that
was no longer considered true, at least in tango circles.

I would welcome some input, especially by Argentines, especially by
Argentines with more than a few years of tango experience (are there
any such on this List?). Here are some specific questions:

*Would a professional dancer who goes to milongas frequently when
possible be a milonguero? Does it matter if s/he goes without his/her
partner or spouse? If he/she dances close embrace? I'm thinking the
Zottos, Guillermina Quiroga,
etc. Or if s/he dances salon style, like Nito and Elba. What about
Facundo and Kelly? We also know several professionals (not those
mentioned above) who are called milongueros who were never seen dancing
off-stage until it became fashionable to be a milonguero.

* What if that same professional had a deep intellectual interest in the
history of tango, in Gardel, etc. would s/he be a tanguero/a?? Of course
a professional usually would have a strong knowledge of music, lyrics, too.

* What about perfectly respectable people who go to the milongas
frequently (some of these folks are no longer with us, but they should
still be well known) -- women like Ada (widowed), Margarita (married to
a husband who doesn't dance), Portalea, Lampazo.

* Or people who go often or usually with their spouse?? Not to mention
their grandchildren and mother-in-law? The folks at Sunderland, are they
not milongueros?

* Is is required to be Argentine to be a milonguero? I bet that there
are foreigners who have danced tango considerably longer than some
portenos who are known as "old milongueros".

* Last but not least -- does someone have to be a really good dancer to
be a milonguero? What about someone with many years experience who isn't
all that terrific? And whose standards do we use to decide?

So, how about it?
Abrazos,
Barbara

Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 07:32:15 -0800
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Dialogue between a milonguero and a tanguero

Barabara writes; <<<<This is kind of long, but how
about a thoughtful and informed (?how
great would that be?) dialogue (or multi-logue?) about
the terms
milonguero and tanguero. In the first place most
people who aren't
experienced in tango think of dancers as tangueros; no
one outside of
the culture has any idea what a milonguero is.>>>>>
Just a quick note on the subject, before I have to get
out of town for the weekend....
In Buenos Aires in January, I discussed this a bit
with a local native tango teacher. She told me that
virtually everyone in Argentina should be considered
"tanguero or tanguera", because they have grown up on
the music; there is no dancing required.
The music comes first.

Everybody have a great weekend!

Michael in Houston