1792 approach teaching tango
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:45:55 EDT
From: TimmyTango@AOL.COM
Subject: approach teaching tango
I personally have tried both ways of teaching tango, Memorized patters and
small elements.
What I've learned is in the memorized patters, the leaders first, only think
of their foot patters, not giving much thought of the lady's steps. And by
doing this they also don't listen to the music. I feel the best approach to
teaching social dancing is not to teach choreography, but by just teaching the
student to just move on the dance floor rhythmically. I feel it's better to do
simple steps to the music, than to do more difficult steps not to the music.
Teaching small elements doesn't put much pressure on the mind of the leader.
What do I do next? the student can get more confidence in themselves faster
and want to continue on with more advanced lessons.
Another vert important item that must happen is that the follower do exactly
what the leader leads, even if the leader is leading the step incorrectly. The
follower should not do what the teacher taught for that lesson, but what the
man leads. It is good that the lady knows what she is support to do only to
help the man, but they must work together for the final result. The leader will
learn much faster if he sees the true results of his leading. The lady will
learn to follow much faster is she just do what the leader leads, and not
anticipate.
Timmy
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:06:17 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: approach teaching tango
> rhythmically. I feel it's better to do
> simple steps to the music, than to do more difficult
> steps not to the music.
> Teaching small elements doesn't put much pressure on
> the mind of the leader.
I agree with this.
I like a connection centered approach, where it's not
so important what the step is, but the quality of the
step. I know this isn't often focused on because
students aren't excited about it...but actually any
time I have attempted to show a beginning dancer a
glimpse of the type of connection you can have with
your partner through tango it has inspired them. It
would be hard to illustrate in a group lesson though.
I also think it's important to teach leaders to
understand the follower's steps, and to think in terms
of where the follower is and what the possibilities
are from moment to moment. I don't know if you would
call this a structural approach or a small elements
approach. Often times when someone has memorized a
pattern, even if they execute it musically it doesn't
work because they have no respect for the dynamic of
the other person. Leaders who are taught the idea of
indicating the lead and then following the follower
are the better dancers.
Rose
Portland,OR
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:51:30 -0800
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: approach teaching tango
> I like a connection centered approach....
>It would be hard to illustrate in a group lesson though.
It is hard for those instructors whose focus is elsewhere. However,
those instructors who have made this a priority in their teaching and
have put enough thought into how to teach this, do so VERY effectively
and convincingly.
> Leaders who are taught the idea of
> indicating the lead and then following the follower
> are the better dancers.
This is a beautiful sentence.
Dan Boccia
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:42:24 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: approach teaching tango
" Leaders who are taught the idea of
> indicating the lead and then following the follower
> are the better dancers."
I wonder if anyone can expand on this concept.
What is the meaning of this.
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:26:11 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: approach teaching tango
Rose,
You just hit the nail in the head. Thank you for such inspiring words.
Carlos Rojas
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 5:06 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] approach teaching tango
> rhythmically. I feel it's better to do
> simple steps to the music, than to do more difficult
> steps not to the music.
> Teaching small elements doesn't put much pressure on
> the mind of the leader.
I agree with this.
I like a connection centered approach, where it's not
so important what the step is, but the quality of the
step. I know this isn't often focused on because
students aren't excited about it...but actually any
time I have attempted to show a beginning dancer a
glimpse of the type of connection you can have with
your partner through tango it has inspired them. It
would be hard to illustrate in a group lesson though.
I also think it's important to teach leaders to
understand the follower's steps, and to think in terms
of where the follower is and what the possibilities
are from moment to moment. I don't know if you would
call this a structural approach or a small elements
approach. Often times when someone has memorized a
pattern, even if they execute it musically it doesn't
work because they have no respect for the dynamic of
the other person. Leaders who are taught the idea of
indicating the lead and then following the follower
are the better dancers.
Rose
Portland,OR
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:43:11 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: approach teaching tango
I first learned about this when I took a private class with Zoraida
Fontclaire [of Diego & Zoraida](sorry if I misspell her name, she is a
great teacher), followed by a private class with Graciela Gonzalez
(another great teacher) 2 weeks later on the same topic.
What I understood and hopefully learned, is that we as leaders are only
in the dance floor as a "worker" for her, we propose her a step, then
she decides how and when the step is taken (just like in real life),
then we followed her and try to step just a fraction of a second after
her. This approach makes the worker appear smoother because the focus
point is her step and not the worker's.
Other teachers have told me the same thing using other words, "dance
with her energy".
Zoraida started me on this topic after we danced at her afternoon
practice at La Ideal, she said that I danced in a way that made the
woman feel that she was not stepping on time, when in reality I was the
one not stepping on time, and thus did not feel like a smooth worker.
Hope this helps.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 5:42 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] approach teaching tango
" Leaders who are taught the idea of
> indicating the lead and then following the follower
> are the better dancers."
I wonder if anyone can expand on this concept.
What is the meaning of this.
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:14:37 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: approach teaching tango
" Leaders who are taught the idea of
> indicating the lead and then following the follower
> are the better dancers."
Sergio wrote:
>>> I wonder if anyone can expand on this concept.
What is the meaning of this.
<<<
This reminds me of what Daniel Trenner used to say, more or less:
There are two main ways of leading, and they both work.
One is the "caveman" approach - you force her to go HERE, then THERE, and
right NOW. It is controlling, effective, forceful, and has a brutal edge to
it. A powerful, padlocked embrace that feels very firm and unyielding to
the follower. It relies primarily on the leader's feeling for the music, and
how he forces his vision of the music in his partner's body. In my
experience, some followers really like it from some leaders sometimes.
Leading by dragging her around by the hair, so to speak. From an observer's
point of view, attention tends to be on the leader almost all the time, and
the typical follower will tend to disappear. A really great follower can
make this style look good by working very hard to stay on top of the flow of
leads - sort of like surfing a really big wave that doesn't care if you're
there.
The other is the "gentleman" approach, which he also called "following her
follow of my lead." Although translation can be tricky, I think this more
closely matches some of the nuances of the Spanish "marcar" and
"responder" - to "indicate" and "respond." As Daniel would portray it
metaphorically, this is leading by guiding: showing a way for the follower
to move, then WAITING to see if and when the follower responded before
initiating his ACCOMPANYING movement. In my experience, most followers
prefer this style from most leaders most of the time. As I learned it, the
average follower will find a more creative voice within this way of leading
a dance - the leader is more likely to give them room for an adornment
sometimes. In my experience, this way of leading produces trance states more
reliably. It allows for more inspiration from the follower to flow to the
leader, so the leader doesn't have to rely exclusively on the music for
inspiration - he can draw from the follower as well. Observers will note
their attention shifting from leader to follower and back again, depending
on the conversational moments taking place between them.
For a variety of reasons, my partner and I focus primarily on teaching the
second way.
It is also possible to combine both ways, even within a single dance. This
can be a very rich exploration in communication and expression.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:27:38 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: approach teaching tango
>" Leaders who are taught the idea of
> indicating the lead and then following the follower
> are the better dancers."
This should shed some light on this subject. I'm thinking about Barbara's wise comments awhile back! ;o) I remember when i was starting out teaching myself Tango, a friend saying quite a few times, you dance the follower's footwork.
Sparky
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:47:11 -0700
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: approach teaching tango:lead/follow/follow
Dear Sergio and list,
Please excuse the explicitness of this reply to Sergio's question; I
sometimes find that lovely sounding phrases such as "dance in her energy" or
"proposing and disposing" or "inviting the lady" are helpful philosophically
but aren't often specific enough for beginning dancers. Al and I also use
such concepts but illustrate them very precisely:
The way Al and I teach lead/follow is that the leader leads with his chest
and the follower follows the chest lead with her feet, or by turning her
body, then the leader follows the direction of the leader with his step. For
example to take a forward step for the leader, he begins with his weight
clearly on his right foot, brings his upper body forward almost
imperceptively, which causes the follower to step back on her right foot. He
then follows her by stepping forward with his left foot. We call it the
lead/follow/follow.
To step to the side, as in what is generally called step 2, the leader moves
his upper body very slightly to the left without twisting it or pivoting,
causing his partner to step to her right; he then follows with a slightly
larger step to the left with his left foot. The size of his initial
upper-body movement should determine the size of the follower's step, which
determines the size of his side step, which ideally will indicate the length
of steps the leader plans to take in the rest of the dance.
All of this happens in a split second; it is amost imperceptible by either
the follower or anyone watching, but the follower will do her part
unthinking (that's the key!) unless she is determined not to. The technique
presupposes good posture
on the part of both dancers -- diaphragm up, forward and strong, shoulders
relaxed, back and down, lower body grounded in the floor.
In my opinion the three most important rules for following are 1, the
posture mentioned above, 2, maintaining as strongly as possible a parallel
position to her partner with her upper body, and 3, la colocacion de los
pies, the habit of bringing or brushing through the ankle bones and knees or
thighs on each step and stopping with feet together and touching (or
sandwiching her partner's foot if it is in the way.).
These techniques, or close variations of them, have been stressed by all of
our major teachers who include (but are not limited to) Fino Ribera,
Orlando Paiva, Danel and Maria, Pupi Castello, Roberto 'El Pibe del Abasto'
Grassi, Nito and Elba, Lampazo, Graciela Gonzalez and Florencia Taccetti.
Barbara
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 6:42 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] approach teaching tango
> " Leaders who are taught the idea of
> > indicating the lead and then following the follower
> > are the better dancers."
>
>
> I wonder if anyone can expand on this concept.
> What is the meaning of this.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 6:42 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] approach teaching tango
> " Leaders who are taught the idea of
> > indicating the lead and then following the follower
> > are the better dancers."
>
>
> I wonder if anyone can expand on this concept.
> What is the meaning of this.
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:52:28 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: approach teaching tango:relax
--- Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
wrote:
> In my opinion the three most important rules for
> following are 1, the posture mentioned above, 2,
>maintaining as strongly as possible a parallel
>position to her partner with her upper body, and 3,
> la colocacion de los pies, the habit of bringing or
>brushing through the ankle bones and knees or thighs
>on each step and stopping with feet together and
>touching (or sandwiching her partner's foot if it is
>in the way.).
I would add another one which is "Relax!". So many
people teach that you have to do this or that when
dancing, that they make tango harder than it needs to
be. Followers end up thinking too much and
second-guessing.
We've been studying Alexander Technique recently,
which helps one release muscle tension and patterns of
holding. One finds that in learning to relax, the
body moves in a way that actually matches many tango
techniques. For example, relaxing the muscles in the
thigh will naturally bring the leg under the center of
one's axis because the leg is designed to do that. I
think this helps explain why mothers, sisters,
cousins, etc. were able to teach others tango without
having a degree in ballet.
If you haven't tried Alexander Technique yet, we
highly recommend it.
Trini de Pittsburgh
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:05:13 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: approach teaching tango:lead/follow/follow
Barbara Garvey wrote:
"Al and I also use such concepts but illustrate them very precisely:
The way Al and I teach lead/follow is that the leader leads with his chest
and the follower follows the chest lead with her feet, or by turning her
body, then the leader follows the direction of the leader with his step. For
example to take a forward step for the leader, he begins with his weight
clearly on his right foot, brings his upper body forward almost
imperceptively, which causes the follower to step back on her right foot. He
then follows her by stepping forward with his left foot. We call it the
lead/follow/follow."
To continue in Barbara's very useful "left-brained" mode of precise
description:
As Barbara describes, the leader's lead SHOULD cause the follower's foot to
move first. We've found it important to stress that the "leader's follow of
the follow" BEGINS AFTER the follower is "on the way" to her next step, but
ENDS SIMULTANEOUSLY with the follower's arrival at her new step. He
"overtakes" her on the way to her next step, so that both arrive together.
The difference between this and the "leader first" view is very easy to
teach and to observe. Everybody watching can see whether the leader's foot
or the follower's foot starts moving first. If his foot is moving first, by
definition he's not waiting for her follow. Also, if he starts first,
generally he's unconsciously committed to the size of the step he's going to
take, without really knowing where the follower is going to actually go,
since she hasn't started to move yet. This tends to damage the connection,
lower the chances of a tango trance, and reduce her to trying to keep up to
his lead, which is now off & running on a track of its own without regard to
her.
In describing this, (to get right-brained again ;) )one image we like to use
is to have the leader imagine that he now has four feet, and he has to move
the foot attached to the follower's leg first, but that both moving feet
(his & hers) have to "get there on the beat."
Another perspective:
Because the human eye is drawn unconsciously to movement, if the leader's
feet start moving first in any step, those watching will find their
attention drawn away from the follower's beautiful legs,
skirt/dress/tights/stockings, shoes & feet, and focusing instead on the
(usually far less attractive) leader's trousers & shoes. ;)
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:58:26 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: approach teaching tango:lead/follow/follow
Brian writes:
>Because the human eye is drawn unconsciously to movement, if the leader's
>feet start moving first in any step, those watching will find their
>attention drawn away from the follower's beautiful legs,
>skirt/dress/tights/stockings, shoes & feet, and focusing instead on the
>(usually far less attractive) leader's trousers & shoes. ;)
Hmmm, now if we can just get more spins for the followers similar to swing dancing
& some twirly skirts... ;o)
