86  Attitude rant

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:25:50 -0700
From: JEAN LEDUC <jean_leduc22@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Attitude rant

Robert says:
"The guys who are going through this seem to
dance almost exclusively with the beginning women, and they teach all
night on the dance floor."

Most of them are intermediate dancers .This is their specialty, they select
the most vulnerable and inexpert usually good looking ,poor women! to start
"impressing" them with their knowledge.
Women that have taken only two or three lessons are all of the sudden lead
into calesitas, bridges, jumps and only God knows what else.
I entirely agree with Robert, teaching at the milongas should be forbidden.
This is not only distressing for the followers but also for the other
dancers.

But to be fair you also run into the intermediate/advanced follower aspiring
to become a teacher that starts asking all sort of questions in the middle
of the dance. -"Why! Neat! how do you lead that? -" etc. etc.

Then you have the couples that start trying all the difficult steps that
they just learnt.As problems arise they start blaming each other in the mid
of the floor, sometimes the music stops and they are still arguing. :0).

Then you have the ones that do the difficult stuff, pulling and pushing the
poor woman as if she was a "RaggetyAnn" doll.

Then there is* us * :-) that politely ask for a dance, walk easily while we
get the feeling of the woman's skill, introducing easy turns and pivots.
Never criticize, compensate for any mistakes so that she does not notice
that there was one, do not disturb the other dancers, and try to have a good
time at the same time.:-) * Not always sometimes we also do some of the
above abominations, we are also human after all!
Chau!

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:17:52 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

--- Robert Hauk <robhauk@teleport.com> wrote:

> Mark,
>
> Again I am sorry I took so long to reply.

Hey, pal, there's no "expiration date". Thanks for
writing to me.

I like what you said earlier about dancing the dance
your partner is capable of. I think the thing that
yanks my chain about dance floor training sessions is,
it isn't fair!

I work out steps with friends. Even at social dances,
we sometimes find a corner to work something out. In
these cases, we're both agreeing to it! If someone
accepts my invitation to dance and I turn it into a
"lesson", well, did she KNOW that's what she was
agreeing to? Is that what she consented to do?

I have a friend who says that no one is so eager to
give her a lesson on the social dance floor as a
beginning dancer... who now thinks he's an
intermediate one.

I suppose no one is going to debate the point because,
either they don't see themselves in this description
or they think their approach is somehow okay. I think
people usually don't feel good when they're held
captive as "students" during a tanda, even if the tips
are relevant and helpful.

The best that can be done is to raise the point again
and again. Hopefully, newcomers will realize they
need to curb their enthusiasm for instructing. The
only solution for self-styled teachers who have been
dancing a while lies in the hands of the women. If
they don't like what's happening, they can decline
the invitations.

I wonder how they feel about turning men down. Is it
hard to do? Are they reticent to do it because maybe
there aren't enough men to dance with? Is it simply
uncomfortable to say no or that you're "resting"?

Maybe it isn't as much a problem (not as frequent or
disturbing) as I've been assuming? I was surprised
that I didn't hear more outrage from women after my
initial post. I see this happening on the dance floor
a lot. Maybe it doesn't tend to bother them as much
as it would bother me.

Mark

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:53:52 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

Mark wrote:

>I have a friend who says that no one is so eager to
>give her a lesson on the social dance floor as a
>beginning dancer... who now thinks he's an
>intermediate one.

>Maybe it isn't as much a problem (not as frequent or
>disturbing) as I've been assuming? I was surprised
>that I didn't hear more outrage from women after my
>initial post. I see this happening on the dance floor
>a lot. Maybe it doesn't tend to bother them as much
>as it would bother me.

I wonder if women are not responding to this discussion because the women
who participate in this forum are not the beginners who are the target of
such teachers. I have noticed that frequently women who are the target of
such teaching tend to be the younger, better looking ones while the
self-proclaimed teachers are older and less attractive. Guess how long the
woman remains active in the tango community.

--Steve de Tejas

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:12:09 EDT
From: Debra Mugnani <TangoDebra@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

In a message dated 7/24/01 2:16:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG writes:

<< I have noticed that frequently women who are the target of
such teaching tend to be the younger, better looking ones while the
self-proclaimed teachers are older and less attractive. Guess how long the
woman remains active in the tango community. >>

From my experience, you can't really generalize on this one. When I first
started dancing I was getting "pointers" from all sorts of leaders old and
young, attractive and unattractive. Sometimes I appreciated it, sometimes I
really wasn't in the mood for a lesson especially when the fellow was
actually contradicting something I'd been told in a proper class I'd attended
earlier in the evening! Now that I've been dancing over two years, (it did
not scare me off, but I think I'm a fairly thick skinned person and the love
of the music and the feeling of the dance outweighed the criticism) I still
notice there are a few men who give me pointers. The rest have long since
stopped. I kind of see the few who still do as hyper critical,
perfectionist types who aren't quite there yet themselves with their dance
and have to shift the blame for things not going so smoothly onto their
partner. I also notice that a few of the ones who were so busy giving me
pointers and dancing one or two tandas with me at milongas when I was
starting out, no longer seem to dance with me now that I've actually become a
better dancer and not in need of instruction. I often notice them dancing
with beginner dancers and doing their "helpful pointer" routine. Perhaps,
they enjoy the position of being a helpful teacher and as you say are
"checking out" the new women. I'm sure there is also a certain sense of
accomplishment when they see the novice dance friend start to make
improvements.

Debra

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:51:41 -0400
From: Michelle DeBlasi <shelbells@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

Steve wrote:
"I wonder if women are not responding to this discussion because the women
who participate in this forum are not the beginners who are the target of
such teachers. I have noticed that frequently women who are the target of
such teaching tend to be the younger, better looking ones while the
self-proclaimed teachers are older and less attractive. Guess how long the
woman remains active in the tango community."

As a beginning follower (new to the list) who's found myself in this
situation numerous times, I'd like to make a response to this.

I can describe the three scenarios that I most commonly encounter at
milongas... with approximately equal frequency. The delightful scenario is
one in which the leader asks me to dance, and I accept, and he leads and I
follow... as best as I am able. I'm sure I make more than an occasional
misstep, or misinterpret a lead, or have bad form; but rather than point
this out to me, he himself will make some sort of compensatory move which
permits us to continue relatively smoothly. He may or may not be aware of
the fact that I am a beginner... but certainly never makes me feel like one.
And at the conclusion, I thank him very much.

The second scenario is the one in which the leader recognizes the fact, as
we begin to dance (through my missed cues, or the fact that he hasn't seen
me at that milongas before, or a combination), that I'm a beginner and
perceives it as a unique opportunity to test out his leading skills. (i.e.
"hmmm... let's see what she can follow.") If he then leads something which
I am unable to follow, he may say, "when I do "X", I am trying to get you to
do "Y"" and perhaps he'll try it several more times during the course of the
dance to see if I "get it." As long as this doesn't interfere with the
other dancers on the floor, I don't really find it an objectionable form of
teaching, and it is certainly well-intentioned.

The third and very unpleasant scenario is the one where the leader, upon
recognizing the fact that I am a beginner, decides that his only recourse to
remedy this torturous and unfortunate turn of events is to either: a)
manhandle me around the floor, b) continue leading away blithely in his
usual style with no regard for the fact that I am unable to follow what he
is doing at all, or c) instruct me... which I perceive as my punishment, or
at least dues-payment, for daring to enter the milongas, thereby putting him
in the unthinkable situation of having asked a beginner to dance, the
torture of which is impossible for him to endure graciously for three or
four minutes. In this scenario I am apologetic and anxious throughout the
dance, and neither of us can wait for the song to finish so we can exit the
dance floor and be rid of each other.

If this last scenario happened more than about 30% of the time, I'm sure I
would not remain active in the tango community; but it's that first scenario
(plus a genuine love of tango) that keeps me coming back despite the
occasional unpleasant experience. However, it has occurred often enough
that I have taken to answering "would you care to dance?" with the response,
"As long as you don't mind dancing with a beginner." I don't feel entirely
comfortable with this approach (I wonder, would a man ever feel compelled to
announce his level of dance ability to a lady prior to obtaining her consent
for a dance?) but if the gentleman is someone who would consider it
insufferable to have to dance with a beginner, I'd rather let him off the
hook before we start. (So far, no one has said "well then, never mind!" in
response... but it does seem to result in an increased amount of
well-intentioned and gentle instruction being given on the social dance
floor; perhaps because my remark is misconstrued as a request for such
instruction.)

As a tangent from this discussion, I would welcome feedback from other list
members as to what would be the preferred or most appropriate way for a
beginning follower to accept a dance!

Michelle

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:43:08 -0700
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 18:51:41 -0400 Michelle DeBlasi
<shelbells@EMAIL.MSN.COM> writes:

> As a tangent from this discussion, I would welcome feedback from >

other list> members as to what would be the preferred or most appropriate
way > for a> beginning follower to accept a dance!
----------- -------------
----------------
Interesting question? When a woman tells me she is a beginner, she's
usually nervous. I try to put her at ease by whispering into her ear
"Well, we all have to start somewhere."



Partners usually dance a tanda (set of dances of the same type, e,g,
tango, vals, milonga). The first dance they "feel each other out (not
up!)" The man should feel "Can I lead this woman?" The woman should feel
"Can I follow this man." The first dance in the tanda is usually the
basics: walking, crossing, and ochos. The couple is able to find out
quickly if they are compatible and after the first dance, decide if they
want to go for double or nothing. The man should be able to feel what you
can handle and should keep it at that level. There's nothing wrong with a
dance that is solely walking, crossing, and ochos. Consequently, a man
should be able to determine the woman is a beginner without her saying it
and should respect her level. Sometimes, those figures are the ONLY
things you can do on a crowded floor anyway. The woman should feel if
she's being treated courteously or is being used as a practice dummy.

There is a code word you should know Michelle. If at the end of the
dance, you say "thank you," that means "Thank you for the dance. I don't
want to dance again with you (just for now or forever).

A man should respect the woman's skill level, whatever level that is and
not turn it into a contest.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Misses New York more and more

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 00:32:00 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

At the risk of being sent to the censors, I'll quote enough of this message
so that my comments might make some sense.

> The third and very unpleasant scenario is the one where the leader, upon
> recognizing the fact that I am a beginner,

snip

> or c) instruct me... which I perceive as my punishment, or
> at least dues-payment, for daring to enter the milongas, thereby putting

him

> in the unthinkable situation of having asked a beginner to dance, the
> torture of which is impossible for him to endure graciously for three or
> four minutes. In this scenario I am apologetic and anxious throughout the
> dance, and neither of us can wait for the song to finish so we can exit

the

> dance floor and be rid of each other.

Of course, the gentlemanly thing to do is to graciously finish the dance
while trying to dance well within the lady's skill level. Sometimes this is
not too easy because one cannot find out the level until one hits the floor
;-) While it is generally a bad policy to instruct one's partner. Sometimes
the lady herself will ask for verbal help. I generally say something like
"we don't dance together enough so don't worry, we'll leave that step for
later", or some other such comment. There is really not much one can do but
to finish the dance as nicely as possible and save the instruction for the
practicas.

> If this last scenario happened more than about 30% of the time, I'm sure I
> would not remain active in the tango community

snip

> However, it has occurred often enough
> that I have taken to answering "would you care to dance?" with the

response,

> "As long as you don't mind dancing with a beginner." I don't feel

entirely

> comfortable with this approach

Although it is nice to forewarn one's prospective partner, it really does
not help a lot. As you say " (So far, no one has said "well then, never
mind!" in response..." Well, to me it would be very ackward to say "well
then, I guess I rescind my offer, bye". This is the time to buck up and do
the best one can. Sometimes these beginners can be quite delightful dancers,
even if they do not know how to follow all kinds of giros, etc. Anyway, the
offer was made and accepted, it must be honored. The question is why did he
ask aher to dance?

> As a tangent from this discussion, I would welcome feedback from other

list

> members as to what would be the preferred or most appropriate way for a
> beginning follower to accept a dance!

Here the question might be better phrased. Perhaps the question really is:
how do I choose with whom to dance? (who to ask and whether to accept or
not). This is the reason why tango has it's codes and customs. When one goes
to the milongas, one should watch the dancers and have already a good idea
of their level before asking a woman to dance. Likewise, the women could pay
attention and see that the guy who's asking can really dance or whether he
spends his time "instructing" his partners in the dance floor.I might get in
trouble for saying this, but very new or inexperienced dancers do not really
belong in the dance floor at the milongas. That is the purpose of classes
and practicas. First learn to dance enough to get around the floor without a
struggle, then go to the milongas to dance. The milongas a the place for
dancing up to one's level and for enjoying the tango as it should be. The
milongas are not the place to find out that one cannot really dance or worse
yet, to conduct impromptu lessons. No teacher worth his or her salt will
"teach" during a milonga and the only inexperienced dancers that he or she
will dance with are their students. Those who either "teach" during milongas
or get "surprised" by the inexperience of their partner are not behaving
themselves as they should. Understanding and adhering to the rules and codes
of tango is as important, if not more so, than knowing how to dance well.

Cheers,

Manuel

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:41:23 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

--- Michelle DeBlasi <shelbells@EMAIL.MSN.COM> wrote:

> As a tangent from this discussion, I would welcome
> feedback from other list
> members as to what would be the preferred or most
> appropriate way for a
> beginning follower to accept a dance!

Nod in acceptance and accompany me to the floor!
Yayyyyy

Michelle, I so enjoyed your post. Women I correspond
with on this list frequently report that the female
perspective is very under-represented here. Thank you
for giving me something very interesting and engaging
to read.

I have so much to say in response to what you wrote.
Shewt, girl, more than you want to wade through I'm
sure.

One thing. I used to announce to women I was inviting
that I'm a beginner. I'm not a total beginner anymore
and I don't announce it now, but I certainly
sympathize with the motivation to do it.

What really SHOULD happen, in my opinion, is the way
*I* do it! (Not humble of me, but of course I think
I'm right or I'd pick some other way to do it...)

If I'm dancing with someone new, I begin
conservatively and explore. It isn't "academic". I
don't exactly run through some kind of "checklist",
but I don't immediately lead her into grapevines and
start all my lapiz and enrosques (Ha... as if I can
really do those yet). I play to the music in a very
basic fashion. I'm "listening" for qualities like:
does she stay on one foot, does she cross when I lead
it, does she NOT cross when I lead her NOT to do it,
do I feel a connection and does she hold me like she
means it. The answers to these questions tell me what
range of expression I have available to me, and I then
attempt to tell a story that is within my own ability
and hers.

You really shouldn't have to announce anything. I
think I should be figuring those things out in
response to the way you dance with me. A friend of
mine told me that she danced with a guy who led her
into all sorts of things she didn't know. She felt
bad, but he later said that he knew she probably
didn't know that stuff, yet he wanted to practice it
anyway. Who was he dancing with? This, Michelle, is
a jerk. Don't dance with him. Dance with me!

Mark

Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 23:49:40 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

--- Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

> I might get in
> trouble for saying this, but very new or
> inexperienced dancers do not really
> belong in the dance floor at the milongas.

Hi Manuel,

Well, I don't think there's a tango gestapo to haul
you in for a flogging, but nothing can protect you
from my raspberries!

:-P

(Childish of me, I know.)

;-)

Mark

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:32:37 -0400
From: Barbara Kountouzi <vk25@DREXEL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

>===== Original Message From Mark Sussex <
>The
>only solution for self-styled teachers who have been
>dancing a while lies in the hands of the women. If
>they don't like what's happening, they can decline
>the invitations.
>
>I wonder how they feel about turning men down. Is it
>hard to do? Are they reticent to do it because maybe
>there aren't enough men to dance with? Is it simply
>uncomfortable to say no or that you're "resting"?

All of the above. IMO, the reason women are not involved in this discussion is
that attitude and rejection are a matter of time, something like a maturation
process which every person has to go through in order to understand it, and
advice, although sometimes useful, cannot be a substitute for experience. When
a woman goes to a milonga for the first time, she is confronted with a given
situation: most likely she lacks technique, doesn't know too many people (if
any), and most important, does not know the code, the etiquette (that's where
advice can help). Naturally, all these create feelings of insecurity. This,
combined with the axiom that men are always fewer, creates a needy attitude:
"I have to get accepted by this group; I should be grateful for being asked to
dance; I cannot afford to be picky so 'no' is seldom an option; I should by no
means upset a leader in any way or they won't dance with me again". This is an
attitude that pertains to higher levels of dancers as well, as I often see
that even experienced women dancers are afraid of telling a man that his lead
is not working.

Having said that, I think that as the time goes by, every woman develops her
own technique of dealing with such issues in a way suitable to her
personality. Women learn WHEN and HOW to reject invitations, some in a more
abrupt, rude manner, others are more polite, while some others never dare to
reject anyone even when they become better dancers. It's a matter of
character: just as we learn to accept or reject other offers in life, we also
learn to do the same in the dance.


Barbara

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 23:54:05 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

>
> The third and very unpleasant scenario is the one where the leader, upon
> recognizing the fact that I am a beginner, decides that his only recourse

to

> remedy this torturous and unfortunate turn of events is to ...c) instruct

me... which I perceive as my punishment, or

> at least dues-payment, for daring to enter the milongas, thereby putting

him

> in the unthinkable situation of having asked a beginner to dance, the
> torture of which is impossible for him to endure graciously for three or
> four minutes. In this scenario I am apologetic and anxious throughout the
> dance

Michelle,
I would not feel bad for being a beginner. When I was one, the only person
who ever stopped dancing with me in the middle of a song after trying to
lead me into giros, ganchos and whatnot , saying: "She does not have a clue
!"and leaving me standing on the dancefloor was somebody who is now a much
worse dancer than me. At that time I had had three months of classes and
private lessons. Every time I meet him at a workshop now, and he ends up
with me, he has difficulties with the steps, and I usually relish pointing
out his mistakes and explaining to him how to do it correctly, which he
usually then still cannot do
Everybody else who sometimes asked me to dance when I was a beginner and did
an extraordinary amount of instructing and complaining, now usually won't
dance with me, because they prefer to look for new "victims" among the
freshly arrived beginners.

There is one more thing I would like to point out to these self-appointed
instructors. Since we all seem to agree on the distastefulness of this
habit, I may already be beating a dead horse, but on the other hand, maybe
the ones we have been talking about are all out there following this
discussion in silence ?
Teachers are chosen by the students. Every tango student will, more or less
carefully, choose a teacher whose style agrees with her, whose personality
(or looks) she likes, and who has enough credentials or at least appears
sufficiently qualified to teaching tango. In case of uninvited instruction
on the dance floor, the "teacher" chooses the "student" and pushes his
instruction on the student without asking whether this person even cares for
learning from him. Next time, before you start talking to her, please take
this into consideration.

P.S. After watching a man in his class teach and argue with his partner
repeatedly , to the point that the lady got angry at him, a teacher of mine
told the students: "A really good tangodancer can lead a woman without
having to say a word..."

Astrid

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:32:06 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

At the risk of taking Manuel's comments out of context, I have disassembled
a rather long paragraph of his that seems to contain multiple ideas. I
hope I have not distorted his intent.

Manuel wrote:

>I might get in trouble for saying this, but very new or inexperienced
>dancers do not really belong in the dance floor at the milongas. That
>is the purpose of classes and practicas. First learn to dance enough
>to get around the floor without a struggle, then go to the milongas to
>dance. The milonga is the place for dancing up to one's level and for
>enjoying the tango as it should be.

I cannot completely agree. Community standards vary. In relatively small
tango communities beginners may be very welcome.

Furthermore, the guidance to individuals for finding the appropriate skill
level to attend a milonga seems relatively vague--as it must be when
offered around the world from Atlanta. Sometimes people are too hesitant
to dance socially. On the other hand what may not seem like a struggle at
a relatively uncrowded practice can turn into a nightmare when someone puts
on a milonga and you do not even know what a milonga is. I think
instructors can be helpful in letting their students know when their
dancing is acceptable for social dancing in their own community.

>The milongas are not the place to find out that one cannot really dance
>or worse yet, to conduct impromptu lessons. No teacher worth his or her
>salt will >"teach" during a milonga and the only inexperienced dancers
>that he or she will dance with are their students.

I am in absolute agreement. Milongas are not the place for instruction.
In some areas of the United States, many milongas offer instruction prior
to the milonga. I wonder if that has contributed to the practice of more
experienced dancers teaching relative newcomers during the milonga.

>Those who either "teach" during milongas or get "surprised" by the
>inexperience of their partner are not behaving themselves as they
>should. Understanding and adhering to the rules and codes of tango
>is as important, if not more so, than knowing how to dance well.

Sometimes learning the social codes takes as much time as learning to
dance.

With best regards,
Steve






Manuel Patino
<white95r@HOTM To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
AIL.COM> cc:
Sent by: Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)
Announcements
of Argentine
Tango Events
<TANGO-L@MITVM
A.MIT.EDU>


07/24/01 11:32
PM
Please respond
to Manuel
Patino






At the risk of being sent to the censors, I'll quote enough of this message
so that my comments might make some sense.

> The third and very unpleasant scenario is the one where the leader, upon
> recognizing the fact that I am a beginner,

snip

> or c) instruct me... which I perceive as my punishment, or
> at least dues-payment, for daring to enter the milongas, thereby putting

him

> in the unthinkable situation of having asked a beginner to dance, the
> torture of which is impossible for him to endure graciously for three or
> four minutes. In this scenario I am apologetic and anxious throughout

the

> dance, and neither of us can wait for the song to finish so we can exit

the

> dance floor and be rid of each other.

Of course, the gentlemanly thing to do is to graciously finish the dance
while trying to dance well within the lady's skill level. Sometimes this is
not too easy because one cannot find out the level until one hits the floor
;-) While it is generally a bad policy to instruct one's partner. Sometimes
the lady herself will ask for verbal help. I generally say something like
"we don't dance together enough so don't worry, we'll leave that step for
later", or some other such comment. There is really not much one can do but
to finish the dance as nicely as possible and save the instruction for the
practicas.

> If this last scenario happened more than about 30% of the time, I'm sure

I

> would not remain active in the tango community

snip

> However, it has occurred often enough
> that I have taken to answering "would you care to dance?" with the

response,

> "As long as you don't mind dancing with a beginner." I don't feel

entirely

> comfortable with this approach

Although it is nice to forewarn one's prospective partner, it really does
not help a lot. As you say " (So far, no one has said "well then, never
mind!" in response..." Well, to me it would be very ackward to say "well
then, I guess I rescind my offer, bye". This is the time to buck up and do
the best one can. Sometimes these beginners can be quite delightful
dancers,
even if they do not know how to follow all kinds of giros, etc. Anyway, the
offer was made and accepted, it must be honored. The question is why did he
ask aher to dance?

> As a tangent from this discussion, I would welcome feedback from other

list

> members as to what would be the preferred or most appropriate way for a
> beginning follower to accept a dance!

Here the question might be better phrased. Perhaps the question really is:
how do I choose with whom to dance? (who to ask and whether to accept or
not). This is the reason why tango has it's codes and customs. When one
goes
to the milongas, one should watch the dancers and have already a good idea
of their level before asking a woman to dance. Likewise, the women could
pay
attention and see that the guy who's asking can really dance or whether he
spends his time "instructing" his partners in the dance floor.I might get
in
trouble for saying this, but very new or inexperienced dancers do not
really
belong in the dance floor at the milongas. That is the purpose of classes
and practicas. First learn to dance enough to get around the floor without
a
struggle, then go to the milongas to dance. The milongas a the place for
dancing up to one's level and for enjoying the tango as it should be. The
milongas are not the place to find out that one cannot really dance or
worse
yet, to conduct impromptu lessons. No teacher worth his or her salt will
"teach" during a milonga and the only inexperienced dancers that he or she
will dance with are their students. Those who either "teach" during
milongas
or get "surprised" by the inexperience of their partner are not behaving
themselves as they should. Understanding and adhering to the rules and
codes
of tango is as important, if not more so, than knowing how to dance well.

Cheers,

Manuel

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:04:51 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

Steve wrote:

> At the risk of taking Manuel's comments out of context, I have

disassembled

> a rather long paragraph of his that seems to contain multiple ideas. I
> hope I have not distorted his intent.

Thanks Steve, you have not distorted my intent. I appreciate your comments
and opinions. My opinion about the very novice dancers not belonging in the
milonga dance floor is based on the model of the milongas in BAires as well
as in larger cities in the US such as NYC, SF or the ones I went to in
Europe.

Obviously, in much smaller communities, the standards vary greatly as do the
actual dancing (?) conditions. My comments do not apply to such places,
however, it is wise to bear in mind that these "milongas" are not
representative of the milongas of larger places. I guess one could say that
the "real" milongas (I really hesitate using that label) are nothing like
the small, almost private dance parties where it is much easier for even the
most inexperienced dancer take to the floor with a more experienced partner
and enjoy the dance.

The milongas that I mean are those in which are many dancers. Sometimes
there are many dancers that one does not know. It is imperative to observe
the codes and customs in order to enjoy those milongas. For me, those
milongas are the best and most enjoyable. That is where I get to dance with
more, experienced dancers. I watch and see who is dancing and how they
dance, that way I'm not surprised by a rank beginner. I also must admit that
when I go to those milongas, I'm really more interested in dancing as well
as I can rather than to limit my dancing to match a newcomer's level. I am
quite happy to dance with beginners and newcomers at the proper place. That
way I can have the best of both worlds.

Cheers

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:57:38 EDT
From: Shirley Kwan <SKisaichi@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: attitude rant (and rejection)

In all honesty, I think there's never any reason to be apologetic, except as a pro former conversational softener ("I'm sorry!" "No, it was my fault!") Two consenting adults, a consensual reality, and so....what goes, goes. Why waste time and divert focus from a reality being created right then and there? Once upon a time, I used to apologize for this or that. Then I decided, "Well, he has eyes; if he's done his homework, he's seen me dance someplace, somewhere. If he's asking me to dance, well, then, the rest is his decision and responsibility!" Besides, how can anyone possibly dissect the minutiae of why communication went uncommunicated for a split-second? That moment, when realized, is gone; it's ancient history already. That lifts a lot of responsibility off him as well. A willing attitude counts for A LOT, and there is a lot of pleasure in seeing the freshness of beginners and their unfolding appreciation for all things tango, as Sarah LaRocca so eloquently notes.
Yeah, even though I dance in a big city, I figure, those who know me know me, and those who want to dance with me want to dance w/ ME, not my steps. They have to factor in: good days, bad days, the frazzle factor, etc. I accept the same in my partners: they can't be the same each time, and I sure don't want them to be! I usually tell novices who ask me that I don't give mercy dances, so they can be sure I've consented out of volition and selfish pleasure; and that I want to dance with that person, not with their steps. And truly, in those moments, the steps don't matter. Attitude does. Respectfulness does. Majorly.
And if I feel like giving pointers--subtle, verbal, whatever--on the dance floor, that's my perogative. I 'll do what I please, and that's my privilege. Otherwise, either of us can just say "thank you" and that's that. Nothing lost but 3 minutes or less. Nowadays I prefer to think that I'm giving my partner the immense privilege of learning what I like,with better communication as the greater goal.

I fully realize this goes against all kinds of supposed etiquette. But it's where I'm at right now, and it makes me happy, and if it's incorrect, oh well.

tangoing to be happy, more so than vice versa

shirley kwan, nyc

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:35:04 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: attitude rant (and rejection)

Shirley Kwan wrote:

>And if I feel like giving pointers--subtle, verbal,
>whatever--on the dance floor, that's my perogative.
>I 'll do what I please, and that's my privilege.

How does one earn the privilege to give pointers when dancing at a milonga?
Amazingly, many leaders who offer pointers to followers do not have a full
command of follower's technique, and many followers who offer pointers to
leaders do not have a full command of leader's technique.

--Steve de Tejas

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:56:57 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

I just realized that I did not express myself clearly. My apologies to the
gentle readers ;-) I am not suggesting for a single moment that anyone stay
off the dance floor at any milonga. I'm happy to share the floor with any
and all dancers (possibly excepting those who injure me ;-)). I only meant
to say that in choosing who to dance with, it is a very good idea to watch
and see how people dance. My admonition for very new dancers to not dance at
the big milongas is only to spare them frustration and embarrassment.

There is no magic number of lessons or time that one must complete before
dancing at a milonga. Nobody has the right to deny the floor to anyone else.
There is no "governing body" that approves who may or may not dance. I'm all
for newcomers attending parties and milongas and certainly dancing. There
are many excellent opportunities for all levels of dancers to enjoy the
tango, I just think that the big milongas are not the best place for
everyone to practice their first or second lesson at.

I give dance parties at my house regularly and I certainly encourage
everyone who is interested to attend. I like to see people dancing (or
trying to dance). I like to see a brand new person trying a tango step for
the first time (who knows, they might become fabulous tango dancers for me
to enjoy;-)). I want everyone to feel welcome in the tango scene. House
parties and other small, less informal dance opportunities are ideal places
for new and experienced people to dance.

The problems occur when the brand new or very inexperienced dancer goes to a
place like El Nino Bien for instance. That is where one first runs into the
*codes* of tango. It is not likely that the new person will get asked to
dance or have their advances accepted. One must first prove to the watchers
that one can dance before you can dance! I know, it is a catch 22, but that
is the way it is. The women particularly need to be careful and not get
pulled onto the floor by some guy who targets beginners. They will only make
you look bad and damage your chances to dance with the better dancers. The
guys have also huge hurdles to overcome. They must look like they can dance
before the better women dancers will meet their eyes to get a chance to
dance! If you manage to get someone up to the floor and she cannot dance,
you have just received the kiss of death! You'll be lucky to get another
dance for a long time!

IMHO, it is better to wait until the dancer can get around the floor without
problems before dancing at the big milongas. It is not necessary to know
lots of steps or to do fancy firuletes. On the contrary, simple, elegant and
musical movements are all that is needed. I speak as an stranger in a new
(for me) place. If you are in your home turf and you know everyone, by all
means go in there and dance away. Do not let anyone intimidate you or keep
you from dancing. All situations are different and there are no hard and
fast rules. My opinions and advise are only generalizations. I hope they are
taken as such.

Cheers,

Manuel

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:15:51 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

--- Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

> I am not suggesting for a single
> moment that anyone stay
> off the dance floor at any milonga. I'm happy to
> share the floor with any
> and all dancers (possibly excepting those who injure
> me ;-)).

Hey list,

I think my posts in response to Manuel's might have
been inferring something he wasn't even driving at.
This last post makes it clear I would be fortunate to
meet him and attend one of his milongas.

Can you tell that this subject was one which made me
feel very defensive at one time not so very long
ago?...

I met a lot of very encouraging people when I was
first starting out. It meant so much to me that I'm a
self-styled advocate for the next class of beginners.
I really don't want them to be discouraged early on
and give up something they might otherwise enjoy.

I also naturally hope that I'll get some new fun and
beautiful partners! That's the message I really want
to convey to beginners, that people want you. I sure
didn't think that when I arrived. I thought the only
benefit a woman derived from dancing with me was a
sense of "community service"!

Mark

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 17:14:58 -0400
From: Michelle DeBlasi <shelbells@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

Referencing Manuel:
"Perhaps the question really is: how do I choose with whom to dance? (who to
ask and whether to accept or not)... When one goes to the milongas, one
should watch the dancers and have already a good idea of their level before
asking a woman to dance. Likewise, the women could pay attention and see
that the guy who's asking can really dance or whether he spends his time
"instructing" his partners in the dance floor. I might get in trouble for
saying this, but very new or inexperienced dancers do not really belong in
the dance floor at the milongas."


The suggestion of observing the dance floor and subsequently accepting
dances only from those whose style appeals to you - from the perspective of
either a leader or follower, beginner or advanced - sounds ideal, but my
head spins on thinking about how to put it into practical practice right
away. As a newcomer to several crowded milongas, and knowing very few
people there, there are only so many places I can look at once, and so many
faces I can remember... I'm sure this will change as time goes on and I
become more familiar with the communities, but right now the likelihood of
my having had the opportunity to observe someone dance prior to receiving
their invitation to the dance floor is far from guaranteed. Should I then
decline because I have not yet had the opportunity to personally observe
them (or because I'm aware that they have not had the opportunity to
personally observe me)? And if I have in fact observed them (and not noted
any behavior which might be a "warning"), how safely can I conclude that my
experience will be the same? Perhaps they were just dancing with their
regular partner, who is used to their way of cuing or knows what patterns to
typically expect, or with a more advanced partner, who has more skill at
picking up on a subtler lead (or compensating for a lack of one) and
therefore didn't "need" instruction... The reverse is also true; I can
think of at least one occasion when a partner became annoyed with me for
being unable to execute a certain step; when I apologized that I didn't know
the step, he responded "but I just SAW you do that step with (your previous
partner)." I don't think I need to tell you the moral of that story.

Finally, referencing numerous remarks concerning whether a beginner
"belongs" at a milonga, begs the question for me... what defines one's level
of dancing? Is it the variety of steps or embellishments you can execute,
your ability to lead or follow, the quality of your musicality, the number
of months you have been taking lessons? Even when taking lessons and
workshops I have found the labels "Beginner" or "Basic," "pre-intermediate,"
and "intermediate" to be nearly arbitrary (though perhaps we can all agree
on advanced!), and that standards or requirements for each vary greatly from
studio to studio and instructor to instructor. I reference myself as a
beginner but that doesn't mean I have had only three tango lessons. :) I
have certainly learned enough to be able to "get around the floor without a
struggle"... the majority of the time, with a variety of partners; but with
some partners there is most definitely a struggle. I hope that proper tango
etiquette doesn't therefore demand that I stay home until I have become such
an adept follower that I can dance with any leader equally well!

Michelle

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 17:06:39 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

>At the risk of taking Manuel's comments out of context, I have disassembled
>a rather long paragraph of his that seems to contain multiple ideas. I
>hope I have not distorted his intent.
>
>Manuel wrote:
>
>>I might get in trouble for saying this, but very new or inexperienced
>>dancers do not really belong in the dance floor at the milongas. That
>>is the purpose of classes and practicas. First learn to dance enough
>>to get around the floor without a struggle, then go to the milongas to
>>dance. The milonga is the place for dancing up to one's level and for
>>enjoying the tango as it should be.
>
>I cannot completely agree. Community standards vary. In relatively small
>tango communities beginners may be very welcome.

Teaching capabilities vary also.

A good teacher can have students dancing a simpler, rhythmic tango in
2 - 3 months. Nobody will confuse them with Miguel Zotto, but really,
Social Tango is about holding a woman with care, feeling the music,
walking with connection, and watching where you are going.

One of the hardest psychological transitions is from "Beginner in
Class" to "Intermediate at a Milonga", especially as the local
dancing gets better. The first time at a dance can be truly daunting
for a newcomer, especially a guy. You can usually get 90% of the
class to finish the series, but I have seen few teachers with a
retention rate as good as 20-30% following the first 8 - 12 week
class.

(Imagine how big your community would be if retention was even 10% higher!)

It is essential to get floor-time; you will NOT learn social tango
without engaging socially; Learning to navigate requires the
improvisational skills you gain by reacting to changing floor
conditions.

If the milongas are scary, what's a newcomer to do?

Practices are specifically designed gain skill without the more
difficult navigational and social conditions of a milonga. Advanced
dancers need to help out here, even if they do so "only" out of
enlightened self-interest, because these newcomers are going to be
your partners a year ago...and you don't want this task falling to
the intermediate guys!

Although I understand the tango-marketing angle, I'm not a fan of
beginner classes before the milonga. That is guaranteed to cause
dissatisfaction on the part of both the newcomers and the advanced.
Perhaps the only good thing, is that the Advanced dancers learn that
the floor is a disaster for the first hour, so they show up later,
when the beginners have cleared out.

On the other hand, having an Intermediate class before a milonga is a
great opportunity to teach floor-craft and social codes.

I have one very useful tip for people going from your first 12-week
"Beginner in Class" to "Intermediate at the milongas": Your first
defense is your fellow class mates, whom I like to call your "litter
mates". They're the ones to give you guaranteed partners when
everyone else is already partnered.

Teachers can be proactive in making sure that this happens.

I have noticed that a class of 6 - 8 students barely functions
socially, while if you have 20 - 30 people you can't stop them from
creating the energy that will sustain them.
--

-----
"To my way of thinking the tango is, above all, rhythm,
nerve, force, character...I tried to restore to the tango
its masculine quality." -- Juan D'Arienzo (1949)
-----

Tom Stermitz
- Stermitz@Ragtime.org
- 303-725-5963
- https://www.tango.org/dance/EternaTeaching.html

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:24:44 -0500
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Attitude rant (and rejections)

To Stephen and Mark,

OK, I have to jump in. I am a new member to this newsgroup. New to A.
Tango since March this year, the latter qualifies me to respond to the
issue at hand from this thread, as I have seen both sides of the coin most
recently.

I had been the recipient of being taught without me asking, and in worst
case, at the dance floor in Milonga. I also am the one, during my early
days grin) to ask to be taught on the side of the floor. Most of the time
the requests were rejected-- some good professional dancers properly advised
me the differences between Milonga vs. Practica; while others, just talked
it >out right on the floor!

It is hard not to request the good leader-dancers to show me the tibits,
because chances are they do not attend Praticas and Classes; seeing them
in Milonga is the only opportunity.

What bugs me is that, now that I have more sure footings, while
experienced ones would invite me to dance socially (presumably enjoy dancing
would me), they appear to wanting to test my limits. They are not my
teachers, BTW.

One time, one gentleman tried a step -- which to me is a mediocre lead,
and I did not follow well. Immediately he uttered "ha-hah!". I whispered
him to show me, which he obliged, by repeating doing the same step a few
times quietly. I managed it the second time, was grateful that he did not
talk it out. I am willing to take the insult because I learned three
things: the step itself, the etiquette, and to stay away from him if I am in
bad mood.

I also begin to have my share of declining invitations, despite the male
population is less here (in Chicago). My reason of rejection is mainly
because I notice the leader has no intention to improve, OR, if the
invitation is rudely executed.

Some smart business men cum tango teachers appear to **attend** to their
own herd by dancing with them when they all hang out in the Milonga. But
the rudeness I found was that some of them would recruit other dancers to
practice with their students, without regarding the willingness of the
invitees. I was literally pulled off from a tall stool-- by my wrist-- to
the command "here, dance with him!"

It is not polite to do so in a Milonga to begin with, let alone observing
this from a teacher.

I don't know if the Bs As style eye- contact is well practiced in your
areas. Here, some people use their eyes plus their body to send their
requests, as if they are the pitchers at the baseball games (minus
scratching their body parts, thanks God). While finding it amusing, I
accept them knowing that they have good intent. Last week when I was out in
NYC central park, it was the first time I *eyed* with a Floridian who did it
properly. Well done, gator!

Bibi (Chicago)

> >From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
> >Reply-To: Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG
> >To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> >Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)
> >Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:53:52 -0500
> >
> >Mark wrote:
> >
> > >I have a friend who says that no one is so eager to
> > >give her a lesson on the social dance floor as a
> > >beginning dancer... who now thinks he's an
> > >intermediate one.
> >
> > >Maybe it isn't as much a problem (not as frequent or
> > >disturbing) as I've been assuming? I was surprised
> > >that I didn't hear more outrage from women after my
> > >initial post. I see this happening on the dance floor
> > >a lot. Maybe it doesn't tend to bother them as much
> > >as it would bother me.
> >
> >I wonder if women are not responding to this discussion because the

women

> >who participate in this forum are not the beginners who are the target

of

> >such teachers. I have noticed that frequently women who are the target
>of
> >such teaching tend to be the younger, better looking ones while the
> >self-proclaimed teachers are older and less attractive. Guess how long
>the
> >woman remains active in the tango community.
> >
> >--Steve de Tejas

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 15:00:42 -0700
From: Lisa Dollar <ldollar@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: attitude rant (and rejection)

I've been following this thread with great interest and learning a lot. A
few thoughts:

"Beginners" is too wide a label. After dancing just a year, for me three
minutes on a dancefloor with very tentative new leaders can be downright
painful, just OK w/leaders who may even consider themselves great dancers
but who lead w/their arms rather than their chests (thereby throwing me off
balance), heavenly w/sensitive leaders who dance from the heart & who
joyfully keep dancing rather than make an issue of any missed cue (I had my
one & only tangasm so far w/a leader who says he's "only been dancing six
years" but who'll remain as unforgettable as my first love). Two other
notable experiences: In the arms of Jorge Torres who happened to be teachng
a workshop w/Guillermina Quiroga in SF, I was astounded to be flowing in zen
state doing steps I'd never been taught. !!How did I do that!?! The second
was with a local leader, a transplanted Argentine who dances beautifully
but who, after a dance in which I felt my heart beating in my throat,
proceeded to tell me everything that I did wrong --.and who never asked me
again, for which I can only say thank you. I'm in this for pleasure.

So as to "beginners" perhaps "rank beginner" is more descriptive of that
stage where we ourselves usually know better than to venture out onto a
milonga dancefloor. An exception here: In my most early days I actually
followed w/more ease and had much more fun than at a later stage when I'd
had a few lessons, climbed into my head & gotten tense.

Now, having recently returned from Nora's Tango Week where I stayed away
from classes teaching patterns & stuck to technique, I'm now profoundly
aware that my major goal at this basic point in my development is to
perfect my own balance & maintain my own axis w/o so much dependence on the
leader. When I can do that, I'll enjoy even dances w/ new tentative
leaders. As Mark sez: Yayyy!

Lastly as to Shirley Kwan's post:

>>I figure, those who know me know me, and those who want to dance with me

want to dance w/ ME, not my steps. They have to factor in: good days, bad
days, the frazzle factor, etc. I accept the same in my partners: they can't
be the same each time, and I sure don't want them to be! ..... I've
consented out of volition and selfish pleasure; and ... I want to dance
with that person, not with their steps. And truly, in those moments, the
steps don't matter. Attitude does. Respectfulness does. Majorly.<<

You said that for me too. Thanks.

>> And if I feel like giving pointers--subtle, verbal, whatever--on the

dance floor, that's my perogative. <<

For anyone who was immediately tsk-tsking, keep in mind that giving
"pointers" can be as self-revealing as "I'll be happy to follow whatever you
lead but I need time to finish the steps you lead". Whether it's sharing a
meal or making love, we have to ask for what we need. That's our part of
the equation.

Lisa in SF

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:19:30 -0700
From: JC Dill <tango@VO.CNCHOST.COM>
Subject: Re: attitude rant (and rejection)

On 10:35 AM 7/25/01, Stephen Brown wrote:
>Shirley Kwan wrote:
>
>>And if I feel like giving pointers--subtle, verbal,
>>whatever--on the dance floor, that's my perogative.
>>I 'll do what I please, and that's my privilege.
>
>How does one earn the privilege to give pointers when dancing at a milonga?
>Amazingly, many leaders who offer pointers to followers do not have a full
>command of follower's technique, and many followers who offer pointers to
>leaders do not have a full command of leader's technique.

Is it necessary for a follower to have a full command of a leader's
technique to know that it's uncomfortable to have one's hand squeezed
hard? Is the follower just supposed to tolerate such abuse, rather than
speak up and say something? What about if it's something subtler, like a
leader who has just "learned" a move, but left out an important lead - and
because he doesn't give that lead the follower ends up wrenched - all
because the leader assumes the follower will do the move as all the
followers in class (who were busy being dance dummies and not actually
following, but rather doing the pattern as they were "instructed" to do
rather than as they were "led" to do)?

IMHO, if I get hurt I have a right to give "pointers", no matter how much
or little I know about the leader's technique. I know enough to know I'm
not supposed to get hurt, and if I get hurt something is wrong and it isn't
going to get fixed until I (or some other follower) speak up.

jc

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:58:56 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: attitude rant (and rejection)

JC brings up a valid point:

>Is it necessary for a follower to have a full command
>of a leader's technique to know that it's uncomfortable
>to have one's hand squeezed hard? ... What about if it's
>something subtler, like a leader who has just "learned"
>a move, but left out an important lead... and ... the
>follower ends up wrenched

But many people go much farther in giving advice during a milonga... Some
people pull their partner aside and give impromptu instruction. Some give
a constant commentary of advice.

Where do we draw the line? Should I say something if my partner is pulling
down on my right shoulder and hurting it? Should I say something if she is
not properly staying in a circle around me when we are doing a giro or
molinete and she is pushing and pulling me off balance and hurting my back?

--Steve (de Tejas)

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:59:40 -0700
From: Sergio <sergio@NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Attitude rant (and rejection)

"Where do we draw the line? Should I say something if my partner is pulling
down on my right shoulder and hurting it? Should I say something if she is
not properly staying in a circle around me when we are doing a giro or
molinete and she is pushing and pulling me off balance and hurting my back?"
--Steve (de Tejas)

I try not to say anything at a milonga, I will certainly correct it at a
practica.
If it hurts as described then one has to say - please do not pull me down-
hold me up-.
When it comes to turns I say nothing but I do not lead another one if I
know she does not know how to do them.
Some are able to turn properly to the right but not to the left. Many
followers have a terrible time crossing back during the turn. They do not
pivot enough, do accelerated short steps that are a big problem, so it is
better to have a good walked tango in peace, period. It is the leaders
obligation to adjust his dancing to the follower, compensate for mistakes
when possible.
Compensation of mistakes by both the leader and the follower should be
regularly taught and practiced.
This is to say- what do you do- faced with such particular problem, the
follower throws you out of balance for instance or the follower is standing
on her right leg and the leader wants her to step to her right, etc.
Chau!

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:40:16 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: attitude rant (and rejection)

--- Lisa Dollar <ldollar@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

> keep in
> mind that giving
> "pointers" can be as self-revealing as "I'll be
> happy to follow whatever you
> lead but I need time to finish the steps you lead".
> Whether it's sharing a
> meal or making love, we have to ask for what we
> need. That's our part of
> the equation.

That seems like another reasonable take on this whole
question. In life, I find it a lot easier to conceal
my needs and simply be passively aggressive!

(This is a joke, okay?)...

I've been harping on this thread for a while now. I'm
not prepared to retract what I've been saying, but I
had an interesting experience last night.

I got spanked like a puppy! I invited someone whom I
know to be a beautiful dancer. She was harsh.
However, everything she said was exactly right, and it
noticeably improved the dancing immediately. At least
I thought so, so I asked her if I was making the
changes she asked for. She replied, "you already know
you are because I stopped complaining."

This kind of frankness stings even if it did have a
positive affirmation in it. However, I'm not going to
be satisfied with being a sucky, adult, beginning
amateur. I can't stand not knowing what I can do
better.

I don't know when I'll have the nerve to invite her
again. It's been months since the last time I did it
because she was even less pleasant the last time. But
her dancing is awesome, and I'm serious so I want to
find out what's going on.

The hardest dances are the ones at the ends of the
night at schools. I know those dancers aren't there
to dance with me. If they accept my invitation,
they're performing "charity work" and they're looking
over my shoulder to time the availability of the man
they're waiting for. It's humiliating. If I suck it
up and take it, though, I learn something. I don't
praise nor enjoy their behavior, but they've got the
goods.

Mark

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:09:41 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: attitude rant (and rejection)

Despite my sympathy with JC Dill's comments, I am not convinced that most
dancers who offer comments to their partners during a milonga are
sufficiently capable of providing enough information to make the necessary
correction. During a practica, the couple can stop and analyze why things
went awry. The answer often turns out to be something other than the
initial comment.

For example, one common problem among beginning followers is having their
weight between their feet rather than on one foot or another.
Consequently, they tend to push off the leader to move or anticipate the
next step rather than following. The leader's comments will typically be,
"You are pushing on me, " "You are leading," or "Just relax and wait."
None of these comments provides much help to the follower.

Another common problem in beginning followers is not rotating properly
during turns--usually under rotation on the back step, and the use of quick
to compensate. Consequently, they knock themselves and their partners off
balance. No amount of verbal correction (abuse?) will help the follower
until she develops proper technique for turns.

One can just as easily draw up a list of common problems in leaders. One
common problem among beginning leaders is leading in one direction with
their arms while leading in another with their body. Another common
problem is not remaining sufficiently still between steps. A follower may
be able to comment on the former, but offering advice on the latter is much
more difficult because remaining still between steps requires that the
leader shift his weight properly during each step. Few followers are
likely to know where the leader's weight is supposed to be at each moment.
The comment will typically be, "You led me," which is nearly useless.

If the two dancers are not equals, the dancer with less experience may feel
the other has become overbearing. If the dancers are equals, the comments
can easily degenerate into a fight. Neither lends itself to a pleasant
experience at a milonga.

With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)

Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:45:57 +0200
From: andy Ungureanu <Andy.Ungureanu@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: attitude rant (and rejection)

Mark Sussex wrote:

> The hardest dances are the ones at the ends of the
> night at schools. I know those dancers aren't there
> to dance with me. If they accept my invitation,
> they're performing "charity work" and they're looking
> over my shoulder to time the availability of the man
> they're waiting for. It's humiliating. If I suck it
> up and take it, though, I learn something. I don't
> praise nor enjoy their behavior, but they've got the
> goods.

They are not only performing "charity work", they are investing in their
own future pleasure. One day you will be the one other women are waiting
for. How far this day is, it depends on you. The harder you try, the
longer you wait (Michael wrote something similar).
Just try to have fun, and make your partner feel good. Dont try to dance
the figures explained in this list, unless you learned them before.
These are academic discussions between those who allready know.
Andy

Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:44:36 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: attitude rant (and rejection)

----- Original Message -----

Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:21:44 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: attitude rant (and rejection)

--- Melinda Bates <tangerauna@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

> If her balance is bad, are there not
> simple moves the man can use
> to finish the dance, then say "thank you" and walk
> away?

Absolutely, Melinda. You are right. I think this is
how leaders SHOULD approach it. This thread has
gotten a few dance-floor teachers to reveal their
colors. I don't think this thread is too overworked
to refer "helpful" people to my original rant.

I danced with a woman a couple of weeks ago who was
practically trembling in fear. I'm not kidding. When
I invited her, she told me I didn't "have to" dance
with her. That's kind of sad, isn't it? I led a
slow, easy dance and she was wide-eyed. She was
amazed that she could dance! She said her date for
the evening (who I know "prides" himself on being able
to teach any woman any step) had been criticizing
everything she was doing the whole night. I told her
that, if she couldn't remember my name, she certainly
could remember that I'm the guy who SHUTS UP. I can't
figure out the guy she's seeing (or why she sees him).
Does he expect her to be grateful?

> None of this requires verbal correction, it just
> requires leading. This is
> very different from the ladies'experience. We
> really are at your mercy. If
> you are rough, or oblivious to the dangers to us on
> the dance floor, we
> can't lead you out of it - we have to speak up.

This is an interesting distinction. I'll remember
that the next time a woman speaks up. I've never felt
defensive about corrections directed towards safety,
like a lead that makes my partner feel as if she'll
trip for example. On the other hand, some of what
I've experienced (like what I related a little earlier
in this thread) I think is absolutely inappropriate
and it's proper to conclude that it isn't meant for
those partners and I to dance together.

There must be an area in between that is reasonable,
and the distinction you make between the roles is
worth considering.

> To my amazement and embarassment, he
> suddenly stopped, in the
> middle of the song, and walked off the floor. I was
> humiliated. I never
> forgot, and I NEVER accept his invitations to dance.
> I see the puzzlement
> on his face when I refuse. Apparently he forgot
> long ago. Not me.

Man, do I ever NOT blame you! That is the worst thing
you can do to someone.

> Let's try to remember that one dance is only 3-4
> minutes. Unless one is
> really in pain, is it really out of the question to
> grin and bear it,
> knowing in your heart you will never dance with that
> person again?

This story involves a non-tango dance, but I want to
say something about finishing out awkward dances and
treating people with consideration. It's "social"
dancing, after all. I once danced a mambo with
someone after I took a few mambo lessons. I don't
really do the dance, but I'm a professional musician
and I really know where the beat is. One of my pet
peeves in latin dances is people often don't
understand the complex rhythms they're hearing and
can't figure out the meter. They break on the wrong
beat. My partner wouldn't accept my lead. She
started counting to show me where '1' was. The
problem was, she was wrong and she wouldn't accept my
lead on it.

I've CONDUCTED mambo numbers in show orchestras. I
look awful doing salsa, but I do know where '1' is!
Well, you can also dance apart in mambo, so I smiled
and let her do her thing while I did my thing. When
it was over, I thanked her and said, "wow, you really
dance mambo a lot better than I do!"

What did that cost me?

Not a thing. In fact, I just ran into her the other
day and she wants to start up tango classes and she
hopes I'll dance with her.

Mark

Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:22:23 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: attitude rant (and rejection)

Julie Taylor suggested that I forward the following to the list:

Steve -- and list! etiquette in Buenos Aires is you say nothing, but
never dance with that person again. He or she will learn in his or
her classes. If the person is also a show-off, or came to your table
and made it so awkward that it was impossible to say no, then you can
leave him on the floor if he is a bad dancer. Otherwise it is your
fault for accepting/inviting the bad dancer. One veteran milonguera
told me she just leans on partners who can't dance, and they never
come back. But it is also understandable to tell your partner that
you came to the milonga to dance, and that it is not a class. You
can even go so far as to suggest that you will leave the floor if he
doesn't stop "instructing." And THEN if he keeps it up you DO leave.
No decent dancer will try to teach on the dancefloor. At the outside,
excusing him/herself politely, they might offer one tactful comment,
but even that is extremely unusual.
Julie Taylor

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:30:04 -0700
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

Hey everybody,

I am really happy to see how this discussion is going because our
manners at milongas are probably the most important factor effecting the
growth of our dance communities. I would like to add my comments to
some things that have been said over the last few days in this thread.

First of all since we all seem to agree that teaching on the dance floor
at a milonga is a bad thing, we all need to do something in our
communities to reduce it to a minimum. As someone said earlier, this is
often done by fairly inexperienced leaders, who have been dancing for
awhile, and who need to feel like they know something. These people
usually dance only with beginners, and they teach a steady stream on the
floor from the beginning of the milonga until they leave. I don't think
they mean to really hurt anybody, I think that they are happy to have
the feeling that they know something, and they are still very excited
about tango and want to share the fun. Thay are also probably still
feeling insecure in their knowledge and dancing with beginners gives
them the illusion of knowledge. That said though the constant teaching
does drive beginners away.

I have seen this in our community over the years. I have been involved
in running a practica or hosting a milonga for more than 4 years and I
can say with confidence that when there are as few as 2 or 3 leaders
doing this very few beginners stick around. This is the primary effect,
but also the ones doing all the teaching seem to stop learning. Since
these people have such a negative effect on the growth of your community
they need to be persuaded to stop teaching and just dance. They will
begin to learn again and become better dancers, and you will be able to
keep more of the new people who try tango. You don't have to chase
anyone away, you just have to establish some good social rules.

There has been a lot of talk about whether or not beginners belong at
the milonga. Manuel has said that the milonga may not be a good place
for beginners, Tom stated that he doesn't like beginning lessons before
milongas. I am going to differ with these opinions in a few ways.

Certainly in a place like Bs.As. where there are so many places to
dance, and so many practicas to go to, and an established dance culture
beginners probably shouldn't try to dance at milongas right away.
Navigation is so challenging at a crowded Bs.As. milonga that they have
little hope of doing well. They will probably disrupt the flow of the
whole dance floor. That said I have never experienced anything like a
Bs.As. milonga in the United States. I doubt that there are many places
in the whole country where the dance floor gets half as crowded as in
Bs.As. Most of our communities are wanting more people, so we need to
make room for beginners.

I teach the beginning lesson before our Monday night milonga. The venue
is a popular one and there are always brand new people in the class. I
always teach something a first time person can do, and I encourage them
to stay on the dance floor and share in the fun. The dancing starts at
8:00 and some of these people stay until 10:00. They get a good taste
of what we do, and a lot of them want to do more. Some people learn
well in such a situation and when they do take group classes they
already know something, and they learn quickly. Since they have already
been out dancing they keep going out while they take classes.

In my experience teaching intermediate lessons before a milonga chases
the beginners away. It tells them that they won't be able to dance at a
milonga for awhile. It also has the effect of having the floor full of
people trying to practice the steps they just learned instead of dancing
well and navigating well. If you think a bunch of beginners, who know
that they don't know much, are bad for the flow of the dance floor you
should compare them with a bunch of people, who think they know
something already, trying out brand new steps on the dance floor. In my
experience the beginners adapt to the situation quite quickly. They are
rarely the navigation hazard that the more experienced dancers (who know
lots of steps) can be. Beginners tend to be modest, take smaller steps,
and genrally try to stay out of the way.

I have heard many dance teachers complain that it is very hard to get
their students to go out dancing. It isn't hard to understand when we
tell them that they shouldn't go out right away. we make it sound like
it is so difficult. The truth of the matter is that for them it will
never be as easy to get on the dance floor as it is right at the
begining when they don't know much. They won't feel like they have to
be anything because they are just getting started and they will stick to
easier steps, and often dance well enough. They will get plenty of
encouragement from the rest of the community.

About three months ago I began to crack down on some inexperienced
dancers who were teaching their way through the night at the Monday
milonga. Back then on a normal night about 80 people showed up. Since
the teaching has mostly stopped, I have seen some dramatic growth. Now
an average night is 100 - 110 people. Considering that people are on
vacation and I am not seeing some of the regular dancers, this
translates to between 30 and 40 new people who are dancing regularly.
Surprisingly the navigation on the floor isn't impossible. The
beginners join the ronda, the middle of the floor is empty, and I rarely
get bumped into. There is a little chaos, but that just gives me more
practice navigating.

Maybe you don't want beginners in your milongas, but until we have a
bigger community and crowding that makes it impossible for beginners, I
want anybody who is interested in tango to share our dance floors. I
want to have a friendly environment that lets people have fun. We all
know that the road is long, that doesn't mean that it can't be
enjoyable.

Happy dancing,

Robert

Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:23:08 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: attitude rant (and rejection)

Steve de Tejas writes:

> For example, one common problem among beginning followers is having their
> weight between their feet rather than on one foot or another.
> Consequently, they tend to push off the leader to move or anticipate the
> next step rather than following. The leader's comments will typically be,
> "You are pushing on me, " "You are leading," or "Just relax and wait."
> None of these comments provides much help to the follower.
>
> Another common problem in beginning followers is not rotating properly
> during turns--usually under rotation on the back step, and the use of quick
> to compensate. Consequently, they knock themselves and their partners off
> balance. No amount of verbal correction (abuse?) will help the follower
> until she develops proper technique for turns.

But Steve, it is never the follower's fault in tango. You must have
led her to do all those nasty things! Daniel Trenner could have picked someone
who had never danced before out of a crowd of 50 on the streets of Boston and
had her dancing perfectly! What is wrong with you?

To get more serious for a moment, I think we can all agree that more
often than not a problem in tango is due to the lead. Nevertheless, the
notion that seems so pervasive in this forum that followers never miss
a lead or jump the gun is ridiculous. My teacher has been dancing longer than
many if not most of the followers here, and she freely admits that she will
occasionally miss things, and apologizes when she does with the express purpose
of keeping her teaching honest. She'll say, for instance, "I wouldn't want you
to think you've made a bad lead when you haven't, and try to alter things for
the worse based upon erroneous feedback. So I'm always honest when it's me who
misses a lead. Sometimes I'm just not paying enough attention, it happens.
Or I'll just assume something is coming next when it isn't."

As someone else suggested awhile back, a good way to test your lead when
someone complains about it is to try to lead several other followers in the move
the particular follower in question is complaining about. If the other followers
also have problems with your lead, then obviously the problem is yours. If you
get mixed results, then your lead is probably a bit substandard and needs more
work (it's adequate enough for very accomplished followers, but not adequate
enough for weaker followers). If all the followers except the original complainer
have no problem following you, then it is probably the original complainer's
problem, not yours.

In a class or practica situation (where communication over such matters is
appropriate), assuming neither dancer has been dancing for twenty years or
something, I find it is important for both leaders and followers to have an open
mind and not cop an attitude that any problems arising are probably due to the
other person. Politeness and an attitude of "let's get to the root of whatever's
going wrong and solve it together" is essential. Suggestions like, "What if we
tried <such and such>," or "Am I opening enough for you here," etc., tend to work.
Statements like "You're doing (or not doing) <such and such>" in an accusatory tone
definitely do not work, for either party.

I also find it very useful in a group class situation to alter the routine
being taught so as to force the followers to abandon choreography and actually
follow (and me to lead). For instance, if we are practicing a sequence featuring
a back boleo, I will lead a back ocho sometimes and a back boleo other times, to
ensure that I am really leading a boleo and not just being a prop for some
choreographed routine. This helps both me and the follower to actually learn how
to lead and follow, so that later out on the milonga floor there is no big
surprise that, gosh, nobody is following this nifty move we just did this morning
in class (because it was, in reality, only rehearsed choreography, and not actually
led and followed).

Huck

Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 09:45:01 -0700
From: Sergio <sergio@NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Fw: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

A mail received in our own internal discussions.
I am forwarding a note from a lady in our group, not a list member. I
thought it could be of interest to all.

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)

> Having been promoted from Beginner to whatever follows, very recently, MY
> altitude has not changed! I am "down" on the floor, at the mercy of THE
> LEAD!
> The Tango WALK is our salvation. On a crowded floor, it works...Alone as a
> couple...It works...As a beginner Follower or Lead...It works! It is THE
> MUSIC that beckons and once into YOUR arms, WE are VIRGIN TERRITORY!

There

> are "the Talkers" and "the Lovers"!
> I have noticed that it is THE MEN who seem to complain the most about what
> goes on...!
> Argentine Tango is THE DANCE OF LOVE, suggestive and subject to the
> interpretation and sensitivity of The Conductor! Most want us to run

before

> we can WALK!
> At a Melonga recently I saw our Tango Master dance with a Beginner. It was
> quite a Show! As he quickly determined her level and ability to flex to

his

> will, we witnessed a series of Calassitas which made us salivate with
> desire!
> He went into his "seduction moves" leaving us (not to say the least) her,
> panting for more. I was reminded of a song by Madonna entitled "Like a
> Virgin". This was TANGO! with all it's implications! Women come into your
> arms, TRUSTING, with expectations of respect which is shown by SLOW AND
> GRACEFUL steps, to the music ,created for A PROGRESSION of
> expressions...with ample room (in your head), for faster rhythms, A

FOREPLAY

> of things to come...!
> Argentine Tango is for LOVERS, not for JERKS!
> Your Attitude determines our altitude!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sergio <sergio@ncinter.net>
> To: ANTHONY SALA <tonsal@adelphia.net>
> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 10:08 PM
> Subject: Fw: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)
>
>
> > We have been discussing beginners and teaching at the milongas.
> > Teaching should be left put of the milongas a place where everyone goes

to

> > dance.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
> > To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 11:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: Attitude rant (and rejection)
> >
> >
> > > Hey everybody,
> > >
> > > I am really happy to see how this discussion is going because our
> > > manners at milongas are probably the most important factor effecting

the

> > > growth of our dance communities. I would like to add my comments to
> > > some things that have been said over the last few days in this thread.
> > >
> > > First of all since we all seem to agree that teaching on the dance

floor

> > > at a milonga is a bad thing, we all need to do something in our
> > > communities to reduce it to a minimum. As someone said earlier, this

is

> > > often done by fairly inexperienced leaders, who have been dancing for
> > > awhile, and who need to feel like they know something. These people
> > > usually dance only with beginners, and they teach a steady stream on

the

> > > floor from the beginning of the milonga until they leave. I don't

think

> > > they mean to really hurt anybody, I think that they are happy to have
> > > the feeling that they know something, and they are still very excited
> > > about tango and want to share the fun. Thay are also probably still
> > > feeling insecure in their knowledge and dancing with beginners gives
> > > them the illusion of knowledge. That said though the constant

teaching

> > > does drive beginners away.
> > >
> > > I have seen this in our community over the years. I have been

involved

> > > in running a practica or hosting a milonga for more than 4 years and I
> > > can say with confidence that when there are as few as 2 or 3 leaders
> > > doing this very few beginners stick around. This is the primary

effect,

> > > but also the ones doing all the teaching seem to stop learning. Since
> > > these people have such a negative effect on the growth of your

community

> > > they need to be persuaded to stop teaching and just dance. They will
> > > begin to learn again and become better dancers, and you will be able

to

> > > keep more of the new people who try tango. You don't have to chase
> > > anyone away, you just have to establish some good social rules.
> > >
> > > There has been a lot of talk about whether or not beginners belong at
> > > the milonga. Manuel has said that the milonga may not be a good place
> > > for beginners, Tom stated that he doesn't like beginning lessons

before

> > > milongas. I am going to differ with these opinions in a few ways.
> > >
> > > Certainly in a place like Bs.As. where there are so many places to
> > > dance, and so many practicas to go to, and an established dance

culture

> > > beginners probably shouldn't try to dance at milongas right away.
> > > Navigation is so challenging at a crowded Bs.As. milonga that they

have

> > > little hope of doing well. They will probably disrupt the flow of the
> > > whole dance floor. That said I have never experienced anything like a
> > > Bs.As. milonga in the United States. I doubt that there are many

places

> > > in the whole country where the dance floor gets half as crowded as in
> > > Bs.As. Most of our communities are wanting more people, so we need to
> > > make room for beginners.
> > >
> > > I teach the beginning lesson before our Monday night milonga. The

venue

> > > is a popular one and there are always brand new people in the class.

I

> > > always teach something a first time person can do, and I encourage

them

> > > to stay on the dance floor and share in the fun. The dancing starts

at

> > > 8:00 and some of these people stay until 10:00. They get a good taste
> > > of what we do, and a lot of them want to do more. Some people learn
> > > well in such a situation and when they do take group classes they
> > > already know something, and they learn quickly. Since they have

already

> > > been out dancing they keep going out while they take classes.
> > >
> > > In my experience teaching intermediate lessons before a milonga chases
> > > the beginners away. It tells them that they won't be able to dance at

a

> > > milonga for awhile. It also has the effect of having the floor full

of

> > > people trying to practice the steps they just learned instead of

dancing

> > > well and navigating well. If you think a bunch of beginners, who know
> > > that they don't know much, are bad for the flow of the dance floor you
> > > should compare them with a bunch of people, who think they know
> > > something already, trying out brand new steps on the dance floor. In

my

> > > experience the beginners adapt to the situation quite quickly. They

are

> > > rarely the navigation hazard that the more experienced dancers (who

know

> > > lots of steps) can be. Beginners tend to be modest, take smaller

steps,

> > > and genrally try to stay out of the way.
> > >
> > > I have heard many dance teachers complain that it is very hard to get
> > > their students to go out dancing. It isn't hard to understand when we
> > > tell them that they shouldn't go out right away. we make it sound

like

> > > it is so difficult. The truth of the matter is that for them it will
> > > never be as easy to get on the dance floor as it is right at the
> > > begining when they don't know much. They won't feel like they have to
> > > be anything because they are just getting started and they will stick

to

> > > easier steps, and often dance well enough. They will get plenty of
> > > encouragement from the rest of the community.
> > >
> > > About three months ago I began to crack down on some inexperienced
> > > dancers who were teaching their way through the night at the Monday
> > > milonga. Back then on a normal night about 80 people showed up.

Since

> > > the teaching has mostly stopped, I have seen some dramatic growth.

Now

> > > an average night is 100 - 110 people. Considering that people are on
> > > vacation and I am not seeing some of the regular dancers, this
> > > translates to between 30 and 40 new people who are dancing regularly.
> > > Surprisingly the navigation on the floor isn't impossible. The
> > > beginners join the ronda, the middle of the floor is empty, and I

rarely

> > > get bumped into. There is a little chaos, but that just gives me more
> > > practice navigating.
> > >
> > > Maybe you don't want beginners in your milongas, but until we have a
> > > bigger community and crowding that makes it impossible for beginners,

I

> > > want anybody who is interested in tango to share our dance floors. I
> > > want to have a friendly environment that lets people have fun. We all
> > > know that the road is long, that doesn't mean that it can't be
> > > enjoyable.
> > >
> > > Happy dancing,
> > >
> > > Robert
> > >
> >
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> >
> > >
> >
>