1379  Ballroom and Argentine Tango

Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 15:41:24 -0700
From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Ballroom and Argentine Tango

Actually, Ballroom Tango has had a longer history then the modern Argentine Tango. Argentine Tango as we know it today did not even exist when modern Ballroom Tango began in the 1910's. (At that time, it wasn't called Ballroom Tango but just Tango) In the teens, Argentine Tango was the Canyengue which is very different then what we dance today. One obvious difference is that in Canyengue, the feet are lifted off the floor (they used to dance on dirt floors) It was when people started dancing on real floors that they could and did 'brush' the floor. One would think they were in love with a real floor! Modern Argentine Tango began in the 1930's and 1940's. How can one call Argentine Tango the 'true' Tango or even the 'original' Tango? Both Tangos originated from the same source. That is from Argentina although each came by a different route to America and developed differently. Both are beautiful and true dances. How can one possibly be the true one and one the false one??????????

Cheerio
Tango Guy




Charles Roques <Crrtango@AOL.COM> wrote:
Bibi wrote:

<<Argentina for centuries, I don't see anything wrong about:

- Someone having the humility and passion to learn more about the culture,
in lieu of satisfyingly stopping at where they are.
- Someone who offers a new angle to view the subject matter.>>>

Neither do I see anything wrong with that nor should they stop where they
are. That is my point exactly - spend time learning it. But it is interesting how
much time and discipline the Argentines devote to learning tango compared to
how little our culture (or others) devotes to it before deciding that it can
be "improved." Piazzolla spent years playing and arranged for Anibal Troilo
before setting out on his own. His music is informed by traditional tango. He
knows it very well and that is where the beauty and vitality comes from - playing
against that.

The structure and form of tango is what gives it it's identity. People are
quick to condemn International and Ballroom Tango as not being authentic even
though they probably evolved from a similar need to "interpret" Argentine tango.


Cheers,
Charles

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 00:04:07 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine Tango

<In the teens, Argentine Tango was the Canyengue which is very different
then what we dance today>

I think you are referring to styles of Tango Dance in history. Canyengue,
Traditional, and Modern are styles of Tango dance and music. For example,
Tango El Choclo (Canyengue), La Cumparsita (Traditional), La Yumba (Modern).

Regards,

Bruno

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 12:00:13 -0700
From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine Tango

Yes. You are correct. I am referring to Canyengue as a style of Tango.
Wes

Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET> wrote:
then what we dance today>

I think you are referring to styles of Tango Dance in history. Canyengue,
Traditional, and Modern are styles of Tango dance and music. For example,
Tango El Choclo (Canyengue), La Cumparsita (Traditional), La Yumba (Modern).

Regards,

Bruno

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 15:03:13 -0400
From: Sergio <Cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Ballroom and Argentine tango

Tango guy says:

"Actually, Ballroom Tango has had a longer history then the modern Argentine
Tango. Argentine Tango as we know it today did not even exist when modern
Ballroom Tango began in the 1910's. (At that time, it wasn't called Ballroom
Tango but just Tango) In the teens, Argentine Tango was the Canyengue which
is very different then what we dance today. "

I am curious to know if anybody agrees with this.

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 12:42:44 -0700
From: Ricardo Tanturi <tanturi999@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

For what it's worth - Richard Powers is an American
scholar of vintage dance at Stanford. I think I
remember hearing him say that according to his
analysis of written descriptions of Tango in
Argentina in the decade following the turn of the
century, the tango that was danced at that time was
very similar to the International Tango of today.
In other words, that International Ballroom Tango
is a sort of frozen snapshot of tango as it was danced

around 1910.

For my personal opinion - since apparently the
tango music that was recorded from that time in
Argentina was quite different from the music of
the Golden Age, I think we can assume that the
dance steps (and feeling) have changed as well.
Imagine dancing your Di Sarli or Troilo steps to the
music on "El Bandoneon de Pacho".

(I say "apparently" in the paragraph above since I'm
certainly no expert.)

"Ricardo"

--- Sergio <Cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET> wrote:

> Tango guy says:
>
> "Actually, Ballroom Tango has had a longer history
> then the modern Argentine
> Tango. Argentine Tango as we know it today did not
> even exist when modern
> Ballroom Tango began in the 1910's. (At that time,
> it wasn't called Ballroom
> Tango but just Tango) In the teens, Argentine Tango
> was the Canyengue which
> is very different then what we dance today. "
>
> I am curious to know if anybody agrees with this.
>

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 13:15:35 -0700
From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

Tango guy says:

"Actually, Ballroom Tango has had a longer history then the modern Argentine
Tango. Argentine Tango as we know it today did not even exist when modern
Ballroom Tango began in the 1910's. (At that time, it wasn't called Ballroom
Tango but just Tango) In the teens, Argentine Tango was the Canyengue which
is very different then what we dance today. "



Sergio Wrote in reply:
I am curious to know if anybody agrees with this.



Tango Guy responds(Me!):
Yes. I'm curious also. This could be a very interesting discussion indeed!

Actually, Tango was brought from Paris to New York, by a young couple named Vernon and Irene Castle, and initiated the American Tango craze about 1912-14. The Tango craze was part of the general dance craze of the era. This craze in its turn initiated the Dance Wars and the Tango Battle. Puritan elements in America wanted all dancing regulated because of the so-called sexual 'depravity' they thought they saw in them and the Tango was thought to be the most depraved of all. There were even laws proposed in the US Congress to have Tango banned altogether. Although Tango was in America since 1907, it was quite unknown by the general public until the Castles made it, as well as many other dances, popular. They even invented a dance called the 'Castlewalk' which brought together many of the more popular dances of the time into the Castlewalk. The various dances that made up the Castlewalk were thought of as merely 'steps.' So the idea of a dance being many steps became a popular notion. This idea led in time to th
e Ballroom dances of today. It is interesting to note that one of the Castlewalk steps was called the Fox Trot. Eventually the Fox Trot became a separate dance with its own steps. Tango acquired steps of its own (the Castles helped here) and eventually developed into the modern Ballroom Tango of today.

It's really pointless to say one Tango preceded the other because they all came from the same source. I only make this comment because of the discussion of what 'real' tango is and which is the most 'original.'
Such a discussion is totally pointless. Both dances are equally legitimate in their own regard. Each is as it is because of the cultural influences each thrived in.

I said in my prior e-mail: "In the teens, Argentine Tango was the Canyengue which is very different then what we dance today. " Let me add that I think the Orillero was starting in the teens if I'm not mistaken. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Warm Regards
Tango Guy

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 21:22:53 +0100
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

Ricardo Tanturi <tanturi999@YAHOO.COM> writes:

> For what it's worth - Richard Powers is an American scholar of
> vintage dance at Stanford. I think I remember hearing him say that
> according to his analysis of written descriptions of Tango in
> Argentina in the decade following the turn of the century, the tango
> that was danced at that time was very similar to the International
> Tango of today. In other words, that International Ballroom Tango
> is a sort of frozen snapshot of tango as it was danced around 1910.

<https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.GSO.3.96.990828195756.14058B-100000%40myth8.Stanford.EDU>

(In summary, he says yes, that's what happened: ballroom tango is
different in superficial ways (and definitely the music), but
Argentine tango has changed more. Ditto for samba.)

[...]

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 17:20:27 EDT
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

So which came first?  Would it be presumptuous of me to say International
Ballroom Tango copied the original tango from Argentina?  That Argentine tango
evolved but not IBT?

mallpasso



In a message dated 6/8/2003 12:43:51 Pacific Standard Time,
tanturi999@YAHOO.COM writes:

> Subj: Re: [TANGO-L] Ballroom and Argentine tango
> Date: 6/8/2003 12:43:51 Pacific Standard Time
> From: <A HREF="mailto:tanturi999@YAHOO.COM">tanturi999@YAHOO.COM</A>
> To: <A HREF="mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU">TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU</A>
> Sent from the Internet
>
>
>
> For what it's worth - Richard Powers is an American
> scholar of vintage dance at Stanford. I think I
> remember hearing him say that according to his
> analysis of written descriptions of Tango in
> Argentina in the decade following the turn of the
> century, the tango that was danced at that time was
> very similar to the International Tango of today.
> In other words, that International Ballroom Tango
> is a sort of frozen snapshot of tango as it was danced
>
> around 1910.
>
> For my personal opinion - since apparently the
> tango music that was recorded from that time in
> Argentina was quite different from the music of
> the Golden Age, I think we can assume that the
> dance steps (and feeling) have changed as well.
> Imagine dancing your Di Sarli or Troilo steps to the
> music on "El Bandoneon de Pacho".
>
> (I say "apparently" in the paragraph above since I'm
> certainly no expert.)
>
> "Ricardo"
>
> --- Sergio <Cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET> wrote:
> >Tango guy says:
> >
> >"Actually, Ballroom Tango has had a longer history
> >then the modern Argentine
> >Tango. Argentine Tango as we know it today did not
> >even exist when modern
> >Ballroom Tango began in the 1910's. (At that time,
> >it wasn't called Ballroom
> >Tango but just Tango) In the teens, Argentine Tango
> >was the Canyengue which
> >is very different then what we dance today. "
> >
> >I am curious to know if anybody agrees with this.
> >
>
>
>
>

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 21:11:16 -0400
From: Jason Laughlin - Tangophilia <jason@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

At 05:20 PM 6/8/2003 -0400, Mallpasso@AOL.COM wrote:

>So which came first? Would it be presumptuous of me to say International
>Ballroom Tango copied the original tango from Argentina? That Argentine
>tango
>evolved but not IBT?

Let's take a look at the primary documentary evidence available from the US
Library of Congress. They have a fascinating collection of "dance manuals"
from that era, and you can see who originated what and when (including one
manual's theory that there are multiple tangos, one for each "originator"
in the US or England). I last looked at these a year or more ago, and
based on their descriptions it appears to me that ballroom tango was
created as a very limited subset of moves that could be standardized,
taught, and made acceptable in polite Victorian society in the US and
Northern Europe. It seems as though the need to categorize tango, and
stake out differentiable territory for marketing purposes, was just as
important in that era is it is on this list :-) I reproduce my favorite
excerpts below.

Primary documentary evidence is a fascinating thing -- I'd love for any of
these people willing to assert that "Piazzolla said x or meant y" to
produce some reliable primary evidence or published interview instead of
the usual hearsay and speculation.

Go here, and search for tango
https://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/musdibibquery.html
The results provide searchable plain-text and direct image scans of the
actual pages.

For the milieu of ragtime-era dancing:
https://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/diessay7.html

For digitized filmclips of various steps being demonstrated:
https://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html

Choice Quotes:

"The Tango, shorn of crudities which caused it to be criticized,
has been
accepted, in its later form, as a graceful and delightful dance,
lending
charming variety to dance programmes."

"A wide diversity of steps, requiring practice together by the
lady and
gentleman, resulted, until recently, in the Tango being usually
danced by
what may be termed regular partners, thus making it more of an
exhibition
dance than one available to all of the dancers in a ballroom. But
this
phase of the development of the Tango has virtually passed. The
dance has
rapidly been standardized. The representative dancing masters of the
continent have selected the steps most suitable for the ballroom,
and are
now teaching these steps in all the cities."

"It is these approved and adopted steps which are herein
described. Ability
to dance them means that you can dance the Tango anywhere in good
society."

"Note--It is very bad form to "clutch" one's partner in the Tango. In
addition to being tabooed in good society, this practice make it
impossible
to dance with case and grace such steps as the first and the third
and
fourth in the Tango Walk; "


This one cites the existence of The Tango, the Maurice Tango, the Santley
Tango, then the Argentine Tango (2 versions), and the Innovation

"JOSEPH C. SMITH Originator of the Tango, showing the first step
in the dance."

"We now come to one of the original Argentine Tangos. The one
which I will
endeavor to describe for you is quite universally used by many of the
expert dancers demonstrating the Tango on the stage. Real Tango
music is
necessary to properly dance this Tango."

The Innovation "This Tango was introduced lately in New York, and
can be
taken with any of the foregoing Tangos. The object of this dance
is that
you do not touch your partner, taking the steps with arms akimbo,
or, in
other words, with hands on hips. You will have to take your steps
exactly
the same, but without the assistance of your partner, which will mean
practice, so that you will not be pulling away from your partner. The
object of the Innovation is to get away from the idea some people
have that
these dances are improper."


"When it was first introduced into this country the Tango aroused
a storm
of protest. It was said that it was the most suggestive and
immoral dance
ever presented in public, and in the way it was danced it probably
was.
Properly danced, however, the Tango is no more suggestive nor
immoral from
any viewpoint than the most dainty old fashioned waltz."

"there are at least twenty authentic figures which may properly
find a
place in the dance although there are but eight generally used in its
native land. These eight figures, which I shall describe in
detail, give
all the opportunity for variety which the most energetic dancer might
demand, and it is just as well to confine one's attention to them
instead
of trying to master the almost endless variety of steps which have
been
grafted into the dance."

"It is for this reason that it is almost impossible for a
gentleman to
dance the tango with a lady with whom he has never rehearsed it,
unless, of
course, both are familiar with the names of the various figures
and the
gentleman announces in due time to his partner just which figure
he intends
to execute.

While, as I have explained, there is no set or standard order in
which the
various figures ought to be danced, the order I follow in
instructing my
pupils is as follows: First, The Walk; Two, the Corte, which is the
principal step of the tango and is sometimes referred to as the
"Five";
Three, the single three; Four, the Fan, or eight crossing; Five, the
Scissors or Double Crossing; Six, the half-moon, or Media Luna;
Seven, the
Passo, or passing; and Eight, the Evantaille."

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 19:42:57 -0300
From: Ruben Carlos Terbalca <rubenmilonga@SINECTIS.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

Please... is not right !!
We have here, in Bs.As. dancers around 90 / 100 years old (Carmen Calderon
and others).-
Please, check.
I did know personally "Petroleo" , who learns in the ten's from a famous
dancer in 1890.
This information about Ballroom here is not right in any way,-
Just check here , in Bs.As.-
When I start to dance in 1956, and when I start to watch (I was a kid) in
the forties , I meet old people in this time (70-80 years old...) they did
know the styles after 900 .... nothing to do with the Ballroom.- At this
time we had "bailes de patio" ("other kind"of milongas). Was like neighbors
parties, and they dance there ....not like Ballroom in any way...
sorry
Ruben
from Buenos Aires
(excuse my bad English)

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, 08 de June de 2003 5:22 p.m.
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Ballroom and Argentine tango

> Ricardo Tanturi <tanturi999@YAHOO.COM> writes:
>
> > For what it's worth - Richard Powers is an American scholar of
> > vintage dance at Stanford. I think I remember hearing him say that
> > according to his analysis of written descriptions of Tango in
> > Argentina in the decade following the turn of the century, the tango
> > that was danced at that time was very similar to the International
> > Tango of today. In other words, that International Ballroom Tango
> > is a sort of frozen snapshot of tango as it was danced around 1910.
>
>

<https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.GSO.3.96.990828195756.14058B-1000
00%40myth8.Stanford.EDU>

>
> (In summary, he says yes, that's what happened: ballroom tango is
> different in superficial ways (and definitely the music), but
> Argentine tango has changed more. Ditto for samba.)
>
> [...]
>
>

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 00:30:11 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

>At 05:20 PM 6/8/2003 -0400, Mallpasso@AOL.COM wrote:
>>So which came first? Would it be presumptuous of me to say International
>>Ballroom Tango copied the original tango from Argentina? That Argentine
>>tango evolved but not IBT?
>
>Let's take a look at the primary documentary evidence available from the US
>Library of Congress. They have a fascinating collection of "dance manuals"
>from that era, and you can see who originated what and when (including one
>manual's theory that there are multiple tangos, one for each "originator"
>in the US or England). I last looked at these a year or more ago, and
>based on their descriptions it appears to me that ballroom tango was
>created as a very limited subset of moves that could be standardized,
>taught, and made acceptable in polite Victorian society in the US and
>Northern Europe. It seems as though the need to categorize tango, and
>stake out differentiable territory for marketing purposes, was just as
>important in that era is it is on this list :-) I reproduce my favorite
>excerpts below.

Richard Powers assertion is that the original vintage ballroom tango
is closely related to the vintage 1915 tango of Buenos Aires, and
that tango changed quite a bit in Argentina, but remained relatively
frozen outside Argentina.

Just because Argentines are outraged that the Hollywood, British or
American versions of tango might have any resemblance to the "real"
tango, doesn't counter Powers' research.

Nor do I think you have countered it. Powers claims to have
researched the earliest dance manuals, and found such a similarity.
One thing that would have helped your quotes is dates, and whether
they were American, British or French tango manuals.

Do you quote different dance manuals? Or are they the same ones?
Somehow I feel these were written in the 1920s or later as they seem
to describe the standardization process as N. American teachers
taught each other and promoted tango to their audience of students.

It is certainly believable that they would feel the need to clean
tango up for N.Amerian consumption...

Not like that would happen today? (Hmm......close embrace or tango
at arms length? Ruben, how DID they dance tango in the bordellos in
1915? Does tango in the US today look like tango at a typical Buenos
Aires Milonga today? What is authentic, anyway? )


In her book "Tango and the political economy of passion", Marta
Savigliano describes the huge popularity of tango in France in the
1910s. Her sources claim there were a large number of Argentines
going to Paris as tango instructors. In one quote, one of them
complains that it was impossible to make a living anymore as there
are 100s of argentines teaching tango...sort of like New York today.

This would indicate a certain direct relationship between the french
and argentine tango styles of 1915, unless those old argentines were
already cleaning it up for export, or unless the french chose to
learn some aspects and refused others. Do you suppose they were
teaching the style they "actually did in Buenos Aires". Were these
teachers sailors and dock hands or were they rich kids who learned
tango slumming in the bordellos?...

Then what happened next?

- Obviously in BsAs the tango music changed, in particular in the 1930s.
- Obviously in BsAs the dance changed as it entered the middle
classes in the late 1930s

It is pretty cool that tango from 1940s & 50s Buenos Aires got frozen
and preserved...


I had the opportunity to hear and watch "Choro" in Brazil in the late
1970s at a little social club. Very cool music & dance. My faulty
memory recalls it looking like milonga if you add some quebradas
(those sexy brazilians!) Damn, but I wish I had gone to learn it at
that time.

Who knows if anyone does it anymore?



--

Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 18:41:53 -0700
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

>>So which came first? Would it be presumptuous of me to say International
>Ballroom Tango copied the original tango from Argentina? That Argentine

tango
.>evolved but not IBT?


Lo dudo. My impression from lots of reading and talking to historians like
Ruben Terbalca, is that the early tango was similar to what we now call
canyengue, but that as it was danced in more elegant places like, perhaps,
prosperous brothels, on wood or tile floors, it became smoother. There are
lots of photos of folks in Edwardian era clothing looking pretty elegant.
The wealthy Argentines who brought tango to Paris and other European
capitals starting in about 1908, such as Ricardo Guiraldes, the playboy
writer (his gaucho novel Don Segundo Sombra is a classic) were not used to
dancing in the dirt. So I would imagine that there were several versions of
tango even then. In the mid'teens when tango became somewhat accepted by a
few of the middle and upper class portenos (all my equivocation is because
to this day it is not respectable in conservative circles), it became 'tango
liso', smooth tango to distinguish it from canyenque. Articles were written
by Viejo Tanguero complaining about this Europeanization of the rougher
early tango. The Pope even accepted a nice clean version of tango about this
time -- I doubt if it was canyengue. So my guess it that the tango embraced
in Europe between 1908-15 was a smoother version of that danced in the slums
of Buenos Aires, then the Europeans and Northamericans ritualized it into
ballroom dances, while a smoother version returned to Argentina where it
kept changing little by little but maintained a more spontaneous and
improvized flavor that International and American style tango lost, or never
had. I think the tango embraced (!) by the dreaded tango 'Purists" (like me)
goes back not much farther than the late '30s and '40s.
This is all speculation. Please let's hear other ideas, especially from
folks who have done some research on the subject.
Barbara






















----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Ballroom and Argentine tango


So which came first? Would it be presumptuous of me to say International
Ballroom Tango copied the original tango from Argentina? That Argentine
tango
evolved but not IBT?

mallpasso



In a message dated 6/8/2003 12:43:51 Pacific Standard Time,
tanturi999@YAHOO.COM writes:

> Subj: Re: [TANGO-L] Ballroom and Argentine tango
> Date: 6/8/2003 12:43:51 Pacific Standard Time
> From: <A HREF="mailto:tanturi999@YAHOO.COM">tanturi999@YAHOO.COM</A>
> To: <A HREF="mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU">TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU</A>
> Sent from the Internet
>
>
>
> For what it's worth - Richard Powers is an American
> scholar of vintage dance at Stanford. I think I
> remember hearing him say that according to his
> analysis of written descriptions of Tango in
> Argentina in the decade following the turn of the
> century, the tango that was danced at that time was
> very similar to the International Tango of today.
> In other words, that International Ballroom Tango
> is a sort of frozen snapshot of tango as it was danced
>
> around 1910.
>
> For my personal opinion - since apparently the
> tango music that was recorded from that time in
> Argentina was quite different from the music of
> the Golden Age, I think we can assume that the
> dance steps (and feeling) have changed as well.
> Imagine dancing your Di Sarli or Troilo steps to the
> music on "El Bandoneon de Pacho".
>
> (I say "apparently" in the paragraph above since I'm
> certainly no expert.)
>
> "Ricardo"
>
> --- Sergio <Cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET> wrote:
> >Tango guy says:
> >
> >"Actually, Ballroom Tango has had a longer history
> >then the modern Argentine
> >Tango. Argentine Tango as we know it today did not
> >even exist when modern
> >Ballroom Tango began in the 1910's. (At that time,
> >it wasn't called Ballroom
> >Tango but just Tango) In the teens, Argentine Tango
> >was the Canyengue which
> >is very different then what we dance today. "
> >
> >I am curious to know if anybody agrees with this.
> >
>
>
>
>

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 23:07:37 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

I think the tango embraced (!) by the dreaded tango 'Purists" (like me)

> goes back not much farther than the late '30s and '40s.
> This is all speculation. Please let's hear other ideas, especially from
> folks who have done some research on the subject.
> Barbara
>

Unfortunately, most of my reference material has been taken back to BsAs or
Berlin by the teachers and friends who lent it to me. So I can quote only by
memory. I distinctly remember two quotes, one by some famous writer or
something, who watched a tango event in the early days:"Yes, but why do they
do that standing up?"
The other one was by somebody else, and may have been during a later
era:"They say that tango has a bad reputation, but this is a dance that
could be danced by any lady of high standing without damaging her
reputation."
Sorry for not being able to give you clear dates, names or sources. Anyway,
they were both published in a book on tango by a scholar of the
Iberocultural research institute in Hamburg, as far as I remember.
One more thing I read in "Tango-una guia definitiva", where they describe at
great length the "tango para las hermanas", the tango that was taught by the
milonga-going, carousing older brothers to their sisters, who wanted to
dance too, but were kept under strict supervision and protected from going
morally astray. The "tango para las hermanas" was probably the same as
the"tango sin cortes y quebradas", as far as I remember, meaning a watered
down version of the tango, easy to learn for the nice little sisters, and
completely devoid of any sexy, seductive moves. I wonder why noone every
seems to mention this one, it took up a great section in the "Guia".
Now, if anybody could explain what exactly was meant by those "cortes y
quebradas" (cuts and breaks), which I suspect, may be something like paradas
and calecitas, I'd be grateful.

Astrid

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:07:47 EDT
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

Yo Barbara et al:

This is interesting and informative. Last month I took a series of four
classes with Felipe and Rosa at the Metronome in San Francisco. They taught tango
liso, and according to him, they dance tango liso in Buenos Aires. It's a
very simple form of tango, close embrace with very little complicated figures
but lots of turns and some syncopation.

mallpasso



In a message dated 6/9/2003 00:07:04 Pacific Standard Time,
barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM writes:

> Subj: Re: [TANGO-L] Ballroom and Argentine tango
> Date: 6/9/2003 00:07:04 Pacific Standard Time
> From: <A HREF="mailto:barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM">barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM</A>
> To: <A HREF="mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU">TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU</A>
> Sent from the Internet
>
>
>
> >>So which came first? Would it be presumptuous of me to say International
> >Ballroom Tango copied the original tango from Argentina? That Argentine
> tango
> .>evolved but not IBT?
>
>
> Lo dudo. My impression from lots of reading and talking to historians like
> Ruben Terbalca, is that the early tango was similar to what we now call
> canyengue, but that as it was danced in more elegant places like, perhaps,
> prosperous brothels, on wood or tile floors, it became smoother. There are
> lots of photos of folks in Edwardian era clothing looking pretty elegant.
> The wealthy Argentines who brought tango to Paris and other European
> capitals starting in about 1908, such as Ricardo Guiraldes, the playboy
> writer (his gaucho novel Don Segundo Sombra is a classic) were not used to
> dancing in the dirt. So I would imagine that there were several versions of
> tango even then. In the mid'teens when tango became somewhat accepted by a
> few of the middle and upper class portenos (all my equivocation is because
> to this day it is not respectable in conservative circles), it became 'tango
> liso', smooth tango to distinguish it from canyenque. Articles were written
> by Viejo Tanguero complaining about this Europeanization of the rougher
> early tango. The Pope even accepted a nice clean version of tango about this
> time -- I doubt if it was canyengue. So my guess it that the tango embraced
> in Europe between 1908-15 was a smoother version of that danced in the slums
> of Buenos Aires, then the Europeans and Northamericans ritualized it into
> ballroom dances, while a smoother version returned to Argentina where it
> kept changing little by little but maintained a more spontaneous and
> improvized flavor that International and American style tango lost, or never
> had. I think the tango embraced (!) by the dreaded tango 'Purists" (like me)
> goes back not much farther than the late '30s and '40s.
> This is all speculation. Please let's hear other ideas, especially from
> folks who have done some research on the subject.
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
> To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 2:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Ballroom and Argentine tango
>
>
> So which came first? Would it be presumptuous of me to say International
> Ballroom Tango copied the original tango from Argentina? That Argentine
> tango
> evolved but not IBT?
>
> mallpasso
>
>
>
> In a message dated 6/8/2003 12:43:51 Pacific Standard Time,
> tanturi999@YAHOO.COM writes:
>
> >Subj: Re: [TANGO-L] Ballroom and Argentine tango
> > Date: 6/8/2003 12:43:51 Pacific Standard Time
> > From: <A HREF="mailto:tanturi999@YAHOO.COM">tanturi999@YAHOO.COM</A>
> > To: <A HREF="mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU">TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU</A>
> > Sent from the Internet
> >
> >
> >
> >For what it's worth - Richard Powers is an American
> >scholar of vintage dance at Stanford. I think I
> >remember hearing him say that according to his
> >analysis of written descriptions of Tango in
> >Argentina in the decade following the turn of the
> >century, the tango that was danced at that time was
> >very similar to the International Tango of today.
> >In other words, that International Ballroom Tango
> >is a sort of frozen snapshot of tango as it was danced
> >
> >around 1910.
> >
> >For my personal opinion - since apparently the
> >tango music that was recorded from that time in
> >Argentina was quite different from the music of
> >the Golden Age, I think we can assume that the
> >dance steps (and feeling) have changed as well.
> >Imagine dancing your Di Sarli or Troilo steps to the
> >music on "El Bandoneon de Pacho".
> >
> >(I say "apparently" in the paragraph above since I'm
> >certainly no expert.)
> >
> >"Ricardo"
> >
> >--- Sergio <Cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET> wrote:
> >>Tango guy says:
> >>
> >>"Actually, Ballroom Tango has had a longer history
> >>then the modern Argentine
> >>Tango. Argentine Tango as we know it today did not
> >>even exist when modern
> >>Ballroom Tango began in the 1910's. (At that time,
> >>it wasn't called Ballroom
> >>Tango but just Tango) In the teens, Argentine Tango
> >>was the Canyengue which
> >>is very different then what we dance today. "
> >>
> >>I am curious to know if anybody agrees with this.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:01:23 -0300
From: Ruben Carlos Terbalca <rubenmilonga@SINECTIS.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

Please, check the film "TANGO" (1933).-
There you can see the famous milonguero "Jose Ovidio Bianquet": was born in
1985; In 1911 was a famous "traditionalist" (in the language of this list ).
You also can see the afro influence in his partner movements ,because they
dance in a very old way.-
If you find relation between the early Tango Argentino and your theory, you
can come here -Buenos Aires- and teach Ballroom to help us to know our
roots.
The last partner (other one)-Carmen Calderon- alive today....ask about your
discovering.-
Ruben Terbalca
N.: some friendly people ask me to write for the list about several
subjects. Now you can see what happens...


----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, 09 de June de 2003 3:30 a.m.
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Ballroom and Argentine tango

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:16:12 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

RT wrote:

>For what it's worth - Richard Powers is an American
>scholar of vintage dance at Stanford. I think I
>remember hearing him say that according to his
>analysis of written descriptions of Tango in
>Argentina in the decade following the turn of the
>century, the tango that was danced at that time was
>very similar to the International Tango of today.
>In other words, that International Ballroom Tango
>is a sort of frozen snapshot of tango as it was danced
>around 1910.

According to Powers (1999)
<https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.GSO.3.96.990828195756.14058B-100000%40myth8.Stanford.EDU>

>>With the exception of much-changed "International" (British) competition

ballroom tango (with the non-Argentine head-snaps), social dancers have
had little reason to reconfigure the version they adopted in 1910. So
they didn't change it much. ...

Yes, I have detailed, illustrated descriptions of El Tango Argentino de
Salon written by Argentine dance instructors in Buenos Aires in 1914, and
it is (was) VERY similar to today's social ballroom tango, and not too
much like today's tango Argentino. Again because 'gringo' dancers have
had no reason to change it, and Argentines have.<<

As I recall from a previous discussion on Tango-L, Ruddy Zelaya produced
evidence that knowledgable tango dancers from the same era when the manual
was written denied the accuacy of the manual.

With best regards,
Steve

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 09:55:59 -0700
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

> Please, check the film "TANGO" (1933).-
> There you can see the famous milonguero "Jose Ovidio Bianquet": was born

in

> 1985; In 1911 was a famous "traditionalist" (in the language of this

list ).

> You also can see the afro influence in his partner movements ,because they
> dance in a very old way.-
> If you find relation between the early Tango Argentino and your theory,

you

> can come here -Buenos Aires- and teach Ballroom to help us to know our
> roots.
> The last partner (other one)-Carmen Calderon- alive today....ask about

your

> discovering.-
> Ruben Terbalca
> N.: some friendly people ask me to write for the list about several
> subjects. Now you can see what happens...

Thanks Ruben,
The dance scenes in Tango, apart from Cachafaz' short exhibition dance, show
people dancing very simply, a few inches apart, in a natural non-ballroom
style embrace with various head/arm positions. Not at all canyenque and
certainly not close embrace. In at least one instance the follower crosses
(I was looking specifically for this because I've always wondered when the
cross was introduced). 'Tango' was the first 'talkie' made in Argentina;
very little dancing is shown but fabulous music, with the orchestras of
Filiberto, Maffia, Fresedo, Donato and Ponzio, vocalists Libertad Lamarque,
Mercedes Simone, Tita Merello, Azucena Maizani, and others. It was released
in 1933, but filmed a year or so earlier.
This film is not for those of you fussy about sound or picture quality, and
has no English subtitles, but is wonderful nevertheless. If you are
interested, visit www.tangobar-productions.com I wonder if a cleaned up
DVD will be made (how about it, Juan?).

Barbara

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:37:29 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango (sort of)

I write this (maybe out of a constitutional death wish of sorts) with all
respect due to Ruben Carlos Terbalca. And all respect due to someone who was
credibly part of the native tango history from the mid fifties is, in my
book, a lot of respect (always contingent, of course).

If I can rest on a reasonable conviction that I know a little of the true
history of the tango dance from 1950, it is because I have "listened" (also
through the written word but, most importantly, viva voce) to people who I
could see made sense, checked out, etc., and spoke from valid, mostly
first-hand, knowledge. In a few cases I was even able to probe, one-on-one,
for hours on end, and what a feeling that is. As anyone reasonably competent
in fact finding can verify (alas, by going through a whole lot of trouble),
such people, and such occasions, are as rare as they are precious, and even
more rarely available to "gringos" (here: non-locals tout court).

Just getting a plausible date, or sometimes ANY approximate date, for when
claimant X started dancing tango socially turns into a major undertaking,
rarely a successful one. In that respect, Mr Terbalca supplies a date I can
relate to (1956; I became an avid social dancer myself some four years after
that, elsewhere in the world), and place reasonable faith in. None of that
"when I was so many years old, now go find out how old I am, if you dare"
stuff. Not to mention the "when I was 13 years old, back in the forties" (I
am NOT talking about Mr. Terbalca here, at all); and in one extreme case
(that I will pass over out of the great respect that the author of this
amazing milonga deserves for his unsurpassed achievements as a tango dancer
and magister magistrorum) the "when I was seven years old, but I won't tell
you what decade that was" stuff.

By the way, if what I have learnt is not just another sorry delusion, as more
and more historical participants "come clean", dates around that given by Mr.
Terbalca, mostly later, will be seen repeatedly among those of the "Almagro"
persuasion, including (but not limited to) the ones in Ms. Janis Kenyon's "by
invitation only" extremely short list. Many fewer people will be able to
supply a truthful date before 1955, and those will be almost all of other
persuasions. The ones who can convince their approximate contemporaries that
they started in the forties, and were real aficionados, are almost as rare as
self-entitled tango historians who make any sense, or have even a vague
amateur's idea of how history is pieced together from primary sources.

Now a couple of points inspired by Mr. Terbalca's remarks.

First, anyone who is 100 years old in 2003 (and I do not expect to have the
chance to have any exhaustive interviews with even one of the life-long tango
practitioners among them), would be eleven years old in 1914! Any
minimal-standards attempt to reconstitute ANYTHING at all about the Belle
E'poque tango (anywhere in the globe) by going to BAs and interviewing older
men and women who were active social dancers in their youths is destined to
complete and utter failure. (I do not have the numbers for Todaro handy, if I
ever found them, and not that it matters a great deal, but I have the
impression that he was born fin de si`ecle, take or leave a few years.
Actually, my feeling is more like 1910. Please correct me if I am wrong.)

I cannot but add that failure to use such extremely simple and basic tests,
perform such profoundly elementary chronological arithmetic, among people who
want to be heard for their knowledge of tango history, including people who
have acquired a measure of notoriety in such endeavours, does provide some
insight into why absurdity and mush pushes out even minimally reasonable
plausibilities (mere plausibilities, NB) 999 to 1 in accounts originating
over the decades with native narrators (then dutifully repeated by
non-natives, ad infinitum, of course). The numbers are a bit less
discouraging these days when it comes to the history of musical genre, and
they just recently started improving. Still, most of what one can find is not
really history but undigested and (for me) tiresome trivia. Trivia is not
history, not even enlightening historical anecdote, but it is a start. Let us
hope. Yet, thus far I have not been able to find a (musically and
historically) competent account of the critical 1920 historical juncture, the
birth of the classical tango genre, the really original. In fact, I have not
yet seen anyone so much as characterising the Guardia Nueva as a genre (in
fact set of genres) in a really satisfactory way. (Or the Guarda Vieja, for
that matter, by a Portenno writer/speaker, though that one is a cinch.) If
such accounts/analyses exist, they must be fairly recent and, if so, hurrah!

Next, the evidence drawn on by Richard Powers (among very few others) exists.
As pointed out by recent discussants, some of it is even available on line.
The evidence may be interpreted this way and that, but dismissing it is not
allowed. I am very happy to see that a startling number of newer participants
in these Tango-L discussions (unfortunately still dominated by a monolithic,
ever self-repeating, mass of stale conviction) have taken the trouble to
inform themselves better, and are saying wise things, maybe raising the hope
that nonsense and mush will some day be crowded out, rather than the current
vice-versa.

One step further, the tendency to dismiss altogether the thing for which we
have concrete (if controversial) evidence on grounds that it is "adulterated"
product as compared with the real McCoy, for which the dismisser is unwilling
or incapable of supplying any concrete evidence whatsoever, cannot be
condoned by anyone expecting a dash of honest scholarship. An archetype for
this "nothing is better than something", "ultra-patriotic" approach is
afforded by essays on the matter by Lidia Ferrari. If we are to learn
anything real about how things were way back then, the first thing to do is
to eschew a primarily ideological approach lock, stock, and barrel. Are there
any (dance,cultural, etc) historians of the caliber of Richard Powers or the
late Simon Collier doing real research on the dance, rather than dismissive
ideological "propaganda"? (In Argentina or elsewhere?) I have been looking in
my spare time. Not much luck thus far. Please help. (Yet, again, even in this
Tango-L, a minority of discussants on the topic, newer ones, are coming to
very sensible conclusions.)

Now a word on agreement and disagreement. I am sure that Mr. Terbalca will
not take amiss the fact that we do not have identical opinions ... though I
hope both of us are realistic enough to know that all opinion is highly
perishable, and that to toss out the rot is an honorable thing to do. (Some
people think it is a shameful thing to do, and that is a "shame". )

Unfortunately, in some tango circles, an odd intolerance for dissent
manifests itself quite frequently, and quite dramatically. Someone cannot
just disagree: one who does, however eloquently, is an "enemy", a "monster"
whose "attacks" must be returned. I would like to suggest that those who are
careful about finding a foundation for their opinions may at times see the
need to argue strenuously, even to the point of spoofing nonsense that
refuses to be dislodged by gentler methods upon repeated attempts (spoofing
the IDEAS, not the people who express them); but one who resorts to
unprovoked personal insult, or other ad hominem "argumentation", or threats,
or worse, must be much less confident of his opinion ... perhaps for a good
reason. I have seen a bit of this recently on the Tango-L. It reminded me of
times when it has been far worse.

Cheers,

Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:28:28 -0400
From: sharon gates <sharon7301@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango (sort of)

UmVnYXJkaW5nIG5lYXJseSAxMDAgeWVhciB5b3VuZyBDYXJtZW5jaXRhLCBJIHN1Z2dlc3Qg
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Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:54:49 -0400
From: Sergio <Cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Ballroom and Argentine Tango II - Canyengue

Tango as danced in Buenos Aires before WWI was somewhat different from the
Salon style danced nowadays.

There is a word that is used in modern times to refer to the prevalent style
of dancing then - 'Canyengue'.

Canyengue : According to Jose Gobello means, Arrabalero the baja condicion
social. (periphery dweller, of low social condition).

: Gathering where peripherical dwellers dance.

: Musical rhythmic effect from the base obtained
hitting the cords with the hand and the arch.

En Quimbundo (Western African language) KA-llengue : name of an African
dance.

Eduardo Stilman asserts that this word means 'tired-like' in the same
African language. A reference to the way the compadritos danced simulating
certain indifference and tired feeling frequently using the left hand in the
pocket.

Rolando Laguarda Frias adds the African meaning of : useless. A reference to
peripherical dwellers as worthless people.

This word was finally accepted in reference to the tango as danced at the
beginning of the century.

***It is important to remember that tango as music and dance has been
evolving, changing. The spirit of the dance is one of freedom and
improvisation. This causes that there are as many dance forms as dancers.
Every one has his own style, dances in a different way a product of his
personality. Some ways of dancing are more frequent than others. Some moves
come to fashion and then they almost disappear.

I say *almost* disappear because they are always present in some corner of
the city.
Canyengue is still danced by some people in some tango circles. Luis
Grondona and Marta are teachers of this style for instance, just to give an
example.

Canyengue - The embrace is very close and apilado from the waist up. There
is a marked flexion of the knees. The lady stands about 10' apart from the
man and leans forward placing her chest against the chest of the man. Her
left arm around his neck all the way to the other side (his left shoulder).
The posture of the man is opened somewhat to his left, he places his right
nipple on her chest bone.
The dance is vivacious, humorous, rhythmic with frequent syncopations. There
is the cross for the lady that is led by the man. The steps are short.
The turns were done in different ways without sacadas. Either walking around
the woman with very small steps of using 'la cunita' or 'la calesita'. This
last one was done with the lady doing small steps as the man does rather
than pivoting on her right foot.

Will continue.


This way of dancing was perfect for the original tango written in 2x4
rhythm. Example Orquestras 'Los Tubatango' - 'Los Muchachos de Antes' - It
was also danced to Canaro and D'Arienzo.

Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:32:05 +0200
From: Joaquin Concha <j.concha@WEBMAIL.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine Tango II - Canyengue

On Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:54:49 -0400 Sergio (Cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET)
wrote:

>Canyengue - The embrace is very close and apilado from the waist up.

There

>is a marked flexion of the knees. The lady stands about 10' apart

from the

>man and leans forward placing her chest against the chest of the man.

Her

>left arm around his neck all the way to the other side (his left

shoulder).

>The posture of the man is opened somewhat to his left, he places his

right

>nipple on her chest bone.
>The dance is vivacious, humorous, rhythmic with frequent

syncopations. There

>is the cross for the lady that is led by the man. The steps are

short.

>The turns were done in different ways without sacadas. Either walking

around

>the woman with very small steps of using 'la cunita' or 'la

calesita'. This

>last one was done with the lady doing small steps as the man does

rather

>than pivoting on her right foot.
>

I have seen the late Rodolfo Cieri dance canyengue with Maria Cieri,
and I do not believe that she ever held her "left arm around his neck
all the way to the other side (his left shoulder)".

Just because one couple does it one way, it does not mean that's "the"
way to dance it or "the" way it was danced back then.

My point is that written words are not the 100% accurate proof of how
the "real" tango was danced in Argentina in its early years. The only
positive proof that I can believe is video footage, which obviously
does not exist.

If you attend an international dance competition in Europe, from
whatever ballroom dance organization, which now have Argentine Tango
events, and you watch those couples dance, you can easily see and say
that what they are dancing is not real, not authentic argentine tango.
You don't need to read any books to know it. You don't need to study
Richard Powers research papers. You don't need to go the Library of
Congress. You look and you know.

That's my two centavitos on this subject.

J.Concha.
LOOK GOOD, FEEL GOOD - WWW.HEALTHIEST.CO.ZA

Cool Connection, Cool Price, Internet Access for R59 monthly @ WebMail
https://www.webmail.co.za/dialup/

Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:49:10 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango (sort of)

This starts at the movie list just supplied by Mr. Suppa, and goes on to
other issues of source materials. I will greatly appreciate any help on
locating the items mentioned.

Like several others that I have found before on line, Mr. Suppa's list is
interesting. Certainly, film (best, candid social dancing footage) is where
one would find the "black on white" (or full colour) evidence of how the
dance evolved from fairly early in the 20th century. Commercial films have
obvious drawbacks as source material, but they are, when viewed by the right
eyes, infinitely better than nothing. Just like vintage dance manuals: they
give you something, and scholars have made good use of them to get a handle
on dancing going back centuries. Nothing will give you the effect of being
there then. So commercial film evidence cannot be dismissed, either.

I am told that it is possible (now) to find some of these films, but I do not
know where. I would appreciate any information on this. Even better, on
footage of social dancing that I am told exists, but I do not know how to get
a hold of. (I have seen a number of the well known examples from the mid
1980's on and, yes, much better than nothing. I always learned something,
even from hearing Mr. Gobelo, whom I would go to any time for Lunfardo
expertise, if I needed it, expatiate on how, one generation at a time,
gauchos begot compadrones, and the latter begot compadritos, who then begot
tango dancing. No time to tell what exactly I did learn.)

Any help locating vintage social dancing footage would be wonderful.

More importantly, I am not a historian, or any kind of tango scholar, and I
have no intention of trying to become one. I am just one used to reading good
scholarship, and recognise, to a good enough extent, what does and does not
qualify. So, what I would much rather have is the results of a bona fide
historian's study and analysis of primary and other sources that paints a
concrete picture of the historical curve (or any part of it). For example
(not by the way of limitation) when did this or that choreographic element
come into use / fashion, what kind of idiom/s might have been used where /
when, rhythmic interpretation, and, yes, hold / attitude, and other more
"stylistic" parameters. (But not mush. Or bs.)

Question (and I assure everyone, not a rhetorical one, by any means), do we
have anything like that? Not a long bibliography, just ONE or a couple of
books or substantial journal articles responding to the description above?
(Subject matter: DANCE, not other aspects of the tango culture.) And,
question, how can one find it / consult it? My prior sporadic efforts,
through my own fault, I am sure, have failed to produce anything in any way
resembling what I am looking for. For un-chronological, vague, confused,
aimless guessing, etc, I have plenty already, thank you. Tango-L alone will
suffice.

Let me re-iterate, I would like nothing better than an essay, bearing on any
shorter or longer period, including the very recent past or the present,
hopefully something far better than what I could do myself if I had the time,
that is as concrete as those maligned vintage manuals (I may as well tell
you, I have a hell of a time trying to interpret what they say, but I will
live with THAT); that also tells me where the conclusions stated come from,
and how. For instance, that cites some of the presumable mass of film
material depicting tango dancing, whether in Mr. Suppa's list or not. I do
not ask for much: meaningful, concrete, plausible, conclusions that can be
traced to some shred of evidence and cannot be readily dismissed, e.g., by
some simple arithmetic, or by well know facts.

I have similar comments and a similar request concerning Mr. Suppa's
bibliography (again, one of several interesting ones that I have seen, and
used) and the one aspect of the history of the tango musical genres that I am
most interested in, to wit, the birth of the classical genre/s (aka, Guardia
Nueva) circa 1920 ... in my view, the real birth of tango as a unique musical
phenomenon. Some other time, perhaps. For now, I will be extremely happy to
get my hands on just that one best scholarly reference work on tango, the
DANCE.

Thank you-all in advance for any information,

PS - I am curious to know what those dates after the film titles are in Mr.
Suppa's list. They must have a meaning, perhaps in the context of a web site
from which the list may have been obtained, but they certainly cannot be
production or release dates. Mr. Suppa, can you clarify? Thank you.

PS2 - I can find any number of non-Argentinean vintage manuals, on-line and
in libraries. A tanguera friend and myself have been trying for a while to
locate Nicanor Lima's manual. For some reason we have had no success. Any
help?

Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:08:16 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango

Barbara Garvey has written, in response to the earlier question "So which
came first? Would it be presumptuous of me to say International Ballroom
Tango copied the original tango from Argentina? That Argentine
tango evolved but not IBT?":

> Lo dudo. My impression from lots of reading and talking to historians like

Ruben Terbalca, is that the early tango was similar to what we now call
canyengue, but that as it was danced in more elegant places like, perhaps,
prosperous brothels, on wood or tile floors, it became smoother. There are
lots of photos ... where it kept changing little by little but maintained a
more spontaneous and improvized flavor that International and American style
tango lost, or never had. I think the tango embraced (!) by the dreaded tango
'Purists" (like me) goes back not much farther than the late '30s and '40s.
This is all speculation. <

Well, hardly anything that can be said in old tango history is completely
free of speculation, but I think most of Barbara's statement is quite
plausible and, as speculation goes, intelligent speculation.

Before raising a couple of reservations, the original question can be fixed
to make a quite reasonable statement. All ... we need is to replace
"International Ballroom Tango" with "Belle E'poque tango (Euro-North
American, ex-patriate)"; "copied" with "adopted and adapted"; "the original
tango from Argentina" with "one tango dialect practiced in Argentina at the
time (19-teens)"; and "but not IBT" with "dramatically through the decades
since then, while a stereotyped (and a touch ridiculous) version of Belle
E'poque tango ... was virtually frozen by the English ballroom dancing
establishment in the early to mid 20th century, remaining largely
evolution-free to this date."

True, nothing much seems to be left of the original, but there is a grain of
truth in it. As Richard Lipkin, the famous New York tango DJ (among many
other things) has shown me, pretty much the same has happened to the samba.
The way the "standard style" competitors dance it today reflects pretty
strongly the way commercial movies made between the wars depict ordinary
people dancing the samba. The case of tango is more complicated (had to be!),
but probably basically the same idea. I need to look at those old movies ...
for the details.

In the seventies, I ran for the first time (on USA TV) into a program showing
these strange aliens in tails and horrendous make up "dancing" to something
rather worse than Werner Mueller aka Ricardo Santo's ... tango. Certainly it
took me only 5 seconds, plus the time required to recover from the shock, to
realize that this could not be any kind of authentic tango. Whoever has made
that point is obviously right, but it is something altogether different to
say that the same choreography danced with a more reasonable form would also
be obviously "wrong". If it appeared so, in the sense of not being possibly
Argentine, ever, I believe the one "wrong" would be the judge. I offer Miguel
Zotto's choreography for "La Cumparsita" (seen in the "Tango Argentino"
revival) as an sneaky argument.

So, first reservation, I would need similar (but not so pervasive ...) fixes
in Barbara's posting.

Another reservation (more precisely, doubt) pertains to the word canyengue.
What was its meaning back then, and when was it in use as applied to tango? I
tend to believe that it denoted an attitude (rather than any particular
idiom), a "style" in the sense of form. (A word almost of the same kind as
"cool".) Arquimbau adds ... a way of walking ... with a swagger. That it
connoted both arrabal / orilla and low class in other contexts all makes
sense together. And I believed it was, in the tango usage, a thing of the
twenties, after tango (as music!) became almost respectable. But I may well
have this wrong. It is surely ascertainable. But I am skeptical about any
dichotomy canyengue-liso as describing, say, the world of tango in 1912 from
a coeval point of view. I cannot shake the impression that this is a recent
invention. Ready to be proven wrong.

On the other hand, from what I have heard several who were there say, there
was / were [an]old way/s of dancing the tango seen in milongas as late as the
late fifties danced by a minority, mostly older people. Let us call it
"antique", as opposed to the classical idiom (whether more arrabalero, or
less) that became dominant as the "golden (dance) era" came to its high
point. This/these was/were the way/s of the parents of the old masters of
today (and it was most assuredly not "apilado", "milonguero", "Almagro", or
whatever anyone wants to call it, or forbid it from being called. (I think
all of this terminological stonewalling is very dumb, but what can I do.)

I cannot shake the impression that the "antique" that is being captured by
those who experiment in such things is this "u'ltimo antes del del 40". When
this is called canyengue, it cannot be the same as any tango de barrio in
1912, when the music was still something that we might call slow milonga
today. (Habanera would be better.) Not even the stiff English dance masters
can keep things quiet so long. So I think the word canyengue is just being
bandied about to designate all kinds of different things, including a
completely mythical idiom that would fill all the time and a lot of the space
back from 1940 to ... take your pick, but I have seen "to the beginning, in
the 1880's".

I may be wrong. But one thing is certain: Pizarro, Grondona, Arquimbau,
Cieri, could not think of canyengue as something in the nineteen teens that
they were trying to reconstruct (and I believe none of them does/did). There
is no tango footage from back then, I am quite sure; and people born circa
1900 alive and kicking to the tango of their youths have been rather scarce
for some time now.

I believe the gentlemen were trying to remember, and codifying as best they
could (with neither totally divergent, nor parallel results) what they saw
the older folks, e.g., their parents, do when they were young tango dancers.

Many other thoughts come to mind, e.g., about what "cleaning up" the tango
might have meant in various contexts back then; what kind of "denaturing" of
the tango Viejo Tanguero may have been so upset about; what was so
"disreputable" about those who invented and practiced the tango before it
became a thing for society balls, the Armenonville and Lo de Laura; the
suggested return of the tango back from Europe, etc. But I will stop here. I
think things will be helped better by going hard on skepticism, and easy on
personal theories and imaginative plots out of whole cloth.

Cheers,

Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:34:47 -0400
From: Sergio <Cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Ballroom and Argentine tango IV

The other dances at the end of the nineteenth century : quadrilles,
contradances, round dances, the German. had an aristocratic appearance
suitable to be done by the nobility and the very rich. They were danced in
an elegant erect position. Some of the other ballroom dances were
developing at the same time as tango. The USA accepted that the Europeans
were more cultivated and elegant when it came to dancing and tried to
imitate them. The American school became eventually totally independent in
its evolution adopting the best from every possible area.
The Viennese Waltz, the Polka, the Fox-Trot, Quick Step, Charleston, etc.
were evolving at the same time as the tango.
Some dances were symmetrical, the lady and the man executed the same moves
one the mirror of the other. The dance was done to a steady beat. They had a
combination of quick and slow steps that were related in a certain sequence.
There was counting of the steps to memorize.
There were only about 8 or ten figures for each dance. This figures were
repeated again and again in a certain order. To do too many of the same
dance could be boring so they danced one or two of each mixed with the
other. There was interest in the upper body rather than in the legs.
The dances were executed to have fun.

The Argentinean Tango on the other hand was rather asymmetrical, the man
executed some steps while leading the lady to do some different moves. The
steps did not have a totally steady rhythm, the dancer had some freedom to
step according to his interpretation of the music.
There was no set pattern of moves, the dance was improvised. There was
nothing to count. It had hundreds of possible moves. Many tangos could be
danced together because they were all different. There was interest in the
legs as well as in the upper body.
The dances were executed to obtain certain communication and feeling with
the partner rather than for fun.

The original Argentine Tango suffered progressive transformations to make it
like the other dances. Those change became standardized in Europe and in
North America.

It is danced more erect, a bend of the knees was kept. The upper body is
separated, the partners do not look to each other they look in opposite
direction. It is danced to a steady beat in a regular sequence of
Slow-Slow-Quick-Quick-Slow with some variations. The head acquired sudden
jerky movements.
The original Argentinean music was modified to obtain a more steady marching
rhythm. This march like music was more prominent in Germany and in Finland
that originally copied it from Germany. Separation of the partners was
introduced in the USA to conform to the general American Style.

The original Argentine Tango was also changing in Argentina...but this is
another story.

Somebody said that the American Tango is like when the couple just met,
everything is thoughtful, neat, perfect.

The Argentine Tango is like when they are hot with each other, full of
passion.

The International Tango is like when everything is over but they are staying
together for the sake of the children. :))

Till next time.

Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:13:12 -0700
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango IV

> Somebody said that the American Tango is like when the couple just met,
> everything is thoughtful, neat, perfect.
>
> The Argentine Tango is like when they are hot with each other, full of
> passion.
>
> The International Tango is like when everything is over but they are

staying

> together for the sake of the children. :))

Hi, Sergio et al.
I was the one who compared the 3 types of tango at a marriage like this, in
1985: American tango is when a couple is on their honeymoon -- it's
romantic and sexy with both on their best behaviour. Argentine tango is the
whole of the relationship, with all the passion, pain, sorrow, joy, anger,
humor, of real life. International tango is when the couple can't stand each
other and stay together just for the sake of the children.
Barbara

Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:04:22 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango IV

Sergio Suppa wrote:

>>Somebody said that the American Tango is like when the couple just met,
>>everything is thoughtful, neat, perfect.
>
>>The Argentine Tango is like when they are hot with each other, full of
>>passion.
>
>>The International Tango is like when everything is over but they are
>>staying together for the sake of the children. :))

Barbara Garvey replied:

>I was the one who compared the 3 types of tango ... in 1985:

>American tango is when a couple is on their honeymoon -- it's
>romantic and sexy with both on their best behaviour.

>Argentine tango is the whole of the relationship, with all the
>passion, pain, sorrow, joy, anger, humor, of real life.

>International tango is when the couple can't stand each
>other and stay together just for the sake of the children.

A version of Barbara's comments were printed in an article about Argentine
tango in Smithsonian magazine in October or November 1993. Of course,
offering so much insight and being so quotable, her comments have passed
into the lore of Argentine tango.

The pictures with the article are interesting themselves. They show
Miguel Zotto teaching a very young Andrea Misse and Gabriel Misse.

With best regards,
Steve






Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Sent by: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
<TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
06/11/2003 01:13 PM
Please respond to Barbara Garvey


To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Ballroom and Argentine tango IV

Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:28:44 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine Tango II - Canyengue

<I have seen the late Rodolfo Cieri dance canyengue with Maria Cieri,
and I do not believe that she ever held her "left arm around his neck
all the way to the other side (his left shoulder)".

Just because one couple does it one way, it does not mean that's "the"
way to dance it or "the" way it was danced back then.

My point is that written words are not the 100% accurate proof of how
the "real" tango was danced in Argentina in its early years. The only
positive proof that I can believe is video footage, which obviously
does not exist.>


The SoloTango Videos "Asi se Baila Canyengue" by Luis Grondona and Marta
Antoine offer an interesting but short interview of how Canyengue was danced
in Luis childhood. Luis mentions that the Canyengue style he dances with
Marta is the one from his childhood. He goes on to say that Canyengue was
danced by (drivers) and there was nothing wrong that after their work in
transporting shipments of milk they walk into the dance wearing their work
clothes -- a hat, alpargatas (shoes), faja, and some even went on to dance
with a knive (facon) in their backs. Subsequently, the Canyengue became
refined by men dancing it in better clothes.

This description seems to correlate the one (Spanish only) given by Ana
Cristina Misenta
https://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:xboz5jhZftgJ:www.comolacigarra.com.ar/lo">=cache:xboz5jhZftgJ:www.comolacigarra.com.ar/lo">https://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:xboz5jhZftgJ:www.comolacigarra.com.ar/lo
s_inicios.htm+donde+nacio+el+tango&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 she says that the majority
of tango dancers and those who gained a good reputation as tango dancers
were (drivers).

The first video offer a presentation of two couples including Luis and Marta
dancing on a small stage to a Tango by Francisco Canaro "Colombina" (1931).
One can appreciate two very different syles of Canyengue. Both couples have
the hold namely with the position of the woman's left arm around the man.

The music without doubt has the Canyengue rythm including three early tangos
difficult to find -- El Flete and Merza Burrera by Francisco Canaro and La
Viruta by Orchestra de Alessandro.

I had the opportunity to attend a workshop on Tango Canyengue by Miguel
Angel Pla (artistic name) two years ago and he taught the woman's left arm
around the man and at least three ways to hold the woman's right arm.

Regards,

Bruno

Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:08:23 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango (sort of)

Sharon Gates, a few days back ...

> Regarding nearly 100 year young Carmencita, I suggest that instead of

worrying about what she may say, just watch the videos of her dancing with
Juan Averna (?) in recent years. If you watch closely, you will see that all
her walking steps are nothing but "molinete", i.e. back cross foloowed by
front cross followed by back cross, and so on, even as they are advancing
directly forward or backward, not just in a circle. That looks to me like
"nuevo tango", which teaches women that their walking is precisely that -
front and back crosses. And of course, Carmencita throws a few boleos and
adornos in between. So, what does this mean? Either Carmencita changed her
dancing to the "nuevo tango" style, or "nuevo tango" is just a way to
explain/teach the real, authentic Argentine Tango from the 1920s to modern
days. And maybe, just maybe, the so-called "close-embrace" tango is a
relatively new thing, a marketing gimmick, to teach people who can't learn
the real thing. <

A formating problem did not allow me to see the above until I re-visited the
archive today.

I have seen some of the Carmencita footage and yes, she does mix front and
back passes (crosses), and opens, as led by the man, and executes rather
simple and cute embellishments. One reason for this is that good followers
follow what is led. More importantly, once one categorizes steps in this way
(and adds closes, including crossed ones, to really complete the picture)
there is nothing else, significantly, that either of the dancers can do
"step-wise".

About the statement (rephrased) that tango "nouveau" may just be a way of
thinking about or describing the classical tango ... yes, I believe that that
is what it was at first, and that intention was even explicitly stated by the
principals. Further, the "nouveau" pioneers were obviously not the first to
notice and explore the "syntactic" regularities of the tango del 40; but
there is little doubt that they did a rather more thorough and systematic job
of it than was done ever before.

For that and other reasons, until recently I did not see any need to view
"nouveau" as anything in any major way distinguishable from the classical
tango del 40; just a personal variant, almost. But in time, this sub-culture
did produce something in the nature of a new dialect, with a following, a
social expression, a personality. So, like it or not, there is this. One can
play nomenclature games about it too, even if one recognises OK, there is
something different here. I pass.

To cut this short, the Carmencita footage, through the description given or
my own eyes, does not support the conclusions that tango is one pretty much
invariable thing from 1920 to today, or that the "close embrace" (this one,
yes, is a bad, bad name) is a market ploy to sell short-cut instruction. The
reasons have to do with something along the lines of logic, but I will excuse
myself from further details. Now, it is possible, though highly unlikely,
that the avid social dancers were doing turns with sacadas, apilados or not,
or mere back ochos, in 1920. It is also possible, though even more unlikely
that the ... er ... "close embrace" (the whole "true milonguero" culture) is
some bad sort's evil ploy. Everything is possible in the world of tango. But
Carmencita better not be blamed for such ideas.

A propos, Mr. Grondona's canyengue. There are some well considered doubts
afloat concerning whether what is on those Solo Tango tapes re-constitutes a
social dance tradition approximately. But, that aside, why should it be
called "cayengue"? Well there may be very good reasons, I just do not know
any of them. Also, if canyengue is something going back to before WWI, shall
I yet once again perform the needed arithmetic to reveal the chasm between
that and something like my childhood years? (I am younger than the viejos
milongueros, but not by much.) Finally, what is canyengue music?

Cheers,

Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:59:18 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango (sort of)

<A propos, Mr. Grondona's canyengue. There are some well considered doubts
afloat concerning whether what is on those Solo Tango tapes re-constitutes a
social dance tradition approximately. But, that aside, why should it be
called "cayengue"? Well there may be very good reasons, I just do not know
any of them. Also, if canyengue is something going back to before WWI, shall
I yet once again perform the needed arithmetic to reveal the chasm between
that and something like my childhood years? (I am younger than the viejos
milongueros, but not by much.) Finally, what is canyengue music?>

The videos are a starting point is not the answer to all the questions.
Tango Canyengue is not danced socially anymore one may choose to dance
Canyengue to other Tango music. Even if the coreography is mastered you have
to work with the music until it all clicks in. I can only offer my
perspective from a student point of view and therefore offer suggestions.

There were other words of african extraction (The Bantu had linguistic
influence)
Bordellos were called quilombos (kilombos) at one time (These places were
crowded and loud?)
Beatiful women were called minas or it is worth a mina (the black women who
arrived in Buenos Aires looked like godessess)
Canyengue is also called the son of the milonga (Because it has a taste of
milonga)
Why Canyengue and not something else? (Canyengue also means to walk
rhythmically)


There may be common truths, I think, about what constitutes Canyengue:

Truth 1:
....con la cadera (para bailar Canyengue) sino .........no es Canyengue!
With the hips....otherwise is not Canyengue.


Like in Tango in general to appreciate Canyengue and its meaning one has to
explore its music since not all Canyengue music is infectious.

Truth 2:

The style of dance in Tango appears not to come from executing predetermined
steps, nor from playing the music, but from the soul of the dancer.

You may find Canyengue in the music of Roberto Firpo (Sabado Ingles, El Tio
Soltero, El Cencerro, others), Francisco Canaro(Lorenzo, Pampa, Retintin, El
Chamuyo, others), Jaun Maglio Pacho (Milonguero Viejo, Amurado, Una Noche de
Garufa, others), Osvaldo Fresedo (El Entrerriano, Milonguero Viejo, Una
Noche de Garufa, others), Cuarteto Tipico Los Ases (Julian, others),
Cuarteto de Punta y Taco (A su Memoria, Farol Apagado, others), Arturo
Bernstein (El Apache Porten~o), Cuarteto Palais de Glace, Juan Cambareri(El
Taita, others), Edgardo Donato (several), etc.


Regards,

Bruno

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:46:16 -0400
From: Sergio <Cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Ballroom and Argentine tango V

Frank G. Williams says:

"The notion
that historical Argentine tango may have resembled current 'ballroom' tango
is disquieting to some. I am not attracted to nor dance 'ballroom' tango,
but to my eye, the rigidity of that dance at least suits the march-like
quality of the music to which it's performed! Yet, it is my perception that
ballroom tango hasn't changed much during my life. I consider it stagnant."

When you see a lady wearing a kimono walking the streets of an imaginary
city in any place on the universe and somebody tells you the kimono is the
original North American attire. When you see a man eating with sticks and
somebody tell you "this is the way the colonial Americans ate". When you see
a group of men dancing together in line to Greek music and somebody tells
you this is the way the Americans used to dance. You know that the
possibility of any of those assertions to be true is close to cero. This is
so because you know your own culture, you know other cultures to compare to,
you have experiences and read about them.
The same way I can assure you that the International and the American Tangos
were *never danced in Argentina, they are foreign variations of the original
Argentine tango. A popular dance like tango reflects the popular art of a
nation, its personality is expressed in it. Those foreign tango variations
have nothing in common with the Argentinean self. If I had to say what
influences that sort of tango suffered to become what it is today, I would
say British and Anglo-Saxon American influences.

I like and dance Argentine tango and American tango for I like them both. I
think that the American Tango has a beautiful choreography and a strong
aesthetic expression.

" Frank further notes that in his opinion Ballroom dances are stagnant".

Dancing is a human art expression, the same as the other artistic forms, the
same in other sphere of human expression, as the language.

These human expressions are in continuous evolution, they change eternally.
There is no force that can stop that.
The more cruel dictators tried to forbid an artistic expression, an art
form, a language to be spoken the stronger they became.

I will continue. Tango is evolving now the same as Fox-Trot or Swing.... My
opinion is no law.

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:51:24 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango V

Sergio,

You have mis-quoted:

" Frank further notes that in his opinion Ballroom dances are stagnant".

No. My stated opinion was specific to (American) ballroom tango. Other
dances that have been more recently adopted for ballroom competitions seem
to contribute considerably to the vitality of that scene. Ballroom tango is
not my cup of tea. If you like tango partners who emulate hypnotized birds
then, by all means, you kids knock yourselves out! Dance however you
please!

All I'm saying is that, concerning dance in general, a) change is good
because it validates the past b) historical authenticity ain't no easy call
in social dance, where choreography or other documentation is scarce, and c)
following one's true inspiration is where it's at.


Cheers,

Frank - Mpls.

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:39:46 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango V

Sergio wrote:

>The same way I can assure you that the International and
>the American Tangos were *never danced in Argentina, they
>are foreign variations of the original Argentine tango.

Sergio's comments make complete sense to me.

I have looked a several visual records of tango dance history:

1) La Historia del Tango (a 1949 movie produced in Buenos Aires that
purports to show the history of tango including its early forms)
2) A recently produced video of Victor Romero and Norma Galla dancing
orillero
3) Canyengue as presented by Rueben Terbalca (in person)
4) Canyengue as danced by Luis Grodona (on video)

Looking at these sources, none of which is an actual visual record dancing
from the early 1900s, I find a strong correlation in styles and no
evidence of anything that resembles ballroom tango.

Because ballroom tango is so foreign to the Argentine culture of the early
1900s as we understand it, I find it difficult to envision how ballroom
tango could have developed first and then evolved into any of the dances
that Argentines see as early forms of tango UNLESS one is prepared to
claim that either tango originated in Europe and was changed when it
arrived in Argentina, or that it was invented by the Argentine aristocracy
and then taken over by the lower classes.

How can we explain Richard Powers findings?
One possibility is that the manual Richard used reconstruct the tango of
1914 might have represented a subset of the steps in the original dance or
a refined "Europeanized" variant of the dance. Another possibility is
that the steps of the foreign variants had a sufficient similarity to the
original tango of the early 1900s that someone reconstructing the dance
from a manual could come up with a dance that bore a great deal of
similarity to ballroom tango (particularly if that is what he expected to
find).

What Richard Powers' work does demonstrate, however, is that the ballroom
tango of today is substantially similar to what can be reconstructed from
a manual written in 1914, and that suggests ballroom tango may not have
changed much since then. That should not be too surprising. Ballroom
tango was split off from the main body of the dance and codified. Codified
dances tend to evolve less than those that have not been, and there seems
to be a phenomenon in language that pockets of dialect that have broken
off from the main body of the mother language evolve more slowly.

With best regards,
Steve

Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/

Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:25:19 -0400
From: Sergio <Cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Ballroom and Argentine tango VI

I totally agree with Stephen Brown. There is a strong tendency for human
artistic expression to vary mostly due to distance and isolation but also
due to a natural tendency. We will have multiple forms of a dance, an art or
a language unless it is standardized and imposed artificially.

I quote from Ballroom history (Rick Benjamin Paragon)
"Our great-grandparents simply loved to dance to ragtime music. In fact, the
high-water mark of popularity for ragtime coincided with the fabled "Dance
Craze" of the 1910s. During this period the link between dancing and popular
music became stronger than ever before, and more than a hundred new steps
appeared between just 1912 and 1914. It was no longer enough to just sing,
play, or sit and listen to a piece of music; for a tune to be a big "hit,"
you had to be able to dance to it. "

It says that more than a hundred new steps appeared between just 1912 and
1914. Sounds familiar? The more I read about other dances the more I realize
how they originated and evolved in similar ways.
I could expand on this concept but I really want to concentrate in change,
variation and evolution.

Let's take art for instance throughout history it had different schools with
similar characteristics which despite resistance from the establishment
changed and became different.
Let's observe 19th century Europe: We have Romanticism - Neo-classicism -
Realism - Pre-Raphaelitism - Impressionism - Neo-Impressionism -
Pointillism - Symbolism - Art Nuveau, etc.; the same happened during the
20th century Fauvism, expressionism, etc., etc. These changes occur to
adjust to other socio-economical and political changes which in turn
influence the human psyches.

Let's follow by car the north Mediterranean coast of Europe for a while
where the language varies every few miles.
We start in Portuguese land (Portuguese), into Andalusian Spain (Andaluz, a
modified Castilian), Valencia (Valencian language), Catalonia (Catalonian)
spoken on the other side of the Pyrenees in France as well, then in France
Provencal, Genoa and Piermont with their own dialects, in Italy etc. etc.
to mention just a few.

Latin originated all these languages. It is said that Latin is a "dead
language" IMO this is not true for it lives in all the Romance Languages
(Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italian, Romanian) and all their dialects as
well as in English, a Germanic language with most of its vocabulary being
Latin due to Roman and Norman conquests of England.

The standardization is applied by the Webster Dictionary or the Royal
Spanish Academy of Letters, etc. Despite of a national school system there
still will be variations.

I lived the same phenomenon with Country and Western line dances. The
choreography of each line dance varied in the USA every 100 miles apart. I
was part in trying to unify them in a syllabus book in our area.

Tango and the other Ballroom dances have a tendency to evolve an vary. These
variations give rise to other styles (Milonguero, Canyengue, Nuevo), other
dances and at times the loss of one or more of them that fall into oblivion
(Canyengue).

Tango the mother language (Salon) (Latin) originated multiple dialects,
Canyengue - Milonguero, New Tango, Ballroom Tango, finish tango, etc..

It is a language of the soul and a corporeal expression that changes in
every corner of the city and in every neighborhood. it is varying right now.
Andrew may be into something no doubt, we may have to credit him as the
precursor and inventor of a new dialect or a new language.
Good job!

Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:19:19 +0000
From: ahshol Kahn <kahn44@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: ballroom and Argentine tango

You go to parties and celebrations where there are old people, 80s., 90s.,
they were born in 1913, 1923; people that started dancing tango at age 15
-16 - that brings us to 1928 - 1938, people that at the time they were young
knew and lived with their parents and grandparents who came from Europe at
the end of last century, and saw them dancing tango.
I would say that when they dance, or see somebody dancing old fashion tango
(Canyengue) and tell me that that is the way it was done then, and they all
agree. Then you see Tito Lusiardo or Carlos Gardel doing it the same way in
old movies. You have to be very ignorant to say that this was not that way.
I am using the word ignorant in the good sense of the word if such a sense
exists, meaning that you are excused because you do not know better.

Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:23:04 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine Tango

The title of Carlos Lima's posting <Stephan Brown on Powers> points to the
seeming ridiculousness of amateurs like me, him or Sergio discussing the
history of Argentine tango. I, for one, would certainly bow to the
superior knowledge of either Richard Powers, Rueben Terbalca or the late
Simon Collier, all of whom have studied, written and lectured about the
history of Argentine tango. I would also have to say that many of the
older tango dancers such as Eduardo Arquimbau, Nito Garcia, Luis Grodona
or Mingo Pugliese have a knowledge of the history of tango that is vastly
superior to my own. Of these people, only Reuben Terbalca currently
contributes to Tango-L. Richard Powers did many years ago.

As interested amateurs, what do we do when the oral/visual history given
to us by one set of experts is contradicted by an reconstruction of the
dance that is derived from an old dance manual? Do we accept the
reconstruction as the only evidence, and throw out the evidence provided
by other historians as it seems that Carlos would have us do?

With normal longevity, people who born in the late 1800s and dancing
Argentine by the early 1900s would have still been around in the 1940s,
50s and 60s to demonstrate how tango had been danced in their youth. Young
dancers such as Reuben Terbalca, Nito Garcia, Eduardo Arquimbau, Luis
Grodona, and Mingo Pugliese could have easily seen the vintage dance
performed by such older individuals, who may have been their own
grandparents. In addition, many of the people who were dancing in the
early 1900s would have been available to contribute to films produced in
the 1930s and 1940s--either directly as dancers or indirectly as technical
experts. The Francisco Canaro and Roberto Firpo orchestras appeared in
both the 1932-33 film *Tango* and the 1949 film *La Historia del Tango*.

Carlos would have us throw out this oral and visual history because it was
either passed forward from one set of dancers to another or produced after
the manual was published. Certainly, we must acknowledge the possibility
that the oral/visual history was contaminated by subsequent developments
in Argentine tango and treat it with a grain of salt.

Having known Richard Powers for nearly ten years, I am sure that he did an
honest and exacting job of reconstructing a dance from Nicanor Lima's manual of tango dance steps. But Richard had to extrapolate some in
his work, and some people have questioned how representative the manual
was of the complete dance that existed at the time.

So we are left with questions about authentic representation--but not
honesty--on both side of the debate.

For the most part, the structure and movements in ballroom tango are a
subset of the structure and movements available in today's Argentine
tango. Seeing a relationship between the two dances and imagining the
history doesn't tell us anything about what tango might have been in the
early 1900s.

With best regards,
Steve

Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:29:19 -0700
From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Ballroom and Argentine Tango

The apparent rigidity of Ballroom Tango is due to the elaborate codification promoted by various Ballroom organizations as well as the dancers themselves. I like the improvisational freedom that our Argentine Tango gives me. That is why I prefer it over Ballroom Tango. However, Ballroom Tango can not be called stagnate. Ballroom Tango is what it is because it works so well. Because of this so-called rigidity, people can easily learn it. Once they learn it, they can count on it. Overtime, It has given many people countless hours of pleasure. This is why it continues to exist today and will continue to exist in the future. Not everyone wants to improvise. Not everyone thinks and feels the same as Argentine Tango dancers. To call Ballroom Tango or any other Ballroom dance stagnant is an insult to all those who have learned to do it well. To them it is not stagnant. Ballroom dancers are not stagnant people because there is so much to learn. If one chooses, a Ballroom dancer can continue
learning over a life time. In no way can that be called stagnant. In addition, as they become better dancers, the dancers themselves learn to improvise if they so choose. Often this improvisation becomes accepted practice as such things happen in Argentina Tango. I know of people who do both forms of dancing. It can be hardly be called stagnant when one is learning to do both Ballroom and Argentine Tango at the same time without confusing the two. Ballroom is not all that easy to learn. I challenge all Argentine Tangueros to try it. You may even like it.

Warm Regards
Tango Guy

"Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU> wrote:
Sharon and friends,

"Tango, Baile Nuestro" is very interesting, but it is not gospel nor of much
help in deciphering the relative popularity of the dance variations it
exposes. In my opinion, there is no gospel. As we've been kicking around
on this forum lately, even the historical recollections of those who 'were
there' are likely quite colored by influences we can never understand.
Although my mind is not closed to the possibility that there is a 'true'
tango lineage, those who argue for authenticity (whatever style of tango to
which they adhere) seem suspiciously sales oriented or insecure. The notion
that historical Argentine tango may have resembled current 'ballroom' tango
is disquieting to some. I am not attracted to nor dance 'ballroom' tango,
but to my eye, the rigidity of that dance at least suits the march-like
quality of the music to which it's performed! Yet, it is my perception that
ballroom tango hasn't changed much during my life. I consider it stagnant.


I feel that no dance can avoid stagnation unless it changes. The
'classical' dances are prime examples. The energy of change itself actually
strengthens and legitimizes the original or older forms of movement. For
example, the ballet choreography of Marius Petipa looks quite prosaic in
light of Balanchine, but at one time it was considered innovative, fresh and
energetic - even described as 'rescuing a failing art form' in 19th century
Russia. [ref. https://webserver.rcds.rye.ny.us/id/Dance/danceHLF.html] I
was drawn to Argentine tango because it *felt* like the limits were merely
technical (like ballet), rather than legislated by stylistic codes (like
'ballroom'). That seemed really healthy - great for the head and an
interesting technical study for the body.

You and I and the leading dancers in BA are, at this moment, changing tango.
Reviving or perhaps reinterpreting old forms is, after all, as much a force
of change as inventing new forms. Bringing fantasia (much less cortes and
quebradas) to the milonga or banning it, playing Piazzolla etc. in the
milonga or hating when it is played, even the somewhat petty debates in
which we engage here - all of that *energy of change* vitalizes tango and
ensures it's place as a dance that is truly art. Ultimately, it's healthy
to disagree so much! ;-) Perhaps it seems like a clichi, but the one
uniting concept that seems true to me has been said before: The essence of
tango is not in movement, it is *the feeling* evoked by the music that
inspires the movement. You gotta be in touch with your feelings to make
good art...

Enough for now,

Frank in Minneapolis

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:37:39 -0700
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine Tango

The obvious difficulty in dancing both Ballroom and Argentine Tango is that
the posture and lead of the two dances are totally different. Al and I
experience this last weekend when we attended two events with a former
student of ours. She is an early intermediate dancer and has been doing
quite nicely. Recently, for lack of classes in this area (we have retired
from group classes) she has been taking supposedly AT classes from a local
ballroom dance instructor. Her posture has changed entirely, so that,
observably and according to Al who danced with her, she does not follow a
chest lead because her knees are forward and shoulders back. We feel that we
failed to insist strongly enough on maintaining tango posture regardless of
what another teacher might say.

Anyone who attempts to do both ballroom tango and AT needs to be very clear
about the distinctions in posture and lead. IMHO ballroom and Argentine
tango are completely incompatible in style as well as philosophy.
I find it hard to imagine many people being able to switch from one to the
other on a frequent basis and am naturally suspicious of ballroom dance
instructors claiming to teach AT, unless they have renounced their old ways
and been born again. There are no doubt many exceptions to whom I apologize

This is a separate issue from teaching technique. When we first went to
Buenos Aires in 1987 and until a few years later the best dancers had no
idea how to teach what they did. In the early '90s Graciela Gonzalez was a
pioneer in teaching, working with concepts of bodywork and dance technique
in the context of traditional social tango. I believe that many maestros
gradually learned to teach when they began travelling to the US and Europe.
Nito's early classes were completely unorganized and rather frustrating --
now he is a master teacher. He assiduously watched other teachers, videos,
discussed problems and followed suggestions. Several others who weren't
ready to learn from others have remained poor teachers, but Graciela's
proteges such as Florencia Taccetti, and influence have raised the standards
across the board. I don't believe that this has diirectly to do with
ballroom dancing, but more with the expectations of Northamerican and
perhaps European students who are used to learning a variety of disciplines,
including, for many, ballroom dance.

On the subject of early dance manuals, I tend to agree with Steve that a
written manual is not necessarily the gospel on how tango was danced at any
given time. On the face of it, a written manual is obviously the work of a
professional teacher with an
intellectual approach to dance. Does anyone imagine that the real
milongueros of the early 20th century were into notation? Those now, or
recently, living, including Petroleo, did not write manuals. The only
contemporary written manual that I have actually read are by the Bottomers
in England. I believe that there is also one by Rodolfo Dinzel who has never
danced socially. The Bottomer syllabus bears not the slightest resemblence
to social tango whether one subscribes to the Villa Urquiza school, the
'milonguero' close embrace school or 'club' tango. But if there were no
videos available in the future (perhaps a Weapon of Mass Destruction of the
future wipes out all electonic products but not written matter :-) ),
future generations would conclude that the Bottomers' book represents
Argentine tango in the late 20th century.
Abrazos,
Barbara

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 02:09:27 -0400
From: Nicole Dowell <bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine Tango

Barbara Garvey wrote:

(The obvious difficulty in dancing both Ballroom and Argentine Tango is that the posture and lead of the two dances are totally different.
Anyone who attempts to do both ballroom tango and AT needs to be very clear about the distinctions in posture and lead. IMHO ballroom and Argentine tango are completely incompatible in style as well as philosophy. I find it hard to imagine many people being able to switch from one to the other on a frequent basis and am naturally suspicious of ballroom dance instructors claiming to teach AT, unless they have renounced their old ways and been born again. )

I understand what you are saying Barbara. I am a ballroom teacher, an Argentine Tango teacher and a salsa teacher, and well respected in all of these styles in both the ways that I dance them and in the way I teach them. It is very often that someone makes a poor choice in teachers. Unfortunately many communities don't have the variety and availability of dance studios to be able to find a studio that specializes in certain dances. Many cities ONLY have ballroom studios or the franchise ballroom studios (i.e. Arthur Murrays and Fred Astaires) that are the most well-known and marketed studios, so students choose the studios not realizing that there are just certain dances that you don't want to learn at them. I worked before at an Arthur Murray's studio, and as much as I respect that franchise for what it can produce, most of them you will not find anyone in there that teaches a decent Argentine Tango or Salsa. The problem is, many of these franchise studios have their o
wn syllabus that they create for AT and Salsa (as well as Lindy Hop, West Coast Swing, etc) that are formed from ballroom dances. It's not correct, I know. I've seen these syllabi and have cracked up laughing. Barbara, your friend is likely learning from one of these such types of teachers. Someone who really doesn't know the dance, but has learned the wrong way.

However, I ask that this list does not generalize every ballroom instructor as not knowing how to differientiate from good Argentine Tango and good Ballroom tango. There are good and bad teachers in every dance style. It isn't hard to learn the difference and to dance both styles if you have the right teacher explaining the difference. And actually many benefits come from learning one into the other. Here in Miami alone, we just had one of our best tango dancers demonstrate this in the IDO US Tango Championship. Richard Council is a very talented Argentine Tango dancer who was able to accomplish wonderful style, technique, balance, and musicality in a very short amount of time mainly because of his background in ballroom. And I don't think many people will dispute his elegance as an Argentine Tango dancer.

Nicole
Miami

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:01:48 -0400
From: "Sa, Na-W, Na-C, Na-E, Misc" <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching Ballroom and Argentine Tangos

Barbara Garvey wrote about ballroom teachers who teach Argentine Tango
and wonders about their teaching skills.
I agree with you Barbara. I've seen some ballroom teachers teach AT as if
it was a ballroom dance, NEVER mentioning close embrace or even lining up
buttons to buttons. I laugh at their attempts to teach parada when the
two partners are so far apart. Well, I'm getting my revenge on these
imposters who teach AT.

I've started writing a column for the United States Amateur Ballroom
Dance Association's (USABDA) bi-monthly magazine. My next article is
called "It's Argentine Tango, Stupid" which describes several differences
between American and Argentine Tangos. (The title is a take off of the
Jim Carville's slogan in Bill Clinton's presidential campaign "It's the
economy, stupid.") It will be interesting to see if the editor prints
it.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Counting the days to the NY Tango Festival July 24-27.

Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 00:47:42 -0300
From: Juan Fabbri <JFabbri@TANGOCITY.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching Ballroom and Argentine Tangos

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:53:15 -0700
From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching Ballroom and Argentine Tangos

Michael; It would be a nice idea to solicit other Tango-L subscribers' experience and thoughts about Argentine Tango (AT) as taught by Ballroom teachers. These experiences could then be included in your USABDA article.

One thing everyone needs to keep in mind is that there are many legitimate Ballroom teachers and dance studios who teach AT well and teach it correctly. One of my own AT teachers is also a Ballroom teacher and dancer as well as being a fine advanced AT dancer. There IS fraudulent teaching of AT that unfairly casts a bad light on legitimate Ballroom teachers and studios. But one needs to be careful of accusing anyone of fraud. There is a style of legitimate BT that gets called "Argentine Tango". It is the standard BT with AT-like steps and figures added. (Perhaps this needs to be called Argentine Style Ballroom Tango or something else less confusing. Any suggestions?) In addition, for a long time, before our own Argentine Tango became popular in the US, regular BT was often called "Argentine Tango" to emphasize the Argentine origin of Tango and not to deceive anyone. There is much confusion between these "Argentine Tangos" and fraudulent-hearted teachers are capitalizing on the
current popularity of AT and on the confusion of the general public to make money. Both BT and AT teachers need to make sure their students understand the dangers and the differences so they are protected and not mislead.

Warm Regards
Tango Guy



"Sa, Na-W, Na-C, Na-E, Misc" <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM> wrote:
Barbara Garvey wrote about ballroom teachers who teach Argentine Tango
and wonders about their teaching skills.
I agree with you Barbara. I've seen some ballroom teachers teach AT as if
it was a ballroom dance, NEVER mentioning close embrace or even lining up
buttons to buttons. I laugh at their attempts to teach parada when the
two partners are so far apart. Well, I'm getting my revenge on these
imposters who teach AT.

I've started writing a column for the United States Amateur Ballroom
Dance Association's (USABDA) bi-monthly magazine. My next article is
called "It's Argentine Tango, Stupid" which describes several differences
between American and Argentine Tangos. (The title is a take off of the
Jim Carville's slogan in Bill Clinton's presidential campaign "It's the
economy, stupid.") It will be interesting to see if the editor prints
it.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Counting the days to the NY Tango Festival July 24-27.

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 18:25:00 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teaching Ballroom and Argentine Tangos

Tango Guy and friends,

The typical fraud, whether owing to 'business sense', to deceit or to
ignorance, is to teach that Argentine tango is a dance that can be
legitimately mimicked. It is insufficient to teach that the external forms
of Argentine tango are somewhat different from other dances. It is true but
a fraud of omission. That early phase of the learning process is merely
preparatory. It omits the detail that, oh by the way, this is a dance that
exists because it is an emotional response to a particular body of folk
music. It omits the detail that the dance, in combination with particular
poetry and music evokes a way of thinking that is a unique cultural
expression of a people. Minor details, those! At the risk of sounding
pedantic - which, you know, has never bothered me in the past! ;-) -
Ballroom &/or Int. Tango is the shell that remains after you take the
'Argentine' OUT of tango. Enjoy the pretty shell, but don't confuse an
empty shell with a lobster dinner.

Frank - Mpls.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango [mailto:TANGO-
> L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Tango Guy
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 3:53 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Teaching Ballroom and Argentine Tangos
>
> Michael; It would be a nice idea to solicit other Tango-L subscribers'
> experience and thoughts about Argentine Tango (AT) as taught by Ballroom
> teachers. These experiences could then be included in your USABDA article.
>
> One thing everyone needs to keep in mind is that there are many legitimate
> Ballroom teachers and dance studios who teach AT well and teach it
> correctly. One of my own AT teachers is also a Ballroom teacher and dancer
> as well as being a fine advanced AT dancer. There IS fraudulent teaching
> of AT that unfairly casts a bad light on legitimate Ballroom teachers and
> studios. But one needs to be careful of accusing anyone of fraud. There is
> a style of legitimate BT that gets called "Argentine Tango". It is the
> standard BT with AT-like steps and figures added. (Perhaps this needs to
> be called Argentine Style Ballroom Tango or something else less confusing.
> Any suggestions?) In addition, for a long time, before our own Argentine
> Tango became popular in the US, regular BT was often called "Argentine
> Tango" to emphasize the Argentine origin of Tango and not to deceive
> anyone. There is much confusion between these "Argentine Tangos" and
> fraudulent-hearted teachers are capitalizing on the
> current popularity of AT and on the confusion of the general public to
> make money. Both BT and AT teachers need to make sure their students
> understand the dangers and the differences so they are protected and not
> mislead.
>
> Warm Regards
> Tango Guy
>
>
>
> "Sa, Na-W, Na-C, Na-E, Misc" <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM> wrote:
> Barbara Garvey wrote about ballroom teachers who teach Argentine Tango
> and wonders about their teaching skills.
> I agree with you Barbara. I've seen some ballroom teachers teach AT as if
> it was a ballroom dance, NEVER mentioning close embrace or even lining up
> buttons to buttons. I laugh at their attempts to teach parada when the
> two partners are so far apart. Well, I'm getting my revenge on these
> imposters who teach AT.
>
> I've started writing a column for the United States Amateur Ballroom
> Dance Association's (USABDA) bi-monthly magazine. My next article is
> called "It's Argentine Tango, Stupid" which describes several differences
> between American and Argentine Tangos. (The title is a take off of the
> Jim Carville's slogan in Bill Clinton's presidential campaign "It's the
> economy, stupid.") It will be interesting to see if the editor prints
> it.
>
> Michael Ditkoff
> Washington, DC
> Counting the days to the NY Tango Festival July 24-27.
>
>

LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:58:15 -0400
From: "Sa, Na-W, Na-C, Na-E, Misc" <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching Ballroom and Argentine Tangos

Tango Guy:
The article has already been sent to the editor. It's way past the
deadline to make changes. Besides, I'm writing about MY observations. I'm
NOT attempting to be inclusive. The article emphasizes the differences
between the two dances (American vs. Argentine), not how it is taught.
The purpose is to let students know what to look for in Argentine style
and then question their teacher if (s)he never discusses the differences.
I laugh at ballroom teachers who don't mention proximity of the partners
and then watch them teach parada (stop) and mordita (sandwich) in open
position. The man has to reach so far for the woman's foot (and doesn't
even know where it is) it looks like he's stepping over a puddle.

No names of instructors are listed, but hopefully, they will see
themselves -- or their students will see them.

Michael
Washington, DC

On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:53:15 -0700 Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM>
writes:

> Michael; It would be a nice idea to solicit other Tango-L
> subscribers' experience and thoughts about Argentine Tango (AT) as
> taught by Ballroom teachers. These experiences could then be
> included in your USABDA article.
>

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:13:07 -0300
From: Juan Fabbri <JFabbri@TANGOCITY.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching Ballroom and Argentine Tangos

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Cg0K

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:57:32 -0700
From: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@OSBTOWN.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching Ballroom and Argentine Tangos

Hi Frank & everybody else,
Thank you for pretty much saying it all and saying it so well. We have
two ballroom professionals teaching "Argentine Tango," which they are at
best getting from videotapes, here in Sacramento and the results are not
pretty. People think I am overstating the case when I use the term fraud
but that's just what it seems like to me when those students discover our
classes. Professor Cookie-Cutter has, of course, certified to these
students that they are now intermediate level so they come into my
"Continuing" level class a bit full of themselves only to find that they
are totally unprepared. They have no posture, and I mean by that, that they
have no awareness of their own posture let alone what is correct and
necessary in Tango. They have not learned any walking technique, good, bad,
or indifferent. They have not learned to actually lead & follow each
movement, and lastly they have never learned to coordinate their movements
so that the couple moves together through each movement. Now they have
memorized a number of flashy stage oriented combinations which they cannot
demonstrate well enough for you to tell what they might have looked like to
begin with. We had one bunch of over a dozen come in and "audition" us
once. They wanted to watch our Continuing class and decide if they were
going to come and take it the next month. They didn't last through the
warm-up. We hadn't even made it to the material for the day and they had
already turned white and scurried off into the night. It was pitiful! They
have been paying for classes for months and they are loath to come to a
different studio and start over again at the bottom. The problem is that
they have no useful foundation for the dance, which includes an
appreciation for what the dance is, as you have so eloquently described
below, Frank. So as far as I'm concerned they have been defrauded, bilked,
ripped-off, their money taken under false pretenses in exchange for a sham
product. Caveat emptor!!!!
Ed

On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 18:25:00 -0500, you wrote:

>Tango Guy and friends,
>
>The typical fraud, whether owing to 'business sense', to deceit or to
>ignorance, is to teach that Argentine tango is a dance that can be
>legitimately mimicked. It is insufficient to teach that the external forms
>of Argentine tango are somewhat different from other dances. It is true but
>a fraud of omission. That early phase of the learning process is merely
>preparatory. It omits the detail that, oh by the way, this is a dance that
>exists because it is an emotional response to a particular body of folk
>music. It omits the detail that the dance, in combination with particular
>poetry and music evokes a way of thinking that is a unique cultural
>expression of a people. Minor details, those! At the risk of sounding
>pedantic - which, you know, has never bothered me in the past! ;-) -
>Ballroom &/or Int. Tango is the shell that remains after you take the
>'Argentine' OUT of tango. Enjoy the pretty shell, but don't confuse an
>empty shell with a lobster dinner.
>
>Frank - Mpls.

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:09:00 -0700
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Argentine tango revisited

This comment is a throwback to the discussion a little while ago about the
history and relationship between Ballroom and Argentine tango. I've been
sorting out papers and files and just came across Richard's Tango
Bibliography: Primary Sources with Tango Descriptions, chronological listing
to 1930. This bibliography which contains dance manuals, and magazine and
newspaper articles consists o 2/3 titles in English, quite a few in French
and a sprinkling in German, Italian and Spanish, with only one article
(1905) published in Argentina. Moreover Richard does not speak Spanish. So
unless his research has been greatly updated in the last 5 years or so, I
suggest that his expertise is concentrated on ballroom tango as understood
in Europe, the UK and the US.

There are very few documents describing tango as it was danced in the early
years in Argentina -- Richard cites Cuello "Baile de Moda" 1905 . This is
quoted in El Tango, by Horacio Salas: Cuello sees the dance at Carnaval,
"Only in these crazed days could it be tolerated"; he calls it libertine,
lascivious, voluptuous, with contorsions, unexpected postures, foot stamping
and rocking movements. The next well-known commentary is by the anonymous
Viejo Tanguero who wrote after tango had been influenced by its sojourn in
Europe. He indicates that the tango of the mid-teens was much smoother and
cleaned up than that of the turn of the century. So it is really hard to
know what differences and changes occured between 1908, when Guiraldes and
his friends took the tango they had learned in the slums of Buenos Aires to
Paris, but it seems obvious that ballroom tango somehow derived from
whatever was popular in early 1900s BA but with major changes, and the tango
brought back to the middle class salons of Buenos Aires bore little
relationship to its origins.

Therefore the question is not "which came first" -- obviously Argentine
tango came first but was transformed into "tango liso". But Cachafaz ' style
did not resemble ballroom tango at all. What I would deduce is that the
tango in its original poorer barrios and suburbs probably continued,
developing more slowly maintaining its vitality but adapting to tile, marble
or wood floor surfaces and gradually incorporating a bit of subtlety from
the folks uptown.

Ruben has access to much more research than I including early photos and
films -- perhaps he could weigh in.
Abrazos (and especially to you, Ruben)
Barbara

>